The Ongoing IT Revolution and Security Implications for Pakistan
sac August 27, 2000
#186 Posted by sadna on August 31, 2000 7:16:51 pm
sac
The things we have to do! A number of my(and others) earlier (mature)posts went unnoticed by you, kyaa kare`n :-).
Sadhana
The things we have to do! A number of my(and others) earlier (mature)posts went unnoticed by you, kyaa kare`n :-).
Sadhana
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#185 Posted by tahmed321 on August 31, 2000 7:06:02 pm
sadna #180 That was a classy ``mea culpa`` (concering the ``temporary lapse``). No problem.
#184 Posted by sac on August 31, 2000 7:06:02 pm
re sadna and fairdinkum:
guys: I look forward to your submissions on Chowk with a lot of interest. I am somewhat disappointed by the immaturity both of you exhibited this morning. fairdinkum has madeup for it by asking for clemency and Sadhana has mentioned Ayn Rand which means as far as I am concerned all is forgiven. Can we please be a little more civil in the future?
vsn: You`ve made your point. Can you please go away and terrorise some other board for a change? How about joining the discussion temporal and Rehan are having about sex? I am sure you have some invaluable insights on the subject.
RSaxena: My dear man:(I don`t think I am going to say that again) scout is pulling your eh..leg.She is going to end up with some bearded fellow from Khanewal who can buy her a couple of Ferraris...with cash. You should visit certain neighborhoods in Queens for better results.
scout:I have the address of this guy from Khanewal....you know feudal background,ivy-league dropout....hates Indians!! please e-mail me if interested at gandhi_patel@vsn.com
later
-sac
guys: I look forward to your submissions on Chowk with a lot of interest. I am somewhat disappointed by the immaturity both of you exhibited this morning. fairdinkum has madeup for it by asking for clemency and Sadhana has mentioned Ayn Rand which means as far as I am concerned all is forgiven. Can we please be a little more civil in the future?
vsn: You`ve made your point. Can you please go away and terrorise some other board for a change? How about joining the discussion temporal and Rehan are having about sex? I am sure you have some invaluable insights on the subject.
RSaxena: My dear man:(I don`t think I am going to say that again) scout is pulling your eh..leg.She is going to end up with some bearded fellow from Khanewal who can buy her a couple of Ferraris...with cash. You should visit certain neighborhoods in Queens for better results.
scout:I have the address of this guy from Khanewal....you know feudal background,ivy-league dropout....hates Indians!! please e-mail me if interested at gandhi_patel@vsn.com
later
-sac
#183 Posted by scout on August 31, 2000 7:06:02 pm
rsaxena #55, ``You can`t make people believe in something out of necessity...it will never be genuine.``
Well said.
`` I believe that in Islam no inter-religious marriages can take place without conversion of the kafir to Islam.``
Yes Islam is a strict religion. But the one thing I`ve noticed is that Islam embraces converts and marriages are possible (providing the converting party has a deep understanding of what he/she is getting into). Religion is no joke, to those who practice it sincerely. Pushing the negativity of Islamic fundamentalism aside, Islam is probably the most convert-friendly religion in the world. It`s given direction to many, most notably African Americans, who`ve found in it, a religion that does not distinguish between birth, color, or social standing. In Muslim African American communities, the crime rates are astonishingly low. Why? Islam has given them direction, respect, and a high level of moral behavior. In Judaism, conversion is a difficult process and converts aren`t treated with the same equality and respect.
Sorry for getting off the subject. Just had to send something positive out there, even though I am not a very ``religious`` person.
scout
Well said.
`` I believe that in Islam no inter-religious marriages can take place without conversion of the kafir to Islam.``
Yes Islam is a strict religion. But the one thing I`ve noticed is that Islam embraces converts and marriages are possible (providing the converting party has a deep understanding of what he/she is getting into). Religion is no joke, to those who practice it sincerely. Pushing the negativity of Islamic fundamentalism aside, Islam is probably the most convert-friendly religion in the world. It`s given direction to many, most notably African Americans, who`ve found in it, a religion that does not distinguish between birth, color, or social standing. In Muslim African American communities, the crime rates are astonishingly low. Why? Islam has given them direction, respect, and a high level of moral behavior. In Judaism, conversion is a difficult process and converts aren`t treated with the same equality and respect.
Sorry for getting off the subject. Just had to send something positive out there, even though I am not a very ``religious`` person.
scout
#182 Posted by mohajir on August 31, 2000 7:06:02 pm
20,000 Jihadis trained in Peshawar University- ABC News
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/abu000830.html
Deadly Pakistani University
As the Soviet Union withdrew its troops from Afghanistan in 1989, the CIA’s powerful Pakistani partner, the ISI (Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate) found itself losing control of the Afghan fighting groups.
Although the ISI continued to train and equip some for warfare against India in Kashmir and Punjab provinces, Abu Sayyaf had also established a “university,” north of Peshawar, Pakistan, to train terrorists in the methods taught by the CIA and ISI.
Senior Pakistani police officials said it trained terrorists for the Philippines, the Middle East, North Africa — and New York — and a senior Pakistani officer acknowledges that 20,000 volunteers were trained in the Peshawar “university” and that after the 1979-89 war ended, the alumni “looked for other wars to fight.”
Abu Sayyaf moved operations to the Philippines, ostensibly to support the generations-long battle for an independent Muslim state in the southern islands.
Among their leaders were two brothers, named Qaddafi Aburazak and Qadaffi Janjalani, ostensibly out of their father’s esteem for Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, who has been mixing in Philippine affairs since the 1970s.
Other Afghan veterans ended up stimulating unrest, rebellion and civil wars in Pakistan itself, India, Sudan, Egypt, Algeria, Bosnia, Kosovo and Albania. Their proclaimed goal was to establish Islamic states, according to the commands of God, around the world.
Ramzi Ahmed Youssef, jailed for life for the bombing of the World Trade Center in New York City in 1993, is believed to have frequented Abu Sayyaf school.
Dangerous Alumni
Youssef’s work with Abu Sayyaf became known in 1994. On Dec.11, a bomb aboard a Philippine Airlines (PAL) flight from Manila to Tokyo killed a passenger and injured six others.
The Abu Sayyaf group claimed responsibility for the attack in a phone call.
FBI, CIA and Filipino investigators discovered that Youssef was the master planner of this and other unsuccessful attempts to bomb 11 other airliners, all American, over the Pacific on the same day.
Shortly after the bombing, Filipino security forces raided a Manila flat used by Youssef and found strong evidence of a plot to kill visiting Pope John Paul II when he visited in January 1995.
After a long international manhunt, Youssef was arrested in a safe house belonging to bin Laden in Islamabad, Pakistan. He was extradited to the United States and later given a life sentence in a New York federal court.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/abu000830.html
Deadly Pakistani University
As the Soviet Union withdrew its troops from Afghanistan in 1989, the CIA’s powerful Pakistani partner, the ISI (Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate) found itself losing control of the Afghan fighting groups.
Although the ISI continued to train and equip some for warfare against India in Kashmir and Punjab provinces, Abu Sayyaf had also established a “university,” north of Peshawar, Pakistan, to train terrorists in the methods taught by the CIA and ISI.
Senior Pakistani police officials said it trained terrorists for the Philippines, the Middle East, North Africa — and New York — and a senior Pakistani officer acknowledges that 20,000 volunteers were trained in the Peshawar “university” and that after the 1979-89 war ended, the alumni “looked for other wars to fight.”
Abu Sayyaf moved operations to the Philippines, ostensibly to support the generations-long battle for an independent Muslim state in the southern islands.
Among their leaders were two brothers, named Qaddafi Aburazak and Qadaffi Janjalani, ostensibly out of their father’s esteem for Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, who has been mixing in Philippine affairs since the 1970s.
Other Afghan veterans ended up stimulating unrest, rebellion and civil wars in Pakistan itself, India, Sudan, Egypt, Algeria, Bosnia, Kosovo and Albania. Their proclaimed goal was to establish Islamic states, according to the commands of God, around the world.
Ramzi Ahmed Youssef, jailed for life for the bombing of the World Trade Center in New York City in 1993, is believed to have frequented Abu Sayyaf school.
Dangerous Alumni
Youssef’s work with Abu Sayyaf became known in 1994. On Dec.11, a bomb aboard a Philippine Airlines (PAL) flight from Manila to Tokyo killed a passenger and injured six others.
The Abu Sayyaf group claimed responsibility for the attack in a phone call.
FBI, CIA and Filipino investigators discovered that Youssef was the master planner of this and other unsuccessful attempts to bomb 11 other airliners, all American, over the Pacific on the same day.
Shortly after the bombing, Filipino security forces raided a Manila flat used by Youssef and found strong evidence of a plot to kill visiting Pope John Paul II when he visited in January 1995.
After a long international manhunt, Youssef was arrested in a safe house belonging to bin Laden in Islamabad, Pakistan. He was extradited to the United States and later given a life sentence in a New York federal court.
#181 Posted by rsaxena on August 31, 2000 4:11:48 pm
Re: happy-one
``I hope you understand that the systemic/ economic discrimination you are purporting is the same kind that eventually led to 6 million Jews being slaughtered.``
Oh my, what grade of hash are you smoking and who gave you the bulk quantity discount? Chill out my little leftist friend...chucking resumes (wrong as it may be) is a little removed from gas chambers, despite what your ACLU booklet might suggest. It`s no different than boycotting particular businesses which is not uncommon amongst citizens of warring countries residing in foreign countries.
``I hope you understand that the systemic/ economic discrimination you are purporting is the same kind that eventually led to 6 million Jews being slaughtered.``
Oh my, what grade of hash are you smoking and who gave you the bulk quantity discount? Chill out my little leftist friend...chucking resumes (wrong as it may be) is a little removed from gas chambers, despite what your ACLU booklet might suggest. It`s no different than boycotting particular businesses which is not uncommon amongst citizens of warring countries residing in foreign countries.
#180 Posted by rsaxena on August 31, 2000 4:11:48 pm
Re: scout
``Yeah just like the buffoons who get their underwear in a knot at the mention of something critical of India. One of those buffoons is you.``
I`m surprised to read that coming from you. Was it not just 2 weeks ago that we were trashing our respective countries` lack of sewage systems, illiteracy rates, etc.? You know it`s true...that`s what got that troll gymno a little worked up.
``As for the Pakistani basmati rice, read my post again, you didn`t get the gist of my message and thought I was gloating :)``
Sorry, if I misread it...I`ll go read it again. Got a little excited reading all these posts which brought me back to my element :)
``Nice to see you back to your regular bigoted, sarcastic, snooty self.``
Snooty and sarcastic maybe but not really bigoted if you read between the lines.
``Yeah just like the buffoons who get their underwear in a knot at the mention of something critical of India. One of those buffoons is you.``
I`m surprised to read that coming from you. Was it not just 2 weeks ago that we were trashing our respective countries` lack of sewage systems, illiteracy rates, etc.? You know it`s true...that`s what got that troll gymno a little worked up.
``As for the Pakistani basmati rice, read my post again, you didn`t get the gist of my message and thought I was gloating :)``
Sorry, if I misread it...I`ll go read it again. Got a little excited reading all these posts which brought me back to my element :)
``Nice to see you back to your regular bigoted, sarcastic, snooty self.``
Snooty and sarcastic maybe but not really bigoted if you read between the lines.
#179 Posted by sadna on August 31, 2000 3:00:09 pm
tahmad321
If you will take my previous post to you as a temporary lapse, I will be very grateful.
Since its sac`s board, I am taking a further liberty adding to those I have already taken and am quoting an example from Ayn Rand. She draws a comparison between 2 situations. In one, an artist has a beautiful woman as a model, though the woman has a temporary blemish on her face, she serves his purpose so he paints her beauty and not the blemish. In the second and much different situation, he has the same beautiful model with the same temporary blemish on her face, but he chooses to include the blemish in his picturisation of her beauty.
There is a lot of difference between the artist`s intents in both situations. Its one thing to recognise a problem or blemish, say mutual enmity or sectarian hatred, its quite another thing to aim to deliberately preserve it for all posterity. You`ll realise this applies to Pakistan-India politics and even to IT strategy apparently.
Sadhana
If you will take my previous post to you as a temporary lapse, I will be very grateful.
Since its sac`s board, I am taking a further liberty adding to those I have already taken and am quoting an example from Ayn Rand. She draws a comparison between 2 situations. In one, an artist has a beautiful woman as a model, though the woman has a temporary blemish on her face, she serves his purpose so he paints her beauty and not the blemish. In the second and much different situation, he has the same beautiful model with the same temporary blemish on her face, but he chooses to include the blemish in his picturisation of her beauty.
There is a lot of difference between the artist`s intents in both situations. Its one thing to recognise a problem or blemish, say mutual enmity or sectarian hatred, its quite another thing to aim to deliberately preserve it for all posterity. You`ll realise this applies to Pakistan-India politics and even to IT strategy apparently.
Sadhana
#178 Posted by Urstruly on August 31, 2000 2:18:53 pm
FerozK # 178
Chowk brings out the best in us and also the worst in us.
We need an exorcist for this Demon!.
Chowk brings out the best in us and also the worst in us.
We need an exorcist for this Demon!.
#177 Posted by ferozk on August 31, 2000 2:15:09 pm
Re: All
I have been following the thread on this interact and it seems that the discussion is once again getting personalized. Please refrain from personal attacks, because they will get you, or the argument you are making no where!
Please keep a modicum of civilility in your interacts and please try to show a little more empathy than rancor in your posts!
Thank you!
Ciao!
I have been following the thread on this interact and it seems that the discussion is once again getting personalized. Please refrain from personal attacks, because they will get you, or the argument you are making no where!
Please keep a modicum of civilility in your interacts and please try to show a little more empathy than rancor in your posts!
Thank you!
Ciao!
#176 Posted by Urstruly on August 31, 2000 2:10:31 pm
The Happy One # 172
Please dont try to sugar-coat things and also please dont flatter yourself. Read my post # 145.
Please dont try to sugar-coat things and also please dont flatter yourself. Read my post # 145.
#175 Posted by Urstruly on August 31, 2000 1:51:05 pm
RE: Scout
I am feeling a little Scout-ish today.
The problem might be that, which temporal mentioned somewhere else.
I am feeling a little Scout-ish today.
The problem might be that, which temporal mentioned somewhere else.
#174 Posted by the_happy_one on August 31, 2000 1:44:14 pm
Re: Herr VSN #129,
You say: ``I object to that conclusion. I can assure you that I am very intelligent. And my academic record and business success would prove that beyond any doubt.``
Mien Fuhrer, I request permission to speak freely:
Whether you are `intelligent` or not is a matter of how you define `intelligence`. But do consider the following:
1.If IQ was the only criteria to make one intelligent. Teddy Kaczinsky would be intelligent.
2.If business acumen was the only criteria to make one intelligent. Laloo Yadav would be intelligent.
3.If success was the only criteria to make one intelligent. Dawood Ibrahim would be intelligent.
4.If leadership was the only criteria to make one intelligent. Adolph Hitler nay Pol Freakin Pot would be intelligent.
I hope you get my drift.
I hope you understand that the systemic/ economic discrimination you are purporting is the same kind that eventually led to 6 million Jews being slaughtered. I hope you also understand that during that slaughter the Nazi `intelligencia` was feeling very `intelligent` indeed.
You say: ``I object to that conclusion. I can assure you that I am very intelligent. And my academic record and business success would prove that beyond any doubt.``
Mien Fuhrer, I request permission to speak freely:
Whether you are `intelligent` or not is a matter of how you define `intelligence`. But do consider the following:
1.If IQ was the only criteria to make one intelligent. Teddy Kaczinsky would be intelligent.
2.If business acumen was the only criteria to make one intelligent. Laloo Yadav would be intelligent.
3.If success was the only criteria to make one intelligent. Dawood Ibrahim would be intelligent.
4.If leadership was the only criteria to make one intelligent. Adolph Hitler nay Pol Freakin Pot would be intelligent.
I hope you get my drift.
I hope you understand that the systemic/ economic discrimination you are purporting is the same kind that eventually led to 6 million Jews being slaughtered. I hope you also understand that during that slaughter the Nazi `intelligencia` was feeling very `intelligent` indeed.
#173 Posted by tahmed321 on August 31, 2000 1:44:14 pm
sadna: actually I think most Indians on chowk are badly in need of such encouragement to concern themselves with their own shortcomings rather than pointing to others all the time.
#172 Posted by scout on August 31, 2000 1:44:14 pm
Urstruly,
You seem to be getting into trouble with gals lately? What seems to be the problem?
Sadna,
Would you like protection? I`m here if you need me.
You seem to be getting into trouble with gals lately? What seems to be the problem?
Sadna,
Would you like protection? I`m here if you need me.
#171 Posted by vsn on August 31, 2000 1:44:14 pm
sac #134
Discussion will be focused on this clown vsn now I guess. Can we please leave him alone? I guess not....sigh of resignation!!!!
I dont understrand Why I am a clown, moron, #$%&,.. etc.? I honestly raised a question. Everyone latched on to my throwing away the resumes from paki professionals.
Resume is only symbolic. There are lot of situations where I can legally not buy
services from pakis. They can be offering software services, products, or may be
seeking to be bought out, or partner etc. There otherways pakis are losing out.
If the relationship between the countries is friendly i am sure lot of indians
would have started software companies in karachi, lahore etc. It is extremely
difficult to get people in India now- and if pakis are not ready they would
have started 100s of NIITs. Now they dont do that. They dont get pakis on H1
to here. They dont send engineers from here back to pakistan to train more etc.
To hire a piddly programmer now and then to conform to policy is no big deal.
Forget the details. The pertinent question is are the pakis willing to bear the cost
of non coperation from a group 10 times bigger than them? If you add up what you are
losing to what you may have gained from cooperation it is huge. But still I dont
see anyone lobbying pakistan to change their indian policy. Maybe when the pain
reaches certain thershold they would start lobbying their govt? The pain can only
increase as the IT gap between Indians and pakis increase.
zahra #135
*The Pakistanis - who are your colleagues, neighbors or acquaintances in West, are not hiding in the trenches of Kargil or Siachen; ready to attack. [Hey, we do not believe in reincarnation. Being in two different places at one time is also not an acceptable notion.]
When did I insinuate that pakis in US are hostile to US Indians? On the otherhand
I alleged that they want to be buddies with us becuase it suits them.
- How do you know that the physicians are sponsoring any `madrassas`?
They hosted a lot of fund raisers in support of kashmiri cause. Madrassas
are indirect benificiaries of kashmiri cause.
- Do you know the meaning of a `madrassa`?
I know that they impart some kind midieval education which fills young minds with
hatred towards infidels.
- Are you under the misconception that if you shove the resumes` in a dustbin, you will deprive the candidate from achieving his/her dreams or desired goals ?
no - but i dont want to be on my concscience that I helped him make pots of money
which may find its way to the madrassas.
- Being Muslims, we believe in two very unique concepts: Qismet and Hikmut!
Hindus have been believing in predestiny and karma for millinea. Dont confuse your
hinduness with muslimness.
Discussion will be focused on this clown vsn now I guess. Can we please leave him alone? I guess not....sigh of resignation!!!!
I dont understrand Why I am a clown, moron, #$%&,.. etc.? I honestly raised a question. Everyone latched on to my throwing away the resumes from paki professionals.
Resume is only symbolic. There are lot of situations where I can legally not buy
services from pakis. They can be offering software services, products, or may be
seeking to be bought out, or partner etc. There otherways pakis are losing out.
If the relationship between the countries is friendly i am sure lot of indians
would have started software companies in karachi, lahore etc. It is extremely
difficult to get people in India now- and if pakis are not ready they would
have started 100s of NIITs. Now they dont do that. They dont get pakis on H1
to here. They dont send engineers from here back to pakistan to train more etc.
To hire a piddly programmer now and then to conform to policy is no big deal.
Forget the details. The pertinent question is are the pakis willing to bear the cost
of non coperation from a group 10 times bigger than them? If you add up what you are
losing to what you may have gained from cooperation it is huge. But still I dont
see anyone lobbying pakistan to change their indian policy. Maybe when the pain
reaches certain thershold they would start lobbying their govt? The pain can only
increase as the IT gap between Indians and pakis increase.
zahra #135
*The Pakistanis - who are your colleagues, neighbors or acquaintances in West, are not hiding in the trenches of Kargil or Siachen; ready to attack. [Hey, we do not believe in reincarnation. Being in two different places at one time is also not an acceptable notion.]
When did I insinuate that pakis in US are hostile to US Indians? On the otherhand
I alleged that they want to be buddies with us becuase it suits them.
- How do you know that the physicians are sponsoring any `madrassas`?
They hosted a lot of fund raisers in support of kashmiri cause. Madrassas
are indirect benificiaries of kashmiri cause.
- Do you know the meaning of a `madrassa`?
I know that they impart some kind midieval education which fills young minds with
hatred towards infidels.
- Are you under the misconception that if you shove the resumes` in a dustbin, you will deprive the candidate from achieving his/her dreams or desired goals ?
no - but i dont want to be on my concscience that I helped him make pots of money
which may find its way to the madrassas.
- Being Muslims, we believe in two very unique concepts: Qismet and Hikmut!
Hindus have been believing in predestiny and karma for millinea. Dont confuse your
hinduness with muslimness.
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