India Unvarnished

The best answer to your article Murad is given in the following link. You amaze me with your ignorance! I hope this article will open your eyes to what is real out there.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ibn_al-rawandi/review.html

I suggest that the author visit this great site on Hinduism and Indian Culture and history, before writing any `unemotional stuff.`

A Tribute to Hinduism.

http://www.atributetohinduism.com

Hello Mr.Murad,

you have done a wonderful job with this article, no doubt about it. but I strongly feel your predjuidice being a muslim towards hinduism and India. Let me clarify why? as per your theory, you claim Avesta being superior than vedas. Definately Zorasthrians and Hindus are two branches evolved from a common group but I am sure the philosophy behind hinduism is much superior to zorathrians since their philosophy didn`t survive that long. they were never able to convince other races to follow them or never produced any other superior faith. Finally they disappeared or userped by islam. THis always happens to a weak religion. contrary to that, Hinduism not only gave birth to other religions like budhism, Jainism, sikhism etc. It was able to flourish inspite of suffering for decades under islam. Arabs learned off and on, again and again and passed on the knowledge to westeners. Islam itself is a step child of Judaism and created to fill the vaccum left by Zorasthrian on the east and christianity on the west. Tell me what was left to these nomads of desert. So, Muhamed carefully drafted a copy of old testament with in the name of islam and started a rampage to convert all the kafirs as you may call under the name of god.

India over the centuries accomodated all sorts of people starting from aryans to parthians, schithians, bactrian,shakas,huns or mongols. All of them slowly got absorbed by indian society except Islam. only because they came with a religion that they wanted to enforce on the local people with much superior philosphy. another things is that indians were never interested in expanding their territory beyound pamirs as they they what lies beyond that. Also they had some soft corner that prevented them from routing their enemies otherwise prithviraj would have killed Gajni. All these kindness were carefully exploited by the invaders enable them to rule this country. being an indian you should have shown less prijuidice towards islam.

Thanks,

Jai Hind

This is a test!!

This article makes many false claims with the futile intention of tarnishing India`s image.

Besides providing a long list of books(most of the books are outdated) in the bibliography section - the article doesn`t contain any information from these books.

There are no evidences or proofs provided by the author.

Increasing number of scientists are accepting Vedic civilization as the oldest. The missing chapters of Egyptian civilization and the World History are now available.

In order that one gets one`s facts right read the following books that provide a undeniable list of facts with evidences. Decide for yourself.

Proof of Vedic Culture`s Global Existence

by Stephen Knapp

Paperback - 353 pages (October 2000)

World Relief Network; ISBN: 0961741066

The Search of the Cradle of Civilization: New Light on Ancient India

by Georg Feuerstein, Subhash Kak (Contributor), David Frawley (Contributor)

Hardcover (October 1995)

Unknown; ISBN: 0835607208 ; Dimensions (in inches): 1.21 x 9.34 x 6.

India Once Ruled the Americas

by Gene D. Matlock

Paperback - 200 pages (December 2000)

Writer`s Showcase Press; ISBN: 0595134688 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.54 x 8.96 x 5.98

The Celestial Key to the Vedas: Discovering the Origins of the World`s Oldest Civilization

by B. G. Sidharth

Paperback - 192 pages (October 1999)

Inner Traditions Intl Ltd; ISBN: 0892817534 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.54 x 9.02 x 5.93

Vimana Aircraft of Ancient India and Atlantis (Lost Science Series)

by David Hatcher Childress, Ivan T. Sanderson (Introduction)

Paperback (January 1992)

Adventures Unlimited Pr; ISBN: 0932813127 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.72 x 9.01 x 6.04

Vedic ``Aryans`` and the Origins of Civilization: A Literary and Scientific Perspective

by Navaratna S. Rajaram, David Frawley

Paperback (August 15, 1995)

World Heritage Press; ISBN: 1896064000

Ancient Cities of the Indus Valley Civilization

by Jonathan Mark Kenoyer

Paperback - 264 pages (December 1998)

Oxford Univ Press; ISBN: 0195779401 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.99 x 11.08 x 9.12

Vedic Physics

by Raja Ram Mohan, Ph.D. Roy, Raja Mohan, Ph.D. Roy, Subhash Kak, Raja Ram Mohan Roy

Paperback - 268 pages (March 5, 1999)

Golden Egg Publishing; ISBN: 0968412009 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.65 x 8.51 x 5.57

Chaotic Universe : From the Planck to the Hubble Scale (Contemporary Fundamental Physics)

Hardcover (May 2001)

Nova Science Publishers, Inc.; ISBN: 1560729775

Politics of History, Aryan Invasion Theory and the Subversion of Scholarship

by Navaratna S. Rajaram

Paperback - 244 pages 1 edition (March 1, 1995)

South Asia Books; ISBN: 818599028X

vedic Symbolism

by Sri Aurobindo, Sri M. P. Pandit (Compiler), M. P. Pandit (Compiler), Aurobindo Ghose

Paperback - 122 pages 1 edition (December 1998)

Lotus Press; ISBN: 0941524302 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.37 x 8.54 x 5.46

Yishvara 2000 : The Hindu Ancestor of Judaism Speaks to This Millennium

by Gene D. Matlock

Paperback - 208 pages (January 2001)

iUniverse.com; ISBN: 0595150128 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.55 x 9.02 x 5.98

Jesus and Moses Are Buried in India, Birthplace of Abraham and the Hebrews

by Gene D. Matlock

Paperback - 444 pages (November 2000)

iUniverse.com; ISBN: 0595127711 ; Dimensions (in inches): 1.15 x 9.04 x 6.07

Vedic Physics

by Raja Ram Mohan, Ph.D. Roy, Raja Mohan, Ph.D. Roy, Subhash Kak, Raja Ram Mohan Roy

Paperback - 268 pages (March 5, 1999)

Golden Egg Publishing; ISBN: 0968412009 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.65 x 8.51 x 5.57

The Vedic Prophecies: A New Look into the Future

by Stephen Knapp

Paperback - 240 pages (April 1, 1998)

World Relief Network; ISBN: 096174104X

Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy

by Richard L. Thompson

Paperback - 251 pages (November 1989)

Bhaktivedanta Book Trust; ISBN: 0892132698

In this case the books are written by scientists and indologists and not charlatans like Murad Ali Baig.

ONE OF THOSE FUTILE PAKISTANI ATTEMPTS TO TARNISH THE IMAGE OF INDIA

The author has made a major blunder.(He even looks like a seasoned fool)

In his futile attempt of tarnishing India`s image he has forgotten some key points.

1.Until recently India consisted of pakistan,afghanisthan, the South-east Asia and varous parts of asia.

2.Further back in history there are evidences that India or Bharat was spread out over all the continents. Nearly the entire globe was Bharat.

3.The Vedic culture( that has been ridiculed here) had a Global existence.

4. Everyone by default was a Santana Dharmic.

5. Last but not the least none of his answers to the 65 odd questions are conclusive or have valid arguments leave alone any evidences to support it. Infact most of them don`t address the question itself but in turn just beats around the bush. The intention of the author seems not to convince the readers but to cheat them by confusing them.

Lastly, the writeup is just a piece of CRAP.

I doubt the sanity of the person who have/or would trust in what the author has said.

The author (under the guidance of the Pakistan authorities) have concocted a 38 page misinterpretation of India. The two unnecessary references of Pakistan is intentional. T

he article is just another one of the Pakistan Moral boosters. Pakistan doesn`t have a history - all the history it made in the past fifty years were regarding to two lost wars and terrorism.

The article contains only misinterpreted comments - no actual research findings, details a list of rumours than actual facts, a listing of sources wherefrom nothing was taken - it all came from his vivid imagination.

The author speaks about Aurangzeb and his taxes - he ignores the valour of the Maratha against Aurangzeb.

To quote the author

``The only Krishna in the Rigveda was no god but the leader of the Rakshashas and the armies of dark Dasyus who Indra slew and skinned.``

First of all no one ever claimed the mention Krishna in the Rig Veda. Krishna was never supposed to have an army of dark Dasyus - he had an army of Yadavas(they weren`t dark in any respect). The author is a fool to the highest extent - he doesn`t understand the chronological order of the Rig veda(first) and then the Mahabharata.

A rational human can easily see through the deliberate attempt of the author to tarnish Krishna.

This is exemplary enough to underline the fact that the author is a `MUDHA` who has satisfied the dumb Pakis and thus has earned the pathos of the Indian people.

Pity the Pakis cannot hold back their jealousy for India. Failed were the attempts of 2 wars, failed were the decades of terrorism, now they have supposedly employed a mouthpiece(supposed to be an Indian) who thinks can put a unemotional argument - but instead it turns out to be emotional one for him - He and his Paki Counterparts sit crying gaping onwards the barbaric land they call PAKISTAN

I quote :

``Two hundred years later, the celebrated Al-Bukhari, a devout Muslim scholar, travelled the Muslim world to write most of the Hadith or the sayings and examples from the prophet`s life, that now forms a part of the Koran. ``(Q56)



Never before have I seen such a blatant lie about islam being uttered by a person donning a muslim name. It is preposterous to label hadith as part of the Koran. Hadith is distinct from the koran as they were the words or actions of the prophet, and the Koran is purely the words of divine reveletion. Perhaps this writer, having done so much research should have consulted a 10 year old muslim, and easily avoided making this mis statement.

ALso , i quote :

``There had been several versions of the utterances of the prophet during the 23 years after he received the revelation from Gabriel.``(Q56)

Please, for God`s sake, get a life! several different versions of utterances of the prophet. Again, the writer is deliberately trying to blurr the distinction between hadith, and quran. THERE WERE NO DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF THE QURAN, as the prophet himself had supervised the compilations, but making his companions MEMORIZE, WORD for WORD, LETTER FOR LETTER, the entire quran. In the time of Usman, (caliph), he merely had the entire quran written in one book form.

Zaid bin Harith compiled Hadith, NOT the quran. THe process described in the writer`s ill informed writing was pertaining to hadith. There has been no doctoring of the quran, being a fundamental beleif of islam, that Quran shall never be doctored.

I advise Chowk.com to PLEASE approach knowledgable writers to write on issues of religion... not quasi-intelligent species like the writer here

Murad Ali Baig #

Your observation on Indian open society and Pakistan closed society may be right.

But can you consider the little effect of education on us educated jahils Pakiustanis.

And large effect of education on BROAD minded Indians.

At least give credit to Pakistanis that they are sincere in whatever they belief and education has not produced bigotry to a large extent.

wassalam!

The following response is from Murad Baig


Since my last reply on October 17th, there have been 22 responses. Most have been uncomplimentary and a few quite appreciative.

In `Unvarnished’, I had tried not to be dogmatic and had mainly attempted to make readers look out of the box of conventional history and folklore to consider many alternatives to the popular and sometimes dubious ideas about the Indian subcontinent’s varied past. I have sought to question these rather than assert that another point of view was correct.

I am VERY WILLING to stand corrected on any point where I may be in error. Actually the voluminous responses have often been very instructive and I will readily incorporate many corrections in my long overdue next draft.

Pullu may have a point in saying that the conclusions in this essay indicate a strong debt to Persia. Actually the full story of Persia’s huge contribution to the irrigation, buildings, arts, music, food, literature, language and culture of the Indian subcontinent has never been written. It hugely influenced not only India but also Arabia and West Asia.

Actually, but for the accident of Muhammad being born in Arabia, most of the wealth of its so-called Islamic culture were the contributions of the older civilisations of Babylon, Persia and Egypt. Even Sufiism predates Islam as the Persian `Sophists’ had been around even in Alexander’s time. Later they added many spiritual spins to orthodox Islam.

The Indian subcontinent has been subject to these and many other influences and has absorbed them to make them part of its own evolving ethos. Very little is absolutely original in any society and every country, including the aforementioned ones, develops its own elaborations that gradually becomes a part of its own culture. We can all be proud of our creations and need have no shame if some of the roots began elsewhere.

It is also true that there is some element of Brahmin bashing. But this is not anything personal against the Brahmins as a caste for they have also been praised as the keepers of knowledge and who have had a huge role in the shaping of our ethos. Positively they made major contributions to philosophy, literature and intellect. But it cannot be denied that they also erected and maintained an abhorrent caste system that was to be the downfall of the country.

I do not agree that the indigenous people of India were automatically Hindu. I believe that the earliest people in India, as in all lands, had no `religion’. They were then, as many I have met in the mountains and forests of India still are, simple worshippers of animistic spirits of mountains, rocks, streams, trees, etc. Deities with many local names. No priests no religion.

`Hinduism’ as a `religion’ needed Brahmin priests, the caste system, Vedic verses and rituals. And these too changed through the ages. Vedic deities like Indra and Nesatyas were superceded by the Puranic deities of Shiv and Vishnu that emerged in the declining years of Buddhism while the worship of Ram and Krishna only emerged during the declining years of Mughal rule.

Dharma, karma, himsa, ahimsa, etc., may be Sanskrit words but Sanskrit like all languages took loan words from and gave loan words to other earlier and later languages. Many self-proclaimed champions of India’s culture are surprisingly ignorant about India’s real Sanskriti. Many who complacently believe that Sanskrit is the mother of all languages would be horrified to know that before modern Sanskrit codified by Panini in the 4th century BC, there were still older Sanskrit languages that were the daughters of an even more ancient language similar to an extinct old Persian.

They would be shocked to learn that Devanagri, the script of modern Sanskrit, was India’s fifth script and that the earliest sacred writings were in Khoroshti that, like Persian was written from right to left. Then came Brahmi lipi. The oldest text in classical Sanskrit dates to Rudradaman, after the time of Christ, or four centuries after Ashoka’s inscriptions in Pali. Devanagri itself seems to have come from south India and had probably evolved from the older Akkadian and Sumerian cuneiform of ancient Babylon.

Language, culture, traditions and religion have never been constant. Even the word Hindu was not originally the name of a religion but just a geographical expression coined by the Persians to describe their 19th province of western India. All people living beyond the Indus or Sindhu were described as Hindu. By this definition every Pakistani, Indian and Bangladeshi is Hindu.

It was no different with Christianity or Islam that evolved over the generations and had many good and bad champions. These revealed religions and their champions have much to be proud of and ashamed of as well. These were evangalistic religions that strived to convert those who they considered unbelievers who needed to be saved from idolatory and ignorance. The pity is that some chauvinist Hindus today want to imitate their intolerance and aggressive evangalism.

I have never said that Hindus are weak/corrupt and that Muslims are smart/honest. No race or religion is good/bad per se and there are many examples of either. And I have no desire to go to Pakistani as I feel, despite many imperfections, that there is much greater freedom of thought in India.

Dost Mittar, I am not being an apologist for anyone. The arrogance and narrow intolerance of so many Muslim rulers, clerics and their followers is appalling. Tragically all religions are tolerant and magnanimous in their times of greatness and become narrow and intolerance with the bitterness that follows periods of their decline. Perhaps some of the well documented examples of such intolerance need to be highlighted.

I agree with most of Mojahirs observations and am grateful for his elaborations.

Ghulam is right that the early questions are simplistic but it is surprising how many people believe India was the oldest civilisation, that most Indians originated in India, and that the varnas were ordained by god, Sanskrit was the mother of all languages and that the Aryans originated in India, etc. I have merely tried to question such dogmatism and put such prejudices in a factual perspective.

The Golden Bough by James George Frazer is a classic defining the magical roots of all religions. All religions began with simple spirituality and died when they became overwhelmed by an excessive baggage of ritual and superstition.

Krashid is absolutely right. The Hadith is not part of the Koran but is usually read with it to interpret any point of theology.

Part of the problem was that Brahmins made common folklore into virtual scripture unlike the epic myths and legends of other great civilisations. So many Indians feel criticism of myth is a virtual assault on their culture. They even codified even sculpture, medicine and other basic crafts into sacred shastras. While these contain the collective wisdom of many centuries, they also killed individuality and creativity.

Thank you Smellycat for your elaboration on the Kashi Vishwanath temple. The example shows how there can be many reasons for destroying temples and that myth and history are sometimes hard to separate. In fact there are many contradictions in Aurangzeb’s fairly well documented history. He was much more pragmatic and tolerant in the early part of his reign and even endowed some 36 temples including one at Chitrakoot that I visited three months ago. In his last bitter years, in what began as a fight against the Shia rulers of Golkonda and Bijapur, he stayed in the Deccan and alienated almost all his old allies including the Rajputs and stirred up the rebellions of the Marathas and Sikhs. During this period, many temples were demolished not only on his orders but even by some of his Hindu Amirs who thought it bring them Imperial favour.

Ghazni’s temple (and palace) destruction seems to have been almost entirely motivated by loot. His annual excursions reached many different rich targets from 1000 AD. A city near Peshawar in 1001, Bhatia on the Jhelum, a Muslim city in Multan. A great citadel and temple in Kangra in 1008 in whose vaults, the Shahis had accumulated 180 kilos of gold, 2 tonnes of silver, other booty valued at 70 million dirhams and a complete house of silver. Thanesar followed in 1010 ``with plunder impossible to recount``. Mathura followed in 1018 and Kanauj the following year. Muhammad returned with 20 million dirhams, 53,000 slaves and 350 elephants. He only targeted Somnath in 1025 where a reported 50,000 devotees allowed themselves to be slaughtered. The booty was so huge that his armies staggered back with great difficulty facing raiding bandits on the way. He was no religious fanatic and even had a Hindu army fight his Muslim rivals in Central Asia. He died in 1030.

It is difficult to be absolutely objective in history. Many facts can be disputed and even with these several different theories can be sincerely held. There are also many myths that breed prejudice and discord.

I do not wish to either praise or condemn anyone and have tried to avoid taking hard positions but to pose interesting and plausible counterpoints to some conventional ideas. I have attempted to challenge the socially damaging preconceived prejudices held by so many and stimulate some freethinking about our origins, religion, culture and history. The strong reactions confirm that many readers may also need to open their own minds. I am happy to have generated considerable intelligent response and also sorry if I have upset anyone.

i am surprised at teh ire in the soul that this article has caused. after all it is not as if murad ali baig has any standing as historian (a degree in history is not even near enough) or even commentator in india.

beyond cars, which he write on extensively, he has no credibility in the indian media.

right now i am sure mr baig must be fancing himself to be an intellectual under attack for these tirades against him! when he`s not even an intellectual to begin with. so dont credit him with this status.

I think he has exposed his ignorance enough in this article where purports to answers questions about indian and pakistani civilization (for they were the same till a 50 years ago)that serious historians are still working out. lets not give him more importance than he deserves.

Mr. Baig

I spent my whole night reading your article 38 pages long.

It gave me some idea of Philosophies in India.

One point I need to clarify.

You have stated that Hadith is part of Koran.

How did you reach that conclusion.

A Pakistani net-friend recently advised me to visit Chowk.com. This was my first visit. I`m already wondering if I should visit ever again. Reason: This article by Mr. Baig. I have nothing against this frustrated elederly gentleman. I`m surprised thought that the Chowk editor should ask a successful PR person to write serious articles on issues which even highly trained and venerated historians find difficult to handle.

My particular reference is to the articles last point: impact of independence. I`m shocked that Mr. Baig sees nothing - `no thing` - to say it in Jean Luc Goddard`s fashion - positive in independent India.

It is stupendous how he dismisses the neat result of world history`s most amazing struggles for freedom as `sudden empowerment of numerous interest groups`. He finds at least hundred years of freedom movement `sudden`.(and here I`m not even considering the numerous tribal and other grassroots uprisings before 1857, on which modern historians are putting increasing emphasis).

His sweeping comment that the British had no role in India`s impoverishment would put all modern British historians to shame. Clearly Mr.Baig has not the foggiest idea how colonialism operated in India in classical fashion. I suggest he does some reading on how the British purposefully interfered into the development of industrialization and the market in India. The second volume of the Cambridge Economic History of India (Habib & Roychaudhury) would be a good book to begin with.

That India has been able to preserve democracy as a political system despite all the poverty and hunger is no significance Mr.Baig? Remember how India`s illeterate millions thwarted Indira Gandhi`s effort to subvert democracy? Would he please stick his neck out a little, have a look around and tell us how many developing countries have a robust free media as India does? China? Pakistan? Sri Lanka? Afghanistan? The East European countries? The African nations? The Latin American states? Only last year I had an opportunity to interact face to face for three weeks with media specialists coming from 25 countries around the. All of us were between 30 & 40 years of age. We stayed together and became friends. This was in the US. I returned home a proud man, because our democracy matched the very best in the world.

Doesn`t Mr.Baig have any idea of the progress India has made in the fields of Science & Technology, Agriculture and medicine.

Yes, there have been failures. `Little victories and big defeats` -- to say in tune with Joan Baez. But let us not forget these very important victories, as we shouldn`t ignore the gravity of our failures either. Forty per cent of our people continue to hover around the poverty line. An ominous - but also artificial, I know for certain - storm of communal hatred is threatening to tear the country apart. Worst of all people are slowly losing faith in the judiciary: How can they not after the Narmada verdict. All this is true. Yet it will be worthwhile to remember for how many years developed countries like the US, Britain, Germany, France, Japan etc. have been independent of any long term foreign occupation. A comparison will surely show India`s independence in much better light than Mr. Baig tries to project.

As for the dear Editor(s) of Chowk.com, catering such articles will only widen the estrangement between the people of India and Pakistan. Simply because it`s based on a total misunderstanding of history. We have bled enough constantly hurt by the barbed wires of disinformation, hatred and mistrust. We can do without any more untruths.

NILANJAN HAJRA

CALCUTTA

WEST BENGAL

INDIA

After reading this ``scholarly article`` by Murad Ali Baig, one sad conclusion can easily be made.

If one has right political connections and rich dads, even a stupid person can become general manager of a company in India. On brighter side, it shows that claims of descrimination againsts Muslims are false. If even an idiot like Murad can become a GM, intelligent muslims can achieve much more.

Amateur Historians do more harm to the cause of History than good... the guy looks like the most gullible of people in his photograph.

In all this Murad bashing that is going on, I want to say one thing: I know that Murad actually gets on to the road by car, train, plane whatever and checks out the local traditions, the folklore, the geography . . . the unwritten but often ``sung`` histories passed down . . . and then comes to his hypo-thesis.

I think Murad`s conjectures or conclusions beat those by most of us thumping keyboards.

Then again, maybe I am wrong?