The Ongoing IT Revolution and Security Implications for Pakistan

``Military muscle is never built up to remain inert for long``.

This is simply incorrect. You don`t do things simply because you can do them.

Military strength gives a country more flexibility in its foreign policy than the alternative. But do not draw the inference, for example, that because India has not tried to march into Lahore, it cannot. ( Can it or can it not, I do not know, but the inference above is wrong.)

This is because use of the military is subordinate to the nation`s overall goals; and in the above case, the question would be -- what would India gain by marching into Lahore ?

If you don`t ask such questions, you get results like those of Operation Gibraltor or Kargil.

-arun gupta

Re: Umairr

Unsuccessful/ Under-represented/ flatulent/ One-legged.... doesn`t matter what quality you referred to. What matters is that you made a generalization based on what one moron said. But I am glad you see your mistake.

As far as me cooling down.... I`m pretty cool. There was a little bit of facetiousness in the way in which I used the `F` word and used all caps.... but its tough to convey that in writing. Guess I should`ve used a smiley like so :)

Anyway... the gist of what is pissing me off lately (and my ire was directed more at fairdinkum than you) can be conveyed by this other post that I put up on another thread, which I reproduce below:

When a person belonging to a certain sect makes a derogatory remark about you and/or your sect you could conclude one of two things:

1. That person is a bigot, lacks integrity, intellect & character.

2. That person`s entire sect lacks integrity, intellect & character.

So when you respond to that person.... and you do not criticize them personally but their entire sect, it means that you concluded the latter. That makes the two of you no different from each other!

I hope you agree with me on this!

And as far as Indian visitors to this site being more `defensive`, I think you are correct in deducing that it is probably due to their perception of being in a `Pakistani` site. I have long been a strong opponent of this concept. This place belongs to all of us and nothing irks me more than otherwise intelligent people abusing each other`s ancestry like animals.

re: Umairr

et tu Umairr. I did not think you could be brought down to that level. I did not think that someone who has acommplished so much so quick, even possessed one of those lowly Indo-Pak filters (which allows the user to see every piece of data with Indo-Pak sometimes extending into Hindu-Mulslim perspective ``professional green tint`` version feature !!) Higher level views require fewer lower level filters (quite literally, too, think about it).

In other words, if you are looking at data with this Indo-Pak filter, whatever your goal maybe (???), it results in perverse pleasure and can never lead to anyhing positive or constructive. This applies to anybody and is quite true. I encourage people to try this experiment out themselves. For example, the author suggests reaping the benefits of IT by using India hatred as the enabler. IMHO, I believe he is just a wanna-be political scientist who became one with IT `cause of market conditions.

So he uses stats to prove his point and you join in. His filters render the stats completely useless. The stats do have to be meaningful right.
Lets take your example, stats of Indian IT techs vs IT managers. What does this show ? Especially when you compare it to Pak IT techs vs Pak IT managers.
There are numerous studies (keyword knowlwdge economies)on comparing Indian IT tech numbers (along w/ Israel, Ireland, Singapore) to the worlds (mainly US, Canada, Europe, Japan...) demand. They only point to one thing. India produces the largest number of English speaking engineers world. And it is not just the IIT`s (more on that later) it is numerous regional Engg, and private institutions (Aptech, NIIT are global leaders in IT training). The rest is quite obvious.
Managers in general. I guess you should look at the total sample and maybe you will get some better insights. I am sure most of them are from American Universities (majority being American, of course). Find out where most MBA`s are awarded. Some traits a lot of them have is good education, good communication skills. Then look at the ratio vis-a-vis the numbers of MBA schools or graduates. American universities are the breeding grounds for a lot more than just IT managers anyway !!!

Numbers never lie. You can always find patterns occuring in nature. But the use of gandaa filters like Indo-Pak with produce gandh. ie bad data.

Getting back to the perverision in the Indo-Pak filter. There are more Indian IT techs in the world than Indian IT managers because Indian Engg and tech institutes are producing far more graduates than Indian MBA schools. With respect to Pakistan it is probably something like most Pak IT immigrants are from the middle-upper ``educated`` class, since there isn`t any other enabler like abundance of IT schools or MBA schools. Look at Pak graduate school populations and I am sure you will see some interesting patterns. Compare these to Indian and Chinese grad school populations. Then also see how MANY Indian IT mgrs exist vis-a-vis Pakistan IT mgrs. Do the same for IT techs. Regardless, this is all quite perverse the way you guys are trying to use this data.

If you are thinking about mining your web site`s data at some point. Please do not use such ridiculous filters. :-)
(the other ones being of the nature of ``Pakistanis in general.... vis-a-vis Indians in general on this site, etc.)
Remember the numbers make everything sane. Saying things like Indian site, Pakistani site to explain your ridiculous filters (biases) is useless. Especially if you provide material which is of interest (for various reasons) to both. There are more Indian web brwosing people than Pakistan, we can ``take-over`` this site ie (more Indian users before I trigger some sort of Cyber Jehad somewhere ;-)

regards

Discussion will be focused on this clown vsn now I guess. Can we please leave him alone? I guess not....sigh of resignation!!!!

re Zahra #72:

I read the link you mentioned in your post with great interest. Thanks for an informative read. The programming talent is there no doubt. What the homegrown industry lacks are quality folks at the upper tiers of management.Instead of trying to get the Safi Qureshis of this world to go back maybe the emphasis should be on trying to entice people at project manager level and below.It becomes very difficult for a mid-level executive in his mid-thirties who has first gone through the vagaries of the green card process, has a mortgage on a nice suburban home,the wife is expecting (again!) and the stock options are finally getting vested to throw it all away for a shot at helping the motherland. The young ones on the other hand are at the cutting edge,are hungry for those elusive riches,are sick of the handcuffs placed on them by the INS and have imbibed enough of the culture of the west to make a difference back home.What do you think?

later

-sac

VSN

I had intended to continue with my critique on Sac`s article, but you said something that provoked me to write a few points.

``If pakis want to be buddies with Indians in US where it suits them and enmies in south asis where it does not - sorry it does not work that way.``

* * *If one reads the above point on its face value, then it has some spark(shurlee) in it. But I feel you are overlooking few aspects, therefore I am tempted to address them below:

*The Pakistanis - who are your colleagues, neighbors or acquaintances in West, are not hiding in the trenches of Kargil or Siachen; ready to attack. [Hey, we do not believe in reincarnation. Being in two different places at one time is also not an acceptable notion.]

*Enemies is a strong word. It was not used appropriately in the current context.[My View]

``Every action has a consequence and you have to take responsibility for your actions (or your governments actions). I am yet to see a paki who is critical of his religion or government.``

* * *I’d very regretfully, like to inform you, that you may have to day dream for a very long time to have your above desires fulfilled - on religion, in particular! Either you meant something else or you are simply out of your mind. I feel you are referring to the Jehadis and are getting carried away by your emotional trauma – my prognosis.

On another note, if you do not want to contribute towards any cause, then don`t do it - it is your prerogative! You cannot agree with everyone and you should not - provided you have a personality!
I hear a whining kid!

Laikin, I am a little curious to know the following:

- How do you know that the physicians are sponsoring any `madrassas`?

- Do you know the meaning of a `madrassa`?

- Are you under the misconception that if you shove the resumes` in a dustbin, you will deprive the candidate from achieving his/her dreams or desired goals ?

Allow me to enlighten you, for I see something very wrong here:

a) Halt!
[Please stop here, if you are full of yourself]

b) Relax!
[Please continue, if you aren’t]

Being Muslims, we believe in two very unique concepts: Qismet and Hikmut!

As you tried to sound like a demigod [unfortunately, unaware of the above concepts], it is incumbant upon me to illuminate thy mind on the above:

* *Qismet * *
If I am due a substantial raise or a promotion, no matter what my adversaries do - I will get that.
How ?
You`d be amazed to think and imagine the grandeur of God. That is why humans are humans, and cannot reach the supremacy of God.

* *Hikmut * *:
If I don`t get what I expected to achieve or receive - Has my world become bleak and devoid of any hope?

As a believer[cool]: I would pursue the other options/alternatives. Keeping in mind, what I was running after wasn’t for me and there is something better out there – for me. I hope you must have read: ``Man proposes, God disposes!``

With that said, I’d suggest you should go ahead with your Mahaa’n Vichaa’r & shove any candidates along with their resumes’ [Hikmut], and then they’ll go somewhere else where they’d have better opportunities as well better environment [Their Qismet].

Please feel free to question any confusing points in my above enlightening little sermon.

Kind Regards

* * * * * * * * * * * *
`Ah, but a man`s reach should exceed his grasp,
Or, what`s a heaven for?
(Browning)
* * * * * * * * * * * *

Re: the happy one (various posts)

“Regarding your lament that Indians are not admonishing this vsn character, see my posts #88, 89.”

I did. See my post 118.

“Anyway... the gist of what is pissing me off lately (and my ire was directed more at fairdinkum than you)”

As Umairr pointed out, key words in my post were also “Indians on this site”. You don’t have to make a lot of effort to see that most Indians (shankar, Amit excepted – sadhna and few others to some extent only) are shy of self-criticism “on this site.”

I like umairr’s view that this is probably because they (Indians) see this as a Pakistani site and therefore they go into a defensive mode as soon as they see anything even remotely critical of India or Indians. However, they see absolutely no problem in criticising Islam/Muslim. Did you know that 1/3 of world population follows Islam? – Not just Pakistanis or Arabs?

And while people like vsn or hamsab or Ramesh or Jay or RSaxana see no problems in their disgusting behaviour, and some others approve it with a wink and nod, the same people get highly agitated when same rubbish is hurled back at them. I performed an experiment by writing a provocative post (essentially using the same tactics as some Indians quite often use on this site) on another board to see how one particular person (hamsab) would react if I gave him the same garbage he was regurgitating to put Muslims down. However, I did leave clear signs for people who have some understanding of Islam that I was not serious in my comments. The responses are quite interesting.

Umairr #128, ``In any case, no website or discussion is worth getting an increase in one`s blood pressure. :) So, you need to cool down :)``

Would Chowk be so interesting if we all cooled down? It would turn out to be a cold literary internet magazine lacking human emotional flavor.

RanaRansher: #133: ``For example, the author suggests reaping the benefits of IT by using India hatred as the enabler. ....

``So he uses stats to prove his point and you join in.``

You are being quite ridiculous. I never joined in with the author. I actually opposed the author`s point of view. I stated the following in reply 36:

``So, while I agree with the article on an abstract level, i.e. Pakistan needs to progress in IT, I do not agree with the reasons you have given to justify the progress. Pakistan should try to progress in IT regardless of what India is doing. Apart from self-defence, there is no need for Pakistan to relate everything to India. And the only situation under which India`s IT success could be a military threat to Pakistan is if India starts pumping its IT money into its military. I think it would be quite useless of India to do so.``

Regarding the low ratio of Indian programmers/entreprenuers to IT managers; this is a fact. Please read a recent Fortune magazine which had a big write-up on Indians in Silicon Valley. I didn`t give any reasons. I just described a fact, and stated the following in reply #128:

``For the record, I am not quite sure why Indians are so under-represented in US IT management in ratio, to the total numbers of Indians in the US IT industry. There are many points of view regarding this, and I have yet to decide which is the most accurate.``

If you do not consider the above a fact, please contact Fortune Magazine, and Kanwal Rekhi (on whom the article was based). Don`t attempt to take it out on me.

Any statement based on research and factual statement should be respected and discussed. You are trying to disregard the statement, and attempting to attack the person making the statement. Regardless of anything you say about the person making the statement; a fact remains a fact. Shooting the messenger will not discredit the message.

In brief, do not attempt to put words in my mouth. Concentrate on what is being said, and not who is saying it.

I just have two much time on my hands today :) Anyone whose resume gets thrown into the dustbin (hindu, muslim, sikh, essai; i dont care) by vsn, send it over to me. In the current Silicon Valley job market, it is the employee who is the boss. Getting hold of a good resume is like hitting the jackpot. I am surprised there are people who are throwing them in the dustbin.

Zahra #135,

Good response! (no sugarcoating here) I`m sure VSN will squirm in his chair when he reads it.

sincerely

scout

vsn #123:

[``I thought pakistanis dont care much for the law. Oh sorry that is in pakistan.``]

well, not really it seems.i just read about the gang of pak army band that gave the slip in new york four days ago, and still remain at large... hmmmmm hillarious these guys... what next ? fireworks in long island soon and statements of `purely indegenous development` from islamabad ?

Ummair

“

I do not agree with this. The ratio of Indian managers to Indian programmers/entrepreneurs in the US IT industry is very very low. While Indians have had a lot of success as IT entreprenuers, they are highly under-represented (or have highly under-performed; take your pick) in management (one only needs to read your reply to find out why). The ratio of Indian programmers to Indian managers is extremely low. (quite a bit lower than than the ratio of Pakistani programmers to Pakistani managers). This has been recognized by many IT magazines like Fortune, etc. “

This is a crude attempt to put a spin that Indians don`t make very good managers. Whereas, the ratio of Pakistani managers is higher compared to Pakistani developers.

The fact is that Indians have been coming here on H1`s in more numbers every succeeding, which means that there are progressively more newcomers to the US market than the established people. It should be noted that a person with experience in India doesn’t straight away become a manager, as some US experience is required for that. So, the proportions theory suggested by Ummair has nothing to do with native Indian managerial talent.

A case in point, I met someone yesterday, age 37, 12 years in IT, last Job in Delhi as Project manager for a team of 40. Came here last December started as a programmer now leads a team of 2, including himself.

Ummair suggests that Pakistan produces more managers than programmers; This is probably something Pakistan should remedy - ASAP.

-Vicky

Re vsn

What vsn says he does with resumes is totally unprofessional and unethical. It doesnot matter how much money his employer or the US makes off him, he is betraying their trust by passing off his own prejudices as company`s policy. I condemn him for this. His generalizations about who can work with whom are also despicable, its seems so far from the general experience about NR Indians and Pakistanis that the rest of his stands seem spurious,too.

But the self-critical Pakistani responses to both Ramesh and vsn are also extremely revealing. Boycotting Pakistani goods is unfair, supporting `armed jihad` against India is fair? Pakistani basmati rice makes up Indian flesh-and-blood we are reminded, but many thousand years of common history donot contribute a milligram of anything Indian (forget about humanities, lets stick to biology) to Pakistani flesh-and-blood?

And welcome to the real world where public opinion cannot be ignored.

Sadhana
PS: The gutters of chowk stink.

PS: The gutters of chowk stink.

The gutters has been stinking for quite some time now.. I am surprised you didn`t get the stink before.

I guess Indians don`t take criticism too well.. So from here on, I will stick to criticising Pakistan and Pakistanis.

Suppose that vsn, Jay, RSaxena and some others are representative of a small minority of Indians; let us say about 10% of the population, then the number of bigots in India approxamately equals the total population of Pakistan. If only 5% of those 10% are in a position of authority the number exceeds the total number of bureaucracy in Pakistan.

That pretty much explains why the Sword of Democlese is always hanging on top of our heads-Pakistan, Indian Muslims, Kashmiris, Sri Lakans, Bangladeshis and the world peace.

This article has nothing to do with IT. It could have been the cement or the batata-wada business. When Indians do well, it does not mean Pakistan(is) will be at the losing end.

My two-cents :

Stick to your strengths - whether it be selling sugar or stitching footballs or whatever. Soon you will make a name for yourselves and once your self esteem as a nation grows, these anti-India feelings can be exorcised.

If you do want to compare yourselves to others, select someone of your own size. For eg, with respect to Burma or Sri Lanka, you guys are doing really well.

In the future, I hope to see a strong India acting as a protector/powerhouse for South Asia, which will mean all types of benefits - economic, political, military etc. for all our neighbours.