Residue of a Spent Time

RR #34:

I liked your matter-of-fact approach ----[What I`m about to say now is a very controversial and touchy subject.]

(and am aware this is generally within the confines of the mores under discussion -- though it wasn’t the original intent:)

I shall check out the sites mentioned later. They look interesting. What this caveat indicates merely is that I am shooting from the hip ---- or from memory!

Muta’ah or temporary marriage addressed a physical need when men used to be away from their homes for long periods of time in war or trade leading caravans. It ‘regularized’ physical relations.

Nikah being a contract (shame on those who only recognize Magna Carta 1250something to be THE cornerstone of westen democratic trends) has these essentials --- two willing parties-- a man and a woman --- mutual agreement of responsibilities --- witnesses --- meh’r --- sort of financial guarantee or gesture from the man towards the women.

Muta’ah has two more essentials --- a fixed time frame and a guarantee by the male to extend and assume full rights and responsibilities to any child borne of that contract!

Because of the human tendency to abuse this license became a cause for licentious behavior and perhaps that is why the jurists from the Sunni branch frowned and banned it. The Prophet (saw) and Caliph Omar argument does not fly here ---[Shia argue the Prophet never did revoke it and since he didn`t, no one can do so after him.] --- for this simple reason. The Prophet (saw) taught and practiced Divorce overwhelmingly in a certain fashion. I think it went something like this. No matter how many times the husband uttered the word ‘divorce’ it was considered as once only. There was a cooling off period between first and second divorce utterances or delivery. And elders of the community got involved to explore all possible avenues of a reconciliation. Thus when all efforts failed a divorce decree was considered final.

Caliph Omar changed all that by decreeing that henceforth ( think it was the second or third year of his Caliphate) three utterances of the word divorce would become final and binding on both parties. Thus he DID consider the situation and change the modus operandi from the Prophet’s. To be fair to him there were hints in letters just before his death that he regretted his original decision and was inclined to restore the former method.

My one criticism of Muta`ah is why is it a one way street. If you know, please tell me why is it confined to men only?

One final note. We must, at all costs, avoid falling into the trap of blaming everything on the mullahs. If anything, the major portion of the blame for the present status-quo or the increasingly hard line adopted by the orthodox fundamentalists rests on us --- those of us ‘of the book’ who can read but don’t!
regards,

temporal

PS: Nice to see you back :)

temporal yar we did have an article ``Sex Everywhere`` on chowk some time ago with a lot of discussion in the replies on the subject. I agree with you that folks in Pakistan+India have imposed a code of behavior that negates both Hinduism and Islam when dealing with sex. Nikah literally means intercourse in Arabic. In Islamic literature, the word `Sulb`(manhood) and `raham` (womb) are used casually in describing from whose you-know-what so and so was born.

This conservatisation of sexuality in South Asia is purely cultural and inspired by both local and British influences. Like the old India, in early Islam the need for sex was considered a natural thing and a good thing at that.

What I`m about to say now is a very controversial and touchy subject. In the early days of Islam the introduction of temporary marriage or fixed-time marriage was to acknowledge this human need. Sunni and Shia disagree whether the permission was revoked by the Prophet himself or by the 2nd Caliph. Shia argue the Prophet never did revoke it and since he didn`t, no one can do so after him. The same science of Hadith that both use favor the Shia argument heavily, though.

(For a contemporary perspective on the subject please read the online version of the book ``Marriage and Morals`` by S.M. Rizvi at http://al-islam1.org/m_morals/. For further reading please see ``Temporary Marriage in Islamic Law`` by Sachiko Murata at http://al-islam1.org/al-serat/muta/. Also see ``Woman and Her Rights`` by Mutahhari at http://al-islam1.org/WomanRights/)

Sunni argue that the very idea promotes sexual hedonism as the boy and girl after puberty are free to make temporary marriage contract without the need for witnesses or Qazi. Shia point out that it is a Sunnah and a legitimate Islamic solution to today`s problems faced by youth as the marriage age is delayed to mid 20s and even 30s and that young people should not have to suffer sexual repression due to economic or social problems as it inevitably results in psychological problems.

In any event, you won`t find either the Shia or Sunni even familiar with the concept in South Asia. They don`t even know that such a thing even exists. Well, they won`t acknowledge it any how. What does it say about South Asia as a region? What holds back even the Shia, who are ready to battle if you divert the traditional route for a Muharram procession, from practicing their own belief? (As compared to the Iranian Shia who promote the idea even in schools to both boys and girls and distribute free condoms, too. They are a theocracy where women are supposedly oppressed. Can you imagine this happening even in the most liberal of democracies in South Asia?) It`s a mystery to me as to what are the causes for such inhibitions in this region when it comes to acknowledging our human nature?

Take care,

Rehan.

Re: Scout #29

I can`t make very accurate observations about Hindus v. Muslims as far as sexual liberation goes. And neither can I make any observations about Pakistan. What I can do is relate to you my experiences in Indian society. Especially as seen through arts & entertainment.

India is getting exponentially liberated. Used to be, half a hint of Zeenat Aman`s titty through a wet sari sent all Indian men scurrying to the theater restrooms. Those days are gone! You couldn`t say the word `sex` out in public. Now actress nonchalantly say stuff like, ``I am sexy and I am going to use it to my advantage``.

No one discussed homosexuality openly before... now gay-rights is a strong, organized movement. Many music videos show women subtly touching and grinding each other exploiting the mother of all sexual suggestions. That would have been a complete no-no before. Kissing in public was unheard of. Now you see it all the time.

Needless to say, the urban are more liberated than the rural. But I think one can safely say that across the entire cross-section of Indian society.... collars HAVE loosened.

Sadhna #28:

You painted all over the canvas. Mine was limited. I aired some thoughts over the experience this side of the border and invited comments from others about the other side. My focus was limited to Desi mores and behavior. Wasn’t advocating promiscuity or profligacy just more open-ness and less retentiveness.

Your comments are universal in nature and beyond the present frame. In your summation in para 2. it appears we are not on the same page of the book!

When I wrote , ‘Let me focus on Pakistan specifically for now. Indian feedback and perspective appreciated. Sadhna? Others?’ I was aware of the past --- Khajurao, Puri, KS etc. and the miniatures as mentioned by Happy and you (though not aware of the Portuguese/Goan spin that you added Happy)--- I had a feeling that the surviving depiction were elitist and not mass based ---- though I am still waiting for confirmation --- and as for shock value --- quite redundant in my book ---- I certainly did not introduce that angle. To sum up ---- a little bit more open behavior but not base or vulgar. But couching them in such terms I am also aware of the difficulties of the task --- ultimately it is a conundrum --- with too much generalization, personal taste, even whims thrown in. Thanks for your input, though!

love,

t

PS: That ‘zippered’ sari from another board is very intriguing. Can you describe it? Am only aware of one where the pleats are invisibly mended so the novice wearer can put it on in a jiffy.

About desi sex culture:

Hindu temple architecture depicts very vividly the kind of attitude the society had about sex. The culmination of the depiction of erotica in sculpture is considered to be the 80 odd temples of Khajuraho. These were constructed around the 10th & 11th centuries. Very kinky stuff! Boy-on-boy, Girl-on-girl, bestiality, you name it!

Vivid and open depiction, description & discussion of sex continued thereafter for centuries. About the sub-continental Muslim culture and their attitudes towards sex... search the web for `ancient Indian erotica` or `mogul erotica` and you are sure to find a rich array of explicit mogul paintings. The mogul paintings are not nearly as kinky as the sculptures on Khajuraho but they show some pretty nasty things, also these paintings are at least 4 centuries later! The toning down of public depiction of sex is one thing but we can all pretty much guess what kind of things went on in the Harems!

Then the Brits showed up and promptly started clamping down on all the native customs that they thought to be uncivilized. Including liberal sexual attitudes.

Interestingly enough there is a cult like following of Indo-Portuguese pornography. Search the web... you will find some very entertaining stuff. Apparently while the Brits were busy clamping down on desi porn, the Portuguese India with Goa as the hot bed flourished and became a hub for Indo-European porn. Again funny how Goa continues to be a party town!

PS: When I mentioned Indian songs, I meant the older ones :-).

the happy one #26, ``. I read somewhere that the desi society (with its traditions of Kamasutra and what not) was a sexually liberated one to begin with but started developing taboos due to Judeo-Christian influences. It`s very ironic therefore that now as the sub-continent gets progressively more liberated, it is once again due to western influences. Maybe we are just a naive and impressionable people?``

THat`s an interesting concept. But I don`t know if this desi sexual liberation relates to desi Muslims, does it to desi Hindus?

I am afraid we are, in general, what you say, a naive and impressionable people. Just watch an Indian or Pakistani movie and it`s clear as day.

:)

As for men being excruciating pricks, why should I say something that`s obvious :)

JK

scout

temporal #16

Aapne mujhe yaad kiyaa :-)?
If I understand correctly, you are saying firstly, that desi behaviours and social mores are repressive in inclination, secondly, this cultural orientation and puritanical orthodoxy added to it leads to `mistreatment` of women and thirdly any `shock` value discussion or airing of sex and related issues is always good since its `noble` aim is to dispel this prevailing morbid atmosphere.
Very convenient :-). Its like Vajpayee`s last Independence day speech mentioning the AIDS epidemic and saying that people should regulate their behaviour. ``The Pradhaan Mantri told me not to``:-).

But seriously, India is a land of Khajuraho and KS(as Happy mentioned). I think in older cultures, the sexual urge has found a stable and logical resting place in the scheme of things. There is more pragmatism in acknowledging its `existence`, more thought expended on how and why to regulate it, IMO and less of the `original sin` type of solely guilt-evoking rhetoric.

About social mores and behaviours, I think its a cultural thing about when desis prefer to be reserved and private and when they are unabashedly open. I find non-Europeans, desis too, more open with many feelings in public, affection for their children or family for instance or grief, (if you want to be really morbid, watch mourners. Desis donot hide themselves behind deadpan faces and dark glasses). Desis are also more effusive in casual social situations(according to me). The way I personally look at it is that one doesnot like to throw open to casual bystanders a view of one`s most valuable personal treasures.

Another cultural preference is that of euphemism in articulation of strong emotions. I have always been grateful for the euphemisms in Indian songs, for instance, I had freedom of choice to interpret the words as I wished or knew from say age 4-date. I was never hit with uncompromising sledgehammer or bare-bones expressions. Thats what I call real freedom of choice.

About mistreatment of women, plenty happens where we come from, there is no doubt or argument. But I suspect wives/girlfriends are beaten quite a lot in the West, too. I think there was even a highranking White House official who was once `revealed`? The `date-rape` drug and stalking are also Western phenomena. And ever hear of Tailhook? And the recent incidents in Central Park NY? Lack of repression in society and the `60s didnot help the women caught in these situations. Sex tourism traffic from Europe to Asia particularly targetted at children is very high I suspect from those countries which have legalized pornography or virtually done so. In summary, IMO some measure of restraint (legal/social) is worth something, infact quite a lot. What is culturally acceptable and doable is the question which differs from place to place.

Now, `shock` value: Prime time TV in the West is overflowing with it. I don`t need no more, thanks. BTW, Germaine Greer once said when in India,`` in the US, even a above-seventy woman like Nancy Reagan(who was First Lady at the time) has to dress and look like a bahu``(thats the term she used), so much for sexual and women`s liberation.

(you asked for it:-)).
Sadhana

The happy one #26:

Thought I would acknowledge in public that you are alive and well, though not feeling upto your monicker -- shrug---- at least in this post ;)

---hmmmm---- [....the desi society... started developing taboos due to Judeo-Christian influences....]

This is worth examining. If we trace the origin of these influences to the past two or three centuries then were we more `liberal` before?

rgds,

t

Re: Scout

The very fact that there is an abhorrence expressed by people when sex is discussed here.... The very fact that people question the use of sex for `shock` value (thereby acknowledging its shock value)... is a very poignant indicator of the fact that people consider discussions of sex to be `out of bounds`.

Why?

If sex were `in-bounds`, there wouldn`t be a shock value to it, would there?

Based on what I have read of Chowk`s declared `policies`.... I wouldn`t be surprised if `loosening up collars` as you pointed out is one of the objectives behind this editorial choice.

I don`t know if it`s a matter of religion, culture, prosperity or all of the above that desis tend to be more repressed about sex than their western counterparts. I would too love to see an article that delves into the desi psyche in this regard. I read somewhere that the desi society (with its traditions of Kamasutra and what not) was a sexually liberated one to begin with but started developing taboos due to Judeo-Christian influences. It`s very ironic therefore that now as the sub-continent gets progressively more liberated, it is once again due to western influences. Maybe we are just a naive and impressionable people?

PS: When I read the poem I thought for sure you were gonna say something like, ``Aren`t all men excruciating pricks?`` :)

Re: fairdinkum #22

(lOl)

anamika #23,

hehe

anamika #23:

lol!

And where have you been hiding
this poetic bent and pining?

:)O

rgds,

t



OK, I`ll trade one bad poem

for another with no rhyme

Sex sells and in a bad verse

its appeal is even worse,

apparently - the trick

probably is to say prick

(Excruciating? What can

it mean? Hurtful? Thorn(y)?)

Sex treads on guilt

and religion trades it

The ``nailing``, pain and prick

smell of religion so thick

I wonder no more

OK, I`ll trade one bad poem

for another with no rhyme

Sex sells and in a bad verse

its appeal is even worse,

apparently - the trick

probably is to say prick

(Excruciating? What can

it mean? Hurtful? Thorn(y)?)

Sex treads on guilt

and religion trades it

The ``nailing``, pain and prick

smell of religion so thick

I wonder no more

why the Pope won`t score!

Re: temporal #13

“perhaps the egalitarian liberalism inherent in Islam……………….”

For a moment, I thought you said, “perhaps the egalitarian lesbianism inherent in islam………”

-:) ……..

jonty #19,

You missed my whole point. I`m not talking about what Sylvia Plath (didn`t she kill herself??) thinks sex is, I`m talking about the sex issue (not the act itself) and the taboos/inhibitions/fears in desi people.

The last thing I want to read is a psychomaniac`s erotic mumbo jumbo, and that is exactly what you produced. Sylvia Plath was creative, but most mentally ill people are. :)

t wrote:

``There has to be a impulse associated with buying steel belted, multi-tracking all weather radial tires and the dazzling smile or figure of a curvaceous model perched atop a tire like a slithering tiger. Has to be?----- yes, or else why would advertisers spend millions to tickle that buying impulse in the consumer?``

ok but that might have the impact as far as making me glued to the TV screen for a bit more time ,but would I go out to the market and buy something just because it`s advertisement had a sizling model??? No, certainly!

[this kind of tickling can only make u giggle, not buy something unless it`s something really worthwhile...buying is another thing]

ps: in my earlier post it was candid not canidid[my typing:)]

scout,

Is it something like this you`re after? (t, I hope you find this ``within the bounds of decency`` ;-)

Regards,
Jonathan


A Refined Hedonism

By Sylvia Plath

I remember a cool river beach and a May night full of rain held in far clouds, moonly sparks saying on the water and the close, dank, heavy wetness of green vegetation. The water was cold to my bare feet, and the mud oozed up between my toes. He ran on the sand, and I ran after him, my hair long and damp, blowing free across my mouth. I could feel the inevitable magnetic polar forces in us, and the tidal blood beat loud, loud, roaring in my ears, slowing and rhythmic. He paused then, I behind him, arms locked around the powerful ribs, fingers caressing him. To lie, with him, to lie with him, burning forgetful in the delicious animal fire. Locked first upright, thighs ground together, shuddering mouth to mouth, breast to breast, legs enmeshed, then lying full length, with the good heavy weight of body upon body, arching, undulating, blind, growing together, force fighting force: To kill? To drive into burning dark of oblivion? To lose identity? Not love, this, quite. But something else rather. A refined hedonism. Hedonism because of the blind sucking mouthing fingering quest for physical gratification. Refined because of the desire to stimulate another in return, not being quite only concerned for self alone, but mostly so. An easy end to arguments on the mouth: a warm meeting of mouths, tongues quivering, licking, tasting. An easy substitute for bad slashing with angry hating teeth and nails and voice: the curious musical tempo of hands lifting under breasts, caressing throat, shoulders, knees, thighs. And giving up to the corrosive black whirlpool of mutual necessary destruction. Once there is the first kiss, then the cycle becomes inevitable. Training, conditioning makes a hunger burn in breasts and secrete fluid in vagina, driving madly for destruction. What is it but destruction? Some mystic desire to beat to sensual annihilation — to snuff out one`s identity on the identity of the other — a mingling and mangling of identities? A death of one? Or both? A devouring and subordination? No, no. A polarization rather — a balance of two integrities, charging, electrically, one with the other, yet with centers of coolness, like stars.

From The Journals of Sylvia Plath: 1950-1962 (Dial Press, © 1982)

quite eloquent temporal:)

but despite all of your canidid and impressive endeavour[at the face value],it doesnt explain or justify the inclusion of substandard piece of writings or something which fails to make some sense and seem absurd...[nopes, aint pointing at this poem but Rehan`s article..but maybe I SHOULD write this there:)]

t-bhai #16,

PHEWWW. After reading your post I`m suffering from a bout of performance anxiety. (will my reply be as good, as lengthy, as thorough, as ``deep`` as yours). Let me recover...(breathes deeply)....

Okay here goes, you said `` sex is deliberately underplayed in our conscious human make up -- more so in our uptight desi context than in other societies -- ``

So maybe the reason why almost anything with reference to sex is published on Chowk, is that the editors of Chowk want to loosen the collars of the desi mind when it comes to this taboo topic? Maybe if we repeat the word `sex` again and again, we can open up people`s minds to it?

But I personally haven`t read an article yet which drives deep into the fears of desi society

when it comes to such matters.

``Show me a girl/woman there who has not been fondled once. (And yet when Shandana wrote candidly about that experience some folks here at Chowk reprimanded her!) Countless friends have told me each time they step out in the public there they FEEL they are being stripped of their clothes by ever-following staring eyes.``

I don`t know if this is due to the suppression of ``sex`` in Pakistani society. Don`t men of all races/nationalities engage in such behaviors?

The same thing that happened to Shandana could happen to any woman in any country where the legal system is weak, police power is weak.

Latin America and Africa for example.

``I would urge and vote for a more open examination of our sexual biases, thoughts, impulses, within the boundaries of decency.``

I couldn`t agree more, but I don`t see that happening on Chowk. All I see is anecdotal references/experiences of sex. Nothing going deep into the heart of the matter. Nothing exploring the desi mind and analyzing what makes us do what we do, and have the inhibitions that we do. Can`t someone write something meaningful about this issue instead of falling prey to this desi phenomenon of pseudo-erotica?

``As for assertion of thirty years I would like to know how you fixed that time frame. Anyways, whatever the time frame, it is never too late for a realistic desi examination of sexual mores.``

With regard to the thirty years, I had the Western sexual revolution of the 60`s and 70`s in mind. You are right, it`s never too late to examine the issue. But here, on Chowk, it seems like the issue is being skirted, not analyzed.

``As for the poem that was published elsewhere but not here: I would definitely be interested in reading it.``

I`ll email it to you after I ask my cousin for permission.

I know I missed responding to many points in your reply, but if I had replied to all, I`d have been here all night :).

take care

scout

scout #13:

WHAT’S WITH SEX AND THE DESIS?
--or--
[

Scout @13

I agree with you.

At least in literature, chowk should take the services of a person who knows about literature.

A piece might be simple and yet highly literary.

My mind sets on temporal for this, if he can spare his time.

Although I am well versed with Urdu literature and mainly read translation from other languages, but on chowk apart from few good selections, most of them are good for a school magazine.

It is not criticism. Different persons are suited for different things.

Powerful imagery. Very nice, Pallavi. Looking forward to reading more from you.

The poem is short and good.

But just one question to whom it may concern:

If I pose as a journalist/writer from the subcontinent and write a poem/article hinting at sex or just plain out saying the word (Rehan Ansari`s Lahore Diaries XV), will it be guaranteed publication?

A cousin of mine sent in a beautiful poem about mid-life crisis which hasn`t seen the time of day on Chowk, but has been published and applauded on American (gora) publications.

What is it about the educated desi community and using ``sex`` as a provider of ``shock`` value?

Or is this just a sexual revolution desi style, but thirty years late?

Good stuff!

stretched for miles...the highway to heaven, ending in hell!

veeresh #5:

Malik sahib, sounds like ..... well, never mind!


Jonty #6:

How are you? Or should I say where are you?

----smiling-----

you caught it right on --- try saying it without using orgasm! --- high rollers? ---- moral brigade?

The answer is no, for the last query.

rgds,

t

liked both the poems...though temporal`s contribution was definately more thought provoking:)

keep writing.

Taimur.

I could not exactly fathom the mood of the poem. I tried though. But there are parts which do hold you.

``present endures the anxiety of the imminent``

anxiety of the imminent..(couldn`t help agreeing with it)...may be because of the curiousity as to

HOW the imminent would pass us by.

``prick stretching for miles``

...hmmmm it can.

Nice one.

Are you inspired by any particular poet..?

pullu

``Residue of a Spent Time``?

Title is trying too hard to be creative.

Pallavi

Enjoyed this quite a bit.

``Vision offers pleasure/ perception and/ later ethics, damn it though``

So true.

Thanks for sharing.



t

Enjoyed your friend`s poem, too. ``My intense One`` made me wince, though. As, I`m sorry to say, did this:

``The pleasure of fleeting moments against a background of our desi morality that brings ethical whims to the forefront at THAT time is enchantingly captured by you.``

I know it`s just a reply, but still. You of all people... Anyway. Structure aside, I found the sentiments of the sentence quite interesting. Especially ``ethical whims``. If the poem itself doesn`t stir up the holy rollers, that sure will ;-)

BTW, got your hands on White Teeth yet?

Regards,
Jonathan

Sounds a bit like my college going daughter describing a particularly hairy bus journey from defCol to DU . . .

Interesting.

from Pallavi`s poem:

``nailing hard and deep.``

``pressing hard against the dome of sensitivity.``

``yet

dig into the living with that excruciating

prick

stretching for miles``

``to make a yard of a wound``

from temporal`s friend`s:

``And let your finger`s serpent dive

Into cesspools on whose shores

It sat shyly, questioning

Poised to enter``

Some ammuniton for the moral brigade to rant against.

BTW, like both the poems.

Satyavadi

Pallavi:

First, a warm welcome.

We need bold, daring and creative folks here.

Oh, loved how you painted THAT union of mind and body. The ‘nailing’ in second line conjured both images well.

The pleasure of fleeting moments against a background of our desi morality that brings ethical whims to the forefront at THAT time is enchantingly captured by you. Good phrase -- anxiety of the imminent. Great one word line - prick!

I will share with you another poem by a desi friend of mine, same age, gender and aspirations as yours.

Scorpion

I could spend hours
Stroking your hair with my fingers
Your serpentine curls streaked with white gold

Days on end melting
Under your firm, large hands
As you smooth away the knots from my shoulders

No accounting of time necessary
We could eat, and drink, and smoke, and talk
As we did all day, yesterday

I could wax poetic,
Wane lovelorn
Dream generally fitful dreams of you
And your self-confessed vengefulness

But when we kiss again
My intense One
Send your tongue`s dragon deeper into my heart

And let your finger`s serpent dive
Into cesspools on whose shores
It sat shyly, questioning
Poised to enter
___________________

Welcome, once again. [Don’t be dismayed by adverse inter-actions, if any. This is an intersection where all kinds of people traverse.]

love,

temporal