Faith, Religion and National Direction

tahmed231 is one of the most insightful contributors on the Chowk boards - he calls a spade a spade, and is one of the most objective from either side of the Indo-Pak divide. I wish we could rank these post based upon usefulness! Tamhmed321 will be on top.

tahmed231 is one of the most insightful contributors on the Chowk boards - he calls a spade a spade, and is one of the most objective from either side of the Indo-Pak divide. I wish we could rank these post based upon usefulness! Tamhed321 will be on top!

bahmad #115:

All you wrote is tangential to the main question, which you have so far evaded: Is it fair to group Pakistan with India w.r.t. to minority rights? Or in other words, is India placed in a better position as compared to Pakistan as far as minority rights are concerned?

Satyavadi

Kabuli #122:

Thanks for this post of yours. You said a lot of what I would have wanted to.

Satyavadi

PS: Does your name come from Tagore`s Kabuliwallah?

Ras Siddiqui (replu #16) wrote:

``A Z A D I

A glorious fragrance, not chambeli but

Z afran from the Vale continues to call like an

A zan where all spiritual journeys commence

D evotion to a path, the road to freedom

I mmersed in your elixir, God is one.``

Azadi is like motherhood and apple-pie. Everyone has to be for it, everyone must pay at least lip service to it. But Azadi is meaningless if it is at the cost of fundamental rights of a minority, howsoever unpopular it might be. Shias, Sunnis, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs have a long history of peaceful and friendly coexistence in Jammu & Kashmir. ``Kashmir Banega Pakistan`` is not a voice of the residents of Jammu & Kashmir. It is a voice of those in the cazntonments of Pindi and Lahore who have their own agenda - of those that have little time for Azadi of even those that live within the boundaries of Pakistan, let alone for those that live beyond the borders in Jammu & Kashmir. The long line of dictators from ``Field Marshal`` Ayub Khan, Generals Yahya Khan and Ziul Haq to General Pervez Musharraf, and all their subordinate minions, have thrived and will continue to thrive not on Azadi but on dictating.

``A glorious fragrance from the Vale`` is as much ``of chambeli`` as it is of ``Z afran.`` The spiritual journey of the people of Jammu & Kashmir commence as much from ``A zan`` as from arati, grath path and the path to Buddha.

The road to freedom is truly, ``I mmersed in your elixir,`` where God is truly one who considers Himself to be the God of each and every member of mankind. Azadi cannot be attained by trust in a God who may be one but is no better than the God of only a segment of mankind.

God of Azadi is the God for all. It is a travesty to invoke Azadi in the name of a God who, like some British football fans, is for only one team and cheers lustily for the defeat every other. Azadi will be at hand when all residents of Jammu & Kashmir can believe in a God who is for all mankind and not just of a particular brand of believers.

Azadi is travesty if it means permanent exile of more than a quarter million of refugees who have been expelled from the Vale in the last 11 years. In God`s vision of Azadi, everyone is free to invoke Him in his own way, no one is killed or exiled from their ancestral land because of their brand of religious belief.

Hamoodur Rahman Report

Chowk need to reproduce the supplementary report (currently available on the Information Times internet site)for further discussion. The people of Pakistan need to know the truth. Why the present military regime wants to keep this report classified?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Re: Satyvadi 118

On August 14, 2000 Pakistan was given an unexpected birthday present from India in the guise of Hamood ur Rehman Report chronicling the events of 1971, which led to the dismemberment of Pakistan. Nearly twenty-nine years have lapsed since the dark days of December 1971 and in the aftermath of that disastrous war, the Rehman Commission was constituted to delve into the causes of that war and to decide which of the dramatis personae were responsible for the worst political and military disaster in the history of Pakistan. India Today, a web based magazine, broke the sensational news that it had managed to obtain a copy of the elusive Hamood ur Rehman report, and it was going to publish that report after nearly three decades of Pakistani silence and refusal to publish the report. The initial publication of the report was greeted with a stunned, but expectant response from within Pakistan and the publication of the report and its contents were duly reported by the print media in Pakistan, but not the state controlled Pakistan electronic media (TV and radio).

The report, as published on India Today, was in the shape of a supplement to the original report. The commission, as noted in the supplement itself, noted this fact that the commission was being reconstituted after the release of the Pakistani prisoners of war from India to finally complete its investigations and thus, make its final recommendations. This salient point needs to be brought to attention, because what the commission was itself suggesting was that this was a supplement to the report and not, as India Today was euphorically claiming, the actual report itself. The Rehman Commission was tasked with the responsibility to determine both the political and the military aspects of the events that led to the separation of East Pakistan from West Pakistan. Consequently, the text published by India Today is not the original report, because it deals exclusively with the military aspects of the events of 1971 and does not deal with the political issues that figured prominently in the crisis of 1971.

It is hard to comment on this report, as published, because it is only a part of the report and not the report itself! Who was accountable in the political sense? We know who was responsible in the military sense, but this report raises more questions than it answers. I think that the truth has been so blurred with speculations and revisionist attempts at deciphering the events of 1971 that it is hard to say, with any certainty, as to what really happened politically. I think the supplement to the report is scathing in its indictment of the way the Pakistani army handled itself in the east, but its omissions of the political half of the crisis lessens its overall impact. Till we find out the political aspects, this report has to be taken with a grain of salt, because it only deals with the half of the picture. Who was responsible politically for causing the problems that led to the east rebelling against the west? The events of 1971 were politically created and a lack of a political solution to them was the sina qua non of the crisis in 1971.

I hate to pour cold water over any celebrations, but till we find out what the reports conclusions were and whom it finds politically responsible for the loss of East Pakistan, this supplement will not answer that question. The only good thing that emerges from the publication of this supplement to the report itself is that half of the truth is out there now for all to see and read and if the GoP wants to reply, it should release the other half of the truth and let the people, finally, decide what is the truth!

Why was this supplement released? Where did India Today get it? I am sure that India Today will never reveal its sources and that is another puzzle in this continuing mystery. I do not doubt the veracity of the report, but I seriously question the reasons behind its “availability” for publication now. One of the main points raised in the report was the contention that the Pakistani army suffered professionally due to its involvement in the civilian administration during Ayub’s martial law. We know that there is a state of friction between the military and the bureaucracy in Pakistan, because the GHQ is blaming Islamabad for the lack of enthusiasm in implementing the reforms and that for the first time since Ayub’s one unit experiment, the military-bureaucratic relations are fissuring and have the potential of breaking apart. We know that the bureaucracy resents the army’s involvement in areas it considers as its own sacred jurisdictions and does not like the army monitoring its work. The only Pakistani institution that was damaged by this report was the army, because there was no reference to the political (bureaucratic) role in the events of 1971.

Something stinks in the state of Pakistan! This report/supplement is just too one sided to considered seriously and till the political half is released, there will be more questions than answers and the mystery will only deepen as it has already!

re: scout #45 and my post # 50

Scout,

you have not responded to my plea...I just wanted to remind you, in case you missed my earlier request. If you don`t want to, I can understand.

regards,

Kabuli

Urstruly #121

``The rejection of Indian style democracy in Pakistan throughout the last decade has shown that people of Pakistan are politically more aware of the value of a system based on the priniciples of social justice than anyone else in the region.``

Thats one of the most unique explanations I have come across for the state of the state of Pakistan, bravo!

I begin to suspect that perhaps the beginning Articles of any future Constitution will contain repudiations of others principles not affirmations of one`s own, since so much more thought is spent on repudiations of others than on affirmations of fundamental concepts pertaining to only to oneself. Anyway what`s new in that?

Anyway, my post #113 about the Constitution of Iran. The interesting parts of it can be found by searching for `the Leader`, `the Guardian Council` and `the Assembly of Experts`. I`m guessing those fighting for reform find these and related parts huge stumbling blocks, which allow scope for elections to be declared void, candidates to be disqualified, opposition parties to be banned, legislation to be overturned.

Dispassionate examination in ones own self-interest of case-studies available around the world can be done at no risk to one`s faith, just a gentle reminder(which is the last thing anyone wants, here, I know).

Sadhana

re: krashid # 70

Mr. KRashid,

Sorry for the late reply...I was touring my Delhi.


I think the problem here is maybe wrong mindset.
You said,

``Half my family still lives in India. Do you think I can break my bond, because they are Indians. There is nothing Indian or Pakistani in our relationship.

And if you think Indians can change the relationship between us by force, it is their folly.``

Indians changing relationship between you and your Indian relatives by force? So are your relatives in India Pakistani? Then why else don`t you say they are Indian? Why do you rob them of their Indian nationality? And even if `Indians` are out to change relationship between you and your Indian relatives by force, is it only the `Indians` or do your countrymen also share the blame? Ok, maybe if you are confused between Indian and non-Muslim, why do you assume that the non-Muslims of India would be against your relationship? You don`t smuggle hashish or ammo do you? You have to be insecure only if you are doing something illegal...else no problems.

Now coming to Kaffir, as far as I know, kaffir is somebody who commits kufr, unfaithfulness. Now, by sheer observation, Hindus are very devoted and faithful to their religion....you may not agree with their religion, but that is your problem. Even if you talk on the religious plane (read, monotheism) you may be are not aware of advaita philosophy of Hinduism which I think most Hindus follow. If you care to show some interest and read some books on Hinduism ( I recommend Upanishads, books on shankaracharya, or maybe ask someone who is more knowledgeable about Hinduism, preferably a Hindu), you will be astonished to see a common thread in Hinduism and Islam. Idols in Hinduism are misunderstood in Islam, because of Islam`s own history. But even then, idols are a very small and inconsequential component of Hinduism. It is for political and selfish reasons that people make a big issue of temples and other such outward manifestations of piety. I think in Islam also, a mosque is nothing but a place where people worship...unfortunately people tend to give more significance to mosques than they require. In any case, in my opinion, Islam would not be as succesful in the Indian subcontinent if it wasn`t for the prior spirituality of its converts, the vast majority of whom were Hindus. In fact sometimes I think that Islam rode piggyback on Hinduism. What I mean is, the version of Islam that caused most Hindus to accept Islam, Sufism, is very close in character and spirit to the Bhakti movement of Hinduism. Since there was a very bleary line between Sufism and Bhakti, people joined whichever was prevalent in their area due to the manipulations of history. When I was in Pakistan, I had the oppurtunity to visit Kasur and pay homage to the shrine of Baba Bulle Shah. I had earlier read the translation of his Bulleya in the album of Junoon. His thought and beliefs are strikingly similar if not identical to what the Bhakti philosophy says. In fact, I was informed that he was refused burial by the fundoos of his time on the grounds that he was a kafir. It was after 3 days it seems, that he was given a proper burial by one of my host`s ancestors in Kasur. And by the way, this veneration of tombs of Sufi saints, so prevalent in the sub-continent, do you call that kufr? Isn`t that worshipping of tomb? Here, I am reminded of a saying of Jesus, which goes something like this, ``Do not point finger at others, lest it be done to you`` or something to that extent. Islam should be thankful to these saints for it was because of them that Islam is where it is today, not the fundoo version of Islam which so often is sprayed on the pages of chowk. And to sum up, the Islam of the Sufis was very, very similar to the teachings of Hinduism, which I believe was a very, very important factor in the largescale and uninhibited conversion of Hindus to Islam. The Islam of the Sufis was not very different from the Hinduism they knew, so they might have under the effect of some saint, come to the Islamic fold, or they might have had some economic benefits or they might have suffered stigma by the upper-castes. But here, let me tell you that some of the most famous Bhakti saints were form the lowest of the low castes and today, they are venerated by one and all, examples: Surdas of the hindi speaking areas was a cobbler and Tukaram of Maharashtra was a potter.


You said,

``As you know very well that many Indians with American Passport and Nationality are Indians and do lobby for Indians because of some affinity and concern.

In the same way, as a Muslim, concern of Muslims also become our concern.i.e if they have a problem.``

I have met many Pakistanis who have discounted the Ummah and rather have given preference to Nationalism. In fact you yourself have said, that Islam ``should be seen in a nationalist perspective as a rallying point``. So, when you
are making common cause with Indian Muslims, do you believe in some sort of reunification theory? Just kidding...just for the record,
even if some idiots did believe in reunification the vast majority of Indians will never let that happen, as I am sure, the vast majority of Pakistanis wouldn`t. Even if you want to give help and make common cause with Indian Muslims, are you sure Indian Muslims want it? Are you helping them or are you making things worse for them?

You said,

``With unequal opportunities comes the justification in the form of rationalizing injustice and labelling by beneficiaries of system.``

I had in my previous post said that everybody is suffering from the system in India and the system in India needs to be rehauled and that India should not be singled out for its problems relating to corruption, discrimination etc. I am guessing that that is what caused the above sentence by you. What you believe is your business, but just for the record, I am from a hitherto disadvantaged community, but my father received support and help from a government scheme and thus could become a doctor. And if Scout is reading this, he is not a token doctor, there have been crores of such beneficiaries. In fact, I believe this is reverse discrimination and should be stopped at a future date when all sections of Indian populace has been rehabilitated.

You said,

``
If a state or person or group thinks that his rights are being usurped or will benefit by secession, what keeps him to remain a part of India (or any other country).

The lesson from Pakistan, may be of some relevance, regarding how once hostile Pakhtoon, Baluch and Sindhis had been absorbed to a good extent in the mainstream.``

Thanks for giving me a hearty laugh. I agree that there are problems in India and that there are secession movements in different parts of the country. My rights too have been usurped now and then by my neighbouring states. But I believe in India and her inherent strength and philosophy
as do the majority of my countrymen.
I am guessing you too believe in Pakistan as much as I believe in India, which made you say, ``the lesson from Pakistan, may be of some relevance, regarding how once hostile Pakhtoon, Baluch and Sindhis had been absorbed to a good extent in the mainstream.``

regards,

Kabuli

RE: Krashid, Sadhna, Shankar

Unfortunately, this thread has been Rsaxenized and is now under the tyrranny of Jay-ism so I will be brief in my response.

Iran is a unique experience in history. It has proven the myth that Democracy and religion can not go together, wrong. It has been proving it wrong every four years for the past 20 years.

It has also proven the popular myth wrong that Institution of Ijtehad can not be set up.

It has also proven the popular myth wrong that Ullema can not sit at one table. The institutions of FSC and IIC in Pakistan, the Shariat Bill, the Objective Resolution all have proved several myths wrong.

The CAN-DO attitude exhibited by Pakistanis by declaring themselves a nuclear power while they were not apple of Chowderys eyes anymore, has exhibited that they beleive in God, their destiny and themselves.

The rejection of Indian style democracy in Pakistan throughout the last decade has shown that people of Pakistan are politically more aware of the value of a system based on the priniciples of social justice than anyone else in the region.

By presenting the world their interest-free economic system they have shown the world that this poor nation of 140 million people has what it takes. Sure there are glitches in the system, but what system hasnt. This nation has shown that it can think beyond the gods of West the Adam Smiths and Carl Marxs.

To YLH,

ANTI-INDIAN RALLIES.

This is another aspect of pakistan that was never mentioned by pakistanis, the regular anti-indian rallies. YLH, now that you are in the land of the pure, can you enquire about the anti indian rallies, who organises them, etc.

Learn about your country before shouting slogans. Go and visit a madrassa, see those automatons, rocking their bodies and chanting, as shown on CNN, see in real life, and ensure that you dont rock when you key in those slogans.

regards and do you want a zindabad with that.

Jay.

to YLH,

Some where in the Simla agreement is a wording to the effect that all problems will be settled bilaterally. Matters will be taken to multilateral fora only if the two parties agree. That is the simple reason why there has been no resolutions, defeated or otherwise in the Un general assembly.

That is the very reason why even your exalted CE annonced in the beginning that all of the previous agreements will be honoured. With out abrogating the Simla, pakistan cannot take the Kashmir into the UN. You can harp on the old UN resolutions, they are as dead as the famous forked tongue speach. From a secular nation to a nation that has legalised killing of 50% of the population by the other 50%, judge, jury and the executioner, in support of honour. Wake up from the dream YLH of the speach still ringing in your ears, to the nightmare of reality.

If you are in pakistan read the posters calling the jihadists, listen to the urgings of the mullah, spare a few cents, not rupees, to the jihadists and read the scores in dawn. Wake up and walk and live the nightmare. Dont be lulled by the talk of Kebab and the frangrance of Jamoon, read of the jihadic achievements, understand the people when the CE says that jihad is beyond the governmental control, it is the religious imperative of the mums and dads, cheer those who held the mighty army in the foothills

of kargil.

Get first hand info about the split in kashmiri jihadists, chech out whether CE is supporting the organisation headed by Asghar, check out the links between this and hijacking. Eat mackers, not the silly kebab, awfull.

Regards and do you like chips with that.

jay.

Pankaj #101 You believe that religions are man-made. I happen to believe otherwise: surely there is much more behind this vast, complex universe than just mindless dead matter, and surely a higher Consciousness than what us puny humans. And it is not implausible to believe that that Consciousness tries to get a few messages across via prophets. Anyway, to each his own, and I am sure that the Almighty is above taking offense from lack of recognition on your part and will let it pass. The important thing is that we understand and heed the basic message I believe. The message for Muslims is simple and clear: make no god but God (meaning dont ``worship`` money, power, some political figure like Khomeni or Saddam, and so forth); take interest in and learn about God`s creation (Science); and be good to others. People who heed this message, even if they are not Muslims, are clearly closer to Allah than people who do not.

Why is no one talking about the Hamoodur Rehman

Comission report and there is not an article on it yet on Chowk? Is it because all that is says was probably known (and discussed) in Pakistan all along? Please englighten.

Satyavadi

My post #110:

Sorry folks. Posted it on the wrong thread.

Satyavadi