India Unvarnished

I had the opportunity of reading this very good article of Mr. Murad Baig. I have written a Blog in the following site similar to this:-
http://mbahmed786.indiainteracts.com/2008/05/27/the-debate-on-the-period -in-which-lord-rama-lived/

Following are the contents of the blog:-

The debate on the Period in which Lord Rama Lived

I happened to read the article written by Dr. Satya Pal Singh, Commissioner of Police, Nagpur in the Rediff.com posted on 14th April 2008 on “Proving the historicity of Ram�. ( http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/apr/14guest.htm )

At the outset the article written by him is completely biased and is neither scientific nor rational. It is not understood as to how a senior IPS officer, has devoted so much of time in writing this article, inspite of his pressing duties as a Commissioner of Police of a big city like Nagpur. If his approach is biased like this then what will be the fate of the inquiries that are being dealt by him is a big question. Definitely all the cases dealt by him must not have had a fair dealing.

No one in this country ,irrespective of religion, caste or creed have ever questioned the existence of Lord Ram. At times due to some compulsions some leaders would have challenged. It is difficult to prove the events that have been narrated in the Epics. At the same time, there is every likelihood of the events being exaggerated. Once in a debate between Arignar Anna and Professor R.P.Sethu Pillai, the former had questioned about certain remarks made by Kambar in the Kamba Ramayanam. For this, Prof. Sethu Pillai had politely replied that while narrating it in a poetic or literary form, some imagination has been made and that should not be taken for challenging the very existence of the Characters mentioned in the work. In the same way the message narrated in the Great epics must be taken and instead trying to justify the Historicity of Ram on the basis of what has been mentioned in the Epics will not work out to be correct.

Dr Satya Pal Singh has tried hard to prove that Lord Ram lived sometime between 18,149,108 and 869,108 years ago. For this he is also blaming the Western historians and Anthropologists for their biased approach. It is realy unimaginable that Lord Ram lived such long back. Even for argument sake if we accept that he lived during that period, how is it that no other evidence is available. After the happenings of Ramayan between 18,149,108 and 869,108 and the Mahabarath sometime later, as per Dr. Satya Pal Singh, no other incidents have taken place for so many tens of thousands of years till the last 5000BC, which have not been recorded at all. Does he mean that no important events took place in the intervening period.

It is nothing but making fools of ourselves. It is not understood why a section of the people, are not accepting the reality. The people who are floating this theory want to suppress the facts that the Aryans had invaded India from the Central Asia and had overrun the Indus Valley Civilisation. As the existing Civilisation was much superior, they have started to float the theories that Lord Ram lived long back. If we are to accept the theory floated by Dr. Satya Pal Singh then the Geography of the Indian Sub-continent itself has to be changed. He himself accepts due to the long lapse of time there could be so many changes. Definitely the Geographical/Geological features would not have been the same as it is now or a few thousand years ago. It would have been drastically different lakhs of years ago. After the recent Tsunami in 2004, the coastline is said to have changed. There are ample proof that parts of Poompuhar and Mahabalipuram have been submerged in the sea a few hundred years ago. The Adams Bridge or the Ramar Sethu is just a few hundred kilometers from the Poompuhar coast. When Poompuhar has been subjected to sea incursions, we cannot say what all would have happened to the Adams Bridge or the Ramar Sethu over the years. So if we accept the hypotheses of Dr. Satya Pal Singh, then to say that Lord Ram was born at the present Ayodhya and he constructed the Adams Bridge or the Ramar Sethu, is not at all acceptable.

It is a fact that till the First Millennium BC, the languages in the Indian Sub-continent were not being written. In a bid to usurp the creativity of the Indus Valley Civilisation, such theories are being floated, time and again.The language/s spoken by the people of the Indus Valley Civilisation had a script but has nothing to do with the Aryans. As the original occupants were conquered/driven away, they had lost touch of their language and the place. It has been scientifically proved that Brahui - the language spoken in the present Pakistan is the remnant of the Indus Valley Civilisation and is a Dravidian Language. Further, the Aryans as per their Vedas were the worshippers of the Nature and it only after they had come to India they have adopted worship of the Idols and images. In the Indus Valley, Idols and Image worshipping has been reported. Another factor is that the dead were being burried as per the customs of the Indus Valley Civilisation. Whereas the Aryans burn their dead. Thus these facts itself is sufficient to prove that it was not an Aryan Civilisation. M/s. Jha and Rajaram tried hard to prove that it is an Aryan Civilisation by fabricating but have been exposed. Like that Dr. Satya Pal Singh wants to claim what is not a fact. Luckily most parts of the Indus Valley Civilisation are now in Pakistan, otherwise, it would have seen the same fate of the Babri Masjid and people like Dr. Satya Pal Singh may later say that no such Civilisation was there at all.

It is a fact that India has been invaded by the Muslims, Huns, Mughals and the Britishers . None have denied it. Similarly it is also a fact that the Aryans are originaly from the Central Asia, have come down and settled in India. They are the first amongst the outsiders to come to India.

Lord Rama had set an example as to how as a Human being one should live and as to how a King should rule. Let us follow it. But at the same time let us accept the fact that the Ramayan and Mahabarath took place between 1500 BC and 500 BC. As true Indians let us propogate the ideals taught by the Great mortals and not make them as a mark of controversy.

Does the Ramayana have any historic basis?

Some of the comments are pure stupid...
In Ramayana, the journey was eastwards from Ayoudhya. How come Caspian sea etc...coming into picture...It was purely Indian stuff...
The aryan/dravidian concept is formulated by Max Mueller. No literature/historic document proves it.

The intolerance of Hindu fanatics on this article is enough of a reason to read this article carefuly and with an open mind.

Hi,
I know i have joined chowk too late to commet on this spurious and motivated article.
Obviously hiding behind all those ``high`` references is a wolf in ``sheepskin``.
The Bias is so transparent ..one sometimes wonders WHY most paki sites host ``sponsored`` articles. This is akin to lifafa journos penniing articles glorifying all things official ..back in Pakistan.
The most surprising thing was it was chowk staff and not the author who furnished the list of references when one of the first few replies asked him to furnish those.
Why ``chowk staff`` and NOT the author?
The ``chowk support`` is so transparently obvious!
Other sites such as satribune.com (now defunct) were worse.
One such site www.pakistanidefenceforum.com invariably has articles with ``no bhindies please`` appended to them in the end!
``head in sand`` and dada-giri in one form or another coupled with fowl language, low intellectual standards, and hate mongering of all and sundry are the ``hall-marks`` of most pakistani related sites, i have seen on the web.
This is one is an exception to soem extent, but ``official sponsoring`` of this article either points to misheivous intent, or out right hate for all things indian!
Jayen

Hi,
I know i have joined chowk too late to commet on this spurious and motivated article.
Obviously hiding behind all those ``high`` references is a wolf in ``sheepskin``.
The Bias is so transparent ..one sometimes wonders WHY most paki sites host ``sponsored`` articles. This is akin to lifafa journos penniing articles glorifying all things official ..back in Pakistan.
The most surprising thing was it was chowk staff and not the author who furnished the list of references when one of the first few replies asked him to furnish those.
Why ``chowk staff`` and NOT the author?
The ``chowk support`` is so transparently obvious!
Other sites such as satribune.com (now defunct) were worse.
One such site www.pakistanidefenceforum.com invariably has articles with ``no bhindies please`` appended to them in the end!
``head in sand`` and dada-giri in one form or another coupled with fowl language, low intellectual standards, and hate mongering of all and sundry are the ``hall-marks`` of most pakistani related sites, i have seen on the web.
This is one is an exception to soem extent, but ``official sponsoring`` of this article either points to misheivous intent, or out right hat for all things indian!
Jayen

this article desreves to be laughed out of a first year undergraduate class.

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Chowkwallas ,

Could someone explain why ``India Unvarnished`` which I had the pleasure of reading last night is a permanently featured item on chowk ? Never mind sweeping comments like ``In response to most Indians craving for self-praise`` it is a serious distortion of south asian history. It really deserves to be languishing in some forgotten corner of chowk archives. If you have to feature it I would suggest another feature right next to it that presents a differing view ... or even a ``Pakistan Unvarnished``. Maybe have another area of chowk called Itihaas where differing views of history may be debated ?

I really believe giving preferential status to this article is counter to chowks objective to be a place for impartial debate and dialogue.

India is a great country,before critisising India

think about treatment to Muslims of Indian orugen

Nothing new here. It`s just the same old ghisa-peeta record we have been hearing since Class V History.

It`s amusing how these leftist historians actually fall for their own spiel: I can`t believe ALL of them are misguided Hindu-haters, it`s got to be more than that. Why fall over backwards talking about Aryan invasions and barbaric Brahmin practices and subjugation of lower castes and disrespect for other religions, when EVERY religion is rooted in the same kind of hatred and animosity?

Sure, talk about it.... but why expect modern-day Indians to feel ashamed of their heritage? (the reference to ``Hindu fanatics`` and the BJP are totally unwarranted, if the piece is purely about history). I seriously believe the Americans and Britishers need be a lot more ``ashamed`` of their history: America actively followed a segregation policy till as recently as the 60s while Britain shamelessly subjugated and looted millions of people across the world under the pretence of being a proud seafaring nation. Obviously they have mended their ways and don`t feel the need to apologize for it. Neither do we. If I am proud of my heritage, it is with the sound knowledge that most discoveries: scientific, mathematical and philosophical originated in what we now call the Indian subcontinent before they were shamelessly plagiarised by people from the West who had better PR mechanisms than us in those days. It`s not that different from an Egyptian or a Greek feeling proud of his own culture.

Anyway, sorry for digressing. Next time, try something new....

Sulekha

Dear Mr Baig,

First of all let me thank you for putting so much of thoughts on Indian History and Hinduism.

When we started reading the article we thought it is some fundamentalist who trying to justify why

one religion is better than other. We were shocked to see a professional with work experience in large MNCs was the person behind this.

It is very easy and belive me exciting to run down anything in this world ,it maybe some religion,philosphy etc. Whatever you may be saying will certainly prove your worth in certain section of society but as an Indian it really is shocking that you are releasing such articles on

Websites not exactly in love with India.

This is the same India which gave you food ,shelter and education. If you are so sure

about your findings, you should immediately return your Masters Degree from Indian University and should be shameful of working in India with Indians.

We would have appreciated a balanced view from a professional of your stature.

You started with the Title : ``India Unvarnished`` appropriate title should have been`` Mr Baig Unvarnished``.

Jai Hind

Sidharth & Friends

I have read a lot of auto reviews by Murad Baig and have found him to be very articulate and well informed. I was there fore shocked and pained by his analysis of India and the culture. That he is a Masters in History makes this analysis and probably his understanding very shallow. I guess he has let his religious views and sentiments overtake logic and knowledge that is required to make a impartial analysis of Indian culture. This looks more like an effort to tarnish our culture than an effort to put it in the right space. And starting his article by saying we as Indians do not appreciate anything negative being said about our culture itself indicates his real intentions

I hope that chowk will remove this offending and insensitive article from its site

Mr. Murad:

You must throw the yoke of islam off your shoulders. Arabs were the first victims of Islam. Then they forced in on to the Turks, Iranians and the South Asians. Forced proselytisation results in a complete loss of self esteem and alieniation from one`s own heritage and culture.

You must evaulate your religion in light of the following works:

By ``Ibn Warraq,`` A Pakistani writing under a pseudoname

``Why I am not a Muslim,``

Quest for historical Muhammad

The Origins of the Koran : Classic Essays on

Islam`s Holy Book

Please read by Bassam Tibi:

``he Challenge of Fundamentalism : Political

Islam and the New World Disorder (Comparative

Studies in Religion and Society, No 9)``

Arab Nationalism : Between Islam and the

Nation-State

Islam: The Arab Imperialist Movement, Anwar Shaikh

1. Was India one of the oldest civilisations?

``India`s civilisation was not as old as the civilisations of Egypt or Babylon that

had far more advanced urban habitations with sophisticated arts and culture by

3,100 BC.``

This assertion is just false!

Obiviously our friend has not kept abreast of the latest researches on the Indus Valley Civilization. The Aryan Invasion theory has been discredited. It was a fabrication of 19th century colonial historians. The recent literary and archaeological evidence does not support any invasion of the so called ``blond blue eyed Arayans.`` The Indus Valley civilization decline because of geological changes and mainly due the drying up of the Sarasvati river, a mighty river that flowed from the Himalayas into Ran of Kutch. There is a whole body of literature on this subject. For starters please consult:

Books:

Ancient Cities of the Indus Valley Civilization by J. M Kenoyer

Vedic ``Aryans`` and the Origins of Civilization: A Literary and

Scientific Perspective, Rajaram, Frawley

In Search of the Cradle of Civilization : New Light on Ancient India,

Feurestein, Kak, Frawley

Quest for the Origins of Vedic Culture : In Quest of the Origins of

Vedic Culture, Edwin Bryant

Most of these new research findings are also freely available on the Internet

http://www.4essays.com/essays/ARYAN_IN.HTM

http://www.sol.com.au/kor/16_01.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/6015/frames.html

For a complete bibliography on this subject please visit

http://icg.harvard.edu/

The best answer to your article Murad is given in the following link. You amaze me with your ignorance! I hope this article will open your eyes to what is real out there.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ibn_al-rawandi/review.html

I suggest that the author visit this great site on Hinduism and Indian Culture and history, before writing any `unemotional stuff.`

A Tribute to Hinduism.

http://www.atributetohinduism.com

Hello Mr.Murad,

you have done a wonderful job with this article, no doubt about it. but I strongly feel your predjuidice being a muslim towards hinduism and India. Let me clarify why? as per your theory, you claim Avesta being superior than vedas. Definately Zorasthrians and Hindus are two branches evolved from a common group but I am sure the philosophy behind hinduism is much superior to zorathrians since their philosophy didn`t survive that long. they were never able to convince other races to follow them or never produced any other superior faith. Finally they disappeared or userped by islam. THis always happens to a weak religion. contrary to that, Hinduism not only gave birth to other religions like budhism, Jainism, sikhism etc. It was able to flourish inspite of suffering for decades under islam. Arabs learned off and on, again and again and passed on the knowledge to westeners. Islam itself is a step child of Judaism and created to fill the vaccum left by Zorasthrian on the east and christianity on the west. Tell me what was left to these nomads of desert. So, Muhamed carefully drafted a copy of old testament with in the name of islam and started a rampage to convert all the kafirs as you may call under the name of god.

India over the centuries accomodated all sorts of people starting from aryans to parthians, schithians, bactrian,shakas,huns or mongols. All of them slowly got absorbed by indian society except Islam. only because they came with a religion that they wanted to enforce on the local people with much superior philosphy. another things is that indians were never interested in expanding their territory beyound pamirs as they they what lies beyond that. Also they had some soft corner that prevented them from routing their enemies otherwise prithviraj would have killed Gajni. All these kindness were carefully exploited by the invaders enable them to rule this country. being an indian you should have shown less prijuidice towards islam.

Thanks,

Jai Hind

This is a test!!

This article makes many false claims with the futile intention of tarnishing India`s image.

Besides providing a long list of books(most of the books are outdated) in the bibliography section - the article doesn`t contain any information from these books.

There are no evidences or proofs provided by the author.

Increasing number of scientists are accepting Vedic civilization as the oldest. The missing chapters of Egyptian civilization and the World History are now available.

In order that one gets one`s facts right read the following books that provide a undeniable list of facts with evidences. Decide for yourself.

Proof of Vedic Culture`s Global Existence

by Stephen Knapp

Paperback - 353 pages (October 2000)

World Relief Network; ISBN: 0961741066

The Search of the Cradle of Civilization: New Light on Ancient India

by Georg Feuerstein, Subhash Kak (Contributor), David Frawley (Contributor)

Hardcover (October 1995)

Unknown; ISBN: 0835607208 ; Dimensions (in inches): 1.21 x 9.34 x 6.

India Once Ruled the Americas

by Gene D. Matlock

Paperback - 200 pages (December 2000)

Writer`s Showcase Press; ISBN: 0595134688 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.54 x 8.96 x 5.98

The Celestial Key to the Vedas: Discovering the Origins of the World`s Oldest Civilization

by B. G. Sidharth

Paperback - 192 pages (October 1999)

Inner Traditions Intl Ltd; ISBN: 0892817534 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.54 x 9.02 x 5.93

Vimana Aircraft of Ancient India and Atlantis (Lost Science Series)

by David Hatcher Childress, Ivan T. Sanderson (Introduction)

Paperback (January 1992)

Adventures Unlimited Pr; ISBN: 0932813127 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.72 x 9.01 x 6.04

Vedic ``Aryans`` and the Origins of Civilization: A Literary and Scientific Perspective

by Navaratna S. Rajaram, David Frawley

Paperback (August 15, 1995)

World Heritage Press; ISBN: 1896064000

Ancient Cities of the Indus Valley Civilization

by Jonathan Mark Kenoyer

Paperback - 264 pages (December 1998)

Oxford Univ Press; ISBN: 0195779401 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.99 x 11.08 x 9.12

Vedic Physics

by Raja Ram Mohan, Ph.D. Roy, Raja Mohan, Ph.D. Roy, Subhash Kak, Raja Ram Mohan Roy

Paperback - 268 pages (March 5, 1999)

Golden Egg Publishing; ISBN: 0968412009 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.65 x 8.51 x 5.57

Chaotic Universe : From the Planck to the Hubble Scale (Contemporary Fundamental Physics)

Hardcover (May 2001)

Nova Science Publishers, Inc.; ISBN: 1560729775

Politics of History, Aryan Invasion Theory and the Subversion of Scholarship

by Navaratna S. Rajaram

Paperback - 244 pages 1 edition (March 1, 1995)

South Asia Books; ISBN: 818599028X

vedic Symbolism

by Sri Aurobindo, Sri M. P. Pandit (Compiler), M. P. Pandit (Compiler), Aurobindo Ghose

Paperback - 122 pages 1 edition (December 1998)

Lotus Press; ISBN: 0941524302 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.37 x 8.54 x 5.46

Yishvara 2000 : The Hindu Ancestor of Judaism Speaks to This Millennium

by Gene D. Matlock

Paperback - 208 pages (January 2001)

iUniverse.com; ISBN: 0595150128 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.55 x 9.02 x 5.98

Jesus and Moses Are Buried in India, Birthplace of Abraham and the Hebrews

by Gene D. Matlock

Paperback - 444 pages (November 2000)

iUniverse.com; ISBN: 0595127711 ; Dimensions (in inches): 1.15 x 9.04 x 6.07

Vedic Physics

by Raja Ram Mohan, Ph.D. Roy, Raja Mohan, Ph.D. Roy, Subhash Kak, Raja Ram Mohan Roy

Paperback - 268 pages (March 5, 1999)

Golden Egg Publishing; ISBN: 0968412009 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.65 x 8.51 x 5.57

The Vedic Prophecies: A New Look into the Future

by Stephen Knapp

Paperback - 240 pages (April 1, 1998)

World Relief Network; ISBN: 096174104X

Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy

by Richard L. Thompson

Paperback - 251 pages (November 1989)

Bhaktivedanta Book Trust; ISBN: 0892132698

In this case the books are written by scientists and indologists and not charlatans like Murad Ali Baig.

ONE OF THOSE FUTILE PAKISTANI ATTEMPTS TO TARNISH THE IMAGE OF INDIA

The author has made a major blunder.(He even looks like a seasoned fool)

In his futile attempt of tarnishing India`s image he has forgotten some key points.

1.Until recently India consisted of pakistan,afghanisthan, the South-east Asia and varous parts of asia.

2.Further back in history there are evidences that India or Bharat was spread out over all the continents. Nearly the entire globe was Bharat.

3.The Vedic culture( that has been ridiculed here) had a Global existence.

4. Everyone by default was a Santana Dharmic.

5. Last but not the least none of his answers to the 65 odd questions are conclusive or have valid arguments leave alone any evidences to support it. Infact most of them don`t address the question itself but in turn just beats around the bush. The intention of the author seems not to convince the readers but to cheat them by confusing them.

Lastly, the writeup is just a piece of CRAP.

I doubt the sanity of the person who have/or would trust in what the author has said.

The author (under the guidance of the Pakistan authorities) have concocted a 38 page misinterpretation of India. The two unnecessary references of Pakistan is intentional. T

he article is just another one of the Pakistan Moral boosters. Pakistan doesn`t have a history - all the history it made in the past fifty years were regarding to two lost wars and terrorism.

The article contains only misinterpreted comments - no actual research findings, details a list of rumours than actual facts, a listing of sources wherefrom nothing was taken - it all came from his vivid imagination.

The author speaks about Aurangzeb and his taxes - he ignores the valour of the Maratha against Aurangzeb.

To quote the author

``The only Krishna in the Rigveda was no god but the leader of the Rakshashas and the armies of dark Dasyus who Indra slew and skinned.``

First of all no one ever claimed the mention Krishna in the Rig Veda. Krishna was never supposed to have an army of dark Dasyus - he had an army of Yadavas(they weren`t dark in any respect). The author is a fool to the highest extent - he doesn`t understand the chronological order of the Rig veda(first) and then the Mahabharata.

A rational human can easily see through the deliberate attempt of the author to tarnish Krishna.

This is exemplary enough to underline the fact that the author is a `MUDHA` who has satisfied the dumb Pakis and thus has earned the pathos of the Indian people.

Pity the Pakis cannot hold back their jealousy for India. Failed were the attempts of 2 wars, failed were the decades of terrorism, now they have supposedly employed a mouthpiece(supposed to be an Indian) who thinks can put a unemotional argument - but instead it turns out to be emotional one for him - He and his Paki Counterparts sit crying gaping onwards the barbaric land they call PAKISTAN

I quote :

``Two hundred years later, the celebrated Al-Bukhari, a devout Muslim scholar, travelled the Muslim world to write most of the Hadith or the sayings and examples from the prophet`s life, that now forms a part of the Koran. ``(Q56)



Never before have I seen such a blatant lie about islam being uttered by a person donning a muslim name. It is preposterous to label hadith as part of the Koran. Hadith is distinct from the koran as they were the words or actions of the prophet, and the Koran is purely the words of divine reveletion. Perhaps this writer, having done so much research should have consulted a 10 year old muslim, and easily avoided making this mis statement.

ALso , i quote :

``There had been several versions of the utterances of the prophet during the 23 years after he received the revelation from Gabriel.``(Q56)

Please, for God`s sake, get a life! several different versions of utterances of the prophet. Again, the writer is deliberately trying to blurr the distinction between hadith, and quran. THERE WERE NO DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF THE QURAN, as the prophet himself had supervised the compilations, but making his companions MEMORIZE, WORD for WORD, LETTER FOR LETTER, the entire quran. In the time of Usman, (caliph), he merely had the entire quran written in one book form.

Zaid bin Harith compiled Hadith, NOT the quran. THe process described in the writer`s ill informed writing was pertaining to hadith. There has been no doctoring of the quran, being a fundamental beleif of islam, that Quran shall never be doctored.

I advise Chowk.com to PLEASE approach knowledgable writers to write on issues of religion... not quasi-intelligent species like the writer here

Murad Ali Baig #

Your observation on Indian open society and Pakistan closed society may be right.

But can you consider the little effect of education on us educated jahils Pakiustanis.

And large effect of education on BROAD minded Indians.

At least give credit to Pakistanis that they are sincere in whatever they belief and education has not produced bigotry to a large extent.

wassalam!

The following response is from Murad Baig


Since my last reply on October 17th, there have been 22 responses. Most have been uncomplimentary and a few quite appreciative.

In `Unvarnished’, I had tried not to be dogmatic and had mainly attempted to make readers look out of the box of conventional history and folklore to consider many alternatives to the popular and sometimes dubious ideas about the Indian subcontinent’s varied past. I have sought to question these rather than assert that another point of view was correct.

I am VERY WILLING to stand corrected on any point where I may be in error. Actually the voluminous responses have often been very instructive and I will readily incorporate many corrections in my long overdue next draft.

Pullu may have a point in saying that the conclusions in this essay indicate a strong debt to Persia. Actually the full story of Persia’s huge contribution to the irrigation, buildings, arts, music, food, literature, language and culture of the Indian subcontinent has never been written. It hugely influenced not only India but also Arabia and West Asia.

Actually, but for the accident of Muhammad being born in Arabia, most of the wealth of its so-called Islamic culture were the contributions of the older civilisations of Babylon, Persia and Egypt. Even Sufiism predates Islam as the Persian `Sophists’ had been around even in Alexander’s time. Later they added many spiritual spins to orthodox Islam.

The Indian subcontinent has been subject to these and many other influences and has absorbed them to make them part of its own evolving ethos. Very little is absolutely original in any society and every country, including the aforementioned ones, develops its own elaborations that gradually becomes a part of its own culture. We can all be proud of our creations and need have no shame if some of the roots began elsewhere.

It is also true that there is some element of Brahmin bashing. But this is not anything personal against the Brahmins as a caste for they have also been praised as the keepers of knowledge and who have had a huge role in the shaping of our ethos. Positively they made major contributions to philosophy, literature and intellect. But it cannot be denied that they also erected and maintained an abhorrent caste system that was to be the downfall of the country.

I do not agree that the indigenous people of India were automatically Hindu. I believe that the earliest people in India, as in all lands, had no `religion’. They were then, as many I have met in the mountains and forests of India still are, simple worshippers of animistic spirits of mountains, rocks, streams, trees, etc. Deities with many local names. No priests no religion.

`Hinduism’ as a `religion’ needed Brahmin priests, the caste system, Vedic verses and rituals. And these too changed through the ages. Vedic deities like Indra and Nesatyas were superceded by the Puranic deities of Shiv and Vishnu that emerged in the declining years of Buddhism while the worship of Ram and Krishna only emerged during the declining years of Mughal rule.

Dharma, karma, himsa, ahimsa, etc., may be Sanskrit words but Sanskrit like all languages took loan words from and gave loan words to other earlier and later languages. Many self-proclaimed champions of India’s culture are surprisingly ignorant about India’s real Sanskriti. Many who complacently believe that Sanskrit is the mother of all languages would be horrified to know that before modern Sanskrit codified by Panini in the 4th century BC, there were still older Sanskrit languages that were the daughters of an even more ancient language similar to an extinct old Persian.

They would be shocked to learn that Devanagri, the script of modern Sanskrit, was India’s fifth script and that the earliest sacred writings were in Khoroshti that, like Persian was written from right to left. Then came Brahmi lipi. The oldest text in classical Sanskrit dates to Rudradaman, after the time of Christ, or four centuries after Ashoka’s inscriptions in Pali. Devanagri itself seems to have come from south India and had probably evolved from the older Akkadian and Sumerian cuneiform of ancient Babylon.

Language, culture, traditions and religion have never been constant. Even the word Hindu was not originally the name of a religion but just a geographical expression coined by the Persians to describe their 19th province of western India. All people living beyond the Indus or Sindhu were described as Hindu. By this definition every Pakistani, Indian and Bangladeshi is Hindu.

It was no different with Christianity or Islam that evolved over the generations and had many good and bad champions. These revealed religions and their champions have much to be proud of and ashamed of as well. These were evangalistic religions that strived to convert those who they considered unbelievers who needed to be saved from idolatory and ignorance. The pity is that some chauvinist Hindus today want to imitate their intolerance and aggressive evangalism.

I have never said that Hindus are weak/corrupt and that Muslims are smart/honest. No race or religion is good/bad per se and there are many examples of either. And I have no desire to go to Pakistani as I feel, despite many imperfections, that there is much greater freedom of thought in India.

Dost Mittar, I am not being an apologist for anyone. The arrogance and narrow intolerance of so many Muslim rulers, clerics and their followers is appalling. Tragically all religions are tolerant and magnanimous in their times of greatness and become narrow and intolerance with the bitterness that follows periods of their decline. Perhaps some of the well documented examples of such intolerance need to be highlighted.

I agree with most of Mojahirs observations and am grateful for his elaborations.

Ghulam is right that the early questions are simplistic but it is surprising how many people believe India was the oldest civilisation, that most Indians originated in India, and that the varnas were ordained by god, Sanskrit was the mother of all languages and that the Aryans originated in India, etc. I have merely tried to question such dogmatism and put such prejudices in a factual perspective.

The Golden Bough by James George Frazer is a classic defining the magical roots of all religions. All religions began with simple spirituality and died when they became overwhelmed by an excessive baggage of ritual and superstition.

Krashid is absolutely right. The Hadith is not part of the Koran but is usually read with it to interpret any point of theology.

Part of the problem was that Brahmins made common folklore into virtual scripture unlike the epic myths and legends of other great civilisations. So many Indians feel criticism of myth is a virtual assault on their culture. They even codified even sculpture, medicine and other basic crafts into sacred shastras. While these contain the collective wisdom of many centuries, they also killed individuality and creativity.

Thank you Smellycat for your elaboration on the Kashi Vishwanath temple. The example shows how there can be many reasons for destroying temples and that myth and history are sometimes hard to separate. In fact there are many contradictions in Aurangzeb’s fairly well documented history. He was much more pragmatic and tolerant in the early part of his reign and even endowed some 36 temples including one at Chitrakoot that I visited three months ago. In his last bitter years, in what began as a fight against the Shia rulers of Golkonda and Bijapur, he stayed in the Deccan and alienated almost all his old allies including the Rajputs and stirred up the rebellions of the Marathas and Sikhs. During this period, many temples were demolished not only on his orders but even by some of his Hindu Amirs who thought it bring them Imperial favour.

Ghazni’s temple (and palace) destruction seems to have been almost entirely motivated by loot. His annual excursions reached many different rich targets from 1000 AD. A city near Peshawar in 1001, Bhatia on the Jhelum, a Muslim city in Multan. A great citadel and temple in Kangra in 1008 in whose vaults, the Shahis had accumulated 180 kilos of gold, 2 tonnes of silver, other booty valued at 70 million dirhams and a complete house of silver. Thanesar followed in 1010 ``with plunder impossible to recount``. Mathura followed in 1018 and Kanauj the following year. Muhammad returned with 20 million dirhams, 53,000 slaves and 350 elephants. He only targeted Somnath in 1025 where a reported 50,000 devotees allowed themselves to be slaughtered. The booty was so huge that his armies staggered back with great difficulty facing raiding bandits on the way. He was no religious fanatic and even had a Hindu army fight his Muslim rivals in Central Asia. He died in 1030.

It is difficult to be absolutely objective in history. Many facts can be disputed and even with these several different theories can be sincerely held. There are also many myths that breed prejudice and discord.

I do not wish to either praise or condemn anyone and have tried to avoid taking hard positions but to pose interesting and plausible counterpoints to some conventional ideas. I have attempted to challenge the socially damaging preconceived prejudices held by so many and stimulate some freethinking about our origins, religion, culture and history. The strong reactions confirm that many readers may also need to open their own minds. I am happy to have generated considerable intelligent response and also sorry if I have upset anyone.

i am surprised at teh ire in the soul that this article has caused. after all it is not as if murad ali baig has any standing as historian (a degree in history is not even near enough) or even commentator in india.

beyond cars, which he write on extensively, he has no credibility in the indian media.

right now i am sure mr baig must be fancing himself to be an intellectual under attack for these tirades against him! when he`s not even an intellectual to begin with. so dont credit him with this status.

I think he has exposed his ignorance enough in this article where purports to answers questions about indian and pakistani civilization (for they were the same till a 50 years ago)that serious historians are still working out. lets not give him more importance than he deserves.

Mr. Baig

I spent my whole night reading your article 38 pages long.

It gave me some idea of Philosophies in India.

One point I need to clarify.

You have stated that Hadith is part of Koran.

How did you reach that conclusion.

A Pakistani net-friend recently advised me to visit Chowk.com. This was my first visit. I`m already wondering if I should visit ever again. Reason: This article by Mr. Baig. I have nothing against this frustrated elederly gentleman. I`m surprised thought that the Chowk editor should ask a successful PR person to write serious articles on issues which even highly trained and venerated historians find difficult to handle.

My particular reference is to the articles last point: impact of independence. I`m shocked that Mr. Baig sees nothing - `no thing` - to say it in Jean Luc Goddard`s fashion - positive in independent India.

It is stupendous how he dismisses the neat result of world history`s most amazing struggles for freedom as `sudden empowerment of numerous interest groups`. He finds at least hundred years of freedom movement `sudden`.(and here I`m not even considering the numerous tribal and other grassroots uprisings before 1857, on which modern historians are putting increasing emphasis).

His sweeping comment that the British had no role in India`s impoverishment would put all modern British historians to shame. Clearly Mr.Baig has not the foggiest idea how colonialism operated in India in classical fashion. I suggest he does some reading on how the British purposefully interfered into the development of industrialization and the market in India. The second volume of the Cambridge Economic History of India (Habib & Roychaudhury) would be a good book to begin with.

That India has been able to preserve democracy as a political system despite all the poverty and hunger is no significance Mr.Baig? Remember how India`s illeterate millions thwarted Indira Gandhi`s effort to subvert democracy? Would he please stick his neck out a little, have a look around and tell us how many developing countries have a robust free media as India does? China? Pakistan? Sri Lanka? Afghanistan? The East European countries? The African nations? The Latin American states? Only last year I had an opportunity to interact face to face for three weeks with media specialists coming from 25 countries around the. All of us were between 30 & 40 years of age. We stayed together and became friends. This was in the US. I returned home a proud man, because our democracy matched the very best in the world.

Doesn`t Mr.Baig have any idea of the progress India has made in the fields of Science & Technology, Agriculture and medicine.

Yes, there have been failures. `Little victories and big defeats` -- to say in tune with Joan Baez. But let us not forget these very important victories, as we shouldn`t ignore the gravity of our failures either. Forty per cent of our people continue to hover around the poverty line. An ominous - but also artificial, I know for certain - storm of communal hatred is threatening to tear the country apart. Worst of all people are slowly losing faith in the judiciary: How can they not after the Narmada verdict. All this is true. Yet it will be worthwhile to remember for how many years developed countries like the US, Britain, Germany, France, Japan etc. have been independent of any long term foreign occupation. A comparison will surely show India`s independence in much better light than Mr. Baig tries to project.

As for the dear Editor(s) of Chowk.com, catering such articles will only widen the estrangement between the people of India and Pakistan. Simply because it`s based on a total misunderstanding of history. We have bled enough constantly hurt by the barbed wires of disinformation, hatred and mistrust. We can do without any more untruths.

NILANJAN HAJRA

CALCUTTA

WEST BENGAL

INDIA

After reading this ``scholarly article`` by Murad Ali Baig, one sad conclusion can easily be made.

If one has right political connections and rich dads, even a stupid person can become general manager of a company in India. On brighter side, it shows that claims of descrimination againsts Muslims are false. If even an idiot like Murad can become a GM, intelligent muslims can achieve much more.

Amateur Historians do more harm to the cause of History than good... the guy looks like the most gullible of people in his photograph.

In all this Murad bashing that is going on, I want to say one thing: I know that Murad actually gets on to the road by car, train, plane whatever and checks out the local traditions, the folklore, the geography . . . the unwritten but often ``sung`` histories passed down . . . and then comes to his hypo-thesis.

I think Murad`s conjectures or conclusions beat those by most of us thumping keyboards.

Then again, maybe I am wrong?

What a waste of time and effort it has been! As one interested in serious history, I had set out for a brief unemotional journey down the lanes. But what i got was a half-cooked, biased and a bunch of lies; propagated with an unsubstantiated belief in the self. Murad is actually trying to make political statement(s), separating brahmins from others, suggesting them to be the biggest curse on India. Everything that is positive and undeniably good had it`s roots in Persia.Everything demeaning and unhuman was strictly local in origin. If rig veda has any salient feature then it is derived from Zend Avesta. What kind of history is this Mr. Murad?

You seem to rejoice im many of the findings (many based on your own discovery) and you call it an unemotional look at history. Actually you have interpreted history here, just as you wanted it to be.

Like...

# Early Indians always ate beef..but these brahmins...

# ``Are (Shiv, Krishna, Ram, Lakshmi, Parvati, Saraswati, Ganga) or the concepts of rein­carnation, Dharma, Karma, Ahimsa alien to the Vedas?``

How did you think this question bothered students of history all along?

Dharma,karma, himsa,ahimsa are all sanskrit wordds, hence Hindu in origin but Buddhism and Jainism advocated strong adherence to them.

# Ramayana, Mahabharata were great battles fought in Persia and documented and ``mythologised``

in India. Rama must have made a long voyage to Lanka{gawd!!!}. Do you need to discuss Rama`s character to tell us about Ancient Indian history?

# A baniya festival, a kshatriya festival or a shudra festival...what do you want to say..?

Do you need to discuss Babri Masjid when talking of Moghul history? Muslim invaders destroyed temples because they wanted to loot the wealth..? How simplistic. A few years from now you will say Taliban destroyed Buddha statues because they thought they would find huge amount of wealth in Buddha`s large belly. (sic...Murad your argument stinks..). Do not try to justify history Murad just as we (hindus) cannot justify babri masjid demolition. Indian Muslims are not responsible for the deeds of their ``ancestors`` and the conditions prevalent then.

If discussing Indian history meant discussing hinduism(buddhism, jainism..) and it`s evils then you should also have discussed Islam and thrown more light on it`s evils and life and character of Mohammed (now it might sound ridiculous to you).

You are not biased when you say that there is nothing wrong with Islam but only that the followers knew little islam....

# Just like Islam, Buddhism and Jainism are great simple religions unlike hinduism. Thanks for the concession Mr. Murad. To think that Buddhism,Jainism and Hinduism constitute the same people.

# ``Though some historians have given a strong communal colour to the torture and execution of Guru Arjan Dev, few know that his chief tormentor was no Muslim but a Hindu banker whose daughter Arjan had refused to marry to his son. Paradoxically his main defender was Mian Mir a Muslim divine``

{ another of your logic...that hindus were the cause for everything, basically sikhs and moghuls were bosom pals but for those brahmins... }

# Until the advent of the Turks and then more such tribes...India was in dark ages....and the sole reason for the cultural advancement of moghul india were the persians!!!!!!

You make me laugh Murad.

# Muslims are intolerant today because european powers rode to great heights and they(muslims) started living on past glory...{ Murad you are a genious SIR! }



There are many more issues you have touched which have no bearing on history, which you could have done well to avoid. Many valid and useful information that you have brought out here are lost in a non-sense lens that you used to decipher history. Don`t add feelings to history and neither be judgemental. History is a sensitive subject.

It`s only at the end that I found that you are mainly into advertising. And you did just that Mr. Murad. One solitary suggestion: ``please, stick to advertising, and leave history alone.

At the end of it all, one word kept coming to my mouth: ``NAMURAD``.



no regards, { let good thoughts come to you from all directions }

Pullu (hindu)

On the Misportrayal of India:

Toward a New Look at Indian History

by David B. Gray, PhD

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/ECITmisportrayalframeset.htm

Copyright 2001, The Educational Council on Indic Traditions

Presented at the Asian Studies Development Program National Conference on March 21, 2001

at the College of DuPage, Glen Ellyn, IL

Introduction

The study of India in the West has long been overshadowed by the concerns of Eurocentric historians, who, to the extent that they studied India at all, did so in a manner that privileged Europe as the motivating force of world history. India has, ever since the classical Greeks make contact with the Persians to the East, been an object of curiosity for Europeans, although until recently their knowledge of India was largely second-hand and imprecise. As Europeans gained greater access to India, it was under the context of the British conquest and colonialization, and this significantly affected the resulting portrayal. India has been represented as lacking historical agency, and serving a role in history that is subservient to the agenda of Europeans. Despite the many recent critiques of colonial orientalist historiography, elements of this tradition linger on in contemporary studies of India, and, in particular, in textbooks geared for secondary school and undergraduate students.

The purpose of this essay is twofold; it will attempt to undertake the following aims:

1. Elucidate the paradigms of Indian historiography that have prevailed in academic writings, especially the notion that India lacks a historical tradition per se, and that India was a passive field activated primarily by the incursion of invading groups.

2. Counteract this notion and restore the historical agency of Indians by stressing the numerous ways in which India served as a powerful civilizing and economic force in the world, not because of invasions but in spite of them. Evidence concerning centrality of India in the pre-modern and early modern world economies should be presented in secondary and undergraduate level texts.

In this paper the former task will largely be addressed. Given the time constraint, it will only be possible here to suggest an alternative approach to the study of Indian history.

Much ink has been spilled concerning the issue of orientalism; in the context of India, Ronald Inden and many others have shown the degree to which the orientalist enterprise was deeply intertwined with colonial institutions. Histories of India produced by this school tended to represent Indian history in a fashion that legitimated colonial rule. This paper will explore one aspect of this historiography, an aspect which is unfortunately alive and well in many current accounts.

One might hope that by now a new model of Indian historiography would have developed, one that stresses the agency of Indians and rejects contrived culturally chauvinist constructions. Fortunately, new models are emerging, but unfortunately they have not yet fully supplanted the older models, which still linger on albeit in weakened forms. One model is what might be called the ``invasion theory`` of Indian history. In its strong form, it is simply a version of the Hegelian portrayal, the assumption being that India as a passive, unchanging entity has only undergone historical change when motivated by outside forces, namely active aggressors. While the explicit version of this model has fallen out of fashion, it remains in an attenuated forms in narrative accounts of Indian history that are structured around invasions, making them implicitly appear to be the central events in Indian history.

Now, India was of course invaded over the course of its long history, usually from the interior of Asia. This is not peculiar to India, but is a pattern seen throughout Eurasia, in which sedentary agricultural societies situated along the coasts or in river valleys were periodically invaded by nomadic, pastoral peoples from the interior. This pattern is also seen in East and West Asia as well as in Europe; it is unlikely that India suffered invasions with any greater frequency than these regions. In fact, it seems likely that East and West Asia were invaded more frequently simply because they are far more geographically open to attack. China`s northern border, for example, is simply the open steppes of central Asia, whence invaders descended with alarming frequency. Lacking a natural barrier such as the Himalayan and Hindukush mountains that admirably shield India`s northern border, the Chinese expended incredible time and energy constructing a series of walls and guard posts. Naturally, no barrier is impermeable; walls can be breached and mountain ranges have passes. Since India is no exception in this regard, there is thus no good reason to particularly dwell on invasions as a motivating force in Indian history.

Hegel played an important role in this model of Indian historiography. In so doing, he ignored and indeed discredited the extensive influence India had on other Eurasian civilizations. He wrote in his Philosophy of History that

On the whole, the diffusion of Indian culture is only a dumb, deedless expansion; that is, it presents no political action. The people of India have achieved no foreign conquests, but have been on every occasion vanquished themselves. And as in this silent way, Northern India has been a center of emigration, productive of merely physical diffusion, India as a Land of Desire forms an essential element in General history … From the most ancient times downwards, all nations have directed their wishes and longings to gain access to the treasures of this land of marvels, the most costly which the earth presents; treasures of nature - pearls, diamonds, perfumes, rose-essences, elephants, lions, etc. - as also treasures of wisdom. The ways by which these treasures have passed to the West, has at all times been a matter of World-historical importance, bound up with the fate of nations. Those wishes have been realized; this Land of Desire has been attained; there is scarcely any great nation of the East, nor of the Modern European West, that has not gained for itself a smaller or larger portion of it. 1

India so characterized makes the Western colonial aggression and resultant theft of resources appear as an essential an inevitable stage of history; this indeed is the ulterior motive, conscious or unconscious, in constructing an essentalized version of Indian history. The conclusion of this passage, which portrays the colonization of India as something practically every ``great nation`` has done, is also clearly an attempt at the legitimization of the colonial enterprise.

It is now widely recognized that such theories of history are basically ethnocentric justifications of European colonialism. While they are rooted in the very real hegemony achieved by the Europeans of most of the world during the nineteenth century, they err in assuming this achievement was due to an intrinsic superiority of the Europeans. This myth of the superiority of the West is in fact based upon a systematic erasure of the interdependency of humanity, and the negation of the many and real contributions of other regions of the world that made the European rise to power possible.

The colonial perspective lingers on today in what might be termed the ``invasion theory`` of Indian history. This narrative assumes (usually implicitly) Hegel`s idea that India is an intrinsically static, passive civilization, incapable on its own of having a history. Indian history then is taken as the result of a long series of invasions, beginning with the mythical ``Aryans`` and culminating in the invasion by the British. While there was at times warfare between India and her neighbors, sometimes culminating in invasion, India here is no exception to the general trends of ancient and medieval history. To assume that invasions are THE motivating force in Indian history is to fall into the self-justifying theory of Indian history developed by the British to legitimate their exploitive colonization of India.

This pattern is often repeated in contemporary histories of India. These typically begin with a cursory description of the Indus-Saraswati civilization, before moving on to describe the destruction of this civilization by the ``Aryans``, a nomadic people, supposedly originating in the steppes of Central Asia, whose invasion destroyed its older precursor, but who introduced to India their own culture which was to give rise to glories of the Vedas and classical Indian Vedic civilization. This is the first of the invasions that mark the ``invasion theory`` narrative. It is based on one bona fide fact: that there is in fact a strong linguistic connection between European and Indian languages. This theory slips from the factual and into the mythical, however, in making several assumptions. The first is the equation of language and race. The second is that language transfer was necessarily effect through the medium of invasion, rather than by diffusion, peaceful migration or some other means.

There are several inconsistencies with this theory. One is that there is actually no evidence that invaders destroyed the Indus-Saraswati civilization; this theory is in fact based upon the interpretation of several ambiguous Rig Veda hymns. As Shaffer and Lichtenstein have pointed out, archeological evidence points to a gradual abandonment of Indus Valley sites due to climate change, and particularly due to massive tectonic activity around 1900 BCE which changed the course of the Saraswati river and rendered the numerous cities located on its former banks uninhabitable. These changes occurred several centuries before the Aryans supposedly even arrived in India, which is usually dated around 1500 BCE. These changes led to the gradual migration of peoples East, into the Gangetic Valley, a event which is attested both in the archeological record and in the Vedic texts themselves. As Shaffer and Lichtenstein put it,

The modern archeological record for South Asia indicates a cultural history of continuity rather than the earlier eighteenth through twentieth century scholarly interpretations of discontinuity and South Asian dependence upon Western influences. The cultural and political conditions of Europe`s nineteenth and twentieth centuries were strong influences in sustaining this interpretation. It is possible now to discern cultural continuities linking specific social entities in South Asia into one cultural tradition. This is not to propose social isolation nor deny outside influence. Outside influences did affect South Asian cultural development in later historic periods, but an identifiable cultural tradition has continued, an Indo-Gangetic Tradition linking diverse social entities which span a time period from the development of food production in the seventh millennium BC to the present. (Shaffer and Lichtenstein 1999:255-56)

It is not my point here to argue that there was or was not an Aryan invasion. Given the ambiguity of evidence, it is a topic on which I must remain agnostic, although I should add that the burden of proof lies with those who insist on its veracity. Here I would only like to point out the peculiar fact that on such a tenuous hypothesis rests an entire edifice of Indian historiography. The assumption of Aryan conquest of Northern India was elaborated into timelines of Indian history as well as theories of social geography and demography that are extended well into the historical era, as if this one event of the distant past is the key to understanding all of Indian history. As Inden points out,

Presupposing their Aryocentric geography and oriental demography, scholars have represented these states on their maps and read the political history they fabricated from them. That history consisted of the narrative of a society that was made to be inherently dependent on the intervention of a Western political economy for its unity and prosperity. (1990:187)

The next invasion in the invasion theory timeline is that conducted by Alexander the Great. Our sources for this invasion are Greeks, who may have had a natural tendency to exaggerate the significance of this event, which in fact made no impression whatsoever on the Indian historical record. Even in the Greek sources, Alexander`s sojourn in India is admittedly brief; having made it to the Indus River he quickly returned West again. The consequence of this event was the establishment of the Seleucid Greek kingdom in Persia and the Middle East, as well as the establishment of a smaller, independent Greek kingdom in Bactria, in what is now Afghanistan. Their expansion into India proper was prevented by the rise of the Mauryan dynasty in the late fourth-century BCE, which succeeded in uniting most of India under centralized rule.

There is no doubt that the Greeks had an influence in North India and were in turn influenced by the stay there. But this influence has been exaggerated, extending beyond the realm of the probable and into the realm of the wildly improbable. Greek influence was particularly attributed to the rise of Buddhist art and the development of Mahayana Buddhism, casting India`s most significant cultural export as a product of European influence. These theories have been largely discredited, however, and exposed as what they truly are. As Stanley Abe put it,

The late nineteenth-century interest in claiming an originary role for the Greek tradition in early Buddhist art must, at least in part, be understood in the context of this larger European project to construct a cultural lineage back to purely Aryan Greece. The erasure of the non-Aryan within the West was played out in the assertion of Greek (Aryan) influence onto Gandhara. In this sense, the discovery of Greek influence in Gandhara has as much to do with the need of the West to secure its own internal dislocations and self-representation as it does with Buddhist art. (1995:84)

Following the Greeks, the invasion theory timeline moves on to the Mauryan dynasty, and then to the invasions of the Kushans and Sythians. The Gupta dynasty is then covered, only to move on to the devastation caused by the invasion of the Huns. Following the Huns, India is usually portrayed as undergoing a political decline characterized by fragmentation and decentralization, as well as a cultural decline, resulting in the rise of ``unorthodox`` religious traditions such as the Tantric schools of Buddhism and Hinduism. India was then purified by the violence of the Islamic invasions, resulting in the re-establishment of centralized rule under the Moghuls.

This narrative framework is found in many histories of India, including some quite modern ones. The classic version of this history is Vincent Smith`s The Oxford History of India (1919), which has been duly deconstructed by Inden, who makes quite clear the ideology underpinning the ``invasion`` narrative. Inden wrote that

To have represented the kingdoms of India as relatively autonomous agents, as complex, inter-related polities that could unite through pacts as well as `force` within a single imperial formation and create new centres not determined by a fixed military topography, would have undermined this whole orientalist project. So Smith dispatched cruel Huns to prepare the way for the still worse advent of Islam, which would in turn, clear the way for the miraculous arrival by sea of the better Aryan, the Western or European. He could clip the Dravidian jungle and prevent the Russians setting fire to the whole green expanse. The history of medieval decline did not stop, however, by preparing for the modern. If Smith`s history of ancient India was, in effect, a history of its present, his narrative of medieval India was really a parable of the future, of what would happen in India if the British withdrew. (1990:188)

At issue here are not necessarily the ``facts`` of history, but rather the ideology that underlies certain configurations of ``facts``, and the relative degrees of emphasis placed upon them. Even if all were true that would not render the ``invasion theory`` histories unproblematic. Histories are, after all, narratives, and as such are selective in the narrative elements in which they choose to convey. Histories are ideological in precisely this way; ideology is present in the choices historians make. This is not necessarily a conscious process. As Edmund Leach noted,

``Bad`` history is seldom constructed out of fantasy; it is simply that we tend to accept as good history whatever is congenial to our contemporary way of thinking. The good history of one generation becomes the bad history of the next.

In presenting an essentalized view of India as a passive land of invasions, historians of the colonial era concocted histories congenial to their contemporary way of thinking. For us now, presumably, these are bad history, but one might wonder if the persistence of this narrative might indicate that we are not as far from the colonialist mentality as we would like to believe.

How might a new history be constructed? At this point I cannot answer this question definitively, but only offer a tentative solution. This would be to depict cultural influence not as a one-way street, but as a result of complex interdependencies between cultural regions. A more accurate portrayal of India would treat the influence of India on the rest of Eurasia at least as extensively as the influence of other cultures on India. So doing would require a conceptual framework that transcends the academic regional pigeon-holes such as West Asia, South Asia, East Asia and so forth and focus instead on the dynamics of inter-regional connectivity. Such would probably best be undertaken not by a single scholar, but by a group of scholars representing numerous methodological and regional specializations.

Here we should conclude with the hope that new histories do not fall into the same trap of essentalizing India. While we can and should seek a history that places greater emphasis on India`s historical agency, we should not do so with the assumption that there is any essential ``India`` out there which needs to be rediscovered. India is and probably always has been a complex of different cultural and ethnic groups who cannot be reduced to any particular essence. But in writing a history, such diversity must be respected, while at the same time paying more attention to the ways in which Indians throughout history have played an active role both in constructing their own history as well as in acting as influential players in the world.

Notes

1. Hegel 1956, pp. 141-42, op cit. Inden 1990 p. 70.

Works Cited

Abe, Stanley K. 1995. ``Inside the Wonder House: Buddhist Art and the West``. In Curators of the Buddha: The Study of Buddhism Under Colonialism. Donald S. Lopez, ed. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, pp. 63-106.

Hegel, G. W. F. 1956. Philosophy of History. J. Sibree, trans. New York: Dover.

Inden, Ronald B. 1990. Imagining India. Cambridge: Blackwell.

Leach, Edmund. 1990. ``Aryan Invasions over Four Millenia``. In Emiko Ohnuki-Tierney, ed. Culture Through Time: Anthropological Approaches. Stanford: Stanford University Press, pp. 227-245.

Shaffer, Jim G. and Diana A. Lichtenstein. ``Migration, Philology and South Asian Archeology``. In Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia: Evidence, Interpretation and Ideology. Johannes Bronkhorst and Madhav M. Deshpande, eds. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1999, pp. 239-60.

Smith, Vincent A. 1919. The Oxford History of India. fourth edition, Percival Spear, ed. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1958.

I think that Murad Ali Baig should go back to some History School if he has to even think about writing history again. I think age is getting over him. He probably should retire. Or else go to a mental asylum!

There are many faults in what he has said in this article. Its a pity that such a seasoned man like him (Really???) should make comments on things he doesnt even know. Some of the useless and wrong interpretations in his article are:

Q1. Nobody ever said India was the oldest civilization!!

Q2.Everybody knows that Homo Sapiens originated from Africa. Who said they originated in India???

Q3.What has skin colour to do with this debate?? Did anyone say that India ever had fair skinned people and that led to social problems?

Q6.GREAT THINKING,IF THEY WERE DRAVIDIANS, THEN WHY IS THERE NO SIMILARITY IN THE LIFESTYLE OF DRAVIDIANS TODAY AND THAT OF THE INDUS VALLEY PEOPLE.

Q9. What has the origin of the word ``Magic`` to do with religions??? If MAB thinks that religions had their foundations in magic, then I cant stop laughing at his great finding!!!

Qs10 and 12. Here our great writer is trying to mislead leaders with like sounding names. True, Rig Veda may have borrowed from Zend Avesta. MAB says Devas were Daevas of Zend Avesta, who were Devils. Cant they be ``Daityas`` who are the demons of Rig Veda. MAB is just trying to foment trouble by unnecessary and ridiculous interpretations

Q13. THERE ARE 4 VEDAS !!!! BOTTOM LINE .TRUE THE THE OTHER THREE WERE COMPILED LATER, BUT THEY WERE VEDAS!! BECAUSE THEY ARE REGARDED AS VEDAS. THERE IS NO REASON WHY A PERSON WHO DOESN`T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HINDU MYTHOLOGY SHOULD DECIDE THAT THEY ARE NOT VEDAS!!

Q14. NOBODY EVER SAID THAT SANSKRIT WAS THE MOTHER OF ALL LANGUAGES !!! IF MAB EVER BELIEVED THAT, THEN HE IS A FOOL.

Q15. EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT ARYANS DID NOT ORIGINATE IN INDIA. WHY THE DEBATE THEN??

Q19.Their priests were the Arthvan (from Arth, meaning a person of essence).This was probably the origin of the Vedic word Brahmin. Their warriors were Ratheshwar (from Rath, meaning charioteer) and this was the origin of Kshatriya.HOW CAN ``ARTHVAN`` PROBABLY BE THE ORIGIN OF THE WORD ``BRAHMIN``?? AND ``RATHESHWAR`` BE THE ORIGIN OF ``KSHATRIYA``??? DO THEY SOUND ALIKE TO MAB????? OR IS THERE ANY OTHER EXPLANATION??

SO MANY MISLEADING COMMENTS IN THE FIRST 20 SELF MADE QUESTIONS THAT MAB HAS TRIED TO ANSWER!!! FRANKLY, I DIDNT THINK THIS ARTICLE WAS WORTH EVEN A SINGLE MORE MINUTE OF MY PRECIOUS TIME. I THINK CHOWK SHOULD REMOVE THIS ARTICLE FROM THEIR SITE TO SAVE PEOPLE THEIR TIME AND BAR MAB FROM WRITING ANY MORE ARTICLES ON THE SITE.

Mr. Baig

I am not a Hindutva-vadi, or a ``praise-seeking`` Indian. I tried hard to read your essay without any pre-judgements or passions, but boy, do you make it heard.

Unfortunately, you see, I am a brahmin. It is very hard to remain silent when you bash me, my ancestors and effectively try to rewrite our history. My people have persevered over thousands of years, living ascetic lives and on the alms of other castes, to carry forward the knowledge of the vedas from generation to generation. There have been those among us (like in ALL castes) seeking fame, power, and money and have done unnameable harm to others. But hey, ``let he who is without sin cast the first stone`` and all that, right? Brahmins account for 3% of the country`s population and are being systematically eradicated from Kashmir downwards. Please do not indulge in the fantasy that you can heap the country`s ills and bad moments in history upon us and get away with it.

Anyway, your article is anything but objective, and anything but unvarnished. You are doing exactly the same thing to history that the VHP and Bajrang Dal are - trying to tilt it to suit your tastes. I`d like to see how Muslims react if you called Mohammed a ``seducer of women`` - like you have called Hanuman. It is a testament to Hindus` tolerance by and large that slanderous writing like yours is let go without challenge.

Hello Murad

You are one of the worst writer I have ever seen .

(1) There is a place called kurushetra where Mahabharata was fought and the soil is still red.

(2) There is a place called Janakpur in nepal wheer ram married sita .

And there are many information that are wrong .Idol worship became famous because it gives you a way to pray .

Islam not spread by love but it spread by sword .

Understand

Hello Murad

You are one of the worst writer I have ever seen .

(1) There is a place called kurushetra where Mahabharata was fought and the soil is still red.

(2) There is a place called Janakpur in nepal wheer ram married sita .

And there are many information that are wrong .Idol worship became famous because it gives you a way to pray .

Islam not spread by love but it spread by sword .

Understand

in Question 59 you write:

``Two hundred years later, the celebrated Al-Bukhari, a devout Muslim scholar, travelled the Muslim world to write most of the Hadith or the sayings and examples from the prophet`s life, that now forms a part of the Koran.``

This is completely false!

Hadith do not form a part of the Koran!

The Holy Koran is ONLY as much as was revealed to the Prophet PBUH over a period of 23 years!

Murad,

56. Did Muslim perpetrate forcible conversions?

You don`t give any accounts here, just some baashan. Why not try to list the events from the history ? You do not want to list them, Why? Do you want me to list them for you ?

46. Did Hindu rulers encourage violent religious persecutions?

Now, Here you go hunting for some kind of half-truths, to be pushed as ``history``. Really, in more than 2 millenia of history you couldn`t find more half-truths to be subverted as ``truth``, Right?

http://members.nbci.com/_XMCM/KoenraadElst/articles/aurangzeb.html

During the Ayodhya controversy, there were occasional statements in the Hindutva camp confirming (VHP) or denying (BJP) that apart from Ram Janmabhoomi, two other sacred sites should also be ``liberated`` from Islamic ``occupation``: Krishna Janmabhoomi in Mathura and Kashi Vishvanath in Varanasi. Though the Hindu business community in central Varanasi has made it clear that it refuses to suffer the inevitable losses which would accompany an agitation in their densely populated neighbourhood, the liberation of Kashi Vishvanath is still on the VHP`s agenda. Therefore, some authors have tried to ``do an Ayodhya`` on Kashi, viz. try to make people believe that there never was a Hindu temple at the disputed site.

Syed Shahabuddin asserts that Muslims cannot possibly have destroyed any Hindu temple, because ``pulling down a place of worship to construct a mosque is against the Shariat``; claims to the contrary are all ``chauvinist propaganda``. Arun Shourie has confronted this claim with the information given in the official court chronicle, MaasiriAlamgiri, which records numerous orders for and reports of destructions of temples. Its entry for 2 September 1669 tells us: ``News came to court that in accordance with the Emperor`s command his officers had demolished the temple of Vishvanath at Banaras``. Moreover, till today, the old Kashi Vishvanath temple wall is visible as a part of the walls of the Gyanvapi mosque which Aurangzeb had built at the site.

In the face of such direct testimony, it is wiser not to challenge facts headon. It is better to minimize or to justify them. Thus, Percival Spear, co-author (with Romila Thapar) of the prestigious Penguin History of India, writes: ``Aurangzeb`s supposed intolerance is little more than a hostile legend based on isolated acts such as the erection of a mosque on a temple site in Benares.`` But a perusal of the same Moghul chronicle thoroughly refutes this reassuring assertion: Aurangzeb had thousands of temples destroyed. And other chronicles, diaries and other documents concerning Muslim rulers in India prove that the practice was not a personal idiosyncrasy of Aurangzeb`s either.

Therefore, a more promising way of defusing the conflict potential which the mosque at the Kashi Vishvanath site carries, is to justify the replacement of the temple with a mosque. Maybe the owners and users of the temple had brought it on themselves? Maybe Islam can be disentangled from this act of destruction in favour of a purely secular motive?

JNU historian Prof. K.N. Panikkar offers one way out: ``the destruction of the temple at Banaras also had political motives. It appears that a nexus between the sufi rebels and the pandits of the temple existed and it was primarily to smash this nexus that Aurangzeb ordered action against the temple.`` The eminent historian quotes no source for this strange allegation. In those days, Pandits avoided to even talk with Mlecchas, let alone to concoct intrigues with them.

Other secularists have spread a more sophisticated variation, now regularly reproduced in the media: ``Did Muslim rulers destroy temples? Some of them certainly did. Following the molestation of a local princess by some priests in a temple at Benaras, Aurangzeb ordered the total destruction of the temple and rebuilt it at a nearby site. And this is the only temple he is believed to have destroyed.`` This story is now repeated ad nauseam, not only in the extremist Muslim press and in the secularist press but also in academic platforms by ``eminent historians``. It is repeated with approval by historian Gargi Chakravartty, who also reveals the source of this story.

She introduces the quotation as follows: ``Much has been said about Aurangzeb`s demolition order of Vishwanath temple at Banaras. But documentary evidence gives a new dimension to the whole episode:`` What follows is the theory launched by B.N. Pande, working chairman of the Gandhi Darshan Samiti and former Governor of Orissa:

``The story regarding demolition of Vishvanath temple is that while Aurangzeb was passing near Varanasi on his way to Bengal, the Hindu Rajas in his retinue requested that if the halt was made for a day, their Ranis may go to Varanasi, have a dip in the Ganges and pay their homage to Lord Vishwanath. Aurangzeb readily agreed. Army pickets were posted on the five mile route to Varanasi. The Ranis made a journey on the Palkis. They took their dip in the Ganges and went to the Vishwanath temple to pay their homage. After offering Puja all the Ranis returned except one, the Maharani of Kutch.

``A thorough search was made of the temple precincts but the Rani was to be found nowhere. When Aurangzeb came to know of it, he was very much enraged. He sent his senior officers to search for the Rani. Ultimately, they found that the statue of Ganesh which was fixed in the wall was a moveable one. When the statue was moved, they saw a flight of stairs that led to the basement. To their horror, they found the missing Rani dishonoured and crying, deprived of all her ornaments. The basement was just beneath Lord Jagannath`s seat. The Rajas expressed their vociferous protests. As the crime was heinous, the Rajas demanded exemplary action. Aurangzeb ordered that as the sacred precincts have been despoiled, Lord Vishvanath may be moved to some other place, the temple be razed to the ground and the Mahant be arrested and punished.``

The story is very bizarre, to say the least. First of all, it has Aurangzeb go to Bengal. Yet, in the extant histories of his life and works, no such journey to Bengal, or even any journey as far east as Varanasi, is recorded. Some of his generals were sent on expeditions to Bengal, but not Aurangzeb himself. There are fairly complete chronicles of his doings, day by day; could B.N. Pande or any of his quoters give the date or even the year of this remarkable episode?

Neither was Aurangzeb known to surround himself with Hindu courtiers. And did these Rajas take their wives along on military expeditions? Or was it some holiday picnic? How could the Mahant kidnap a Rani who was there in the company of other Ranis, as well as the appropriate courtiers and bodyguards? Why did he take such risk? Why did the ``Rajas`` wait for Aurangzeb to take ``exemplary action``: did they fear his anger if they punished the priests or destroyed the temple themselves? And since when is demolition the approved method of purifying a defiled temple, an eventuality for which the Shâstras have laid down due ritual procedures?

One question which we can readily answer is, where did B.N. Pande get this story from? He himself writes: ``Dr. Pattabhi Sitaramayya, in his famous book The Feathers and the Stones has narrated this fact based on documentary evidence.`` So, we have to go one more step back in time to find this intriguing ``documentary evidence``. Let us turn to this book, now hard to find, to see what the documentary evidence is on which this whole wave of pro Aurangzeb rumours is based, but which no one has cared to reproduce or even just specify. This is what Gandhian Congress leader Pattabhi Sitaramayya wrote in his prison diary:

``There is a popular belief that Aurangazeb was a bigot in religion. This, however, is combated by a certain school. His bigotry is illustrated by one or two instances. The building of a mosque over the site of the original Kasi Visveswara Temple is one such. A like mosque in Mathura is another. The revival of Jazia is a third but of a different order. A story is told in extenuation of the first event.

``In the height of his glory, Aurangazeb like any foreign king in a country, had in his entourage a number of Hindu nobles. They all set out one day to see the sacred temple of Benares. Amongst them was a Ranee of Cutch. When the party returned after visiting the Temple, the Ranee of Cutch was missing. They searched for her in and out, East, North, West and South but no trace of her was noticeable. At last, a more diligent search revealed a Tah Khana or an underground storey of the temple which to all appearances had only two storeys. When the passage to it was found barred, they broke open the doors and found inside the pale shadow of the Ranee bereft of her jewellery.

``It turned out that the Mahants were in the habit of pick ing out wealthy and bejewelled pilgrims and in guiding them to see the temple, decoying them to the underground cellar and robbing them of their jewellery. What exactly would have happened to their life one did not know. Anyhow in this case, there was no time for mischief as the search was diligent and prompt. On discovering the wickedness of the priests, Aurangazeb declared that such a scene of robbery could not be the House of God and ordered it to be forthwith demolished. And the ruins were left there.

``But the Ranee who was thus saved insisted on a Musjid being built on the ruined and to please her, one was subsequently built. That is how a Musjid has come to exist by the side of the Kasi Visweswar temple which is no temple in the real sense of the term but a humble cottage in which the marble Siva Linga is housed. Nothing is known about the Mathura Temple.

``This story of the Benares Musjid was given in a rare manuscript in Lucknow which was in the possession of a respected Mulla who had read it in the Ms. and who though he promised to look it up and give the Ms. to a friend, to whom he had narrated the story, died without fulfilling his promise. The story is little known and the prejudice, we are told, against Aurangazeb persists.``

So now, we finally know where the story comes from: an unnamed mullah friend of an unnamed acquaintance of Sitaram ayya`s knew of a manuscript, the details of which he took with him in his grave. This is the ``document`` on which secularist journalists and historians base their ``evidence`` of Aurangzeb`s fair and secularist disposition, overruling the evidence of archaeology and the cold print of the MaasiriAlamgiri, to ``explode the myth`` of Islamic iconoclasm spread by the ``chauvinist`` Hindutva propagandists. Now you just try to imagine what the secularists and their mouthpieces in Western academe would say if Hindus offered evidence of this quality.

Hi,

Your research seems to have lacked a clear insight and at the same time is biased.

To me it seems more like Brahmin bashing.

Whatever good india could achieve was only due to the Buddhists (before Islamic invasion) and in the later phase attributed to thePersians, Moghuls,..

``Though it may have initially been a revolt against the oppressive Brahmin practices especially their lavish sacrifices, it propagated the concepts of Karma, Dharma, Ahimsa reincarnation that later became a core part of

Hindu philosophy especially through the later Upanishads.``

Now what the hell is this?

Isn`t that Guatama wanted to find the reason for human suffering, why a human has to go through sickness, suffering of old life and finally the death.

Didn`t he want to find the reason for this suffering. Finally he did find it, which was desire.

So how do you say that ``it may have initially been a revolt against the oppressive Brahmin practices``

Also, he started penancing, starving and went through hardships as these were the methods to achieve Siddhi and various other powers but failed

(rather was not onvinced) and left it halfway.

And then you go on to say that ``it propagated the concepts of Karma, Dharma, Ahimsa and reincarnation that later became a core part of

Hindu philosophy especially through the later Upanishads.``

Dharma and Ahimsa were there since the time of Jainism which was practised way before Buddism took form.

``Buddhism, as well as Jainism, encouraged industry and commerce which the Brahmins considered `arth`, or earthly, and thus impure and undesirable. It was the trade and commerce of the Buddhist era that actually contributed to so much of the greatness of India.``

Well if you go through the defination of each and every caste/class

Brahmin is supposed to learn and teach thats his dsuty he is not supposed to collect wealth but live by the donations (bikshas) given to him by the warrior class

The kshtriya class is bound by the duty to protect the country i.e.defeed and wage war

Only the vaishnav is supposed to engage in bussiness

``Alexander`s enemies were not Indian or Hindu. There were no national boundaries at the time and Buddhism was the strongest religion of the time in

India.``

Religion at that time didn`t define national boundaries as it does today. And ofcourse there was never a war like situation b/t the vedic and the budhist thoughts. These crusades and jehads are the product of the ``revealed religions`` like Islam and Christianity. So it does not really matter whether Vedic or Buddhist thoughts hold sway on the people because the culturally the people were the same.

And ofcourse it was a Brahmin Kautilya who was running from pillar to post to form a united stand against the Alexander.

``Did Hindu rulers encourage violent religious persecutions?

These question is like how many Muslim rulers encourage tolerant religion practices?

Ofcourse its just a handful of them.

``It was this spectacular wealth and not the wealth of the land that attracted robbers like Mahmud of Ghazni``

If I am not wrong this guy invaded the northen parts of the Indian subcontinent 11 years in a row. So you mean to say that every time after being looted and gutted down, the poor hindus used to rebuild and enrich their temples so that the robber won`t go empty handed the next year.

``They even took control of the tomb of a Muslim saint, the Sai Baba at Shirdi in Maharashtra.``

Now this is highly ridiculous, how do you know that Saibaba was a Muslim saint. I have read extensively about the saint. Even his close acquantiances could not determine this secret and he never answered this question. He used to say ``Allah malik`` to the hindus and ``Ram Ram`` to the muslims just to create harmaony between them. Though he used to dress like a muslim fakir, his ears were pierced. He used to stay in a abandoned masjid which he used to call Dwarkamai. Even now people don`t know his faith at the time of his birth.

`` Did betrayal cause the success of Arab incursions?``

Its been said that after the conquest the Arabs killed the entire brahmin caste of sindh .THere are two theories 1. the brahmins were the only one who offered resistance ,2. the branmins colluded with the Arabs to win against the local king and hence the arabs didn`t trus them.

Whichever is true, today there is no Brahmin caste among the Sindhis.

``Why did the Rajputs fail to ward off the Islamic threat?``

Now you should look into various aspects here.

A Rajput is a very different type of a warrior. Even a British officer had pointed out that for a Rajput honour is more important than winning a war.For him the code of conduct like fighting till death, not fleeing the battleground and not attacking a fleeing enemy are more important than a war won by deceptive means.

Have you forgotten how Alauddin Khilji deceptively captured the Rana.

Also Islam had brought a very different kind of warfare to the subcintinent. The victor now not only killed the garrison but didn`t even spared the civilian populace.

Regarding the ``johars``, it was to prevent getting dishonoured by the victors. And this happened only if defeat was imminent. The johars of Chittor was done in face of certain defeat in the hands of powerful enemies.

``Many years later, Babur was to remark:

``The Indians know how to die better than how to fight.``

Do you now that he was the first person to get cannons in the Indian subcontinent. I would say he used technology to his advantage.

And as per your long detailed essay about the warfare, such things can be written about the fall of the Mughal empire at the hands of the British, the fall of the Marathas and Sikhs at the hands of the British, the fall of the Maginot line , the fall of the Pakistani defence forces in Bangladesh

Surely defeat is an orphan.

But one thing I would like to add is the failure of teh Rajputs was because of disunity. Prithviraj routed Ghauri at Tarrain with the help pf Jaisigh(if I am right) but the internice b/t them say that he was defeated in the next war.

But the same thing happened to the Marathas, the Siks

Hence I would say that the real failure was no unity against the external force.

``Many Jat tribes settled in north India who were suspicious of Brahmin priests, rites and sacrifices found the practical simplicity of Sikhism and its freedom from caste appealing and became its main followers.``

Give me a break. Why are you dragging this poor brahmin into this. It was a custom to donate a families first son to the cause of the Khalsa. Also majority of the jats are still Hindu by faith. Also Guru Gobind himself raised the Khalsa to protect the native Dharma form the uncultured foreign forces.

``No conversions can survive in any land without conversions of the hearts. Unconvinced converts will quickly revert to their inner faiths as soon as they are unsupervised. ``

Not if generations pass practising the forced religion.

Also, conversions were for monetary benefits, personal reasons like tansen converted simplify to marry a muslim. Also, converting to islam helped some to escape death.

And please don`t say that conversion was not forcible. look at the history Sambhaji, netaji palkar, even Guru Gobind Singhjis sons are all testimony to this.

``They were originally casteless animists and not Hindu. ``

For me any one native to this land is a Hindu. Because for me it is not a religion but a culture in itself.

``Although Islam was avowedly a religion of peace it changed over the 1400 years of its history. In the early years it was the most liberal religion offering equality to all men and giving women better rights than had ever been known before. ``

That will even put the prophet to same.

The prophet himself lead his followers to loot the wealth of passing caravans. Infact he has given rules how to share a loot. This Allahs banda has to kill his maliks creations to fill the pockets of his followers.

And don`t forget that Islam spread through the Sword.

`` On his own authority he rejected 99% of the 600,000 contributions he had received.

On what basis did he select that 1% ?

``Did Colonial Britain exploit India`s wealth?``

So the Bengal famine was whose legacy?

Bengal was the richest province when the British came and became the poorest during their departure.