India Unvarnished

Urstruly #: 20

I am neither a historian nor a micro-biologist. Hence my observations may not be entirely correct. Best I know is that Mitochondrial DNA studies did indicate that first Human originated from Africa and should have originated from one source.

Migrations may have been in multiple directions. Murad Baig has given chronology of migration of civilization. I found that laughable. Does that mean that civilisations can not develop in parallel at two distant places? In that case, no Maya or Inca civilizations should have existed!!

regards

Urstruly #: 20

I am neither a historian nor a micro-biologist. Hence my observations may not be entirely correct. Best I know is that Mitochondrial DNA studies did indicate that first Human originated from Africa and should have originated from one source.

Migrations may have been in multiple directions. Murad Baig has given chronology of migration of civilization. I found that laughable. Does that mean that civilisations can not develop in parallel at two distant places? In that case, no Maya or Inca civilizations should have existed!!

regards

#17 macgupta

Mac, as to why people in the tropics have dark skin, the reason seems obvious to me. The pigment absorbs and dissipates the light energy. Without it we would burn to a crisp.

In reply to Satyavadi :

If all the Indians belong to the same or very similar gene-pool or a mixture of several of them, then the difference between the complexions shouldnt be this pronounced.

Answer : this hypothesis is not necessarily correct. Quoting a few sentences from Steve Jones again (reference is in earlier post) :

``Although genetics is all about inheritance, inheritance is certainly not all about genetics. Nearly all inherited characters more complicated than a single change in the DNA involve gene and environment acting together. It is impossible to sort them into convenient compartments``.

--

One recent published example is that the body adapts to starvation in ways that would leave one more prone to a disease like diabetes. Such adaptations affect babies in the womb -- a purely environmental and not genetic change. These adaptations can be thus inherited -- studies of survivors of Hitler`s death camps and their children and grandchildren seems to suggest that the grandchildren suffer the effects of grandmother having starved.

--

Back to Jones :

[If human groups have descended from a series of distinct ancestors] and ``the genes which change people`s appearance really do represent the remnants of this history, then the races of the world should be distinct from one another in a large sample of their genes and not just those for skin color.``

``Are the trends in skin color -- resulting, as they do, from changes in less than ten genes -- accompanied in parallel trends in the hundred thousand functional genes which make up a human being ?``

``Hundreds of different genes -- for blood groups, enyzmes and inherited variants on the surfaces of cells -- have been mapped...the trends in skin color are not accompanied by those in other genes. Instead, the patterns of variation in each system (be it blood group, enzyme or cell-surface antigen are largely independent``.

``We would have a very different view of the human race if we diagnosed it from blood groups, with an unlikely alliance between the Armenians and the Nigerians, who could jointly despise the B-free people of Australia and Peru.``

``If after a global disaster, only one group, the Albanians, the Papuans or the Senegalese, survived, most of the world`s biological diversity [in humans] would be preserved.``

-arun gupta

Since this is chowk, and there are many who seem to be mysitifeid about Kargil - here is an article by M. ILYAS KHAN in the Herald (this is part II)

excerpted in Indian Express

The previous part told us about the mysterious body bags coming down from the mountain tops, and the problem the elite faced in the Nothern Areas.

Why, o why cannot the govt public acknowldge these braves young human beings! But then for our elite these young men are not human beings they are animals (like that young goon who let his dog on a ten year old girl afew days back), and for the muj they are just cannon fodder.

What a pity - a pity really for the elite do not value human life if it is not one of theirs.

00000000000000000000000000

When Kargil cover-up failed, Pak showered money to douse the anger

August 12: Scrambling for damage control, regime doled out compensation to grieving

widows spinning off changes in local customs -- causing more anguish

At first, the Pakistan regime crudely tried to cover up the deaths of Pak soldiers in

Kargil, as highlighted in yesterday`s report. But when the body bags started piling up in

the Northern Areas, a damage-control exercise began: compensation was showered to

douse the anger of martyrs` families. And, in the process, triggering off an economy of

divide where war widows fought with their in-laws and families were split. The future

is grim for the martyrs families, says the concluding part of a report by M. ILYAS KHAN

in the Herald. Excerpts:

On June 26, 1999, political activists (in the Northern Areas) raised slogans against the

manner in which the Kargil operation was being handled. At least a dozen leaders were

later jailed on sedition charges. More trouble broke out in Skardu where militants of

Al-Badar Mujahideen started arriving in late May to act, according to locals, as decoys.

These militants forcefully occupied a house in July to establish their office, leading to an

exchange of gunfire between them and the local people.

To prevent further public outbursts, top state dignitaries started making whirlwind tours

of the Northern Areas (NA) and extravagant rewards were bestowed on the martyrs

and their families. The elevation of the paramilitary Northern Light Infantry (NLI) to the

status of a regular Pakistan Army regiment with all benefits and privileges, and the

bestowal of over 40 medals of courage on NLI personnel (the largest number ever won

by a single infantry regiment in Pakistan), appear to have partially appeased injured

pride.

Monetary rewards seemed to have played a significant role. Each bereaved family

received 500,000 rupees out of the prime minister`s package, 60,000 rupees from the

GHQ (through corps commander Pindi), and 30,000 rupees announced by Chief

Executive General Pervez Musharraf. In addition, each family has received anywhere

between 200,000 and 400,000 rupees. ``The government has washed all my wounds,``

says Guizari of village Damasu, the young widow of Sepoy Saboor Khan of 11-NLI who

has two children. She received 900,000 rupees, and may soon marry her brother-in-law.

But in the neighbouring Bejayot village, the widow of Sepoy Hazrat Qabool of 4-NLI

has refused to remarry. She has already received 900,000 rupees in compensation and

expects to receive a further 300,000. She has two sons and two daughters, and says she

will spend her life raising them.

Not all widows are as lucky. In village Manich (Yasin subdivision), the widow of Sepoy

Mohammad Isa (4-NLI), being issueless after three years of marriage, had to leave her

husband`s house in keeping with local tradition. This has given rise to disputes over the

distribution of compensation money between Isa and her parents. A more instructive

case is that of Havaldar Major Lalak Jan (12-NLI) the recepient of the

Nishan-e-Haider. Having lost his first wife in childbirth, he remarried five months

before his martyrdom. After his death, there were rumours that Lalak Jan`s elder brother,

Gul Sambar Khan, a Havaldar in 30-AK Regiment, had been given 9.6 million rupees as

compensation by the government. The widow kicked up a fuss and, when told that it was

not true, refused to believe her brother-in-law and went away to her parents` house.

Subsequently, Gul Sambar Khan apparently prevented the authorities from issuing the

prime minister`s reward of 500,000 rupees in the widow`s name, as is generally done.

He also prevented the settlement of Lalak Jan`s pension in his widow`s name. The

dispute is still pending.

``These disputes have become the order of the day,`` says Zarawar Khan, Lalak Jan`s

cousin and the general secretary of the Al-Madad Welfare Organisation, founded by

Lalak Jan three years ago. ``The widows are taking off to their parents` houses along

with their children and the compensation money, abandoning the parents of the martyrs

who, in some cases, are too poor and weak to fend for themselves.``

Contrary to the orthodox Muslim society in Pakistan, local NA customs encourage an

issueless widow to remarry at once, and do not prevent young widows with children from

remarrying if they so desire. But the Kargil rewards have changed all that. ``The war

widows are not remarrying because they will have to forego the pension, and because

they will only get a widower as their match, something which they may not like with all

the wealth they now possess,`` says Zarawar Khan. ``Even their parents would rather

keep the rich daughter home than encourage her to remarry. This is corrupting our riwaj

(custom).``

This came to the fore during the Haj season this year when the war widows of Kargil

were offered a free Haj package. While the policy required them to be accompanied by a

mehram from the husband`s family, widows attempted to fake the identification

documents of their own brothers and fathers to get them on board. ``We caught dozens

of cases of fake identity in Ghizer alone, while many of them were helped by conniving

officials to slip by,`` says a senior district administration official.

However, when the glitter of the new-found money rubs off, another set of

disappointments lies in store for these families. The war affectees may not get the

houses they were promised by former prime minister Nawaz Sharif. The present

government has already revoked that promise, offering instead a plot and 200,000 rupees

in cash. None of the families has received any of these benefits, and they are likely to

wait a long time before enough plots can be spared for them.

Second, they may end up chasing shadows in their bid to get the martyrs` children into

proper schools. The children were promised free education, boarding and food at NLI

schools with the condition that they cleared the primary classes at home. While more

than 1,000 children of the martyrs are yet to complete primary school, children past the

primary stage are reported to have been denied admission in some NLI schools.

``The martyrs have departed, but life goes on with all its simplicity, hardships, cunning

and deception,`` says Nawaz Khan Naji, chairman of the the Balawaristan National

Front. ``One only hopes that the lives of their children will not be treated as casually by

the rulers as were those of the martyrs.``

RE: Friend # 19

Thanks Friend, I have been looking for such a study for a very long time. Although, it follows scientific method but the results drawn are still speculative and inconclusive. Based on this common gene data, can we also draw the following two conclusions:

1. There is one common ancestor (plz dont drag religion into it)

2. The migration may be reverse i.e people from sub-continent migrated towards West-it is equally debatable.

We should also keep in mind that at present a good number of anthropologists are working on a common ancestor that originated in Africa. It might be of real interest to readers that ``genetic archeologists`` (I just invented this term) have found common genetic material between African and Europeon population. That also supports conclusion#1. (or does it?)

``WHO WERE INDIA`S ORIGINAL PEOPLE?``

Would Mr Baig care to counter the following?

[ Following summary is taken from Dr Subhash Kak`s article at http://www.sulekha.com/cgi-bin/comments.cgi?art_url=skak_indology#10]

-----

I add new biological evidence that suggests that the Indian stock has lived in the peninsula for at least 50,000 years.

T. Kivisild et. al., Deep common ancestry of Indian and western-Eurasian mitochondrial DNA lineages, Current Biology, Vol 9, No 22, pp 1331-134, 1999.

The summary is take verbatim from this paper:

``The first and the most profound layer of overlap between the

western-Eurasian and the Indian mtDNA lineage relates to haplotype U, a complex mtDNA lineage cluster with an estimated age of 51,000-67,000 years. We calculated the coalescence age essentially as described (ref 15,17) and estimate the split between the Indian and western-Eurasian U2 lineage as 53,000 +/- 4,000 years before present``.

``Typical western-Eurasian mtDNA lineage found in India belongs to haplogroups H,I,J, T,X and to subclass U1,U4, U5 and K haplogroup U. Frequencies of these lineages in Indian populations are more than an order of magnitude lower than in Europe:5.2% versus 70%. This finding might be explained by gene flow. Neverthless, we note that the frequency of these mtDNA haplotypes reveals neither a strong north-south, nor language-based gradient; they are found in both among Hindi speakers from Uttar Pradesh (6%) and Dravidians of Andhra pradesh (4%). Assuming that they are largely of western-Eurasian origin, we may ask when their spread started. We obtained divergence time of 9300 +/- 3000 years. This is an average over an unknown number of various founders and therefore, does not tell us whether there were one or many migration waves, or whether there was a continuous long-lasting gradual admixture. Their low frequency but still general spread all over India plus the estimated time scale, does not support a recent massive Indo-Aryan invasion, at least as far as maternally inherited genetic lineage are concerned. Furthermore, the spread of these western-Eurasian-specific mtDNA clusters also among Dravidic-speaking populations of India lends credence to the suggested linguistic connection between Elamite and Dravidian populations``.

``The supposed Aryan invasion of India 3000-4000 years before present therefore did not make a major splash in the Indian gene pool. This is especialy counter-indicated by the presence of equal, though very low, frequencies of the western Eurasian mtDNA types in both southern and northern india. Thus, the `Caucasoid` features of south Asians (Indians) may best be considered `pre-caucasoid` -that is, part of diverse north or north east western Eurasian and southern Asian populations over 50,000 years ago``.

----

satyavadi #14

Average doesn`t mean that every member of set has to be exactly average. There are variations in every group.

You have already answered part of your query when you say that color is also genetic. With a preference for white color, people tried to do be selective about choosing whiter mates. Naturally, groups who could do that more successfully were the one who occupied higher strata of society.

A reverse process also happened. People who were darker (or shell not having good looks) were pushed to lower jobs. (If is well known that even in todays interview process, a well looking person has advantage.)

``Hindu`` culture ocupied a very large area. Hence localised features and color pattern also developed and contributed to variety. This is not to say that migrations didn`t happen. Gandhar and Central Asia (Hunas, Kushans) were also inhabited by people who subscribed to basic principles of ``Hinduism``. These groups also intermingled.

Regards

A couple of points out of the million that could be made.

The author, Mr. Murad Ali Baig, lists Allchin & Allchin, ``Origins of a Civilization`` as one of the references. Is he aware that the Allchins contradict him on a whole host of things, including India`s Paleolithic and Neolithic ages, the rise of urbanism, the dates for inhabitation and civilization of southern India, and so on ?

Next, about skin color, the effect of climate, etc., on the various ``races`` of mankind, here are quotes and paraphrases from a relatively modern book ``The Language of Genes`` , Steve Jones, who is the editor of the Cambridge Encyclopedia of Human Evolution and is a professor of genetics in London.

``Another beauty -- and an important weakness -- of the theory of evolution by natural selection is that with a little imagination it is possible to come up with an explanation of anything.``

``There are several theories as to why humans evolved light skins as they migrated to the dismal climates of the north. None is completely satisfactory....``

``[Skin] cancer has probably not produced the global trend in color. First, it is rare even in whites, with only about one case per ten thousand people per year. More important, skin cancer is mainly a disease of the old. This means that those who die from it have already passed on their genes, including those for the color of their skin.``

[ The Vitamin D deficiency disease rickets, its prevalence as evidenced by ancient graves, and the advantage of fair skin in synthesizing vitamin D as a factor is discussed. ]

``Why black skin is common in the tropics is less clear. [Excessive Vitamin D production and toxicity is ruled out.] The black skins of tropical peoples may help in coping with vitamin destruction [in sunlight]. Another possibility is that the dark pigment prevents ultraviolet from destroying antibodies in the blood as it circulates through the skin. Yet another is ...

...

As usual, it is easy to make up stories about how selection may have favored certain genes, but none can be taken very seriously without more experiments to see which might be true.``

``Other patterns might also be due to climate. The woolly hair of Africans is said to act as an evaporating surface for sweat to cool the head down. The long fine noses of peoples from the Middle East may help to moisten the desert air before it reaches the lungs and the narrow eyes of Chinese to protect against the icy winds of the Asian plains. All this is guesswork.``

* * * * *

Please, all, remember that the archaelogy of India and the evolution of mankind are two among many subjects in which the answers that are likely to stand the test of time are not yet in.

-arun gupta

I think,as writer is asserting, that books written in olden times have more myth, and some truth and cannot be taken at face value.

Scientific enquiry is based on facts which can either substantiate or refute a claim.

As far as races are concerned, there are definitely North of Pakistan people who look more Greek than Asian. Tall height,blue eyes some crooked nose etc. Then there is probably some Arab, Persian Infuence on Punjab, Sind and Baluchistan. There are also some remnants of African trade.

As far as Brahmin, I have seen a few. I agree that they are fair colored, but not as heavily built. Then there is South Indians, short dark complexion with good wit.

Depending upon the tracing back and intermarriages, we can probably trace human heritage from an Adam and Eve of science. But how much common and how much different will depend upon how far we want to go back.

Oldest archeological record in Pakistan are probably from Moenjodaro where a great civilization existed probably 5000 years back, I think at the Indus valley.

At the same time there was also a great civilization in Babel (Current Iraq) and Egypt.

Since it is a high school thing, we read, trade among these with ships.

Skin Color:

Well Many Indians look like Mexicans. We should see if we are related. (Can only laugh at the thought). Seriously, In my family, there are both dark and fair people. Surprisingly, one of my cousins was fair as a child. After 7-8yrs. when I saw him, he was dark. I could not believe it. I asked, he said he has to move so much in the sun. May be my memory was wrong but I don`t think so. My cousin sister did not show those changes. Even the southern Europeans and northern europeans skin color is different enough. Some Indians if left in cold countries enough, will look like southern europeans but not Northern Europeans. On a web page I read, an American judge said about Indian ``It is so disconcerting to see a dark white man``.

Objectivity:

``Many Indians have a strange craving for unqualified praise and flattery about everything that is Indian``.. This itself shows the objectivity with which this is being done. I am not saying the above is wrong or right, just saying that an objective study will not make that assumption. That is such a subjective observation. It needs comparision of Indians with others to see if they have a ``strange`` craving or ``normal craving``. If the others also had this ``normal`` craving the history is distorted in the first place.

I might be wrong, but the people who visit chowk and their postings, does not show me enough knowlegde about India to be objective about it. (One said I.S.Johar when I asked did he know about ``johar``, women burning themselves to save.) This does not mean all are ignorant.

Second choosing chowk for objective study of Indian History is only laughable. Hey but I would be glad to be proven wrong. You need to be in university or someother place.

It is surprising that, it is assumed that the current theory is right. Why not pose theory like, ``Civilization begun in India and then spread to west``. I know people will laugh at it, but it shows that the question you ask is in a way, is the assumptions and bias you are starting with.

I don`t know the credentials of the author, but it is surprising that he has not included the recent excavations.

It is again foolish to discuss history with people like me. It is like the rocket scientists trying to discuss how to build rocket in chowk.com. He can convince me of almost anything.

I will be glad to find myself wrong, but I doubt I will be wrong.

Vijay

friend #13:

``- Skin color is due to Melanin, a pigment. It protects skin from Sun. People who had to work in sun slowly got adapted to that and Melanin content grew in those people. You must have seen only city people of north India or Brahmin/business man etc who don`t have to work in open. Farm workers in north India are also very dark. South Indian Brahmin were also traditionally not involved much in farming and outdoor vocations. That is reason behind their color remaining fair.

If they stay in sun for few years, they will also turn brown.``

Melanin does determine skin color. But the amount of melanin in a person is not solely determined by his exposure to sun. The most, excessive exposure to sun can do is, make a person`s skin a shade or two darker and the original color returns, once the exposure comes back to ``normal``.

But the amount of melanin in the skin that a person is born with is determined by his GENES.

So sun-exposure could be only marginally responsible for the darker complexion of a certain group of people.

Like,a white man will only be tanned by too much exposure to sunlight. Whites orginally from Europe, have been living in South Africa for like four centuries, and despite all the heat and some genetic mixing with blacks there, are still very much white, like their European cousins.

I understand, that this analogy is not entirely appropriate. But, it does have some significance.

If all the Indians belong to the same or very similar gene-pool or a mixture of several of them, then the difference between the complexions shouldnt be this pronounced. Specially when you compare the upper castes with the lowest ones, the dalits, the difference in average complexion IS striking.

Now, you could argue that around 3000 years of difference in environment (as far as exposure to sun is considered) could cause genetic alterations in the respective communities. Then my questions are:

1. IS 3000 years a long enough period to cause such genetic differences.

2. Also, can we assume that during this entire period and specially from the begining of this 3000 year period- when the caste related occupations were not so well-defined; all the people belonging to a particular group have been involved in distinct and mutually exclusive occupations, which caused significant differences in their exposure to sun.

If this is accepted as true, even then what explains the striking difference in complexion of the Brahmins of the South from the other castes there. There sure would have been other castes in

the South (like for e.g. traders) who didnt have to toil in the sun, like the farmers for e.g. Their exposure to sun, was probably not significantly more than that of the Brahmins. Then why this enormous difference?

3. In North India, there are a lot of upper and middle caste farming communities (Patels in Gujarat in e.g.). Even fo these communities, though they are darker than the Brahmins on an average, the complexion seems to be much fairer than the lowests on the rung, the Dalits, the former untouchables. What caused that?

4. Castes involved in similar occupations in the North and South are equivalent. And still there is some difference, in the complexion. Why?

5. The population of Punjab and Sindh is quite fairer and better built than the rest of the North Indians. What does that say?

Though, I think its easier to expalin this difference. Its due to more exposure to invaders and settlers from Arabia, Central Asia and Europe- mostly the Greeks.

Anyways, thanks in advance.

Satyavadi

satyavadi #: 11

Anyways, why do u think is that

Your three questions --

1. on an average the upper castes are fairer than the dalits, in any given region of India ?

2. on an average the North Indians are fairer than the South Indians?

3. a lot of South Indian Brahmins are extremely light complexioned, very much in contrast to the other castes there?

- Skin color is due to Melanin, a pigment. It protects skin from Sun. People who had to work in sun slowly got adapted to that and Melanin content grew in those people. You must have seen only city people of north India or Brahmin/business man etc who don`t have to work in open. Farm workers in north India are also very dark. South Indian Brahmin were also traditionally not involved much in farming and outdoor vocations. That is reason behind their color remaining fair.

If they stay in sun for few years, they will also turn brown.

Chowk Staff:

Can you put the number of interacts against each of the question that the author raises in the body of his article. Now, we have to go to the question and then its interacts. If you put the number of interacts (with possibly a direct link to the interacts) it would save readers several mouseclicks.

Thanks.

While you are at it, you might want to put a date against the interacts in the list that one finds on the right-hand side; it would tell readers whether there is anything new.

satish #9:

Very convincing arguments. A lot of times,I wonder why they taught the AIT in school, as if it was a well established fact of history. Colonial residue, I guess.

Anyways, why do u think is that

1. on an average the upper castes are fairer than the dalits, in any given region of India ?

2. on an average the North Indians are fairer than the South Indians?

3. a lot of South Indian Brahmins are extremely light complexioned, very much in contrast to the other castes there?

Thanks.

Satyavadi

No simple answeres, we can only guess from dearth of contradictory evidence, the scientists have been collecting for last few centuries (especially since Darwins theory).

Though scientists suspects homo sapiens sapiens began their journey out of Africa about 50 thousand years ago, but they also have found mining tools in Pennsylvania and Swaziland that dates back to 100,000. Scientists have also found modern human skulls in Brazil dating 100,000.

Archeology is full of discrepencies that cannot be easily explained. For example, scientists say that red Indians came to America over twelve thousand years ago through a bridge connecting America with Alaska that went under water twelve thousand years ago, but there are very similarties between Indian civilizations like Aztec, Mayan and Eastern civilization that cannot be just coincident.

There is no scarcity of theories on alternative history of humanity from professional archeologists and hobbyiest. Some authors like Zecharia Sitchin, Alan Alford Graham Hancock and Erin Von Deniken have theories about human contact with aliens. Some says humans were genetically enhanced to create slave race for mining operations. And old gods of indians and egyptian, and other civilizations were aliens.