India Unvarnished

Pullu # 64

BHARAT MATA ZINDABAD

PAKISTAN MATA ZINDABAD

PULLU MATA ZINDABAD

URSTRULY MATA ZINDABAD

Kabuliwala # 66

Thanks for keeping the record straight.

Pullu!

Your remarks

Hindustan MQM Bhai Bhai. is very derogatory.

You cannot put a Charia and Gaf Altaf with Hindustan.

If you equate Hindustan with MQM Bhai Bhai then you are justifying not only in killing Kashmiris but you will be justified in killing Hindus, Christians and Muslims.

I don`t think Hindustan is as bad as you are trying to depict.

KabuliWallah #61

I would ask you on a purely scholarly level, why and how did scholars not believe in ascetion.

Because all the points are indicate it.

Scientifically,it is difficult to believe.

But when he returned from his trip, Meccans doubted it just for the same reason, it is humanly impossible. But history records that he told them about caravans he saw on his way and which was later verified when caravan came. Although he never saw Masjid Aqsa in his life, but he told accurately about it and so on and so forth.

Can you put your scholarly comments and/or references on this.

Kafir k Khan !

Get out of your castle.

Even if Mohajir are relagated to bottom.

Still Pervez Musharraf and majority of ministers are at bottom.

Moreover Mohajir and MQM is not synonymous.

For more of Murad, those of you interested, he is likely to be around Detroit and the Bay Area starting this weekend 20th August `00 onwards . . . I am sure chowk will forward emails to him for up-front queries . . . especially on that juicy bit about how Indo-Pak foreign policy seems to have been written by his father (Indian side) and taya-chacha-uncle (Pak side)!!!

Catch the guru as he wings it to the USA . . .

re: krashid # 71

let me first explain that I am not a scholar, but only a student...but with my meagre knowledge I`ll try to back up what I have said...as far as I know, Muslims believe that Quran is divine revelation and thus is eternal...however man`s understanding of it is not and keeps changing...but that
for another discussion...the Quran, as far as I know, does not mention the Prophet`s journey to heaven or any of the fine details
...it is through the several ahadith
that the tradition mentions and gives evidence of the prophet`s journey to heaven...the hadith is not God`s word and is a human endeavour and thus is not eternal...furthermore, the different ahadith are not the same and several of them contradict each other...this is why, I believe, scholars are not too sure about the Prophet`s ascension to heaven...but my premise is that even if the ahadith contradict each other on different issues and even if they maybe untrue, should it matter if the matn is beneficial to Muslims? Why should the isnaad be given more preference, especially when the ahadith is a human endeavour, rather than the matn? If the matn, even if the isnaad that has been used to deduce it is faulty, is beneficial to people and improves their lives, then shouldn`t it be accepted? I think this is the same stand as that of Imam Shafi.

regards,

Kabuli

re: krashid # 71

let me first explain that I am not a scholar, but only a student...but with my meagre knowledge I`ll try to back up what I have said...as far as I know, Muslims believe that Quran is divine revelation and thus is eternal...however man`s understanding of it is not and keeps changing...but that
for another discussion...the Quran, as far as I know, does not mention the Prophet`s journey to heaven or any of the fine details
...it is through the several ahadith
that the tradition mentions and gives evidence of the prophet`s journey to heaven...the hadith is not God`s word and is a human endeavour and thus is not eternal...furthermore, the different ahadith are not the same and several of them contradict each other...this is why, I believe, scholars are not too sure about the Prophet`s ascension to heaven...but my premise is that even if the ahadith contradict each other on different issues and even if they maybe untrue, should it matter if the matn is beneficial to Muslims? Why should the isnaad be given more preference, especially when the ahadith is a human endeavour, rather than the matn? If the matn, even if the isnaad that has been used to deduce it is faulty, is beneficial to people and improves their lives, then shouldn`t it be accepted? I think this is the same stand as that of Imam Shafi.

regards,

Kabuli

In reply to Pankaj : the separation into genes and environment is too simplistic, in my opinion, to really explain anything.

Take height, for example, with the hypothetical maximum height encoded in the genes, and the actual height determined by environment. So, for example, the Japanese in general may have a ``7 foot limit`` encoded in their genes.

Well, here are some questions --

1. How do you determine the ``height limit`` from the existing anthropometric data ?

2. Suppose it turns out that the encoding in the genes for height is simply the timetable for the turning on and off of production of Human Growth Hormone. So, for example, in Japanese, compared to Europeans, children produce less HGF per unit body weight, and hence ultimately end up shorter. If Human Growth Hormone, which we know how to manufacture, is administered, i.e., it is part of the environment, then what happens to the genetic ``height limit`` ?

Intelligence is infinitely more complicated than height, I think.

-arun gupta

Re to MacGupta

``1. How do you determine the ``height limit`` from the existing anthropometric data ?

2. Suppose it turns out that the encoding in the genes for height is simply the timetable for the turning on and off of production of Human Growth Hormone. So, for example, in Japanese, compared to Europeans, children produce less HGF per unit body weight, and hence ultimately end up shorter. If Human Growth Hormone, which we know how to manufacture, is administered, i.e., it is part of the environment, then what happens to the genetic ``height limit`` ? ``

First let me deal with your second question. Essentially your statement that the genes might contain the timetable for turning on or off the HGF, conveys the same info as my theory. There must be some environmental ``nutrition`` agents that govern the duration of opening of this switch else how can you account for the change in avg height with improvement in ``nutrition`` factors. However if HGF is administered externally then the closed system,`` genes+ environment`` we were analysing, changes, and a third external factor has to be considered. I guess the genetic height limit would still be the same but the additional growth in height has to be attributed to this administering of the HGF. Thus the height limit can be dictated by genetics only till any other foreign factor does not pop in.

Now I come to your first question. I think after the functionality of each gene and their mutual interaction in the human genome is established, the future research can either prove or disprove it. For example, you can clone a human, grow him up in a different controlled enviro and measure the difference between both humans regarding their various traits. Such kind of experiments can give us valuable insights into the interaction of enviro with the genetics to produce a complex human being and assess the relative contribution of each.

KabuliWallah #74

I agree with you on the matter of Hadith.

For me it is only a historical source, with maximim possible authenticity that can be achieved after 3 or 4 generations regarding methods of collection of Hadith.

Now why I see it in this context is simple. It is an important source to understand application of Koran and their meaning. Considering the general terms and ways used in Koran it can be interpreted in any way. With Hadith there are some 70 sects in Islam, without Hadith there would be 700,000 sects or more.

Keeping this discussion aside.

In Surah Israa (I forgot its other name), the ascention is given.

And as I said, there are no other reliable historical resources except Hadith and some early history, which substantiate it by the events of like Prophet PBUH told about the caravan in its way or about Masjid-e-Aqsa.

That is why I asked you what source are you utilizing.

Re MacGupta

I am also interested in knowing your own theory to explain all the available facts on human traits. BTW will I be intruding your privacy if I ask your profession, education and age. :)

Cheers

Re: Krash-Id

Why do you always seem to be suffering from PMS? In all posts, all topics, and all the time. Just chill out man...have a drink if it helps you.

Re to Mac Gupta

A small correction on second reading. It is the ``quota`` of traits say height that is determined by genetics,ie maximum as well as minimum value. So genetics of an average Japanese dictate his height to be between say 4.5 to 7 ft. His actual height may be the result of ``nutrition `` factors which govern the actual realisation of the potential. Upon your objection that it is a simplistic and ``decoupled`` model, I I agree that some coupling of these both factors may not be denied but the extent of coupling can only be determined by the sort of experiments I described in the last post. Anyway I found this simple model to be quite helpful in explaining various observations.Also the range of quota may again give us relative importance of genetic factors Vs ``nutrition`` factors. One check on the model: Monozygotic twins(or clones) sharing the same genotype can be grown in different enviro and be administered different levels of hypothesised ``nutrition`` factors to get the quantitative parameters for the model. Let me reiterate that such a sort of model is currently accepted only with respect to IQ and this is only an attempt to generalise the basic idea which may or may not hold for other things.

Cheers

re: krashid #79

Sorry, for the late reply, I was touring Delhi

The reason that I said what I said is Prof. Haq, the professor of religion in Rutgers Univeristy. He is a very learned man and respected by most people at the university. If I`m not mistaken, he said that there is no evidence of the ascension in the Quran. I took his word at face value. Unfortunately, I left my copy of the Quran at my home in the US and so I`ll have to wait till I get to a library to look up surah Israa.

As for me, I`d rather look for clues in the Quran than go search for history in the Hadith, but thats me. I`d only use the Hadith as a support for my views in arguments with my opponents . The only problem being there`d probably be hadith to support me as well as my opponent.

Kabuli

In reply to Pankaj : I`m a physicist and electronics engineer by education, a software systems analyst by current profession, and not old enough to be senile.

All I`m saying about genes and environmental effects in the expression of any but the simplest of traits is that it is a complex function of both -- f(genes, environment) cannot be broken simply into h(genes) * k(environment).

-arun gupta