The Ongoing IT Revolution and Security Implications for Pakistan

Ummair #

I show ur previous posts regarding, Pakistanis criticising more India-Pak conflicts than Indian. This is the first time I saw someone saying ``Pakistan was wrong in attacking Kargil``. I would have appreciated if you would have said morally wrong. This is the reason why I say that:

1)All the criticism of India-Pak conflict from Pakistanis is based on the Idea that wether it benifited ``Pakistan`` or ``India``. It is not based on wehter it is morally right or wrong. There criticism is that now the world think Pakistan is bad so Pakistan so Pakistan is at lost, so Pakistan should not have done it. It gave India an edge.

2)Injustice to innocent people in Kashmir, is always blamed on Indian Army. If they happen to Kashmiri it is because, Indian are bad to Kashmiris. If it happen to be Hindus, than Indian army did it to give bad name to Pakistan. I might have missed, but the Post I saw were.. asking for prooves that it was done by militants and not Indian army(see Krashid previous Posts.)

3)I never saw anyone talking about Pakistan`s army direct involvement in Kashmir affair. It is more than just moral support.

3)Without knowing the actual numbers it is difficult to say that for every Indian soldier hurt, there is a Pakistani soldier hurt. I personally feel that there should be a global organisation to help families of soldiers, irrespective of the country they belong to.Long back I remember this, a hindu women in Kashmir was widowed on her wedding day. They killed her husband during marriage (not sure if it was before the marriage was complete or after).

The type of Pakistanis`s criticism does not to me in any way indicate that, Pakistani criticise Pakistan more in India-Pak conflicts than Indians do.

Regarding Siachen, and comparing it to Kargil.. is little far fetched. This is why Kargil generated so much of attention/emotion where as Siachen does not (somebody already posted Indian`s point of view on Siachen). One more thing, Indian thought that Pakistan is going to occupy that post. So they pre-empted them. Now Pakistan wants to have bilateral withdraw.. ah ha. Do you think Pakistan would have withdrawn if they had got there first?

Saying India is trying to bleed Pakistan and make it poorer. A poor country trying to make another poor. The list of complaints against Pakistan from Indians is long too, like supporting terrorism, increasing religious dis-harmony among religious group and even introducing fake currency.

It will be in India`s interest if there is peace. If there is peace, India will move forward I think at a greater rate than Pakistan. I feel that Pakistan will hate that (you see how we feel about each other and I think we are good educated common man).

Indian criticise themselves internally much more. We say Caste system is wrong and try to fix it. I have never seen a Pakistani saying hey it is unfair to say ``a man can have multiple wives``. This was just an example, I am not sure if this is written in someone religious book.

I think that if we believe that Pakistan is being harmful to India and on the wrong side, than Indians should try to see how they can change Pakistan`s attitude (Same is true if Pakistani`s also want to change Indian attitude and Indians are wrong). One reason why Pakistan behaves the way it does, is because it has nothing to loose. It does not have significant Hindu population so can preach hatredness for them. Majority are good, but they keep quiet as it does not hurt them. Indians cannot say any one religion is bad as they have ``many`` religions living together. So they have something to loose. (This is same as Germans can be racist, but Americans cannot afford to be racist. This does not mean there are no racist American). It is only now that Pakistan seems to be ``loosing`` for enemity with India. I am not sure how long this will last. First Americans helped/used them. If China gets rich it will help/use them. (Enemity always costs, but we do not always realise that).

If I believed that, boycotting Pakistani product would hurt them significantly to make the common man speak up, I would have encouraged it.

I think we all are good, but not saint. We need a reason to express our goodness. Some time it only comes out when we have something to loose. Maybe this is a case of ``No love without fear``.

The main cause for all this India-Pak problem is mis-trust among each other and not enough believe in human goodness or God.

Pakistanis think ``India is out to destroy them and wipe them out``. Honestly as an Indian, I never had these feeling neither found these feeling in other Indians. I only came to know of these when someone wrote in an article why Pakistanis fear India. It is true that Indians do not have very high opinion of Pakistan, they will laugh if someone says ``Pakistan wants peace``. I think (not sure because of Kashmir or Kargil, they feeled hurt), Indians are becoming more agressive toward Pakistan. Recent church blasts in south again were related to a group which had connection to Pakistan (this state is being ruled by Congress).

Indians think: ``Pakistan hates the idea of India moving ahead and becoming powerful. They want to divide India and weaken it``. When I see the posts here and read dawn, there is a strange sense of comparing to ``India``. In dawn there was an article comparing Jinnah to Gandhi. I do not think the two can be compared. If we live Pakistanis and Indians view aside, see how many foreign countries talk about Jinnaha or Gandhi. If I am wrong, let me know. I being an Indian may not have heard about Jinnah. Such unhealthy comparisions will generate jealousy and hatredness in Pakistanis. Trying to compare and have progress is good thing.

Vijay

Assad_K #220

I have confidence in the pakistanis in US. They are great at what they do - heck

if not for their govt screwing up things I would have used them and made tons

of money. Some of the great sales people I know are paki - Forget whites, they leave

tehm in the dust. All I am asking from them is not do fund raisers or lobby

politically for their govt until their govt minds its business. If things get harder here they

can start raising money for pro indian political parties back home. I am sure

they will come up with lot of ways, being the versatile people they are. You

can do it man - try harder.

Funny, all this tamasha started out with a terribly thought out piece with the logical consistency of swiss cheese.

manoj (#225): You said [The essential differences between Siachen and Kargil are

1) The boundary/LOC ( call what u want ) was defined in case of Kargil but not in case of Siachen.]

It is true that boundary in Siachen was not well defined. That, however, does not make it right for Indira Gandhi to move in and occupy it. You must accept it as a smaller wrong as compared to the bigger wrong (Kargill bu Pakistan). You must also understand that sometimes a small mistake can lead to a blunder or a small irritant over period becomes major problem.

Not only Umairr but many other Pakistanis have thoroughly criticized Pakistani actions of Kargill. On the other hand, Saichen incident is treated as you did by most Indians. There should have been enough criticism of it as unnecessary and lead to inflammable situation. Very few Indians have openly criticized Indira Gandhi`s handling of Khalistan Movement, Operation Blue Star, its aftermath and even less are critical of Indian Military moving into Siachen. In case of Khalistan, I am sorry to say, but it appears only some Punjabis are critical of it-less than 5 percent of Indian population. You compare this with almost across the board criticism by Pakistanis from all ethnic groups, of Pakistani handling of Balochi uprising during Z. A. Bhutto`s regime.

I agree with sac`s contention of Pakistsn`s security implications of India`s IT successes. The business interests of capitalist world dictate the foreign policies and strategic relationships as reflected in the warming up of Indo-West relationships. It is a bad sign for Pakistani interests as defined by successive Pakistani govenments-the dominating anti-India segment of identity and future outlook. Although I agree with Sac about the need for Pakistan to implement IT policies on war-footing but an improvement of relationships with India is even more important. It will require a change of vision-a vision where India and Indians are not seen as a threat to the security and well-being of Pakistan and Pakistanis respectively.

ABC 20/20 Friday September 1, 2000

Why is tiny Hong Kong so rich and gigantic India so poor? One of the most common answers in recent decades has been population density: There are simply too many people in places like India, or so goes the conventional wisdom.



India does have a free press, freedom of religion and expression and a democratic government (elevating its ranking on the less economics-oriented Freedom House survey). Well it`s the largest democracy in the world.

But its thicket of business regulations and bureaucratic restrictions is so dense — and wealth so difficult to create there — that Indians endure a standard of living

as low as that of communist countries. John Stossel visits Calcutta, India interviews prominent Indians in USA Dinesh D`souza, Silicon Valley CEO Kanwal Rekhi and West Bengal politicians.

http://abcnews.go.com/onair/DailyNews/chat_stossel0901.html

Chat with John Stossel

Moderator: Why did you choose to focus on Hong Kong and India in your program?



John Stossel: Because so many people believe natural resources are the key to success and high population the root to failure. India and Hong Kong demonstrate the falsity of that.

Moderator: What are some concrete steps that nations like India and North Korea could take to improve their current conditions?



John Stossel: Stop regulating people to death.

Stingray says: Do you seriously think that economic planning, not astronomical population growth, has anything to do with the status of third-world nations?



John Stossel: Yes. Didn`t you just watch the program?

Hysterics in America do believe that population growth is the root of all evil. But Hong Kong, with greater population depth than India, demonstrates that population growth isn`t the problem. Clueless, meddling bureaucrats who think they know better how to run your life are the problem.

Dear chowkwallas,

Just thought I would share a mini-IT revolution I just had after replacing phone wire with cable modem this morning at home. Cable Modem clocked at 1,519 kb (a little bit more than 40kb via phone!) which I believe is near T1 speeds. Another example of how rapidly this whole business in evolving.

RE: tahmad321 #232

Nerd!

Umairr,

Let me take this opportunity to thank you for your kind words. I reciprocate your admiration. Chowk has given me a new found respect for Pakistanis like yourself, Bilal, tahmed, Sameer,Feroze & many many others.

The fact that you & tahmed take responsibilities as employers with the highest moral values should be an inspiration to us all. As far as I`m concerened, you guys stand for what real muslims are all about.

BTW, are you the same Umairr of the wordwallah & clickmarks fame?! I cant be sure because the name sometimes has two ``m``s & ends with two ``r``s. If you are, my hats off to you, youre a real genious! If not, it doesnt make an iota of difference. Youre a hell of a nice guy in my book, just the same. Let me know in either case:)

This is my personal opinion. I dont think the views of most Indians on Chowk completely represents what most Indians feel about their country & Pakistan. I think it just comes out that way.

In my personal experience, when Indians are by themselves & discussing India, they put down & criticise India more than what Pakistanis do here on Chowk. They also admire Pakistan`s economic accomplishments (past accomplishments) & prowess in sports. They may do it,perhaps, grudginly & enviously, but we`re only human yaar:)

For some reason, when Pakistanis are present & say the same thing about India, they start circling their wagons, and become defensive. Some of them throw gobs of mud at you because they feel that offense is the best defence.

But then, you must admit that there are enough guys on your side of the fence who splatter us with mud as well. Who throws more mud is a subjective impression & ,IMHO, an excercise in futility. After all, we humans tend to remember the gobs of mud that went splat on our face,more than the number of mud balls we`ve thrown over the fence.

I`ve learnt about this curious human phenomena from none other than my good ole mother. She would be extremely critical of her children. But if anyone from outside our family even dared to say anything critical of us, God help them!! She`d pick up the nearest sword & hack their heads off :)

I`ve also found that most of those Indians that are extremely critical of Pakistan are privately extremely critical of India as well. For eg, if you follow RSaxena`s posts carefully, he lashes out at India vociferously (when his guard is down).

Er-one last thing, please dont tell Saxena I said that about him. Otherwise we`ll have to endure his crap all over again--

GDR

(grinning, ducking & running)

We say Kargil, you say Siachen-

You say moral duty to oppose human right abuses; we say terrorism-pure & simple.

We say tomaeto, you say tamaato!

My God this is never going to end!

India/Pakistan, hindu/muslim grudges (real or imagined) go back forever. Unless & until both sides freemly admit that both have made mistakes & there is plenty of dirt under both our fingernails & neither of us have earned the right to take the high moral ground , we are headed towards nuclear annihilation. IT/YT is not going to mean a damn thing.

Just a thought...

vsn #116 I am surprised at the arrogance and exaggerated sense of self importance displayed by you and some other Indians posters. As krashid says, God finds a living for everyone. There is a lot more to the IT revolution than what you and your felllow Indian chauvinists will ever know.

sadna# 177 So we Pakistanis do not have a monopoly on bigots!

Mere pyaare Chowkwalloh,

Please forgive my numerous postings. My wife & teenage daughter are trying to drag me to the mall for shopping on this fine Labor Day weekend. I`m trying to tell them I have more important things to do. My wife accuses me of engaging in verbal masturbation about Indo-Pak relations.

I`m telling her if we cant have sex this fine afternoon, I might as well masterbate (er, verbally, ofcourse). It sure beats the heck out of going shopping. O my fellow menfolk of Indo-Pak, please support me on this point at least!

Let me bring up the issue of Kargil. Pakistanis are irritated why Indians are beating this horse to death, especially when Pakistanis on Chowk have criticised Kargil. Not to mention that we Indians are so convieniently downplaying Siachen & sweeping our other demons under the carpet.

First of all, I`m not asking Pakistanis to judge us differently. That privilege is yours & yours only. I want Pakistanis to put their personal biases aside & try to empathise where Indians are coming from. Why are we squaking so much about Kargil? that some have gone to the extent of boycotting Pakistanis & their products; especially when there is plenty of hypocracy within us.

The Lahore Peace process was not any ordinary deal for us; it was a HUGE deal.In fact it was the biggest deal in our sorry Indo-Pak relations. This was the first time EVER that an Indian Prime Minister stepped foot on Pakistani soil. Vajpayee defied the radical elements in his party & went to Pakistan. The partition generation of India (which is still in power today) has struggled to reconcile with the two nation theory. This visit was a big deal because it symbolised their emotional acceptance that Pakistan was a separate distinct country with which we have to do business with. Even though the meeting didnt produce any great results, that fact that it even happened was a major triumph that there are people on both sides who are willing to put our grudges (real or imagined) aside & talk. It set the ball rolling in the right direction.

If the Government of Pakistan was angry about Siachen & Kargil was a justifiable military strategy, then for God`s sake DONT invite Vajpayee. If you`ve taken the responsibility of being a gracious host, then you`ve taken the responsibility of being sincere about it. Either cancel the Kargil plan or cancel the invitation. You cant have it both ways. What does it say about the famous Pakistani hospitality, when you plan & execute Kargil while you are entertaining our Prime Minister?

I think what Vajpayee was most pissed about was the radical Indian fundos started squaking ``WE TOLD YOU SO!!!``

As far as Indians were concerned, it is the epitomy of the proverb ``bhagal mein churi---`` The fact that this was the first war on tv, galvanised most Indians-even those who had no interest in politics. Indian muslims were just as outraged as hindus. Few events in recent history have brought Indians behind one banner as this one. So, as much as you justify Kargil with Siachen, it doesnt mean a whole lot to us--right,wrong or indifferent. The issue of Siachen should have been dealt with in diplomacy rather than military tactics.

How did the rest of the world see it? They all sided with India. Even the ``all weather friend`` China told Pakistan to cut the crap--politely, of course. To make matters worse, Nawaz Shariff & Musharaff publicly contradicted each other. When Pakistan blames India for trying to isolate it internationally, its a joke. Indian diplomacy, govermental or NGO has`nt been effective. Its not that they havent tried, its just that they arent as successful as many think they are. Pakistan has done a great job digging its own grave.

OK, so our stalwart Pakistani brothers have been very critical of that mistake. But thats a moot point. The very honorable Musharraf STILL insists that the Pakistani military was not invovled. He STILL insists that Pakistan is only giving ``moral & political`` aid to the jehadis. He said that with a straight face when he spoke to Clinton! Do you really think Clinton bought his line? Heck he did`nt even publicly shake his hand! If the rest of the world doesnt buy it, how in the hell do you expect Indians to buy it?!

Right,wrong or indifferent, to Indians, Musharraf is the diabolical villain in this plot. He was the evil genious who refused to obey NS & refused to be present at the Lahore peace process. He was the main guy behind the betrayal of Kargil. They see him showing absolutely no remorse for his actions. They dont believe that he is giving only moral & political support to the jehadi/(terrorists in their eyes). He continues to go on the stump & rouses Pakistanis to fervor on the Kashmir issue. Then he publicly wonders why India refuses to talk to him. The Indian response is ``Mushy, youre so full of sh *t, that youre eyes have turned brown!!``

Personally, I`m in favor of talks because that is the only hope our countries have for survival. Our responsibility for the commitment to peace is something we have to undertake, for the sake of our children. Mushy or no Mushy, we have to get along ,we have no choice but let go of our grudges. Besides, who among us has`nt made mistakes or has`nt sinned?

RE: Shankar #237

Tsk! Tsk! Tsk!

Urstruly,

Bus, sirf ``tsk,tsk,tsk`` ?!

Kuch to kaho ji

Aandey aur tamatar phekna hai to pheklijiye

I can duck:)

shankar #235, ``Chowk has given me a new found

respect for Pakistanis like yourself, Bilal, tahmed, Sameer,Feroze & many many others.``

Hey, what about Slink and Sadhna and Jawahara and Zahra and Zehra and Fozia and Frog-goddess and Sobia and Lubna and Anamika and many many other women without whom Chowk lacks flavor and female worldliness.

Some men are such MCP`s.

scout

VijayAmrit #227

I can tell you why a person reading history cannot criticize four wives.

The commandment for (a maiximum of) four wives came after Ghazwah Uhad (battle of Uhad) in which a large number of Muslims were killed. And there was a problem of widows. In Islam extramarital sex is not allowed, and that was the solution.

That is why most Muslims, particularly practicing Muslims engage in monogamous relationship, and polygamy is an exception, rather than a rule.

As far as Arab Sheikhs, their oil wealth has made their behaviour similar to their western counterparts with wealth, the difference is this that one gives it a cover of liberalism and other twists Islam.

Re: shankar

``For eg, if you follow RSaxena`s posts carefully, he lashes out at India vociferously (when his guard is down).``

You sneaky little leftist...thought you`d get away with this didn`t you? Just wait and see what comes your way next...