The Ongoing IT Revolution and Security Implications for Pakistan

Feroz,

Pl donot take my comments personally and it is for that reason I avoid one-to-one exchanges after I had a very legthy one with bilal ahmed a few years ago. Your post was used only as a devise to generalise and I fully recognise that the resulting generalisation may not be applicable to you at an individual level.

By the way, it is interesting to note that of late the dawn reports only deaths on the pak side of the border. Deaths on the indian side is not reported, strange, the supportes of jihad are not getting the feed back.

So back to the point, I am yet to meet a bad pakistani, but the collectve pakistan of vanishing hijackers, kargill and jihadic infiltrators is a different matter.

regards and best wishes.

Jay.

gymnosophist # 85,

why the hell are u trying to get religion in between of nationality. and why is it that all u pakistanis so easily forget that there are over 200 million muslims in india?????

i`m not in favour of what vsn is doing, but that doesn`t mean that he is discriminating against muslims. did he say anywhere in his reply that he threw out the applications of those who were muslims???? i don`t think so. so for god`s sake please stop confusing your selves between religion and nationality.

and all those pakistanis who r critical of vsn and ramesh for what they r doing, i sincerely advise u to meet some of the widows of the soldiers who died in kargil. if indians had done the same to your people....take it from me written down, all u pakistanis would be doing the same what ramesh and vsn are doing. infact, i appreciate their guts to say something like this in a public board like chowk.

forget all this....your govt. didn`t even have the decency to accept the bodies of their dead soldiers.

devkant.

Fairdinkum,

{{The disturbing aspect of all this is that I don’t see any Indian telling this bloke that what he is doing is unacceptable behaviour. This is in sharp contrast to Pakistanis who, by and large, are more balanced and unbiased in their criticism.}}

Whoa mere bhai:) Put your gun back in your holster. I know everyone is getting emotional here. When you make such generalisations because youre hurt, you become vulnerable to the same prejudices you find unacceptable.

After all, I`m as much a Pakistani as you are the Pope :)

Shankar,
aap kehtay hain tu rakh layta hoon wapas :)
I stand corrected! And happy to be proven wrong.

Re: Jay # 115

Thanks for the clarification and no, I did not take the words personally. Incidentally, why post it here? I thought that debate was in another interact forum for another article?

Ciao!

Re to scout #108

Dear Scout

I clarified that I have nothing against a common Pakistani who might be very much like me. And I am not ashamed to be a part Pakistani if this is what you imply by eating Basmati rice. I detest Pakistani military and ISI who attack us and kill innocent people. I detest ``Mujahidins`` who use terror as a weapon to enforce their rule. And what you will say about the mutilated body of Capt. Saurabh Kaliya whose sexual organs were dismembered one by one after he was caught POW by Pakistanis. And Pakistani Govt who refused even to accept dead bodies of its own soldiers leaving it for the Indian forces to bury them with all respect. And I have my own way of protesting against all this which I think unjust. It is a non violent non cooperation by free will. And I was not misled by media `coz I was closely asssociated with someone who lost his life in Kargil. I repeat, it is directed against Pakistani military rulers and not Pakistani people. And I do not believe in going on a killing spree. Violence begets violence. I have chosen to punish myself by denying luxuary of eating excellent Pakistani non veg food and cheaper Basmati rice. There are some very sensible Pakistanis here Ferozk and SameerJB to name a few( along with not so smart ones like Krashid(remember badboodar Indians), Hamidm, ylh etc). I wish such sensible people head Pakistani govt so that the perpetual violence in the subcontinent could be ended and Pakistan/India look forward to a prosperous future. Amen.

scout #95

:Hmmm, could I have your real name and the company you work for, or God forbid you own?

God did not forbid. Infact he has been very kind to indians like myself. But am I mad to give my name and my company name on public boards where pakis maybe present? I will be a dead man.

:I know plenty of Pakistani laywers in NY who`d love to get a piece of you, granted you, as you describe yourself, even EXIST.

I thought pakistanis dont care much for the law. Oh sorry that is in pakistan. When they are abroad they want to enjoy full benifit of the law and help their jihadist military maddog spread more anarchy.

:If only the US government knew what the worth of racist desis like you who come here with the letters IT stamped on your forehead was...

US govt made so much money on me it is not even funny. I am not a racist. Pakis are the same race as me. I am just a pragmatist. They dont work well with indians. Maybe when I find an arab software design team I will ask them if they want a paki.

MY responses are being censured in the great mullah tradition of pakistan. If this does not make it too, i give up. All I say is - you cant escape the consequences of your govt actions. By antagonizing 1/6th of humanity you can not live peacefully. To atone for your sins, lobby for democracy in pakistan, lobby to get rid of all madarassas and modernize school system, have a board of experts and agree on common history and drop those funny arab names and have some decent sanskrit names:) hindus dont have anything against islam. if you have sanskrit names they will think that your alla is another avatar of vishnu and will start going to your mosques. If you sit on your fat asses implicitly condoning whatever madmush does, then you deserve what you get. you have BAD KARMA and it will haunt you in this life and the next.

. . . actually, dear Sac, the reference to sac was not paticular but testicular . . . never mind . . . on second thought, yes, we in India WOULD like a vassal state, but to qualify they would have to give us booze, beaches, mountains, good weather, skimpily dressed women of loose morals and tight halter tops, casinos, free currency, and most of all this vassal state would be like Amsterdam in some ways . . . so i guess that leaves you pakistanis out . . . too bad . . .

Re: Fairdinkum #104,

Regarding your lament that Indians are not admonishing this vsn character, see my posts #88, 89.

Re: Umairr #98,

You said: ``While Indians have had a lot of success as IT entrepreneurs, they are highly under-represented (or have highly under-performed; take your pick) in management (one only needs to read your reply to find out why)``.

So the great/ rational/ unbiased/ patient Umairr is asserting that the reason why Indians don`t do well as managers is because they are all like vsn!! That they all can`t make business decisions separate from personal political views!

You sir, based on vsn`s (suspiciously fictional) post have derived the reason why Indians are not successful as managers. This betrays your true nature!!

And when some moron from India makes a stupid hateful remark...Why do some Pakistani`s have to take pot shots at all Indians and India?? How the F_CK is this guy a representative of my entire country, religion & culture?? The same applies to Indians. When some mouth frothing Paki puts out a call to put all kaffirs to sword.... DONT TAKE POT SHOTS AT PAKISTAN!! Criticize the moron who makes a hateful statement... not his maan, bahen, bhai, prime-minister, clergy, religion, constitution....

WHAT THE F_CK IS WRONG WITH YOU??

And while I`m at it...What is with this stupid assertion that people like Umairr and Fairdinkum make all the time? That Pakistanis are more balanced and un-biased than Indians???

Do you see how stupid that sounds? Of course you think Indians are biased and Pakistanis are not! That`s because you are a Pakistani and BIASED!! Every single person here who claims moral superiority over the other is biased!! Wonder why normally intelligent and articulate people make such daft remarks!

STOP HATING!! ACT NORMAL!!

PS: pardon the all caps.

i`d implore all to pick up the september issue of the atlantic monthly, and read the article on pakistan...the authour makes the argument that pakistan is a yugoslavia waiting to happen, with the added horror of nukes. i`d also note that the authour makes his argument without once mentioning pakistan vis-a-vis india. in other words, pakistan can and will fail all by itself.

maybe cats like that fool jay have a point when they say we, as pakis, attempt to gloss over the real troubles pakistan is facing. it is absurd, absolutely absurd, to imagine that an army of techies can help pakistan, with the real problems she faces.

re: sac`s impetus for writing the article

``We have never defined ourselves in our own right - only in relation to India. That is our tragedy.``

In response to Jay (Reply # 115)
Dear Jay:

In your reply to Feroz, you wrote: ``Pl donot take my comments personally and it is for that reason I avoid one-to-one exchanges after I had a very legthy one with bilal ahmed a few years ago.``

Like Feroz, I also never took your posts personally. However, I am not convinced that in your posts you have shown an adequate understanding of the extremely complex nature of the unfortunate events associated with the creation of Pakistan (and the Partition of India). Your writings, in my view, tend to demostrate the kind of frustrations that an intelligent Indian generally lives with. One way to minimize these frustrations is to develop empathy (as I previously suggested to you). Empathy is, in my view, an essential requirement for peaceful coexistence.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

It is always amazing to see that people hold such extreme views as vsn and Ramesh obviously do. The most charitable view is to believe that they do so out of ignorance. And that is exactly the problem which bedevils Indo-pak relations-We don`t know enough about each other. Hence our views of the other are often one-sided, and too easily influenced by injuries, real and imagined.

I think nobody in their right minds can deny that India has often behaved like the local bully. Its role in East Bengal in 1971 is the role model for the current Pakistani involvement in Kashmir. We have little to say for ourselves in Siachen. And many of our actions are conspicous by the absense of the friendliness that we demand from Pakistan.

That said, Pakistan is no saint either. From 1965 till today it has determinedly done everything in its power to actively seek India`s hostility. Even if we leave out Kashmir as a genuine problem, Pakistan has hurt India often and without provocation: from the Bombay blasts to Khalistan to printing fake Indian currency to supporting violent, shadowy fundamentalist movements in India. Its support to forces working against the Indian state is not something that they even bother to deny. And Umairr, India may be wrong in Siachen, but Kargil destroyed the path to peace that both our leaders were trying to build. We may have been suspicious about the motives and doubtful about the outcomes, but we never really got a chance to find out, did we?

And yet I think there is going to be peace, and in our lifetime. What lends me confidence in asserting this is my conviction that this is what people all over the sub-continent want. We may not be ready to embrace each other, but most of us are ready to live and let live. Sooner or later this desire is going to force our leaders to talk. And it is true, whether we believe it or not, that even in the worst of times both our nations have behaved very responsibly. In times of war, civilian areas have not been targetted and civilian casualities have been kept lower than the US can despite all its smart (?) weapons.

Secondly economics is going to push us together if nothing else does. At this juncture non-cooperation hurts Pakistan more. But India too stands to gain a lot from regional co-operation.

-narain

RE; Layman #112

Thanks for your reply. This page has been hijacked by dogs of war. We will discuss this issue in detail at a sanner board, sometime.

the happy one: #120: ``You sir, based on vsn`s (suspiciously fictional) post have derived the reason why Indians are not successful as managers.``

I agree. It is incorrect of me to base an evaluation of all Indian IT managers on vsn`s comments.

However, I never stated that Indians are unsuccessful as IT managers. I just stated that they are under-represented or have under-performed, and asked the readers to make the decision themselves. If the decision you have made is that Indians are unsuccessful managers, then please don`t assume I have reached the same conclusion.

``And while I`m at it...What is with this stupid assertion that people like Umairr and Fairdinkum make all the time? That Pakistanis are more balanced and un-biased than Indians???``

Actually I do not think Pakistanis are more balanced in most situations than Indians. Infact, my own experience is that Indians, on an individual basis, are quite a bit less aggressive than Pakistanis, and do not get angry as quickly. I have stated that in my replies many times.

I also do not think Indians are more biased than Pakistanis, in general. I just think Indians practice less self-criticism than Pakistanis in areas related to Indo/Pak conflicts; thus making them more biased in this specific area only. I believe this to be a fact, because many Pakistanis (including myself) have equally criticized India and Pakistan on conflicts, human rights violations, etc.(you can read any of my replies). While almost all Indians, with the exception of Shankar, Amit and a few others, only point out conflicts, human rights violations in which Pakistan is the guilty party (once again, you can read their replies). So this to me is a fact; at least on this site.

There are certain other contradictions in your reply:

``How the F_CK is this guy a representative of my entire country, religion & culture??``

``WHAT THE F_CK IS WRONG WITH YOU??``

You then state:

``STOP HATING!! ACT NORMAL!!``

Do you see the contradictions in your own stance? I think you are getting this site get to you. Any debating format involves attacks and counter-attacks. As long as they are based on fact, and on a uniform principle, no one can disregard them. In any case, no website or discussion is worth getting an increase in one`s blood pressure. :) So, you need to cool down :)

In brief (or sitting in my briefs; as I write this post :)), I agree with your criticism of my reply w.r.t. to using vsn`s comments being a benchmark for all Indian managers. That was uncalled for from my side (it was a flash of grammatical brilliance, but intellectual incompetence; I let the former get the better of the later). I apologize if I offended anyone. For the record, I am not quite sure why Indians are so under-represented in US IT management in ratio, to the total numbers of Indians in the US IT industry. There are many points of view regarding this, and I have yet to decide which is the most accurate.

I do not however agree with the other portions of your criticism regarding my replies. I stand by the fact that Pakistanis, at least on this site, have been more comfortable with self-criticism, and tend to look at Indo/Pak conflicts more objectively than Indians. Perhaps, it is becuase they view this as, ``Pakistani`` site and do not feel they need to defend themselves. And perhaps the Indians view this as a, ``Pakistani`` site, and feel they need to defend India (and would thus practice more self-criticism on an, ``Indian`` site). I do not know the reason, but I still stand by my statement.

the happyone #120

:And when some moron from India makes a stupid hateful remark...Why do some Pakistani`s have to take pot shots at all Indians and India?? How the F_CK is this guy a representative of my entire country, religion & culture?? The same applies to Indians. When some mouth frothing Paki puts out a call to put all kaffirs to sword.... DONT TAKE POT SHOTS AT PAKISTAN!! Criticize the moron who makes a hateful statement... not his maan, bahen, bhai, prime-minister, clergy, religion, constitution....

I object to that conclusion. I can assure you that I am very intelligent. And my academic record and business success would prove that beyond any doubt. It is all question of bottom line. When businesses are hurting due to some policy of govt they lobby hard to change the govt policies. If All overseas pakis suffer because of their govt policies, they will do the same. And they have the power to change. Only problem is they are too lazy. Unless it affects them they dont. Since most of offshore paki business men depend on Indians to buy, we can effectively boycott and let them lobby for us. As far as the IT is concerrned, we do make lots of money but usually with people you trust. So we voluntarily never team up with pakis, ask for different assignment when pakis are in our team etc. It is all gandhian non-cooperation you see. If they dont see any consequences of antagonizing india, they will be happily pontificating on chowk and sending checks to musharaf. Be a man, own up to your govt. Friendship with indians was your right but you lost it. The more your mad govt screws up things the more distant the overseas indians would become to you. It is our small contribution to make you see reason. We dont know how to use guns nor work up a religious fervor. All we can do is not help you make zillions. A 1000 mile jouney starts with a small step. Maybe we will see you all in homeless shelters writing letters to musharaf to change his policies and forget kashmir:)

Anil re:113

While MAD was the generally accepted result of any nuclear confrontation, the numerically inferior NATO never made any statements regarding `No First Use`, in comparison with the Warsaw Pact, which loudly heralded its `No First Use` policy. In that respect, it`s easy for India to say that in regards to Pakistan it will not use nuclear weapons.. I was wondering if the same held true vis a vis China. Keeping in mind that China too has categorically stated that it has a `No First Use` policy.

Dunno about Indo-China bridge building, but it would be nice if there are active Track 2 efforts going on between India and Pakistan. After all, Sri Lanka has shown the unprecedented example of the militaries of India, Pakistan and Israel working together.