The Ongoing IT Revolution and Security Implications for Pakistan

http://www.cnn.com/ASIANOW/asiaweek/technology/2000/0908/tech.net.html

``India is still not an open and competitive market,`` says Masood Tariq, Nortel Network`s Asia-Pacific president. Even if the bureaucracy were to disappear tomorrow, domestic economics make infrastructure projects a gamble, Tariq says. ``There is a dire need for basic telephony,`` he says. Fewer than three Indians in 100 have telephone service, compared to the world average of 15 per 100. The government estimates that it needs $60 billion in investments to extend service to six out of 100 citizens, yet ``there aren`t enough people who can afford even basic POTS [plain old telephone service]`` to make big construction projects feasible, Tariq says.

All right, it appears that you have to whip up paranoia of anything Indian to get Pakistanis going. Because Pakistan != India.

Kargil most definitely ruined Indians` perception of Pakistan and Pakistanis. There`s no way to get around it.

In this context, it makes immense sense that an employer would not wish to introduce discord in an office by hiring a Pakistani amongst a large number of Indians.

What seems to be the problem?

First of all, I agree with Feroz appeal thta we should refrain from name calling. Personal attacks never help in convincing others of your perspective. The discusssions should be made with an unemotional, and receptive mindset.

Secondly it is true that India before Kargil is not the same as India after it. With the body of soldiers killed in Kargil returning to their native place almost everywhere in India there was an unprecedented nationalistic fervour. Right from the school kids to the professionals I saw everyone busy in contributing towards the war victims with unmitigated zeal. The spirit of unity and responsibility that dawned on people was amazing. All the government officials decided to give one day of their salary to the victims voluntarily. This wave of patriotism seemed to cross the national borders and NRIs all over the world donated generously towards Indian cause.

The consummation of ten years of terrorism into Kargil war turned the indifference of many Indian youth into hatred towards Pakistan. This youth was the generation which spearheaded the IT revolution in India. A natural consequence was that during Kargil war and after many Indian people started boycotting anything Pakistani. If there was a schism between both the countries prior to Kargil there is a vast chasm now. I do not know whether any perceptible change in the attitude of Pakistanis occured after Kargil but the Indian mass opinion definitely has hardened.

In any foreign land, take US for example it is painful to see that the people who are similarwith respect to language, mass culture or appearence bear so deep rooted hatred against the other. But this is a reality and we have to live with it. Unless there is a big shift in the policy of Pakistani military rulers,I dont see any hope of reconcillation in the near future. Indian politicians have developed a distrust towards Pakistan in general, and it is futile to expect them to take any new initiative towards conflict resolution.

Cheers

Urstruly #204

Actually, no, I didnot understand your example. Its fine with me either way if you believe or disbelieve me personally or find me consistent or inconsistent, thats your own judgement, please do use it.

btw, here is the reference I mentioned, you may be interested in looking it up,
http://www.brook.edu/comm/transcripts/20000313.htm
Search on word `Kargil`.

Sadhana

vsn #209 Your logic is fascinating: when the IT guy is Pakistani, it is a buyers market and the Indian recruiter is in the driver`s seat; when the IT guy is Indian, it is a sellers market and the Indian is again in the driver`s seat.

Against such logic, I accept defeat.

It is elementary, srimaan tahmed: #215

Employee-Employer relationship is mutually benificial - both make money

off each other. It is a win-win situation.

When we are dealing with paki applicants we are dealing with a

small pool and the loss of access to that pool is nominal to the

employers. (About 2% of H1B professionals in US are from pakistan where

as almost half of them are from india.). So a paki employer would

suffer more from a lack of access to indian programmers than vice versa.

Similarily when we are talking about access to employers for a job applicant,

loss of access to indian owned or managed companies would be more severe.

(Fully 1/4 of all high tech companies in silicon valley are either owned

by or operated by indians or chinese). And most of the interviews would

also involve peer feedback from future team mates. I will leave that

as an excercise for you to figure out who will benifit from peer feedback.

vsn #216
When you are not made to suffer from the effect of being a minority(a immigrant Indian among resident Americans) what exactly justifies your capitalizing on `numbers` when it favors you?

Not only that, you are dishonoring people who came before you and struggled and made your reception easier like Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar, Nobel Prize winner in Physics, who back in the `30s wouldnot get students and classes to teach because of prejudice about his Indian origin. If you are lucky to have a good work environment and fair opportunity, its due to the work ethic of those who came before you.

So if you profess to be worried about karma, you ought to be REALLY WORRIED.

Sadhana

Long-Distance Outsourcing Companies: Look to India -Alex Daniels, Washington Techway

http://www.washtech.com/news/internet/3474-1.html

But running an Indian outpost presents technology executives with a number of hurdles. While it`s true that workers in another time zone complete tasks while Americans slumber, it`s just as true that locals cannot call their Indian counterparts during our business day - they`ll all be asleep.



And cultural differences can be difficult to overcome. For some, the thirst for additional tech workers trumps such challenges. The demand for foreign-born high-tech workers is well documented. This year, for instance, all 65,000 H-1B visas set aside to let skilled foreigners into this country were snatched up by the end of March.



``People are going to go where the workers are, if they`re not here,`` says Tom Stohler, a lobbyist for the American Electronics Association.



Groups such as Stohler`s - along with the Business Software Alliance, the Information Technology Association of America and the U.S.-India Business Council - have not kept tabs on the exact volume of work U.S. companies send to India. But Indian government officials and industry representatives clearly see their country as an emerging IT powerhouse.



India exported software to 95 countries last year, with almost 62 percent of exports heading to North America, according to India`s National Association of Software and Service Companies. The group says software exports, which totaled $4 billion in 1999, have grown by more than 50 percent each year for the past three years.



India`s National Taskforce on Software & IT Development says more than 160 Fortune 500 companies outsource computer tasks to workers in that country. The government-run group is promoting policies such as privatization of the country`s telecommunications services that members say would boost software exports to $50 billion a year by 2008.



Zubair A. Talib, chief technology officer for i411, an 11-employee startup in Chantilly, says communication can be a problem when dealing with workers halfway around the world. Over the past two years, the company has contracted with teams of programmers in India to help develop tools that allow i411 to distribute and filter content on wireless networks. ``There are some cultural differences you have to get used to,`` Talib says. ``Sometimes when things are going badly, there`s a hesitation to communicate that right up front.``



``Any time there`s a gulf between people, there`s a challenge,`` agrees Nirmal Jain, CEO of Tata Infotech, a software developer and systems integrator in India. Jain says it is about 34 percent cheaper to produce software in India, where the majority of the company`s 4,000 employees reside.



Tata Infotech, with expected revenues of $100 million this year, employs about 25 people in its McLean office and for good reason. More than half the company`s revenues come from sales in the states. But Jain says when he e-mails his U.S. employees, communication is difficult because body language isn`t transmitted via the Internet. The key, says Jain, is to spell out every request and document everything so workers in distant locations know what is expected of them.



Amir Hudda, an Arlington entrepreneur who earlier this year sold his company, Entevo, to Houston`s Bindview for $125 million in stock, first started employing Indian workers five years ago. When he set up an Entevo subsidiary there in 1995, he benefited from huge savings on salaries. ``We used to pay someone fresh out of school there $15,000,`` Hudda recalls. In the Washington area, he says, the same position would have demanded four times that salary.



But with the cost savings came major headaches. Hudda says it was important to tailor business procedures to his overseas unit. For instance, he had to cut off the Indian subsidiary, which largely consisted of engineers and programmers, from his U.S. marketing e-mail lists. Messages passed on those lists often included requests from customers that should have been handled by the marketing staff, not code writers a half a world away. ``They might be over enthusiastic about fixing it when it might not really be a problem,`` Hudda says.



What`s more, corporate culture is different in India than it is here, Hudda says. Five years ago, ``the concept of flex time didn`t exist,`` he says. Hudda, who is now developing a new wireless applications company, Withphone, says he tried to recreate the American entrepreneurial atmosphere in India by instituting flex time and granting all employees stock options.

sadhana #217

I am not doing it solely because the numbers favor me. Numbers favor me to discriminate against lot of people you will surely agree. I am doing it

because i want the people sitting in ivory towers to feel the heat and do

something to influence the politics of their country.

Exactly. It is a dishonor, to all the people who worked hard

for equality, to discriminate against innocent people. But dont you

discriminate against dumb people, arrogant people, irresponsible people,

obnoxious people,..etc in one way or the other? If you dont how will

they ever learn to be decent people? That is just an example. I am

not blaming anyone of the above qualities.

Discrimination (vichakshana) is also a byproduct of wisdom.

Be wise who do you do business with. I just wish India is left alone so

that it can improve the quality of life for the 500 million people living

below poverty line. It is a humongous task and on top of it we are

adding population equal to Australia`s every year. Wont you feel happy

if all of them have decent living? Every human should feel sorry for them and

should help in whatever way they can. I dont understand what kind of people

go to war with countries already saddled with such burden of humanity on such scarce resources. I dont like the polocies of such countries and I am trying

my bit to influence them through my peaceful means.

VSN,

So by denying Pakistanis work, you`re actually trying to do our country a favour. Gosh, I`ll bet all those poor Pakis start phoning home saying that `An Indian just rejected us.. we gotta appease India somehow!`. Or do you not mention that bit to them (`Actually, lads, I won`t even read your resume, you being Paki `n` all, `til Pakistan appeases India, so get busy on those phone lines!`) No doubt those people whom Rsaxena (was it him?) mentioned who reject people on grounds of being black are also doind it for their own good.. to give them a taste of adversity and to encourage them to try harder! We thank you for your contribution towards Peace on Earth.

vsn#

You may be quadrillionaire.

But your pathetic thoughts, is a shame for whole humanity.

First of all, if you think you are ``Razzaq`` or giver of food because of your position, you are wrong.

Second, nobody can stop a person from achieving. If you think you are stopping one avenue, God opens 100 avenues.

Third, you are in America, and you think that you have fooled Americans (for they provided opportunity for you), but you cannot be fooled (because you only take care of your countrymen).

I can say, only one thing. My employer is a Pakistani, and he also belongs to your species.

So it is not Indian to be narrowminded, or is it?

Pankaj #213: ``Secondly it is true that India before Kargil is not the same as India after it. With the body of soldiers killed in Kargil returning to their native place almost everywhere in India there was an unprecedented nationalistic fervour.``

Anamika #212 ``In this context, it makes immense sense that an employer would not wish to introduce discord in an office by hiring a Pakistani amongst a large number of Indians.

What seems to be the problem?``

# All other replies from Indians who are looking at only one side of the picture:

If any of you ever get a chance to come to Pakistan, I would like to introduce you to a friend of mine who is a doctor in the Pakistan army. He was in charge of dealing with the soldiers injured in the Siachen conflict. The stories he told me about the conditions of the soldiers he had to operate on, and the ones who died, were unbelievable. One officer in his early twenties had to have his leg chopped off. His fiancé left him because she did not want to marry a one-legged man. For every sad Indian Kargil story, there is a sad Pakistani Siachen story.

Yet most, if not all Indians, only seem concerned about the former, and not the later. Why?

India invaded Siachen, against all rules and regulations of the Simla Agreement (much like Pakistan did in Kargil) in 1984. Pakistan had to send its forces up there to stop the Indian invasion. It took Pakistani soldiers a while to learn and adjust to the hazards of fighting such high-altitude warfare. The result was many deaths and injuries due to frostbite (not to mention Indian firing).

For 16 years there has been, and there still is, a battle going on there in which India is the aggressor. Pakistan has been offering India a bilateral withdrawal for a decade now; but India refuses. India`s basic aim is to attempt to bleed the Pakistani economy through the Siachen conflict, even though it is costing India much more to fight up there than it costs Pakistan. So India is basically trying to bleed Pakistan at the cost of the poor people of India.

India is still attacking Pakistan in Siachen. However, Pakistan backed out of Kargil after only a few months. Kargil would not have been required had India not occupied Siachen. Read Brian Cloughley`s, ``History of the Pakistan Army`` to get more details. In any case, both were wrong.

The arrogant attitude of completely disregarding any conflicts in which one`s own country is the aggressor is quite biased, to say the least. If one follows the line of thinking that Indians here seem to be encouraging, i.e. Indians and Pakistanis should boycott each other after or during a conflict, then would you agree that Pakistanis should have boycotted Indians 16 years ago? Where exactly do you think all this boycotting would lead to? In my opinion, it is a pointless exercise.

Pakistan is offering talks to India now, even though India is attacking Pakistanis forces in Siachen. If what you say is true regarding Indians and their current post-Kargil attitudes towards Pakistan, then I am afraid Indians are practicing a great deal of hypocrisy, i.e. they support the aggressions of their own military, but oppose the aggressions of other militaries. Any honorable and principled person would either support both or oppose both.

Regarding the attitudes of the NRIs: you are correct in stating that many NRIs and NRI organizations in the USA are trying their best to harm Pakistan. This includes/included trying to stop Clinton from going to Pakistan, and trying to get Pakistan declared a terrorist state. The few US Congressmen supported by NRIs also have this on top of their agendas. All of this is to harm Pakistan; not to help India. Unfortunately NRIs, who support such points of views, have so far not seen much success. Hypocrisy rarely succeeds.

The Pakistani organizations in the US have done relatively well to defend Pakistan against such Indian organizations (without attacking India, mind you). I am quite sure there will never be enough NRIs in the US to harm Pakistanis. The US society does not work that way. It is impossible for one community to put another out of business; regardless of how hard the former tries. In comparison to the whole US economy, the Indian community`s share is, and will always remain, a minute fraction. Larger than the Pakistani community`s share; but minute, all the same. Even if all the Indians in the US joined together and decided not to hire a single Pakistani, the Pakistanis would still have the remaining 99.9% of the US economy open to them. So boycotting Pakistanis is a useless counter-productive excercise. It is more an attempt to satisfy one`s own hatred, than anything else.

Perhaps Pakistanis have become cynical and jaded, and thus rarely believe the official media in Pakistan. Indians on the other hand seem to believe Zee TV and DoorDarshan completely. Just because the Indian official media would like you to think that Pakistanis are aggressors, and Indians are angels, doesn`t mean that is an accurate description of the whole situation. If you are so enthusiastic about the Indians that were killed by Pakistanis in Kargil (in a couple of months combat), then you should also show some concern for the Pakistan soldiers` widows and families who have been, and still are, victims of the on-going aggression of the Indian military in Siachen.

In my opinion, India was wrong to attack Pakistan in Siachen, and Pakistan was wrong in attacking India at Kargil. I have yet to see an Indian who has the courage to make a similar statement? If an Indian hates Pakistanis, he/she should have the courage to come out and state it outright. It is condescending to attempt to justify the hate by one-sided views of Indo/Pak conflicts.

Despite the fact that Indians are attacking and killing Pakistani soldiers in Siachen right now (many Pakistanis soldiers die or are disfigured due to frostbite, as well), and despite the fact that one of my very close friends was shot down and killed in the recent unchivilrous and cowardly attack by an Indian fighter aircraft on an unarmed Pakistani Naval reconnaissance plane inside Pakistani borders, and despite the fact that I have had many more friends and family members killed by Indian soldiers (or have died in training to defend Pakistan against Indian soldiers) than vice-versa, I still do not hate Indians. I still go to Indian grocery stores, hire Indians, etc. Many of the Indians working for me and my employer are dependent on me to ensure that their US residency papers get processed accurately and correctly. One wrong statement or signature on my part could ruin their future, and I don`t take that responsibility lightly. The thought of making them a victim of my own frustrations, or by-product victims of Indo/Pak conflicts has never crossed my mind. I find it quite disgusting that it crosses the minds of many of the Indians who visit this site. And I find their condescending one-sided justifications based on Kargil even more disgusting.

Why is there a big difference between Pakistani thinking (mine and many others) and the thinking of the many Indians towards whom this reply is directed? Try to figure that out.

Pankaj#213

I don`t buy your logic.

Even if it were not Kargil, there would be discrimination. I know it firsthand.

It is related to herd mentality, for other groups not to enter the market in competition.

Whites don`t rule the world for nothing. They go for what is beneficial. They even discriminate against their own people (whites from other countries) in favor of Asians, according to their policy of cultural diversity if you know their immigration laws.

So justifying the wrong attitude, in any name, is not a justification.

To all those who were criticizing vsn:

Did the world (including India) not boycott South Africa while it was a practitioner of apartheid? And restored normal relaations once apartheid ended?

What`s wrong with Indians boycotting Pakistanis so long as Pakistan foments militancy in India? Would you expect Indians to be lovey-dovey while their people are being killed and property destroyed?

In fact I would call upon all right thinking people of the world to boycott Pakistan and Pakistanis till their govt mends its ways.

Umaair,

you make some very relevant points. However, i would like to give some clarifications.

The essential differences between Siachen and Kargil are

1) The boundary/LOC ( call what u want ) was defined in case of Kargil but not in case of Siachen.

The last point on LOC is NJ 4982 . Subsequent to this the LOC is not defined. Further to this the line was to run in a northerly direction. Pakistan was trying to redine the definition of Northerly by sending mountaineering expeditionso as to lay claim on more terriroty. The Indian attempt in siachen was to abort this attempt. So the capture of some peaks/passes was planned by both the armies. However, the Indian army reached first and so commands the area, though at a high cost. The transgression in Kargil was across a line which was agreed as per a signed document. This is why Indians potray Kargil as a stab in the back.

2) In Siachen , India never said that some ` holy warriors` had captured the peaks/passes. Quite unlike the Pakis who claimed that `Mujahids` had captured the peaks in Kargil. To boot we got illustrious/legendary Paki generals on tape. That is besides the point that not one country in the world believed the Paki version. I am not sure what the Pakistanis believe. Would be keen to know from you. So again a paki lie , which is why Indians see it as a stab in the back.

3) Last but not the least Kargil came after Lahore yatra. This was in the opinion of Indians , the medival Pakistani mentality. The timing of Kargil and role of Paki army was why Indians see it as a stab in the back

I would really appreciate a riposte from you on the points mentioned above. However, it is true that ordinary/poor men are paying for the follies of their respective governments. The so called ` mujahids ` from pakistan are really misguided POOR men, fighting aginst Indian army where the soldiers are basically POOR farmers, and between these two it is the POOR people of Kashmir who are getting squeezed.

The children of the elite are in USA/ Europe fighting their jehads/Yudh on the net in airconditioned comfort holding a Carlsberg!!!!

And if you are NOT bringing your biases in recruiting people , I salute you.

All this is nothing but a feeble attempt to gain parity between india and pakistan in IT as in other fields.

what crap !!

we export 3.5 billion$ worth of s/w and the pakistani exports are no more than 30 million$.

yep. we do a lot of ``low end`` stuff. data entry, medical/legal transcription, customer support. we need the money and the jobs.

if they don`t want to open ``sweat-shops`` its their problem. with forex reserves of 1 billion$, that`s a great idea infact.

ever heard of a tech start-up from pakistan ( with all it`s `quality` contribution towards IT and science in general).

hello where are you ? (the 6 patents chap)

till date they have produced 5000 phds ( mostly islamic studies). patents. myfoot.

we have companies working in the field of optical networking, next gen. networking, bluetooth, WAP etc. tejas, alopa, xybridge, SAS to name a few.

we have got more important things to do than ``indopak co-operation`` in IT.

lets just stick to kashmir and hindu/muslim stuff

and leave sane things like IT/pharma aside.

regards

nchiket

BTW IITs are no longer undergraduate institutes. the focus now is on more research activities. hopefully we`ll be able to contribute more.