The Ongoing IT Revolution and Security Implications for Pakistan

Urstruly #202

It appears we have issues, thats nothing new. You appear angered at my view on vsn/Ramesh`s posts if I am not mistaken.

I clearly stated where I stand on vsn in my post #143. I was pointing out the reality of dynamics this side of the border which is as compelling as the dynamics on the other side. Stephen Cohen once said in a discussion(transcript available on the Brookings Institute site) that Kargil was the first TV war for Indians and has had an corresponding impact on public opinion.

Now just pointing out this fact doesnot mean I support such public opinion, in fact I rue it whenever I see evidence of it. I myself was not in India during that period, so I didnot see the coverage.

Finally, this is not a new argument from my side and I havenot been wearing any mask. I donot consider myself liberal/intellectual, I prefer to think optimistic realist, there seems no other way to go. If public support in Pakistan for jihad against India is one hard reality, the hardening of Indian public opinion is another reality. In my opinion, moral outrage expressed about only part of it just doesnot make any sense either for Indians or for Pakistanis, since both realities have to be tackled.

Sadhana

PS: My `temporary lapse` reference was wrt tahmad321 and use of sac`s board for which I apologise to chowk readers. However, if I have made any personally insulting remark to you, in particular, I`m sorry too. I think we ought to agree to disagree on the issues, there is no disrespect in that, surely.

The Happy One # 195

Ok- I am convinced that you belong to the category of those 90%. It kind of restored my faith in the 90% that, I believe, always exists.

I think it is great dishonesty if we do not appreciate vsn for his posts. His posts helped exposed some very ugly faces who were hiding behind the masks of intellectualism and liberalism-playing a masquerade with us for quite a while. Some of them have chosen to go underground for a while, while some others are pleading their case on the bases of temporary (lapse) insanity. It won`t be long that they will be back among us wearing new masks.

Like I said it will be great dishonesty if we do not appreciate the honesty and integrity shown by people like vsn, Rsexana, Jay, (and me, if you insist) et. al. At least they don`t hide their feelings behind intellectualism and blame their gaffes on ``temporary lapses``. One of our great poets has paid his tribute to such people in these words:

``Wafadari B`shart-e ustawari, asl-e ImaN hay
maray b`ut khanay main to K`abba mai n gaaro Brahmin ko``

(Any translation of this couplet by me will ruin its true flavor. Temporal! Would you like to help out here)

vsn #192 Like you, I (a Pakistani) too have in past years hired many individuals, many of them Indians. One of them actually told me when he was leaving for another job that coming straight from India he had not expected to be treated so well by a Pakistani boss. My brother (who heads a successful independant operation in the US) keeps a number of Indian IT types busy in the US and in India writing programs.

Thank God we shall never fall to your petty level. And thank God there is enough work to go around for those willing to apply themselves that no one needs to work for a creep like you.

vsn,

There is nothing wrong in boycotting a corporation or country because you feel their policies are abhorrant to you. That freedom of choice is allowed in the US. What Ramesh is doing ( boycotting Pakistani products & businesses ---whether we agree with his reasoning or not) is perfectly acceptable & definitely not illegal.

However, when you throw a resume of an individual in the garbage just because he/she is a Pakistani is illegal. Its illegal (& immoral) because you automatically assume that he/she is a subversive or a supporter of terrorism just because he/she belongs to a certain nationality. That person is applying for a job as an individual,not as a representative of Pakistan. That kind of prejudice is disallowed in the US.

I`m not a lawyer. If there are any lawyers in the audience, please clarify this point. If a member of the KKK applied for a job in my business & I did`nt hire him because of his affiliation, am I liable? In my lay opinion, the I have to PROVE he is a KKK member & his actions will be detrimental to my business. In other words, the burden of proof is on me.

To all you nutcases from both sides of the line of control.

There is this hindi film song that a father is singing to his Son, It goes something like this.

``Tu Hindu banega na musalman banega,

Insaan ki aulad hai Insaan banega``

Aama yaar leave all this religious girbish somewhere else, talk insaaniyat, talk love.

And if you wanna really do something for your country, then try and improve the lot of poor back home, you would all be doing a great service to humanity as well as your respective nations. Why waste time and energy on a place like chowk, where each for you fools definitly help increase the already existing high levels of hate.

Who benifits from all this. Many times I wonder, how can educated people talk such loose talk. Totally irresponsible behaviour.

All I can do is appeal to all my fellow Indians,

Boss log why waste time and energy. All I can appeal is please do not retaliate in this way. Why should we stoop to such low levels, it doesn`t show us as a cultured civilization.

What we need to do is make India prosperous, that will remove India`s problem, not discussing all these stupid issues in chowk.

Jai Hind.

vsn :

Man, you are just wasting your time here. why give a damn if mushy buys guns for the muj thugs with the money we pay, to run amok ripping open the rib cages of our own people ? just get the hang that feeling of being flattered as an impartial good indian from the paki intellectuals here and you`d realize why the goody-goody indians vie with each other to rain condemnation on you. please GO away. change that damn name from vsn to some xyz, come back and start typing `I unreservedly condemn the morons vsn and ramesh...`

oh, btw, shredding resumes isn`t an offence, only as long as you do it silently ;)

tahmad321 #192
Thanks. Maybe the key to solving these problems is to begin by accepting each other as equal human beings.

sac #191

Cooperation with those you hate, tauba, tauba :-)?

btw, I donot support either vsn or Ramesh`s actions about boycotts because I think nursing such a mindset will make any solution more difficult. However, the fact remains that all are free to act and decide (under law), either to pick up a gun or to put down a packet of Basmati rice.

Sadhana

the happy one #195

-You sir, completely missed my point. Which was to point out to VSN that IQ or business acumen does not guarantee the ability to look at the world with tolerance.

dear happy one sir, in my limited interaction on this board, to me it is you that

comes across to be intolerant - makes me wonder if you are really happy one.

Before jumping on anything that utters the word `discriminate` please use your

power of discrimination. Because unlike some low level life forms we know right

from wrong and are able to discriminate based on judgement. Dont jump to

conclusions that because we can exercise our judgement and stay away from

things that are not good for us, we somehow turn into hitlers. According to

your limited reasoning Gandhi would look like a hitler as he advocated

systematic discrimination by not cooperating with the British. All I was

saying was I chose to employ my discriminatory powers to not to cooperate with

paki americans in hopes that they can influence their govt to pursue a

friendlier policy with India. And they can expect that attitude. Indians

were uncomfortable in dealing with even Sikhs in US in 80s when they were asking

for khalistan. Now we are so close to them with no trace of the bad

feeling. My hope is we can be close with pakis too someday, but to make that

happen you have to make some hard choices.

Re: Rsaxena #182,

I am as much a `leftist` and an `ACLU member` as you are a member of the religious right or Jerry Falwell`s personal choir boy. This particular tactic employed frequently by your kind never fails to crack me up. Keep the entertainment coming.

You are obviously correct in pointing out that killing people is a far cry from basic discrimination, but any half-wit (inebriated or not) would understand that I was talking about attitudes. Let me give you a basic little lesson:

First a certain group of people (usually in the majority) convinces itself that they are morally, ideologically, religiously & racially superior than the other (usually in the minority).

Second this feeling begins manifesting itself in systemic economic & social marginalization of the minority.

Third (very rarely) it results in ethnic cleansing/ genocide.

What is germane to this discussion is that one can not deny that this entire process starts with the basic feeling of superiority over another sect. And throughout this process there is a pervasive sense of moral righteousness exhibited by the discriminating group.

You sir, completely missed my point. Which was to point out to VSN that IQ or business acumen does not guarantee the ability to look at the world with tolerance.

But this whole tolerance business is probably not important to you, what with it being such a `leftist` concept.

Re: Urstruly # 177

I really did not get your point. You asked me not to sugar-coat things. Just what are you referring to? I compared (I stress the word COMPARE before another gremlin jumps at my throat) VSN`s attitude to that of a Nazi, and you are accusing me of `sugar-coating`?? Some kind of a joke?

And you ask me not to flatter myself? Just how did I flatter myself? By implying that there are people in India who do not hate by compulsion? And you proudly point to your own post 145 as some kind of erudite gem. Let me tell you that I have seen few statements as daft as your post #145!

Re: Raxena & Urstruly,

Both of you items are convinced that you are ideologically, morally, religiously & racially superior than the other. As long as we have people like you, the conflict our people share will never be resolved. It is as simple as that!

I have been coming to this site for 2 years. Every 3-4 months I need to get into skirmishes to let off some steam... then I can go back to discussing non-contentious stuff. Mind you I don`t get into India/ Pakistan skirmishes but rather into hatred/ tolerance skirmishes. So thanks all you hatemongers, see ya later!

sadna #180 (continued) To add to the example you give, in the book ``7 habits of highly effective people`` there is a drawing that looks like the face of an attractive young woman, but then (as the author asks us to do) if you try looking hard enough the picture looks like the face of a tired old woman (the young woman`s shirt becomes the old woman`s chin and so forth). The point being made is: different people can look at the same situation very differently. Part of the reason for all the stupid religion/national/linguistic etc. strife in the sub-continent is due to a lack of appreciation of this aspect of the human psyche.

Having thus solved the sub-continent`s religious, national and linguistic problems, I shall try to get back to some late evening work.

re sadna #187:

Dear Sadhana:

Sorry mem sahib. Won`t happen again. As far as your more mature posts are concerned, I think we`ve pretty much established that we diasgree vis-a-vis my recipe for getting the Pakis to move their butt toward participation in the global IT boom in particular and increased economic cooperation with India in all spheres in general.Lets just say the end justifies the means. But then most of my countrymen have chosen to take the high road.I wish them well.

later

-sac

Please! Understand one thing. This amazing series of interacts brings out a simple fact: when all else fails, eat religion!

Religion, along with cricket, should be banned from chowk.

Re: sac

``My dear man:(I don`t think I am going to say that again) scout is pulling your eh..leg.She is going to end up with some bearded fellow from Khanewal who can buy her a couple of Ferraris...with cash. You should visit certain neighborhoods in Queens for better results.``

What in the world are you talking about and what does it have to do with me? Trying to pull a gymno here?

what the hell, chowk meiN bahut bheer ho rahi hai.

I was trying to tell Umair that the stats have to be meaningful, in terms of finding patterns (naturaly occuring) in nature.
So stats like ratio of INITmgr: INITtech
v/s
PKITmgr: PKITtech are absolutely meaningless and show nothing.
I completely believe everything he reports. So INITmgr:INITtech low SO WHAT DOTH THOU CONCLUDE ?
and
PKITmgr:PKITtech higer SO WHAT IS THE CONCLUSION ?

Do INITmgr:PKITmgr and INITtech:PKITtech matter at all ?
Is there a comparison ?
And Why ?

When the relevant enablers and solutions lie elsewhere. (quite simply education in the various ways)

regards

sac #183 ``scout:I have the address of this guy from Khanewal....you know feudal background,ivy-league dropout....hates Indians!! please e-mail me if interested at gandhi_patel@vsn.com``

I don`t get the joke. Yes you may think I`m dumb for not getting it. I`m kind of straightforward.

No, I don`t hate Indians if that`s what you are implying.

scout

#186 is a post for the other article!

sorry *sharminda *