The Ongoing IT Revolution and Security Implications for Pakistan

I just have two much time on my hands today :) Anyone whose resume gets thrown into the dustbin (hindu, muslim, sikh, essai; i dont care) by vsn, send it over to me. In the current Silicon Valley job market, it is the employee who is the boss. Getting hold of a good resume is like hitting the jackpot. I am surprised there are people who are throwing them in the dustbin.

RanaRansher: #133: ``For example, the author suggests reaping the benefits of IT by using India hatred as the enabler. ....

``So he uses stats to prove his point and you join in.``

You are being quite ridiculous. I never joined in with the author. I actually opposed the author`s point of view. I stated the following in reply 36:

``So, while I agree with the article on an abstract level, i.e. Pakistan needs to progress in IT, I do not agree with the reasons you have given to justify the progress. Pakistan should try to progress in IT regardless of what India is doing. Apart from self-defence, there is no need for Pakistan to relate everything to India. And the only situation under which India`s IT success could be a military threat to Pakistan is if India starts pumping its IT money into its military. I think it would be quite useless of India to do so.``

Regarding the low ratio of Indian programmers/entreprenuers to IT managers; this is a fact. Please read a recent Fortune magazine which had a big write-up on Indians in Silicon Valley. I didn`t give any reasons. I just described a fact, and stated the following in reply #128:

``For the record, I am not quite sure why Indians are so under-represented in US IT management in ratio, to the total numbers of Indians in the US IT industry. There are many points of view regarding this, and I have yet to decide which is the most accurate.``

If you do not consider the above a fact, please contact Fortune Magazine, and Kanwal Rekhi (on whom the article was based). Don`t attempt to take it out on me.

Any statement based on research and factual statement should be respected and discussed. You are trying to disregard the statement, and attempting to attack the person making the statement. Regardless of anything you say about the person making the statement; a fact remains a fact. Shooting the messenger will not discredit the message.

In brief, do not attempt to put words in my mouth. Concentrate on what is being said, and not who is saying it.

Umairr #128, ``In any case, no website or discussion is worth getting an increase in one`s blood pressure. :) So, you need to cool down :)``

Would Chowk be so interesting if we all cooled down? It would turn out to be a cold literary internet magazine lacking human emotional flavor.

Re: the happy one (various posts)

“Regarding your lament that Indians are not admonishing this vsn character, see my posts #88, 89.”

I did. See my post 118.

“Anyway... the gist of what is pissing me off lately (and my ire was directed more at fairdinkum than you)”

As Umairr pointed out, key words in my post were also “Indians on this site”. You don’t have to make a lot of effort to see that most Indians (shankar, Amit excepted – sadhna and few others to some extent only) are shy of self-criticism “on this site.”

I like umairr’s view that this is probably because they (Indians) see this as a Pakistani site and therefore they go into a defensive mode as soon as they see anything even remotely critical of India or Indians. However, they see absolutely no problem in criticising Islam/Muslim. Did you know that 1/3 of world population follows Islam? – Not just Pakistanis or Arabs?

And while people like vsn or hamsab or Ramesh or Jay or RSaxana see no problems in their disgusting behaviour, and some others approve it with a wink and nod, the same people get highly agitated when same rubbish is hurled back at them. I performed an experiment by writing a provocative post (essentially using the same tactics as some Indians quite often use on this site) on another board to see how one particular person (hamsab) would react if I gave him the same garbage he was regurgitating to put Muslims down. However, I did leave clear signs for people who have some understanding of Islam that I was not serious in my comments. The responses are quite interesting.

VSN

I had intended to continue with my critique on Sac`s article, but you said something that provoked me to write a few points.

``If pakis want to be buddies with Indians in US where it suits them and enmies in south asis where it does not - sorry it does not work that way.``

* * *If one reads the above point on its face value, then it has some spark(shurlee) in it. But I feel you are overlooking few aspects, therefore I am tempted to address them below:

*The Pakistanis - who are your colleagues, neighbors or acquaintances in West, are not hiding in the trenches of Kargil or Siachen; ready to attack. [Hey, we do not believe in reincarnation. Being in two different places at one time is also not an acceptable notion.]

*Enemies is a strong word. It was not used appropriately in the current context.[My View]

``Every action has a consequence and you have to take responsibility for your actions (or your governments actions). I am yet to see a paki who is critical of his religion or government.``

* * *I’d very regretfully, like to inform you, that you may have to day dream for a very long time to have your above desires fulfilled - on religion, in particular! Either you meant something else or you are simply out of your mind. I feel you are referring to the Jehadis and are getting carried away by your emotional trauma – my prognosis.

On another note, if you do not want to contribute towards any cause, then don`t do it - it is your prerogative! You cannot agree with everyone and you should not - provided you have a personality!
I hear a whining kid!

Laikin, I am a little curious to know the following:

- How do you know that the physicians are sponsoring any `madrassas`?

- Do you know the meaning of a `madrassa`?

- Are you under the misconception that if you shove the resumes` in a dustbin, you will deprive the candidate from achieving his/her dreams or desired goals ?

Allow me to enlighten you, for I see something very wrong here:

a) Halt!
[Please stop here, if you are full of yourself]

b) Relax!
[Please continue, if you aren’t]

Being Muslims, we believe in two very unique concepts: Qismet and Hikmut!

As you tried to sound like a demigod [unfortunately, unaware of the above concepts], it is incumbant upon me to illuminate thy mind on the above:

* *Qismet * *
If I am due a substantial raise or a promotion, no matter what my adversaries do - I will get that.
How ?
You`d be amazed to think and imagine the grandeur of God. That is why humans are humans, and cannot reach the supremacy of God.

* *Hikmut * *:
If I don`t get what I expected to achieve or receive - Has my world become bleak and devoid of any hope?

As a believer[cool]: I would pursue the other options/alternatives. Keeping in mind, what I was running after wasn’t for me and there is something better out there – for me. I hope you must have read: ``Man proposes, God disposes!``

With that said, I’d suggest you should go ahead with your Mahaa’n Vichaa’r & shove any candidates along with their resumes’ [Hikmut], and then they’ll go somewhere else where they’d have better opportunities as well better environment [Their Qismet].

Please feel free to question any confusing points in my above enlightening little sermon.

Kind Regards

* * * * * * * * * * * *
`Ah, but a man`s reach should exceed his grasp,
Or, what`s a heaven for?
(Browning)
* * * * * * * * * * * *

Discussion will be focused on this clown vsn now I guess. Can we please leave him alone? I guess not....sigh of resignation!!!!

re Zahra #72:

I read the link you mentioned in your post with great interest. Thanks for an informative read. The programming talent is there no doubt. What the homegrown industry lacks are quality folks at the upper tiers of management.Instead of trying to get the Safi Qureshis of this world to go back maybe the emphasis should be on trying to entice people at project manager level and below.It becomes very difficult for a mid-level executive in his mid-thirties who has first gone through the vagaries of the green card process, has a mortgage on a nice suburban home,the wife is expecting (again!) and the stock options are finally getting vested to throw it all away for a shot at helping the motherland. The young ones on the other hand are at the cutting edge,are hungry for those elusive riches,are sick of the handcuffs placed on them by the INS and have imbibed enough of the culture of the west to make a difference back home.What do you think?

later

-sac

re: Umairr

et tu Umairr. I did not think you could be brought down to that level. I did not think that someone who has acommplished so much so quick, even possessed one of those lowly Indo-Pak filters (which allows the user to see every piece of data with Indo-Pak sometimes extending into Hindu-Mulslim perspective ``professional green tint`` version feature !!) Higher level views require fewer lower level filters (quite literally, too, think about it).

In other words, if you are looking at data with this Indo-Pak filter, whatever your goal maybe (???), it results in perverse pleasure and can never lead to anyhing positive or constructive. This applies to anybody and is quite true. I encourage people to try this experiment out themselves. For example, the author suggests reaping the benefits of IT by using India hatred as the enabler. IMHO, I believe he is just a wanna-be political scientist who became one with IT `cause of market conditions.

So he uses stats to prove his point and you join in. His filters render the stats completely useless. The stats do have to be meaningful right.
Lets take your example, stats of Indian IT techs vs IT managers. What does this show ? Especially when you compare it to Pak IT techs vs Pak IT managers.
There are numerous studies (keyword knowlwdge economies)on comparing Indian IT tech numbers (along w/ Israel, Ireland, Singapore) to the worlds (mainly US, Canada, Europe, Japan...) demand. They only point to one thing. India produces the largest number of English speaking engineers world. And it is not just the IIT`s (more on that later) it is numerous regional Engg, and private institutions (Aptech, NIIT are global leaders in IT training). The rest is quite obvious.
Managers in general. I guess you should look at the total sample and maybe you will get some better insights. I am sure most of them are from American Universities (majority being American, of course). Find out where most MBA`s are awarded. Some traits a lot of them have is good education, good communication skills. Then look at the ratio vis-a-vis the numbers of MBA schools or graduates. American universities are the breeding grounds for a lot more than just IT managers anyway !!!

Numbers never lie. You can always find patterns occuring in nature. But the use of gandaa filters like Indo-Pak with produce gandh. ie bad data.

Getting back to the perverision in the Indo-Pak filter. There are more Indian IT techs in the world than Indian IT managers because Indian Engg and tech institutes are producing far more graduates than Indian MBA schools. With respect to Pakistan it is probably something like most Pak IT immigrants are from the middle-upper ``educated`` class, since there isn`t any other enabler like abundance of IT schools or MBA schools. Look at Pak graduate school populations and I am sure you will see some interesting patterns. Compare these to Indian and Chinese grad school populations. Then also see how MANY Indian IT mgrs exist vis-a-vis Pakistan IT mgrs. Do the same for IT techs. Regardless, this is all quite perverse the way you guys are trying to use this data.

If you are thinking about mining your web site`s data at some point. Please do not use such ridiculous filters. :-)
(the other ones being of the nature of ``Pakistanis in general.... vis-a-vis Indians in general on this site, etc.)
Remember the numbers make everything sane. Saying things like Indian site, Pakistani site to explain your ridiculous filters (biases) is useless. Especially if you provide material which is of interest (for various reasons) to both. There are more Indian web brwosing people than Pakistan, we can ``take-over`` this site ie (more Indian users before I trigger some sort of Cyber Jehad somewhere ;-)

regards

Re: Umairr

Unsuccessful/ Under-represented/ flatulent/ One-legged.... doesn`t matter what quality you referred to. What matters is that you made a generalization based on what one moron said. But I am glad you see your mistake.

As far as me cooling down.... I`m pretty cool. There was a little bit of facetiousness in the way in which I used the `F` word and used all caps.... but its tough to convey that in writing. Guess I should`ve used a smiley like so :)

Anyway... the gist of what is pissing me off lately (and my ire was directed more at fairdinkum than you) can be conveyed by this other post that I put up on another thread, which I reproduce below:

When a person belonging to a certain sect makes a derogatory remark about you and/or your sect you could conclude one of two things:

1. That person is a bigot, lacks integrity, intellect & character.

2. That person`s entire sect lacks integrity, intellect & character.

So when you respond to that person.... and you do not criticize them personally but their entire sect, it means that you concluded the latter. That makes the two of you no different from each other!

I hope you agree with me on this!

And as far as Indian visitors to this site being more `defensive`, I think you are correct in deducing that it is probably due to their perception of being in a `Pakistani` site. I have long been a strong opponent of this concept. This place belongs to all of us and nothing irks me more than otherwise intelligent people abusing each other`s ancestry like animals.

``Military muscle is never built up to remain inert for long``.

This is simply incorrect. You don`t do things simply because you can do them.

Military strength gives a country more flexibility in its foreign policy than the alternative. But do not draw the inference, for example, that because India has not tried to march into Lahore, it cannot. ( Can it or can it not, I do not know, but the inference above is wrong.)

This is because use of the military is subordinate to the nation`s overall goals; and in the above case, the question would be -- what would India gain by marching into Lahore ?

If you don`t ask such questions, you get results like those of Operation Gibraltor or Kargil.

-arun gupta

Anil re:113

While MAD was the generally accepted result of any nuclear confrontation, the numerically inferior NATO never made any statements regarding `No First Use`, in comparison with the Warsaw Pact, which loudly heralded its `No First Use` policy. In that respect, it`s easy for India to say that in regards to Pakistan it will not use nuclear weapons.. I was wondering if the same held true vis a vis China. Keeping in mind that China too has categorically stated that it has a `No First Use` policy.

Dunno about Indo-China bridge building, but it would be nice if there are active Track 2 efforts going on between India and Pakistan. After all, Sri Lanka has shown the unprecedented example of the militaries of India, Pakistan and Israel working together.

the happyone #120

:And when some moron from India makes a stupid hateful remark...Why do some Pakistani`s have to take pot shots at all Indians and India?? How the F_CK is this guy a representative of my entire country, religion & culture?? The same applies to Indians. When some mouth frothing Paki puts out a call to put all kaffirs to sword.... DONT TAKE POT SHOTS AT PAKISTAN!! Criticize the moron who makes a hateful statement... not his maan, bahen, bhai, prime-minister, clergy, religion, constitution....

I object to that conclusion. I can assure you that I am very intelligent. And my academic record and business success would prove that beyond any doubt. It is all question of bottom line. When businesses are hurting due to some policy of govt they lobby hard to change the govt policies. If All overseas pakis suffer because of their govt policies, they will do the same. And they have the power to change. Only problem is they are too lazy. Unless it affects them they dont. Since most of offshore paki business men depend on Indians to buy, we can effectively boycott and let them lobby for us. As far as the IT is concerrned, we do make lots of money but usually with people you trust. So we voluntarily never team up with pakis, ask for different assignment when pakis are in our team etc. It is all gandhian non-cooperation you see. If they dont see any consequences of antagonizing india, they will be happily pontificating on chowk and sending checks to musharaf. Be a man, own up to your govt. Friendship with indians was your right but you lost it. The more your mad govt screws up things the more distant the overseas indians would become to you. It is our small contribution to make you see reason. We dont know how to use guns nor work up a religious fervor. All we can do is not help you make zillions. A 1000 mile jouney starts with a small step. Maybe we will see you all in homeless shelters writing letters to musharaf to change his policies and forget kashmir:)

the happy one: #120: ``You sir, based on vsn`s (suspiciously fictional) post have derived the reason why Indians are not successful as managers.``

I agree. It is incorrect of me to base an evaluation of all Indian IT managers on vsn`s comments.

However, I never stated that Indians are unsuccessful as IT managers. I just stated that they are under-represented or have under-performed, and asked the readers to make the decision themselves. If the decision you have made is that Indians are unsuccessful managers, then please don`t assume I have reached the same conclusion.

``And while I`m at it...What is with this stupid assertion that people like Umairr and Fairdinkum make all the time? That Pakistanis are more balanced and un-biased than Indians???``

Actually I do not think Pakistanis are more balanced in most situations than Indians. Infact, my own experience is that Indians, on an individual basis, are quite a bit less aggressive than Pakistanis, and do not get angry as quickly. I have stated that in my replies many times.

I also do not think Indians are more biased than Pakistanis, in general. I just think Indians practice less self-criticism than Pakistanis in areas related to Indo/Pak conflicts; thus making them more biased in this specific area only. I believe this to be a fact, because many Pakistanis (including myself) have equally criticized India and Pakistan on conflicts, human rights violations, etc.(you can read any of my replies). While almost all Indians, with the exception of Shankar, Amit and a few others, only point out conflicts, human rights violations in which Pakistan is the guilty party (once again, you can read their replies). So this to me is a fact; at least on this site.

There are certain other contradictions in your reply:

``How the F_CK is this guy a representative of my entire country, religion & culture??``

``WHAT THE F_CK IS WRONG WITH YOU??``

You then state:

``STOP HATING!! ACT NORMAL!!``

Do you see the contradictions in your own stance? I think you are getting this site get to you. Any debating format involves attacks and counter-attacks. As long as they are based on fact, and on a uniform principle, no one can disregard them. In any case, no website or discussion is worth getting an increase in one`s blood pressure. :) So, you need to cool down :)

In brief (or sitting in my briefs; as I write this post :)), I agree with your criticism of my reply w.r.t. to using vsn`s comments being a benchmark for all Indian managers. That was uncalled for from my side (it was a flash of grammatical brilliance, but intellectual incompetence; I let the former get the better of the later). I apologize if I offended anyone. For the record, I am not quite sure why Indians are so under-represented in US IT management in ratio, to the total numbers of Indians in the US IT industry. There are many points of view regarding this, and I have yet to decide which is the most accurate.

I do not however agree with the other portions of your criticism regarding my replies. I stand by the fact that Pakistanis, at least on this site, have been more comfortable with self-criticism, and tend to look at Indo/Pak conflicts more objectively than Indians. Perhaps, it is becuase they view this as, ``Pakistani`` site and do not feel they need to defend themselves. And perhaps the Indians view this as a, ``Pakistani`` site, and feel they need to defend India (and would thus practice more self-criticism on an, ``Indian`` site). I do not know the reason, but I still stand by my statement.

RE; Layman #112

Thanks for your reply. This page has been hijacked by dogs of war. We will discuss this issue in detail at a sanner board, sometime.

It is always amazing to see that people hold such extreme views as vsn and Ramesh obviously do. The most charitable view is to believe that they do so out of ignorance. And that is exactly the problem which bedevils Indo-pak relations-We don`t know enough about each other. Hence our views of the other are often one-sided, and too easily influenced by injuries, real and imagined.

I think nobody in their right minds can deny that India has often behaved like the local bully. Its role in East Bengal in 1971 is the role model for the current Pakistani involvement in Kashmir. We have little to say for ourselves in Siachen. And many of our actions are conspicous by the absense of the friendliness that we demand from Pakistan.

That said, Pakistan is no saint either. From 1965 till today it has determinedly done everything in its power to actively seek India`s hostility. Even if we leave out Kashmir as a genuine problem, Pakistan has hurt India often and without provocation: from the Bombay blasts to Khalistan to printing fake Indian currency to supporting violent, shadowy fundamentalist movements in India. Its support to forces working against the Indian state is not something that they even bother to deny. And Umairr, India may be wrong in Siachen, but Kargil destroyed the path to peace that both our leaders were trying to build. We may have been suspicious about the motives and doubtful about the outcomes, but we never really got a chance to find out, did we?

And yet I think there is going to be peace, and in our lifetime. What lends me confidence in asserting this is my conviction that this is what people all over the sub-continent want. We may not be ready to embrace each other, but most of us are ready to live and let live. Sooner or later this desire is going to force our leaders to talk. And it is true, whether we believe it or not, that even in the worst of times both our nations have behaved very responsibly. In times of war, civilian areas have not been targetted and civilian casualities have been kept lower than the US can despite all its smart (?) weapons.

Secondly economics is going to push us together if nothing else does. At this juncture non-cooperation hurts Pakistan more. But India too stands to gain a lot from regional co-operation.

-narain

In response to Jay (Reply # 115)
Dear Jay:

In your reply to Feroz, you wrote: ``Pl donot take my comments personally and it is for that reason I avoid one-to-one exchanges after I had a very legthy one with bilal ahmed a few years ago.``

Like Feroz, I also never took your posts personally. However, I am not convinced that in your posts you have shown an adequate understanding of the extremely complex nature of the unfortunate events associated with the creation of Pakistan (and the Partition of India). Your writings, in my view, tend to demostrate the kind of frustrations that an intelligent Indian generally lives with. One way to minimize these frustrations is to develop empathy (as I previously suggested to you). Empathy is, in my view, an essential requirement for peaceful coexistence.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

i`d implore all to pick up the september issue of the atlantic monthly, and read the article on pakistan...the authour makes the argument that pakistan is a yugoslavia waiting to happen, with the added horror of nukes. i`d also note that the authour makes his argument without once mentioning pakistan vis-a-vis india. in other words, pakistan can and will fail all by itself.

maybe cats like that fool jay have a point when they say we, as pakis, attempt to gloss over the real troubles pakistan is facing. it is absurd, absolutely absurd, to imagine that an army of techies can help pakistan, with the real problems she faces.

re: sac`s impetus for writing the article

``We have never defined ourselves in our own right - only in relation to India. That is our tragedy.``