India Unvarnished

Friend#

Murad article in 4 days may not mean, that his upper chamber was empty before that.

As far as his credentials, I suppose he must be a knowledgeable person even before writing this.

You may be right He is a Muslim and in your world`s largest Demockeracy, he might have to introduce his wife as Hindu to prevent the wrath against Muslim in highly Demockeratic and Sequelar country.

Your stiking post and Gobar thoughts just are a validation of this.

Badbu Kam Karo Janwar.

Murad:

Point raised by Truth #: 91 is an interesting one. Do both of you (you and your wife) go around introducing each other as ``my hindu wife`` and ``my muslim husband``?

Regards

Murad:

What was the motivation behind referring to your ``Hindu wife``? Frankly, the religion of your wife is a personal matter between you and your wife . Its none of our concern. Here are two of my hypothesis as to why you mentioned it:

1. Demostrate your and your wife`s liberal bent or broadly the concept of inter-religious marriages in India.

2. Gain some cover from right wing Hindus who may attack you, somebody with a Muslim name, for challenging Hindu myths.

From all the posts on Chowk, I did not see any evidence of #2 with regard to your articles. So why the gratutious reference to your wife`s religion?

By the way, I am always happy to see people cross boundaries, be they imagined or real.

Before Mr Baig starts another writing spree, he is requested to also answer the queries raised in ``Accent in Kashmir`` article.

To be specific, I request his source on ``Mihirkula`s recent conversion to hinduism``.

Regards

Thank you Sadhna, you put it very eloquently.

Kabuli

w.r.t Reply #: 86 by Murad Baig/Chowk Staff

What a let-down Murad`s reply is?

[``The essay was written in just four days (with a few subsequent revisions) after a long discussion with one of my Hindutva friends. Both very Hindutva and good friend. Instead of arguing with him I patiently prodded and persuaded him to give full vent to his interpretation of India`s history complete with all it`s myths and prejudices.``]

This ``unemotional examination`` and ``an objective examination of many widely held opinions and myths about India and its history`` was written in just 4 days! without any peer review!! And author wants to shift the blame to Chowk staff to caught him unaware!!! If that is the case (that this was just a draft), Chowk`s editorial policy needs drastic improvement so that no draft version gets published and authors get proper lead time.

BTW, how noble is author to allow his friend to give ``full vent`` to his interpretation?

[``I had begun on these to try to deflate the sanctity attached to Varnas that are one of the main foundations of the caste system that I frankly detest.]

Author really believes that a 4 day effort is enough to do that?

Authors long irrelevant mumble about Jared Diamond`s Pulitzer prize winning `Guns, Germs and Steel`` didn`t add anything to the matter being discussed. Perhaps he will like to stick to the points and either withdraw them or provide proper references.

Regards

This is what our `intellectuals` have come to : `deflation`. If there is no more faith in faith, what remains in life but deflation. Let me use a more appropriate word `trivialization`. Meaning no personal disrespect, but it seems as if one single Hindutva(a political philosophy, finally) proponent and some conversations represent the end result of many thousand years of religious development and interplay in many millions of people`s lives. In such a situation even hectic air journeys influence the points one puts down in an apparent `search for truth`.

The Times Of India was better. When the Ganesha idol began drinking milk, they published an `unemotional` article explaining why it happened scientifically. There were no riots, there was no protest only acceptance because in the report there was no disrespect or trivialisation of the power of something as personal as religious belief and finally there is a general acceptance in the public that truth is truth.

I remember reading a article about the Western press coverage of the Ganesha incident. It seems that some in the West rued the loss of faith(not necessarily religious) as a personal and societal motivator. No, but we need their(the West`s) general and vocal acceptance for our own pursuits and philosophies, so maybe I need to furnish references and run a campaign for reviving of faith in the upcoming US Presidential elections, for it to be taken seriously by Indian intellectuals.

The Adi Shakaracharya said, faith and knowledge are like a blind man and a lame man respectively. The former cannot see the destination, the lame man can, but cannot get there without the former`s help. Lets see a recognition that though `salient` facts like Shankaracharya`s life period cannot be resolved even within the closest 100 years, the practice of Hindusim by its current followers does carry some nontrivial weight which doesnot require `deflation`, only clearing of the `underbrush`. Faith doesnot have to be traded in as an exchange for truth, not in Hinduism.

The author`s effectiveness in his noble pursuit of doing away with the power of myths is greatly hampered by his attitude. The caste system and many social evils associated for centuries with the practice of Hindusim can be done away with, and are indeed being done away with by many many others in India, with more effectiveness, sincerity and appreciation for the desired end result of reform than this author has demonstrated.

The efforts in these directions have encountered less resistance than would have been encountered had a majority of Indians really been `blinded` by myths. There are many groups in India who have been engaged in exposing the hollowness of superstitions for many years in street theatre and other media even state television and film. They are doing a better job of it, in my opinion, as did many of the Hindu reformers of this(the 20th) and the last century.

Sadhana

Response sent by Murad Baig


Dear friends at Chowk

Chowk caught me flat footed when they put up India Unvarnished that I had sent them to `read` many months ago. I was on a holiday with friends at a lovely place above Rishikesh when they decided to get married so my Hindu wife and I saw a lot of both the sacred and the profane of many temples in the Hardwar - Rishikesh area. Immediately thereafter I was flying to Detroit and San Francisco and had no time to respond to your many very interesting letters.

Some of your comments that my observations are sometimes simplistic and insufficiently supported are correct but please allow me to explain.

The essay was written in just four days (with a few subsequent revisions) after a long discussion with one of my Hindutva friends. Both very Hindutva and good friend. Instead of arguing with him I patiently prodded and persuaded him to give full vent to his interpretation of India`s history complete with all it`s myths and prejudices.

The next day I listed the main issues discussed and then proceeded to evaluate their merits. When I filled in the responses to each question my main objective was to puncture some of the prejudices rather than attempt to write a whole new interpretation of India`s history. I have no problem with myths that per se are fine but many unfortunately support destructive prejudices that lead to strife, anger and bitterness.

This explains why `Unvarnished` is a bit slanted towards deflating Hindu myths and prejudice and I would be very happy to join all of you to widen its scope to cover all religions and races. Perhaps we should reposition it into `Hindustan Unvarnished` to cover all people in our lovely but troubled sub-continent.

So far Chowk has put up the first 10 of the 65 questions. Too much discussion seems to have focussed on the first 5 questions concerning race and colour. I had begun on these to try to deflate the sanctity attached to Varnas that are one of the main foundations of the caste system that I frankly detest. It not only affects Hindus but insidiously conditions Muslims, Christians and others as well and is I believe one of the major anchors holding back our progress.

On this subject, however, I have just been reading Jared Diamond`s Pulitzer prize winning `Guns, Germs and Steel that covers `the fates of human societies` from the end of the last and 23rd Ice Age 13,000 years ago. I was 27 hours in the air and at airports returning from San Francisco to Delhi via Detroit and Amsterdam. He well argues that 95% of human history occurred in the Stone Age but that 99% of the history as taught took place in later times.

It is a very good read and gives some interesting data to support these dates:

5 - 9 million years BC - development of humanoids In Africa.

1.5 - 3 million BC - emergence of Homo Erectus (HE) in Africa.

1 million BC movement of HE out of Africa through Asia.

500,000 BC movement of HE to Europe.

50,000 BC Cro Magnon or Modern Man (MM) suddenly almost completely replaces HE at the beginning of the last Ice Age.

40,000 BC MM reaches Australia and 33,000 reaches New Guinea.

20,000 BC MM develops technologies to survive Arctic climates and goes North.

12,000 BC MM reach America. (Some earlier dates are queried)

Diamond convincingly explains many interesting features of human development from small tribal bands to larger tribes to still larger chiefdoms to big states. It is interesting how tribal societies were egalitarian and too preoccupied with their hunting/ gathering to ever be able to sustain a war and aggression. With agriculture, larger settlements with full time managers as Kings and their full time soldiers could develop better killing technologies and overwhelm tribal communities.

Published by W. W. Norton. $15.95. Check it out.

Back to Unvarnished.

I was able to do such a quick Q&A because I have been working on and off for the past 9 years on a book tentatively titled `Reflections in a Sacred Pond` that now is 120,000 words long so many of the points were fresh in my mind.

My sources are from the list with you but I do need to spend a lot of tedious time for the gritty bit of putting exact references that I know will be necessary.

I will soon address many of your individual points.

Why not all collaborate to agree/disagree point by point and add more points so we can all make a great book out of this hasty essay.

With best wishes

Regards

Murad

KabuliWallah #83

Its other name is Surah Bani Israel 17:

``Glory be to Him, Who transported His servant one night from Masjidul-Haram to the distant temple (Masjid Aqsa in Arabic), whose surroundings We have blessed, so that We might show him some of our Signs: the fact is that He alone is All-hearing and all-seeing`` 17:1

You are right, that there is no mention of ascetion here. And rest is probably from Hadith.

But as I told you there are numerous sects in Islam because of Hadith, if it were not there would be innumerable sects. Considering the richness of Arabic language with one word conveying many meaning and many interpretations, taking Koran in isolation will lead to innumerable sects.

Moreover Hadith or history is important (to a certain extent) because there is some purpose to it. If not why not the whole Koran came at once telling people ``Look this is your guide from God, so act according to it.``

In Islamic thoughts if there as fundamentalists like Wahhabi, there are people who rationalize. Sir Syed Ahmed Khan was a great rationalizer of Koran. To some extent Maulana Mowdudi is also.

What is the truth nobody knows.

I believe in this Ayah as the essense of Islam that Whether it be jew of christian or Sabi (More like Pankaj) whoever believes in God (one) and do good will have his reward from God.

Moreover, there is a Shariat, called Shariat Mohammedi. But Muslims, Christians, Jews believing in one God have been called Muslims in Koran. Like Abraham was a true Muslim and did not made partners with God.

Anyway since you seem aware little bit about this so I posted this boring discussion.

Moreover God is neither Muslim, nor Christian nor Jewish but God of all creatures but Muslims have Islamized God, Christians have baptised Him and Jews have Jewised (I don`t know correct form) Him.

In reply to Pankaj : I`m a physicist and electronics engineer by education, a software systems analyst by current profession, and not old enough to be senile.

All I`m saying about genes and environmental effects in the expression of any but the simplest of traits is that it is a complex function of both -- f(genes, environment) cannot be broken simply into h(genes) * k(environment).

-arun gupta

re: krashid #79

Sorry, for the late reply, I was touring Delhi

The reason that I said what I said is Prof. Haq, the professor of religion in Rutgers Univeristy. He is a very learned man and respected by most people at the university. If I`m not mistaken, he said that there is no evidence of the ascension in the Quran. I took his word at face value. Unfortunately, I left my copy of the Quran at my home in the US and so I`ll have to wait till I get to a library to look up surah Israa.

As for me, I`d rather look for clues in the Quran than go search for history in the Hadith, but thats me. I`d only use the Hadith as a support for my views in arguments with my opponents . The only problem being there`d probably be hadith to support me as well as my opponent.

Kabuli

Re to Mac Gupta

A small correction on second reading. It is the ``quota`` of traits say height that is determined by genetics,ie maximum as well as minimum value. So genetics of an average Japanese dictate his height to be between say 4.5 to 7 ft. His actual height may be the result of ``nutrition `` factors which govern the actual realisation of the potential. Upon your objection that it is a simplistic and ``decoupled`` model, I I agree that some coupling of these both factors may not be denied but the extent of coupling can only be determined by the sort of experiments I described in the last post. Anyway I found this simple model to be quite helpful in explaining various observations.Also the range of quota may again give us relative importance of genetic factors Vs ``nutrition`` factors. One check on the model: Monozygotic twins(or clones) sharing the same genotype can be grown in different enviro and be administered different levels of hypothesised ``nutrition`` factors to get the quantitative parameters for the model. Let me reiterate that such a sort of model is currently accepted only with respect to IQ and this is only an attempt to generalise the basic idea which may or may not hold for other things.

Cheers

Re: Krash-Id

Why do you always seem to be suffering from PMS? In all posts, all topics, and all the time. Just chill out man...have a drink if it helps you.

Re MacGupta

I am also interested in knowing your own theory to explain all the available facts on human traits. BTW will I be intruding your privacy if I ask your profession, education and age. :)

Cheers

KabuliWallah #74

I agree with you on the matter of Hadith.

For me it is only a historical source, with maximim possible authenticity that can be achieved after 3 or 4 generations regarding methods of collection of Hadith.

Now why I see it in this context is simple. It is an important source to understand application of Koran and their meaning. Considering the general terms and ways used in Koran it can be interpreted in any way. With Hadith there are some 70 sects in Islam, without Hadith there would be 700,000 sects or more.

Keeping this discussion aside.

In Surah Israa (I forgot its other name), the ascention is given.

And as I said, there are no other reliable historical resources except Hadith and some early history, which substantiate it by the events of like Prophet PBUH told about the caravan in its way or about Masjid-e-Aqsa.

That is why I asked you what source are you utilizing.

Re to MacGupta

``1. How do you determine the ``height limit`` from the existing anthropometric data ?

2. Suppose it turns out that the encoding in the genes for height is simply the timetable for the turning on and off of production of Human Growth Hormone. So, for example, in Japanese, compared to Europeans, children produce less HGF per unit body weight, and hence ultimately end up shorter. If Human Growth Hormone, which we know how to manufacture, is administered, i.e., it is part of the environment, then what happens to the genetic ``height limit`` ? ``

First let me deal with your second question. Essentially your statement that the genes might contain the timetable for turning on or off the HGF, conveys the same info as my theory. There must be some environmental ``nutrition`` agents that govern the duration of opening of this switch else how can you account for the change in avg height with improvement in ``nutrition`` factors. However if HGF is administered externally then the closed system,`` genes+ environment`` we were analysing, changes, and a third external factor has to be considered. I guess the genetic height limit would still be the same but the additional growth in height has to be attributed to this administering of the HGF. Thus the height limit can be dictated by genetics only till any other foreign factor does not pop in.

Now I come to your first question. I think after the functionality of each gene and their mutual interaction in the human genome is established, the future research can either prove or disprove it. For example, you can clone a human, grow him up in a different controlled enviro and measure the difference between both humans regarding their various traits. Such kind of experiments can give us valuable insights into the interaction of enviro with the genetics to produce a complex human being and assess the relative contribution of each.