The Ongoing IT Revolution and Security Implications for Pakistan

Re: Rsaxena #182,

I am as much a `leftist` and an `ACLU member` as you are a member of the religious right or Jerry Falwell`s personal choir boy. This particular tactic employed frequently by your kind never fails to crack me up. Keep the entertainment coming.

You are obviously correct in pointing out that killing people is a far cry from basic discrimination, but any half-wit (inebriated or not) would understand that I was talking about attitudes. Let me give you a basic little lesson:

First a certain group of people (usually in the majority) convinces itself that they are morally, ideologically, religiously & racially superior than the other (usually in the minority).

Second this feeling begins manifesting itself in systemic economic & social marginalization of the minority.

Third (very rarely) it results in ethnic cleansing/ genocide.

What is germane to this discussion is that one can not deny that this entire process starts with the basic feeling of superiority over another sect. And throughout this process there is a pervasive sense of moral righteousness exhibited by the discriminating group.

You sir, completely missed my point. Which was to point out to VSN that IQ or business acumen does not guarantee the ability to look at the world with tolerance.

But this whole tolerance business is probably not important to you, what with it being such a `leftist` concept.

Re: Urstruly # 177

I really did not get your point. You asked me not to sugar-coat things. Just what are you referring to? I compared (I stress the word COMPARE before another gremlin jumps at my throat) VSN`s attitude to that of a Nazi, and you are accusing me of `sugar-coating`?? Some kind of a joke?

And you ask me not to flatter myself? Just how did I flatter myself? By implying that there are people in India who do not hate by compulsion? And you proudly point to your own post 145 as some kind of erudite gem. Let me tell you that I have seen few statements as daft as your post #145!

Re: Raxena & Urstruly,

Both of you items are convinced that you are ideologically, morally, religiously & racially superior than the other. As long as we have people like you, the conflict our people share will never be resolved. It is as simple as that!

I have been coming to this site for 2 years. Every 3-4 months I need to get into skirmishes to let off some steam... then I can go back to discussing non-contentious stuff. Mind you I don`t get into India/ Pakistan skirmishes but rather into hatred/ tolerance skirmishes. So thanks all you hatemongers, see ya later!

the happy one #195

-You sir, completely missed my point. Which was to point out to VSN that IQ or business acumen does not guarantee the ability to look at the world with tolerance.

dear happy one sir, in my limited interaction on this board, to me it is you that

comes across to be intolerant - makes me wonder if you are really happy one.

Before jumping on anything that utters the word `discriminate` please use your

power of discrimination. Because unlike some low level life forms we know right

from wrong and are able to discriminate based on judgement. Dont jump to

conclusions that because we can exercise our judgement and stay away from

things that are not good for us, we somehow turn into hitlers. According to

your limited reasoning Gandhi would look like a hitler as he advocated

systematic discrimination by not cooperating with the British. All I was

saying was I chose to employ my discriminatory powers to not to cooperate with

paki americans in hopes that they can influence their govt to pursue a

friendlier policy with India. And they can expect that attitude. Indians

were uncomfortable in dealing with even Sikhs in US in 80s when they were asking

for khalistan. Now we are so close to them with no trace of the bad

feeling. My hope is we can be close with pakis too someday, but to make that

happen you have to make some hard choices.

tahmad321 #192
Thanks. Maybe the key to solving these problems is to begin by accepting each other as equal human beings.

sac #191

Cooperation with those you hate, tauba, tauba :-)?

btw, I donot support either vsn or Ramesh`s actions about boycotts because I think nursing such a mindset will make any solution more difficult. However, the fact remains that all are free to act and decide (under law), either to pick up a gun or to put down a packet of Basmati rice.

Sadhana

vsn :

Man, you are just wasting your time here. why give a damn if mushy buys guns for the muj thugs with the money we pay, to run amok ripping open the rib cages of our own people ? just get the hang that feeling of being flattered as an impartial good indian from the paki intellectuals here and you`d realize why the goody-goody indians vie with each other to rain condemnation on you. please GO away. change that damn name from vsn to some xyz, come back and start typing `I unreservedly condemn the morons vsn and ramesh...`

oh, btw, shredding resumes isn`t an offence, only as long as you do it silently ;)

To all you nutcases from both sides of the line of control.

There is this hindi film song that a father is singing to his Son, It goes something like this.

``Tu Hindu banega na musalman banega,

Insaan ki aulad hai Insaan banega``

Aama yaar leave all this religious girbish somewhere else, talk insaaniyat, talk love.

And if you wanna really do something for your country, then try and improve the lot of poor back home, you would all be doing a great service to humanity as well as your respective nations. Why waste time and energy on a place like chowk, where each for you fools definitly help increase the already existing high levels of hate.

Who benifits from all this. Many times I wonder, how can educated people talk such loose talk. Totally irresponsible behaviour.

All I can do is appeal to all my fellow Indians,

Boss log why waste time and energy. All I can appeal is please do not retaliate in this way. Why should we stoop to such low levels, it doesn`t show us as a cultured civilization.

What we need to do is make India prosperous, that will remove India`s problem, not discussing all these stupid issues in chowk.

Jai Hind.

vsn,

There is nothing wrong in boycotting a corporation or country because you feel their policies are abhorrant to you. That freedom of choice is allowed in the US. What Ramesh is doing ( boycotting Pakistani products & businesses ---whether we agree with his reasoning or not) is perfectly acceptable & definitely not illegal.

However, when you throw a resume of an individual in the garbage just because he/she is a Pakistani is illegal. Its illegal (& immoral) because you automatically assume that he/she is a subversive or a supporter of terrorism just because he/she belongs to a certain nationality. That person is applying for a job as an individual,not as a representative of Pakistan. That kind of prejudice is disallowed in the US.

I`m not a lawyer. If there are any lawyers in the audience, please clarify this point. If a member of the KKK applied for a job in my business & I did`nt hire him because of his affiliation, am I liable? In my lay opinion, the I have to PROVE he is a KKK member & his actions will be detrimental to my business. In other words, the burden of proof is on me.

vsn #192 Like you, I (a Pakistani) too have in past years hired many individuals, many of them Indians. One of them actually told me when he was leaving for another job that coming straight from India he had not expected to be treated so well by a Pakistani boss. My brother (who heads a successful independant operation in the US) keeps a number of Indian IT types busy in the US and in India writing programs.

Thank God we shall never fall to your petty level. And thank God there is enough work to go around for those willing to apply themselves that no one needs to work for a creep like you.

The Happy One # 195

Ok- I am convinced that you belong to the category of those 90%. It kind of restored my faith in the 90% that, I believe, always exists.

I think it is great dishonesty if we do not appreciate vsn for his posts. His posts helped exposed some very ugly faces who were hiding behind the masks of intellectualism and liberalism-playing a masquerade with us for quite a while. Some of them have chosen to go underground for a while, while some others are pleading their case on the bases of temporary (lapse) insanity. It won`t be long that they will be back among us wearing new masks.

Like I said it will be great dishonesty if we do not appreciate the honesty and integrity shown by people like vsn, Rsexana, Jay, (and me, if you insist) et. al. At least they don`t hide their feelings behind intellectualism and blame their gaffes on ``temporary lapses``. One of our great poets has paid his tribute to such people in these words:

``Wafadari B`shart-e ustawari, asl-e ImaN hay
maray b`ut khanay main to K`abba mai n gaaro Brahmin ko``

(Any translation of this couplet by me will ruin its true flavor. Temporal! Would you like to help out here)

Urstruly #202

It appears we have issues, thats nothing new. You appear angered at my view on vsn/Ramesh`s posts if I am not mistaken.

I clearly stated where I stand on vsn in my post #143. I was pointing out the reality of dynamics this side of the border which is as compelling as the dynamics on the other side. Stephen Cohen once said in a discussion(transcript available on the Brookings Institute site) that Kargil was the first TV war for Indians and has had an corresponding impact on public opinion.

Now just pointing out this fact doesnot mean I support such public opinion, in fact I rue it whenever I see evidence of it. I myself was not in India during that period, so I didnot see the coverage.

Finally, this is not a new argument from my side and I havenot been wearing any mask. I donot consider myself liberal/intellectual, I prefer to think optimistic realist, there seems no other way to go. If public support in Pakistan for jihad against India is one hard reality, the hardening of Indian public opinion is another reality. In my opinion, moral outrage expressed about only part of it just doesnot make any sense either for Indians or for Pakistanis, since both realities have to be tackled.

Sadhana

PS: My `temporary lapse` reference was wrt tahmad321 and use of sac`s board for which I apologise to chowk readers. However, if I have made any personally insulting remark to you, in particular, I`m sorry too. I think we ought to agree to disagree on the issues, there is no disrespect in that, surely.

RE: Sadna # 203

Your head spinning post just reminded me of the ``Cretan liar paradox``. Allow me to elaborate it by an example; a man comes up to you on the street and says, ``Whatever I tell you is a lie.`` Is he telling the truth?

Anyway, lets take your post at the face value and forget about our past interactions. No, there was nothing personal and therefore there is no need to apologize- I never ever take these things personally and never ask or expect someone to apologize (except fairdinkum).

Thanks

PS. BTW I am not calling you a liar. The mention of the Cretan Liar Paradox was to elaborate a point I hope you will understand.

Re: Urstruly #202

Thank you sir for recognizing honesty and straight-talk, good or bad. I appreciate hamidm`s rantings more than the Umairr`s of the world who try to hide behind veils. As for happy-one, I`d just leave him alone. How do you converse with someone who`s having difficulty differentiating between chucking resumes and gas chambers....

As for burden of proof, many companies throw out resumes if they are not from Ivy League schools or don`t have certain minimum GPAs...they have not and will never need to prove anything to anyone. As for the hoohaa about getting vsn in legal trouble, good luck!! Law firms, Wall St, consulting firms, etc. have been getting away with rejecting black candidates for years and no one`s been able to do anything about it. Laissez faire when it comes to business in America....

OK I am wasting too much time here. People are sidelining the

Issue. I am not racist, petty minded. That is beside the point too.

Everyone agrees that Indians by and large are law-abiding people

when they are outside India. And they are successful and increasingly

becoming influential and powerful as a group. Whether you like it

or not Pakistan’s policies will ferment some kind of resentment

towards Pakistani people in Indians all over the world. They might

chose not to cooperate with you (legally of course, don’t jump on me!).

Why are Pakistanis blind to that? Aren’t you good businessmen? Don’t

you want good opportunities for you and for your kids? Or do you

have the sucidal, self-destructive jihadist mentality too? If I were

the paki physician association I would be lobbying to get Pakistan

change its Kashmir policy, appease India and cooperate with it

in all fields and reap the benefits by touting my Indian ancestry.

You belong to the Indus region as much as we do and you have claim

to the fame of belonging to the same ancient civilization. If I

am a good marketer I would show how I am so similar to the mainstream

Indian - how we come from the same vedic land and develop the ancient

temples and monuments in Pakistan into tourist attractions. It is not

always a question of choosing this ideology or that ideology. We are increasingly

becoming multi-cultural and we chose whatever works for our people.

If today India is all the rage, you tout your Indian qualities. And if

tomorrow Arab culture is popular you tout your affinity towards them.

You don’t have to necessarily put down one for the other. You can embrace

all of them and benefit from all. You can get oil from middle east and

IT from India:) Anyway you get the point - just celebrate the multi

cultural being you are and reap the benefits.

Now my question is since I don’t see the above behavior in Pakistanis in US,

which in my opinion is rational, , is it because they believe Indian

resentment is no big loss for them? I expect to see the same rational behavior

from educated people in Pakistan too. My belief is over time the Indian resentment would marginalize Pakistanis all over the world if they don’t do something

about it just as their country is marginalized by antagonizing India.

Lot of people may think that it won’t affect them - they are sitting far from

the action and may even derive a vicarious pleasure in fermenting more trouble.

Well in this connected world what goes around comes back and you reap

what you sow.

Now please don’t talk nonsense about discrimination, racism, petty mindedness, etc.

Talk about the following points:

1) Will there be resentment?

2) If there is, Will it affect Pakistanis significantly?

3) If it affects the pakis, is it a bearable cost compared to their

Long-term objectives (whatever they are)

4) Even if there is no significant loss due to resentment, are you

foregoing significant benefits because of lack of Indian goodwill?

popcorn....#199...

````Tu Hindu banega na musalman banega,

Insaan ki aulad hai Insaan banega````

very well said. but ts such a pity the not many people bother to remember this.

``And if you wanna really do something for your country, then try and improve the lot of poor back home, you would all be doing a great service to humanity as well as your respective nations. Why waste time and energy on a place like chowk, where each for you fools definitly help increase the already existing high levels of hate.``

very well said again. but popcorn,.....u see...most of the boss log`s (including me too, i must admit) here, whether indians or pakistanis are so busy trying to gain the upperhand in an arguement, that many of them forget that they are from nations whose majority of the population doesn`t get even one time meal. but u see our enlightened people here feel that arguing about kashmir and religion is much more important than the millions of hungry and naked people back home.

forget this....most of the people here are not even in their countries, and i`m sure not many of them have a willingness to go back home. if they do, and i sincerely hope they do, then possibly they will see the true state of their homelands and realise crap they were arguing about is not the real issue.

sri tahmed #201

-Thank God we shall never fall to your petty level. And thank God there is enough work to go around for those willing to apply themselves that no one needs to work for a creep like you.

This is not a pissing contest between you and me about whois a better creep.

The questions I asked are beyond you and me and are about the surival of

pakistanis and pakistan. I am trying to analyse the behavior of the groups

at macro level and their implications.



-My brother (who heads a successful independant operation in the US) keeps a number of Indian IT types busy in the US and in India writing programs.

Incase you are under any delusion, the indians at your brothers company are

doing him a big favor. In future they may not be willing to work for him at any cost. Did you consider the implications? If indians dont work for him in IT, dont

you think he will be in trouble? I have to ship lot of work offshore to India

as I cant get any people here. And if I have to hire indian programmers, they

ask me my 5 year plan for the company and I have to sell myself to them before

they even consider.

And keep your `holier than thou attitude` personal like you keep your religion.

Look at these Paki intellectuals trying to be holier than thou with regards to vsn.

They (Pakistanis) have a country based on religious descrimination. TNT Separate Nation for Muslims. I mean on one hand it is okay to ``exchange populations`` for Islamically righteous reasons (read throw minorities in the dustbin) while it is wrong for vsn to throw a resume in the dustbin.

I bet they hire Muslims if they can. It is their nature.

Muslim is a brother and everything else is kafir. Use & abuse kafir when convenient (IT talent).

Afterall, a lot of them are raging capitalists like us (and vsn in this context).

same old story no sequel.

Mr . SAC what about the US & Israel`s prowess in IT ? What does that brood for THE MUSLIMS ?

sleep well.........