The Ongoing IT Revolution and Security Implications for Pakistan

We say Kargil, you say Siachen-

You say moral duty to oppose human right abuses; we say terrorism-pure & simple.

We say tomaeto, you say tamaato!

My God this is never going to end!

India/Pakistan, hindu/muslim grudges (real or imagined) go back forever. Unless & until both sides freemly admit that both have made mistakes & there is plenty of dirt under both our fingernails & neither of us have earned the right to take the high moral ground , we are headed towards nuclear annihilation. IT/YT is not going to mean a damn thing.

Just a thought...

Umairr,

Let me take this opportunity to thank you for your kind words. I reciprocate your admiration. Chowk has given me a new found respect for Pakistanis like yourself, Bilal, tahmed, Sameer,Feroze & many many others.

The fact that you & tahmed take responsibilities as employers with the highest moral values should be an inspiration to us all. As far as I`m concerened, you guys stand for what real muslims are all about.

BTW, are you the same Umairr of the wordwallah & clickmarks fame?! I cant be sure because the name sometimes has two ``m``s & ends with two ``r``s. If you are, my hats off to you, youre a real genious! If not, it doesnt make an iota of difference. Youre a hell of a nice guy in my book, just the same. Let me know in either case:)

This is my personal opinion. I dont think the views of most Indians on Chowk completely represents what most Indians feel about their country & Pakistan. I think it just comes out that way.

In my personal experience, when Indians are by themselves & discussing India, they put down & criticise India more than what Pakistanis do here on Chowk. They also admire Pakistan`s economic accomplishments (past accomplishments) & prowess in sports. They may do it,perhaps, grudginly & enviously, but we`re only human yaar:)

For some reason, when Pakistanis are present & say the same thing about India, they start circling their wagons, and become defensive. Some of them throw gobs of mud at you because they feel that offense is the best defence.

But then, you must admit that there are enough guys on your side of the fence who splatter us with mud as well. Who throws more mud is a subjective impression & ,IMHO, an excercise in futility. After all, we humans tend to remember the gobs of mud that went splat on our face,more than the number of mud balls we`ve thrown over the fence.

I`ve learnt about this curious human phenomena from none other than my good ole mother. She would be extremely critical of her children. But if anyone from outside our family even dared to say anything critical of us, God help them!! She`d pick up the nearest sword & hack their heads off :)

I`ve also found that most of those Indians that are extremely critical of Pakistan are privately extremely critical of India as well. For eg, if you follow RSaxena`s posts carefully, he lashes out at India vociferously (when his guard is down).

Er-one last thing, please dont tell Saxena I said that about him. Otherwise we`ll have to endure his crap all over again--

GDR

(grinning, ducking & running)

RE: tahmad321 #232

Nerd!

Dear chowkwallas,

Just thought I would share a mini-IT revolution I just had after replacing phone wire with cable modem this morning at home. Cable Modem clocked at 1,519 kb (a little bit more than 40kb via phone!) which I believe is near T1 speeds. Another example of how rapidly this whole business in evolving.

ABC 20/20 Friday September 1, 2000

Why is tiny Hong Kong so rich and gigantic India so poor? One of the most common answers in recent decades has been population density: There are simply too many people in places like India, or so goes the conventional wisdom.



India does have a free press, freedom of religion and expression and a democratic government (elevating its ranking on the less economics-oriented Freedom House survey). Well it`s the largest democracy in the world.

But its thicket of business regulations and bureaucratic restrictions is so dense — and wealth so difficult to create there — that Indians endure a standard of living

as low as that of communist countries. John Stossel visits Calcutta, India interviews prominent Indians in USA Dinesh D`souza, Silicon Valley CEO Kanwal Rekhi and West Bengal politicians.

http://abcnews.go.com/onair/DailyNews/chat_stossel0901.html

Chat with John Stossel

Moderator: Why did you choose to focus on Hong Kong and India in your program?



John Stossel: Because so many people believe natural resources are the key to success and high population the root to failure. India and Hong Kong demonstrate the falsity of that.

Moderator: What are some concrete steps that nations like India and North Korea could take to improve their current conditions?



John Stossel: Stop regulating people to death.

Stingray says: Do you seriously think that economic planning, not astronomical population growth, has anything to do with the status of third-world nations?



John Stossel: Yes. Didn`t you just watch the program?

Hysterics in America do believe that population growth is the root of all evil. But Hong Kong, with greater population depth than India, demonstrates that population growth isn`t the problem. Clueless, meddling bureaucrats who think they know better how to run your life are the problem.

manoj (#225): You said [The essential differences between Siachen and Kargil are

1) The boundary/LOC ( call what u want ) was defined in case of Kargil but not in case of Siachen.]

It is true that boundary in Siachen was not well defined. That, however, does not make it right for Indira Gandhi to move in and occupy it. You must accept it as a smaller wrong as compared to the bigger wrong (Kargill bu Pakistan). You must also understand that sometimes a small mistake can lead to a blunder or a small irritant over period becomes major problem.

Not only Umairr but many other Pakistanis have thoroughly criticized Pakistani actions of Kargill. On the other hand, Saichen incident is treated as you did by most Indians. There should have been enough criticism of it as unnecessary and lead to inflammable situation. Very few Indians have openly criticized Indira Gandhi`s handling of Khalistan Movement, Operation Blue Star, its aftermath and even less are critical of Indian Military moving into Siachen. In case of Khalistan, I am sorry to say, but it appears only some Punjabis are critical of it-less than 5 percent of Indian population. You compare this with almost across the board criticism by Pakistanis from all ethnic groups, of Pakistani handling of Balochi uprising during Z. A. Bhutto`s regime.

I agree with sac`s contention of Pakistsn`s security implications of India`s IT successes. The business interests of capitalist world dictate the foreign policies and strategic relationships as reflected in the warming up of Indo-West relationships. It is a bad sign for Pakistani interests as defined by successive Pakistani govenments-the dominating anti-India segment of identity and future outlook. Although I agree with Sac about the need for Pakistan to implement IT policies on war-footing but an improvement of relationships with India is even more important. It will require a change of vision-a vision where India and Indians are not seen as a threat to the security and well-being of Pakistan and Pakistanis respectively.

Funny, all this tamasha started out with a terribly thought out piece with the logical consistency of swiss cheese.

Assad_K #220

I have confidence in the pakistanis in US. They are great at what they do - heck

if not for their govt screwing up things I would have used them and made tons

of money. Some of the great sales people I know are paki - Forget whites, they leave

tehm in the dust. All I am asking from them is not do fund raisers or lobby

politically for their govt until their govt minds its business. If things get harder here they

can start raising money for pro indian political parties back home. I am sure

they will come up with lot of ways, being the versatile people they are. You

can do it man - try harder.

Ummair #

I show ur previous posts regarding, Pakistanis criticising more India-Pak conflicts than Indian. This is the first time I saw someone saying ``Pakistan was wrong in attacking Kargil``. I would have appreciated if you would have said morally wrong. This is the reason why I say that:

1)All the criticism of India-Pak conflict from Pakistanis is based on the Idea that wether it benifited ``Pakistan`` or ``India``. It is not based on wehter it is morally right or wrong. There criticism is that now the world think Pakistan is bad so Pakistan so Pakistan is at lost, so Pakistan should not have done it. It gave India an edge.

2)Injustice to innocent people in Kashmir, is always blamed on Indian Army. If they happen to Kashmiri it is because, Indian are bad to Kashmiris. If it happen to be Hindus, than Indian army did it to give bad name to Pakistan. I might have missed, but the Post I saw were.. asking for prooves that it was done by militants and not Indian army(see Krashid previous Posts.)

3)I never saw anyone talking about Pakistan`s army direct involvement in Kashmir affair. It is more than just moral support.

3)Without knowing the actual numbers it is difficult to say that for every Indian soldier hurt, there is a Pakistani soldier hurt. I personally feel that there should be a global organisation to help families of soldiers, irrespective of the country they belong to.Long back I remember this, a hindu women in Kashmir was widowed on her wedding day. They killed her husband during marriage (not sure if it was before the marriage was complete or after).

The type of Pakistanis`s criticism does not to me in any way indicate that, Pakistani criticise Pakistan more in India-Pak conflicts than Indians do.

Regarding Siachen, and comparing it to Kargil.. is little far fetched. This is why Kargil generated so much of attention/emotion where as Siachen does not (somebody already posted Indian`s point of view on Siachen). One more thing, Indian thought that Pakistan is going to occupy that post. So they pre-empted them. Now Pakistan wants to have bilateral withdraw.. ah ha. Do you think Pakistan would have withdrawn if they had got there first?

Saying India is trying to bleed Pakistan and make it poorer. A poor country trying to make another poor. The list of complaints against Pakistan from Indians is long too, like supporting terrorism, increasing religious dis-harmony among religious group and even introducing fake currency.

It will be in India`s interest if there is peace. If there is peace, India will move forward I think at a greater rate than Pakistan. I feel that Pakistan will hate that (you see how we feel about each other and I think we are good educated common man).

Indian criticise themselves internally much more. We say Caste system is wrong and try to fix it. I have never seen a Pakistani saying hey it is unfair to say ``a man can have multiple wives``. This was just an example, I am not sure if this is written in someone religious book.

I think that if we believe that Pakistan is being harmful to India and on the wrong side, than Indians should try to see how they can change Pakistan`s attitude (Same is true if Pakistani`s also want to change Indian attitude and Indians are wrong). One reason why Pakistan behaves the way it does, is because it has nothing to loose. It does not have significant Hindu population so can preach hatredness for them. Majority are good, but they keep quiet as it does not hurt them. Indians cannot say any one religion is bad as they have ``many`` religions living together. So they have something to loose. (This is same as Germans can be racist, but Americans cannot afford to be racist. This does not mean there are no racist American). It is only now that Pakistan seems to be ``loosing`` for enemity with India. I am not sure how long this will last. First Americans helped/used them. If China gets rich it will help/use them. (Enemity always costs, but we do not always realise that).

If I believed that, boycotting Pakistani product would hurt them significantly to make the common man speak up, I would have encouraged it.

I think we all are good, but not saint. We need a reason to express our goodness. Some time it only comes out when we have something to loose. Maybe this is a case of ``No love without fear``.

The main cause for all this India-Pak problem is mis-trust among each other and not enough believe in human goodness or God.

Pakistanis think ``India is out to destroy them and wipe them out``. Honestly as an Indian, I never had these feeling neither found these feeling in other Indians. I only came to know of these when someone wrote in an article why Pakistanis fear India. It is true that Indians do not have very high opinion of Pakistan, they will laugh if someone says ``Pakistan wants peace``. I think (not sure because of Kashmir or Kargil, they feeled hurt), Indians are becoming more agressive toward Pakistan. Recent church blasts in south again were related to a group which had connection to Pakistan (this state is being ruled by Congress).

Indians think: ``Pakistan hates the idea of India moving ahead and becoming powerful. They want to divide India and weaken it``. When I see the posts here and read dawn, there is a strange sense of comparing to ``India``. In dawn there was an article comparing Jinnah to Gandhi. I do not think the two can be compared. If we live Pakistanis and Indians view aside, see how many foreign countries talk about Jinnaha or Gandhi. If I am wrong, let me know. I being an Indian may not have heard about Jinnah. Such unhealthy comparisions will generate jealousy and hatredness in Pakistanis. Trying to compare and have progress is good thing.

Vijay

All this is nothing but a feeble attempt to gain parity between india and pakistan in IT as in other fields.

what crap !!

we export 3.5 billion$ worth of s/w and the pakistani exports are no more than 30 million$.

yep. we do a lot of ``low end`` stuff. data entry, medical/legal transcription, customer support. we need the money and the jobs.

if they don`t want to open ``sweat-shops`` its their problem. with forex reserves of 1 billion$, that`s a great idea infact.

ever heard of a tech start-up from pakistan ( with all it`s `quality` contribution towards IT and science in general).

hello where are you ? (the 6 patents chap)

till date they have produced 5000 phds ( mostly islamic studies). patents. myfoot.

we have companies working in the field of optical networking, next gen. networking, bluetooth, WAP etc. tejas, alopa, xybridge, SAS to name a few.

we have got more important things to do than ``indopak co-operation`` in IT.

lets just stick to kashmir and hindu/muslim stuff

and leave sane things like IT/pharma aside.

regards

nchiket

BTW IITs are no longer undergraduate institutes. the focus now is on more research activities. hopefully we`ll be able to contribute more.

Umaair,

you make some very relevant points. However, i would like to give some clarifications.

The essential differences between Siachen and Kargil are

1) The boundary/LOC ( call what u want ) was defined in case of Kargil but not in case of Siachen.

The last point on LOC is NJ 4982 . Subsequent to this the LOC is not defined. Further to this the line was to run in a northerly direction. Pakistan was trying to redine the definition of Northerly by sending mountaineering expeditionso as to lay claim on more terriroty. The Indian attempt in siachen was to abort this attempt. So the capture of some peaks/passes was planned by both the armies. However, the Indian army reached first and so commands the area, though at a high cost. The transgression in Kargil was across a line which was agreed as per a signed document. This is why Indians potray Kargil as a stab in the back.

2) In Siachen , India never said that some ` holy warriors` had captured the peaks/passes. Quite unlike the Pakis who claimed that `Mujahids` had captured the peaks in Kargil. To boot we got illustrious/legendary Paki generals on tape. That is besides the point that not one country in the world believed the Paki version. I am not sure what the Pakistanis believe. Would be keen to know from you. So again a paki lie , which is why Indians see it as a stab in the back.

3) Last but not the least Kargil came after Lahore yatra. This was in the opinion of Indians , the medival Pakistani mentality. The timing of Kargil and role of Paki army was why Indians see it as a stab in the back

I would really appreciate a riposte from you on the points mentioned above. However, it is true that ordinary/poor men are paying for the follies of their respective governments. The so called ` mujahids ` from pakistan are really misguided POOR men, fighting aginst Indian army where the soldiers are basically POOR farmers, and between these two it is the POOR people of Kashmir who are getting squeezed.

The children of the elite are in USA/ Europe fighting their jehads/Yudh on the net in airconditioned comfort holding a Carlsberg!!!!

And if you are NOT bringing your biases in recruiting people , I salute you.

To all those who were criticizing vsn:

Did the world (including India) not boycott South Africa while it was a practitioner of apartheid? And restored normal relaations once apartheid ended?

What`s wrong with Indians boycotting Pakistanis so long as Pakistan foments militancy in India? Would you expect Indians to be lovey-dovey while their people are being killed and property destroyed?

In fact I would call upon all right thinking people of the world to boycott Pakistan and Pakistanis till their govt mends its ways.

Pankaj#213

I don`t buy your logic.

Even if it were not Kargil, there would be discrimination. I know it firsthand.

It is related to herd mentality, for other groups not to enter the market in competition.

Whites don`t rule the world for nothing. They go for what is beneficial. They even discriminate against their own people (whites from other countries) in favor of Asians, according to their policy of cultural diversity if you know their immigration laws.

So justifying the wrong attitude, in any name, is not a justification.

Pankaj #213: ``Secondly it is true that India before Kargil is not the same as India after it. With the body of soldiers killed in Kargil returning to their native place almost everywhere in India there was an unprecedented nationalistic fervour.``

Anamika #212 ``In this context, it makes immense sense that an employer would not wish to introduce discord in an office by hiring a Pakistani amongst a large number of Indians.

What seems to be the problem?``

# All other replies from Indians who are looking at only one side of the picture:

If any of you ever get a chance to come to Pakistan, I would like to introduce you to a friend of mine who is a doctor in the Pakistan army. He was in charge of dealing with the soldiers injured in the Siachen conflict. The stories he told me about the conditions of the soldiers he had to operate on, and the ones who died, were unbelievable. One officer in his early twenties had to have his leg chopped off. His fiancé left him because she did not want to marry a one-legged man. For every sad Indian Kargil story, there is a sad Pakistani Siachen story.

Yet most, if not all Indians, only seem concerned about the former, and not the later. Why?

India invaded Siachen, against all rules and regulations of the Simla Agreement (much like Pakistan did in Kargil) in 1984. Pakistan had to send its forces up there to stop the Indian invasion. It took Pakistani soldiers a while to learn and adjust to the hazards of fighting such high-altitude warfare. The result was many deaths and injuries due to frostbite (not to mention Indian firing).

For 16 years there has been, and there still is, a battle going on there in which India is the aggressor. Pakistan has been offering India a bilateral withdrawal for a decade now; but India refuses. India`s basic aim is to attempt to bleed the Pakistani economy through the Siachen conflict, even though it is costing India much more to fight up there than it costs Pakistan. So India is basically trying to bleed Pakistan at the cost of the poor people of India.

India is still attacking Pakistan in Siachen. However, Pakistan backed out of Kargil after only a few months. Kargil would not have been required had India not occupied Siachen. Read Brian Cloughley`s, ``History of the Pakistan Army`` to get more details. In any case, both were wrong.

The arrogant attitude of completely disregarding any conflicts in which one`s own country is the aggressor is quite biased, to say the least. If one follows the line of thinking that Indians here seem to be encouraging, i.e. Indians and Pakistanis should boycott each other after or during a conflict, then would you agree that Pakistanis should have boycotted Indians 16 years ago? Where exactly do you think all this boycotting would lead to? In my opinion, it is a pointless exercise.

Pakistan is offering talks to India now, even though India is attacking Pakistanis forces in Siachen. If what you say is true regarding Indians and their current post-Kargil attitudes towards Pakistan, then I am afraid Indians are practicing a great deal of hypocrisy, i.e. they support the aggressions of their own military, but oppose the aggressions of other militaries. Any honorable and principled person would either support both or oppose both.

Regarding the attitudes of the NRIs: you are correct in stating that many NRIs and NRI organizations in the USA are trying their best to harm Pakistan. This includes/included trying to stop Clinton from going to Pakistan, and trying to get Pakistan declared a terrorist state. The few US Congressmen supported by NRIs also have this on top of their agendas. All of this is to harm Pakistan; not to help India. Unfortunately NRIs, who support such points of views, have so far not seen much success. Hypocrisy rarely succeeds.

The Pakistani organizations in the US have done relatively well to defend Pakistan against such Indian organizations (without attacking India, mind you). I am quite sure there will never be enough NRIs in the US to harm Pakistanis. The US society does not work that way. It is impossible for one community to put another out of business; regardless of how hard the former tries. In comparison to the whole US economy, the Indian community`s share is, and will always remain, a minute fraction. Larger than the Pakistani community`s share; but minute, all the same. Even if all the Indians in the US joined together and decided not to hire a single Pakistani, the Pakistanis would still have the remaining 99.9% of the US economy open to them. So boycotting Pakistanis is a useless counter-productive excercise. It is more an attempt to satisfy one`s own hatred, than anything else.

Perhaps Pakistanis have become cynical and jaded, and thus rarely believe the official media in Pakistan. Indians on the other hand seem to believe Zee TV and DoorDarshan completely. Just because the Indian official media would like you to think that Pakistanis are aggressors, and Indians are angels, doesn`t mean that is an accurate description of the whole situation. If you are so enthusiastic about the Indians that were killed by Pakistanis in Kargil (in a couple of months combat), then you should also show some concern for the Pakistan soldiers` widows and families who have been, and still are, victims of the on-going aggression of the Indian military in Siachen.

In my opinion, India was wrong to attack Pakistan in Siachen, and Pakistan was wrong in attacking India at Kargil. I have yet to see an Indian who has the courage to make a similar statement? If an Indian hates Pakistanis, he/she should have the courage to come out and state it outright. It is condescending to attempt to justify the hate by one-sided views of Indo/Pak conflicts.

Despite the fact that Indians are attacking and killing Pakistani soldiers in Siachen right now (many Pakistanis soldiers die or are disfigured due to frostbite, as well), and despite the fact that one of my very close friends was shot down and killed in the recent unchivilrous and cowardly attack by an Indian fighter aircraft on an unarmed Pakistani Naval reconnaissance plane inside Pakistani borders, and despite the fact that I have had many more friends and family members killed by Indian soldiers (or have died in training to defend Pakistan against Indian soldiers) than vice-versa, I still do not hate Indians. I still go to Indian grocery stores, hire Indians, etc. Many of the Indians working for me and my employer are dependent on me to ensure that their US residency papers get processed accurately and correctly. One wrong statement or signature on my part could ruin their future, and I don`t take that responsibility lightly. The thought of making them a victim of my own frustrations, or by-product victims of Indo/Pak conflicts has never crossed my mind. I find it quite disgusting that it crosses the minds of many of the Indians who visit this site. And I find their condescending one-sided justifications based on Kargil even more disgusting.

Why is there a big difference between Pakistani thinking (mine and many others) and the thinking of the many Indians towards whom this reply is directed? Try to figure that out.

vsn#

You may be quadrillionaire.

But your pathetic thoughts, is a shame for whole humanity.

First of all, if you think you are ``Razzaq`` or giver of food because of your position, you are wrong.

Second, nobody can stop a person from achieving. If you think you are stopping one avenue, God opens 100 avenues.

Third, you are in America, and you think that you have fooled Americans (for they provided opportunity for you), but you cannot be fooled (because you only take care of your countrymen).

I can say, only one thing. My employer is a Pakistani, and he also belongs to your species.

So it is not Indian to be narrowminded, or is it?

VSN,

So by denying Pakistanis work, you`re actually trying to do our country a favour. Gosh, I`ll bet all those poor Pakis start phoning home saying that `An Indian just rejected us.. we gotta appease India somehow!`. Or do you not mention that bit to them (`Actually, lads, I won`t even read your resume, you being Paki `n` all, `til Pakistan appeases India, so get busy on those phone lines!`) No doubt those people whom Rsaxena (was it him?) mentioned who reject people on grounds of being black are also doind it for their own good.. to give them a taste of adversity and to encourage them to try harder! We thank you for your contribution towards Peace on Earth.