sac August 27, 2000
#33 Posted by cbb on August 28, 2000 4:57:38 pm
I think that the idea of putting a so called
``right strategy`` wihin 2 years belies other
arguments made elsewhere in the article.
For example, just like Indian government has
contributed only to the extent that it provided
infra structure for education but it did not
contribute any thing towards IT itself; the same
way having any strategy made by the Pakistan
government now will be counter productive.
As suggested by the author himself, government
should be out of this picture but it should focus
on revamping the education system only.
To be honest, changing the education system is
also superficial. The whole outlook towards
education, especially science related education,
will have to be re developed.
And this job certainly needs peace at the mind
and at the borders! It also assumes approval
from jihadi parties and from other religious right
wing sectors who inadvertantly link science with
western propaganda.
I hope, for a change, this issue is not linked
with India Pakistan rut, but is linked to a
welfare of around a billion or so South Asians
who do not have access to good education. The last
thing we need is a debate on who excels in C++,
an Indian or a Pakistani!
In today`s world, educa
``right strategy`` wihin 2 years belies other
arguments made elsewhere in the article.
For example, just like Indian government has
contributed only to the extent that it provided
infra structure for education but it did not
contribute any thing towards IT itself; the same
way having any strategy made by the Pakistan
government now will be counter productive.
As suggested by the author himself, government
should be out of this picture but it should focus
on revamping the education system only.
To be honest, changing the education system is
also superficial. The whole outlook towards
education, especially science related education,
will have to be re developed.
And this job certainly needs peace at the mind
and at the borders! It also assumes approval
from jihadi parties and from other religious right
wing sectors who inadvertantly link science with
western propaganda.
I hope, for a change, this issue is not linked
with India Pakistan rut, but is linked to a
welfare of around a billion or so South Asians
who do not have access to good education. The last
thing we need is a debate on who excels in C++,
an Indian or a Pakistani!
In today`s world, educa
#34 Posted by Anarchistan on August 28, 2000 4:57:38 pm
surely there are those who think it wouldn`t be such a bad idea if pakistan does become a vassal state of india. as long as they let us field our own cricket team. with all due respect to the horrors of war, etc., forcing wasim to open the bowling with srinath et al. would be a REAL tragedy.
#35 Posted by Umairr on August 28, 2000 9:41:25 pm
``Pakistan has a window of opportunity of not more than two years to get its IT strategy in place. After that no increase in defense budget or nuclear capability can prevent the inevitable. India will have won the war without firing a single shot.``
This last paragraph seems to form the gist of your argument. I cannot agree with it. First of all, how did you come up with the timeframe of two years? Why not one year, or ten years?
Secondly, you argue that Pakistan needs to get its IT strategy in place. However, earlier you argue that the govt. needs to, ``get out of the way.`` If the key is for the govt. to completely get out of the way, then a national IT strategy is not required. All private industries in any country, work within a framework of rules and regulations that are formed by the govt.
Thirdly, you state that, ``increase in budget provisions for IT are useless.`` In my opinion, the first thing that needs to be done is to increase the IT budget. While I agree that the govt. should not get into the minute details of policy making, it definitely needs to inject money into the system. Where else is the money going to come from to set up the infrastructure? Who is going to set up colleges, and schools, lay down cable etc? In every country of the world, infrastructure is always initially set up by the govt. Govts. can hire private companies to set up the infrastructure, however the govts. have to put in the initial money. The progenitor of the Internet was ArpaNet; a US govt. Department of Defense project. I believe the UN actually defines a certain percentage of the national budget that all countries should spend on IT. So the govt. money is desperately needed. What needs to be avoided is undue beuracratic interference from the govt. The former and later are two different things.
Competition amongst countries in IT is not a win-lose scenario. It is not like a war. If one country is successful in IT, it does not necessarily mean the other country will lose out, or cease to exist. The only time that can happen is if the successful country uses the money generated from IT to bulk up its defence forces and then attack its opposition. If India does decide to adapt that policy, then it will only be Pakistan`s nuclear capability that will act as a deterrent; not the amount of progress Pakistan makes in IT.
From what I have read in the newspapers, and through conversations with friends in Pakistan, the current Pakistani govt. is doing quite a bit in IT. There is a comprehensive IT policy that has been formed, which for once, seems to make a lot of sense. Most of the members forming the policy were from the private sector. Three or four universities are being established. I think Aga Khan is being contacted to establish a university on the lines of Aga Khan Medical College. A virtual university is being planned. The Internet access rates have been reduced by over 50%, and will be reduced by another 25%. PTCL will be privatized soon. PTCL`s control of Network Access Points in Pakistan has been stopped. Voice over IP has been legalized, and PTCL will now have to compete against private companies in this area. All govt. servants will now be evaluated on IT skills. All govt. departments have been ordered to webify themselves. NCR has established Pakistan`s first datawarehouse in the form of the NADRA database. This will be like the Social Security Database in the US. Various VC funds have been contacted to provide upto $1 million dollars each for entrepreneurial projects. A few have already started doing so. All of Pakistan has been declared a tax-reduced or tax-free zone for IT. Musharraf has been willing to go to the openings of even small IT shops just to encourage IT professionals. The IT budget was increased by a phenomenal percentage (in the thousands).
Not bad for 10 months of work. I do not know how much of the above will be successful. However, as an IT person myself, I think the current govt. has the right idea.
The govt. initially contacted Safi Qureshi (I believe the only South Asian whose IT company has ever made it to the Fortune 500 list) to be the minister of S&T. He refused due to his philanthropic commitments. It then contacted Masood Jabbar, the Pakistani-American President of Sun Microsystems. He almost agreed, but later turned it down. So you cannot blame the current govt. for not trying to get top talent from the private industry. The above two can hold their own against anyone in the international IT management arena. The current minister Dr. Atta-ur-Rahman, is an internationally recognized scientist, and seems to be doing quite well.
Lets see what happens.
So, while I agree with the article on an abstract level, i.e. Pakistan needs to progress in IT, I do not agree with the reasons you have given to justify the progress. Pakistan should try to progress in IT regardless of what India is doing. Apart from self-defence, there is no need for Pakistan to relate everything to India. And the only situation under which India`s IT success could be a military threat to Pakistan is if India starts pumping its IT money into its military. I think it would be quite useless of India to do so. It would infact be to Pakistan`s advantage if India started pumping IT money into its defences forces, on not into its economic infrastructure. Pakistan has on the whole decided to freeze its conventional defence budget, and is now relying on a nuclear deterent. This in my opinion is the right way to go. With a strong nuclear deterrent in place in Pakistan, it doesn`t really make any difference how large India`s military becomes.
This last paragraph seems to form the gist of your argument. I cannot agree with it. First of all, how did you come up with the timeframe of two years? Why not one year, or ten years?
Secondly, you argue that Pakistan needs to get its IT strategy in place. However, earlier you argue that the govt. needs to, ``get out of the way.`` If the key is for the govt. to completely get out of the way, then a national IT strategy is not required. All private industries in any country, work within a framework of rules and regulations that are formed by the govt.
Thirdly, you state that, ``increase in budget provisions for IT are useless.`` In my opinion, the first thing that needs to be done is to increase the IT budget. While I agree that the govt. should not get into the minute details of policy making, it definitely needs to inject money into the system. Where else is the money going to come from to set up the infrastructure? Who is going to set up colleges, and schools, lay down cable etc? In every country of the world, infrastructure is always initially set up by the govt. Govts. can hire private companies to set up the infrastructure, however the govts. have to put in the initial money. The progenitor of the Internet was ArpaNet; a US govt. Department of Defense project. I believe the UN actually defines a certain percentage of the national budget that all countries should spend on IT. So the govt. money is desperately needed. What needs to be avoided is undue beuracratic interference from the govt. The former and later are two different things.
Competition amongst countries in IT is not a win-lose scenario. It is not like a war. If one country is successful in IT, it does not necessarily mean the other country will lose out, or cease to exist. The only time that can happen is if the successful country uses the money generated from IT to bulk up its defence forces and then attack its opposition. If India does decide to adapt that policy, then it will only be Pakistan`s nuclear capability that will act as a deterrent; not the amount of progress Pakistan makes in IT.
From what I have read in the newspapers, and through conversations with friends in Pakistan, the current Pakistani govt. is doing quite a bit in IT. There is a comprehensive IT policy that has been formed, which for once, seems to make a lot of sense. Most of the members forming the policy were from the private sector. Three or four universities are being established. I think Aga Khan is being contacted to establish a university on the lines of Aga Khan Medical College. A virtual university is being planned. The Internet access rates have been reduced by over 50%, and will be reduced by another 25%. PTCL will be privatized soon. PTCL`s control of Network Access Points in Pakistan has been stopped. Voice over IP has been legalized, and PTCL will now have to compete against private companies in this area. All govt. servants will now be evaluated on IT skills. All govt. departments have been ordered to webify themselves. NCR has established Pakistan`s first datawarehouse in the form of the NADRA database. This will be like the Social Security Database in the US. Various VC funds have been contacted to provide upto $1 million dollars each for entrepreneurial projects. A few have already started doing so. All of Pakistan has been declared a tax-reduced or tax-free zone for IT. Musharraf has been willing to go to the openings of even small IT shops just to encourage IT professionals. The IT budget was increased by a phenomenal percentage (in the thousands).
Not bad for 10 months of work. I do not know how much of the above will be successful. However, as an IT person myself, I think the current govt. has the right idea.
The govt. initially contacted Safi Qureshi (I believe the only South Asian whose IT company has ever made it to the Fortune 500 list) to be the minister of S&T. He refused due to his philanthropic commitments. It then contacted Masood Jabbar, the Pakistani-American President of Sun Microsystems. He almost agreed, but later turned it down. So you cannot blame the current govt. for not trying to get top talent from the private industry. The above two can hold their own against anyone in the international IT management arena. The current minister Dr. Atta-ur-Rahman, is an internationally recognized scientist, and seems to be doing quite well.
Lets see what happens.
So, while I agree with the article on an abstract level, i.e. Pakistan needs to progress in IT, I do not agree with the reasons you have given to justify the progress. Pakistan should try to progress in IT regardless of what India is doing. Apart from self-defence, there is no need for Pakistan to relate everything to India. And the only situation under which India`s IT success could be a military threat to Pakistan is if India starts pumping its IT money into its military. I think it would be quite useless of India to do so. It would infact be to Pakistan`s advantage if India started pumping IT money into its defences forces, on not into its economic infrastructure. Pakistan has on the whole decided to freeze its conventional defence budget, and is now relying on a nuclear deterent. This in my opinion is the right way to go. With a strong nuclear deterrent in place in Pakistan, it doesn`t really make any difference how large India`s military becomes.
#36 Posted by tahmed321 on August 28, 2000 9:41:25 pm
Rdesikan Right on! IT Zindabad (all God`s children have jobs now!!)
#37 Posted by sac on August 28, 2000 9:41:25 pm
This article was written for a Pakistani newspaper with the intention of stimulating discussion on the topic. India was used as a convenient vehicle to provoke action, hence the ``jingoistic`` tone of the article.
As usual the holier than thou Indians have self-congratulated themselves to a GPF and the self-pitying Pakistanis don`t see a light at the end of the tunnel. veeresh in his reply #8 and some others have raised the question of why does Pakistan need to look at India for inspiration? For better or for worse being anti-India has become a necessary ingredient of Pakistani identity. This is the dilemma that faces the nation-state. As the zionist visionary Theodor Herzl pointed out so poignantly. ``A nation is a historical group of men of recongnizable cohesion,held together by a common enemy``, Pakistan needs to harness that obsession with India for its own good.
That is why instead of promoting feel-good exerises like bus-rides to Lahore, the only chance peace has is to promote economic co-operation between the two countries. The gas-pipeline from Iran passing through Pakistan to India has little chance of going through but if it does would be the sort of mutually beneficial transaction that may lead to lessening of tensions.Pakistan and India as nations will never be friends.There has been too much bad blood between the two. But maybe they can save the aggression for cricket matches and Chowk interacts only :)
Coming back to the IT debate,I am sick and tired of reading about the IITs.As far as I am concerned the kids from IITs might as well have been taught ceramic-making.They would still have done well abroad.The worst student in my engineering class back in Paksitan now holds 6 patents!!
The question of whether the government can do much to help in IT industry development is an interesting one. I agree that the government should concentrate on improving the overall education standard,law and order situation,credit and taxation policies but most importantly it should recognize the limits of its authority.A nuclear bomb or the army cannot unify an almost failed state.Pakistanis need to start believing in themselves(Are you listening ameegoes?) and their abilities. There is still time. But not much.
later
-sac
P.S: re crypto #23:
An analysis of the ``brain`` virus revealed the address of its creators in the boot-sector :) BTW the same guys run the biggest ISP in Lahore now.
P.P.S: re anamika: Maybe you and RSaxena should meet.It will be more than a meeting of the minds. You can then negotiate for a group discount for Ritalin and Prozac at the local Duane Reade.
As usual the holier than thou Indians have self-congratulated themselves to a GPF and the self-pitying Pakistanis don`t see a light at the end of the tunnel. veeresh in his reply #8 and some others have raised the question of why does Pakistan need to look at India for inspiration? For better or for worse being anti-India has become a necessary ingredient of Pakistani identity. This is the dilemma that faces the nation-state. As the zionist visionary Theodor Herzl pointed out so poignantly. ``A nation is a historical group of men of recongnizable cohesion,held together by a common enemy``, Pakistan needs to harness that obsession with India for its own good.
That is why instead of promoting feel-good exerises like bus-rides to Lahore, the only chance peace has is to promote economic co-operation between the two countries. The gas-pipeline from Iran passing through Pakistan to India has little chance of going through but if it does would be the sort of mutually beneficial transaction that may lead to lessening of tensions.Pakistan and India as nations will never be friends.There has been too much bad blood between the two. But maybe they can save the aggression for cricket matches and Chowk interacts only :)
Coming back to the IT debate,I am sick and tired of reading about the IITs.As far as I am concerned the kids from IITs might as well have been taught ceramic-making.They would still have done well abroad.The worst student in my engineering class back in Paksitan now holds 6 patents!!
The question of whether the government can do much to help in IT industry development is an interesting one. I agree that the government should concentrate on improving the overall education standard,law and order situation,credit and taxation policies but most importantly it should recognize the limits of its authority.A nuclear bomb or the army cannot unify an almost failed state.Pakistanis need to start believing in themselves(Are you listening ameegoes?) and their abilities. There is still time. But not much.
later
-sac
P.S: re crypto #23:
An analysis of the ``brain`` virus revealed the address of its creators in the boot-sector :) BTW the same guys run the biggest ISP in Lahore now.
P.P.S: re anamika: Maybe you and RSaxena should meet.It will be more than a meeting of the minds. You can then negotiate for a group discount for Ritalin and Prozac at the local Duane Reade.
#38 Posted by Chowk Staff on August 28, 2000 9:43:21 pm
The following response was submitted via email:
The article by sac is pure sensationalism. The idea that India`s IT revolution is a security threat to Pakistan is far fetched. The real
threat to the very existence of Pakistan is the state of it`s economy which is in shambles. The value of the rupee is sliding and the country
needs foreign exchange desperately. The government`s sudden interest in IT is due to the realization that software may be it`s only chance to increase exports and get some urgently needed foreign exchange to keep it`s head above water.
Recent research in India on the IT software success has drawn the following four conclusions: Software export is not directly related to
usage of IT in the Industrial and Commercial sectors, the setting up of IITs by the Nehru government has been instrumental in producing the
required IT manpower at the apportune time for India, the use of English as the medium of technical instruction is part of the reason for success and the management skills available to industrial houses like Tata was the catalyst in setting up software companies in India.
Pakistan can duplicate India`s success although the gap at this stage is very wide. The government`s help is required to set up top notch IT universities. sac`s contention that the state should back off would be disastrous if followed in the case of setting up these universities.
Private sector universities like LUMS,GIK and NUST charge students over Rs.2 lakhs a year. How many students can afford such fee. Pakistan needs
many more institutions like FAST in the public sector. The English language skills of our students is pathetic. These need upgrading. Well
managed industrial concerns such as ENGRO should be encouraged to start software houses. It is with steps like these that we can bring about a
change in Pakistan`s fortunes. Imagining every Indian success as a security threat to Pakistan is distorted thinking and it is time that such conspiracy theories are put to rest.
Sincerely
Hasan Masood Mirza
Islamabad
The article by sac is pure sensationalism. The idea that India`s IT revolution is a security threat to Pakistan is far fetched. The real
threat to the very existence of Pakistan is the state of it`s economy which is in shambles. The value of the rupee is sliding and the country
needs foreign exchange desperately. The government`s sudden interest in IT is due to the realization that software may be it`s only chance to increase exports and get some urgently needed foreign exchange to keep it`s head above water.
Recent research in India on the IT software success has drawn the following four conclusions: Software export is not directly related to
usage of IT in the Industrial and Commercial sectors, the setting up of IITs by the Nehru government has been instrumental in producing the
required IT manpower at the apportune time for India, the use of English as the medium of technical instruction is part of the reason for success and the management skills available to industrial houses like Tata was the catalyst in setting up software companies in India.
Pakistan can duplicate India`s success although the gap at this stage is very wide. The government`s help is required to set up top notch IT universities. sac`s contention that the state should back off would be disastrous if followed in the case of setting up these universities.
Private sector universities like LUMS,GIK and NUST charge students over Rs.2 lakhs a year. How many students can afford such fee. Pakistan needs
many more institutions like FAST in the public sector. The English language skills of our students is pathetic. These need upgrading. Well
managed industrial concerns such as ENGRO should be encouraged to start software houses. It is with steps like these that we can bring about a
change in Pakistan`s fortunes. Imagining every Indian success as a security threat to Pakistan is distorted thinking and it is time that such conspiracy theories are put to rest.
Sincerely
Hasan Masood Mirza
Islamabad
#39 Posted by sadna on August 28, 2000 11:47:47 pm
sac #37
``For better or for worse being anti-India has become a necessary ingredient of Pakistani identity. This is the dilemma that faces the nation-state.``
Leave the nation-state and Pakistani identity issue out of IT, it has no place there. It ought not to even have been present in basic matters of food, water, law and order and employment(same goes for India).
Pakistan should focus its efforts in finding the right niche of itself in the IT boom and on maximising its successes. This worthy aim does not imply the best way to do so is to make its measure of success or failure, the `overtaking` of another country with 7+ times its population.
Pankaj #6
You say India and Pakistan should resolve issues and start cooperating. Amen to that.
Vikram #14
Your post is right on the mark, thanks. You give the right perspective when you say,
``By being way ahead in IT a critical component of the ``connected world`` India will not only be influential directly but powerful multi nationals will have a vested interest in influencing their governments to neutralize Pakistan. These corporations might not be critically dependent on India but with a enough of time and money at stake to be bothered.``
Hopefully this will make sac temper his `slight paranoia` somewhat :-).
Sadhana
``For better or for worse being anti-India has become a necessary ingredient of Pakistani identity. This is the dilemma that faces the nation-state.``
Leave the nation-state and Pakistani identity issue out of IT, it has no place there. It ought not to even have been present in basic matters of food, water, law and order and employment(same goes for India).
Pakistan should focus its efforts in finding the right niche of itself in the IT boom and on maximising its successes. This worthy aim does not imply the best way to do so is to make its measure of success or failure, the `overtaking` of another country with 7+ times its population.
Pankaj #6
You say India and Pakistan should resolve issues and start cooperating. Amen to that.
Vikram #14
Your post is right on the mark, thanks. You give the right perspective when you say,
``By being way ahead in IT a critical component of the ``connected world`` India will not only be influential directly but powerful multi nationals will have a vested interest in influencing their governments to neutralize Pakistan. These corporations might not be critically dependent on India but with a enough of time and money at stake to be bothered.``
Hopefully this will make sac temper his `slight paranoia` somewhat :-).
Sadhana
#40 Posted by fairdinkum on August 29, 2000 12:01:12 am
Umairr #36
Dear Umairr,
Thank you for taking time to write this post. I concur.
Dear Umairr,
Thank you for taking time to write this post. I concur.
#41 Posted by Rdesikan on August 29, 2000 12:18:37 am
RE Sac #37
``This article was written for a Pakistani newspaper with the intention of stimulating discussion on the topic. India was used as a convenient vehicle to provoke action, hence the ``jingoistic`` tone of the article.``
You`re trying to speak from both sides of your mouth. Even if it were done for the reason of stimulating discussion, you still have couched it in terms of hatred, and then you tell us that we`ve overreacted. Give me a break.
So you`re sick of the IITs. So am I. But rather than convert this sickness into sheer hatred, why don`t you guys try to emulate the successes in your mileau.
BTW, if certain desis need lithium, the doctor`s prescription for your country could well be euthanasia.
In the meanwhile, we`ll just watch you slip and sink even further while you try to kick up some action in Kashmir.
Cheers
``This article was written for a Pakistani newspaper with the intention of stimulating discussion on the topic. India was used as a convenient vehicle to provoke action, hence the ``jingoistic`` tone of the article.``
You`re trying to speak from both sides of your mouth. Even if it were done for the reason of stimulating discussion, you still have couched it in terms of hatred, and then you tell us that we`ve overreacted. Give me a break.
So you`re sick of the IITs. So am I. But rather than convert this sickness into sheer hatred, why don`t you guys try to emulate the successes in your mileau.
BTW, if certain desis need lithium, the doctor`s prescription for your country could well be euthanasia.
In the meanwhile, we`ll just watch you slip and sink even further while you try to kick up some action in Kashmir.
Cheers
#42 Posted by friend on August 29, 2000 12:18:37 am
sac #: 37
``India was used as a convenient vehicle to provoke action, hence the ``jingoistic`` tone of the article.``
Arre bhai sac, why do you have to drag India if you want to provoke action in Pakistan. Is there no other uniting factor in your country?
`` As usual the holier than thou Indians have self-congratulated themselves to a GPF``
If you have a right to drag India in an unnecessary article, why shouldn`t Indian start congratulating themselves.
``For better or for worse being anti-India has become a necessary ingredient of Pakistani identity ... held together by a common enemy``,
Very interesting theory!! Jinnah must be turning in his grave.
``Pakistan and India as nations will never be friends.``
Yes they will never be as long as your generation is alive. You are a real sick person.
disgusted
``India was used as a convenient vehicle to provoke action, hence the ``jingoistic`` tone of the article.``
Arre bhai sac, why do you have to drag India if you want to provoke action in Pakistan. Is there no other uniting factor in your country?
`` As usual the holier than thou Indians have self-congratulated themselves to a GPF``
If you have a right to drag India in an unnecessary article, why shouldn`t Indian start congratulating themselves.
``For better or for worse being anti-India has become a necessary ingredient of Pakistani identity ... held together by a common enemy``,
Very interesting theory!! Jinnah must be turning in his grave.
``Pakistan and India as nations will never be friends.``
Yes they will never be as long as your generation is alive. You are a real sick person.
disgusted
#43 Posted by veeresh on August 29, 2000 12:18:37 am
Wasim with Srinath? Well, Srinath is, also, an infotech engineer by the way (so is Kumble) an now doesn`t that strike terror in ``sac```s heart? By the way, pseudonym is fine but can we have a brief of the person? Can somebody like ``sac`` come up to me at a real chowk wearing a shroud and displaying only his/her ``sacks`` and spout something about ``the sky is falling`` and then make like chicken little?
By the way, cricket still sux and I am really glad that cricket has removed itself from centre-stage at chowk and has been fixed well and truly once and for all . . . are you guys aware that the latest ``Amul`` advertisement lampoons Azhar and Jadeja and other ``cricketers`` and their ability to ``take``? So much for role models . . . and this is just after the copycat Sachin Tendulkar series of ads where he likes to go to a particular restaurant to eat chicken because elsewhere all he gets is ducks . . .
Cricket? Here is an idea for ``sac``: get some balls.
By the way, cricket still sux and I am really glad that cricket has removed itself from centre-stage at chowk and has been fixed well and truly once and for all . . . are you guys aware that the latest ``Amul`` advertisement lampoons Azhar and Jadeja and other ``cricketers`` and their ability to ``take``? So much for role models . . . and this is just after the copycat Sachin Tendulkar series of ads where he likes to go to a particular restaurant to eat chicken because elsewhere all he gets is ducks . . .
Cricket? Here is an idea for ``sac``: get some balls.
#44 Posted by SR on August 29, 2000 12:43:05 am
Earlier today a friend of mine, a recently retired CV surgeon, who is some years my senior and also from Lahore sent the following email message in response to the ``Indian Threat`` pre-occupation of many Pakistanis.
``Perhaps someday the Pakistani nation will stop obsessing about India and worry about Pakistan.
For a country which has never had an elected Prime Minister complete his/her full term, has had more coups and semi-coups than free general elections, has squandered its economic and financial capacity on the altar of personal rapacity, is on the verge of economic collapse, has virtually no civil institutions that are capable of fulfilling their mandates, is caught in a viscous cycle of sectarian violence and, the list goes on, for a country like that to worry about any body but themselves is such paranoid and delusional behaviour that if it were a guy, he would be sitting across from Kinnaird College by now (but then somebody moved the Paghal Khana and made billions of rupees in the process). Let us win the war against ourselves first and then maybe we will worry about India.
No, I am not being pessimistic but just truthful.
Mansoor``
Well said, Mansoor!! (But, boy, you use looong sentences.)
...SR
``Perhaps someday the Pakistani nation will stop obsessing about India and worry about Pakistan.
For a country which has never had an elected Prime Minister complete his/her full term, has had more coups and semi-coups than free general elections, has squandered its economic and financial capacity on the altar of personal rapacity, is on the verge of economic collapse, has virtually no civil institutions that are capable of fulfilling their mandates, is caught in a viscous cycle of sectarian violence and, the list goes on, for a country like that to worry about any body but themselves is such paranoid and delusional behaviour that if it were a guy, he would be sitting across from Kinnaird College by now (but then somebody moved the Paghal Khana and made billions of rupees in the process). Let us win the war against ourselves first and then maybe we will worry about India.
No, I am not being pessimistic but just truthful.
Mansoor``
Well said, Mansoor!! (But, boy, you use looong sentences.)
...SR
#45 Posted by Ras Siddiqui on August 29, 2000 1:10:42 am
Pakistan needs IT for its own survival and
not necessarily because Indians have been successful at it.
The workplace of the future and a current sure
thing for someone who wishes to enter middle income levels both dictate that IT is it these
days.
If thousands of unemployed Pakistani
youth could have access to the IT opportunity,
Pakistan as a whole would benefit.
It is not too late to wake up!
Ras
PS: http://www.hidaya.org/
#46 Posted by crypto on August 29, 2000 2:55:27 am
Gymnosophist #17 :
[``The first list of institutions banned from having contacts with the US after the 1998 nuclear tests included Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, Indian Institute of Science and Saha Institute of Nuclear Physics. I didn`t see a single IIT or engineering college in that. Tells you whom the US fears when it comes to defense-related research. ``]
The primary objective of IITs/RECs is to produce high calibre garduates/undergraduates - who are to form the professional backbone - and as such are focussed on that task. They are not required to be - and they are not - premier research institutions. In contrast, institutions like TIFR, IISc are established to foster research in advanced sciences and not to teach UG. These two are different categories of institutions and therefore cannot be compared against each other.
[``So, I am somewhat correct in my assessment that our IITs have been reduced to turning out drones. The few with marketing skills turn out to be the founders of Silicon Valley companies.``]
IITs haven`t been `reduced` to turn out anybody. A Mining Engineer or an Instrument Engineer produced by an IIT today is as capable for that profession as the engineers produced anytime before. IITs don`t care what their gradudates should turn out to be. Yes, there is a mass-movement of pass-outs into the IT profession, but the reasons for it are different and has nothing to do with the way IITs/RECs train their students.
[`` (You really don`t think that Vinod Dham designed the Pentium chip by himself, do you? Or that Guru Deshpande designs networking chips today?)``]
You really don`t think Bill Gates is designinig OS nowadays, do you ?.. so what the heck ? irrespective whatever they are doing today, they already have a name for themselves don`t they ? and that`s what counts. in the big picture, these guys wouldn`t be more than small steps in the direction to a national brand building.
[``Let us be clear what this IT revolution is all about: it is about writing yet another payroll program and changing the heading CPF (Contributory Provident Fund in India) to Social Security Deductions in the US. Oh, yeah; putting it on the web.``]
Does this not sound along the lines of ``Aircraft building is all about cutting aluminium and fitting nuts and bolts `` ? just because most of our `IT professionals` are involved in writing/maintaining code, it does not mean that IT `revolution` is about writing `yet another payroll program`. True, for all our boasting and self-congradulation, our supposed `achievements` in IT are NOTHING compared to the actual advances made in the field elsewhere. nevertheless, we have made a beginning that was inconceivable just a decade ago.
[``Don`t pat yourself too hard on the back; you might break your arm.``]
hmmmmm...find it very hard to disagree with this one though. we are still a very poor nation and we will be so for a long time to come... our roads are still dirty and our buses and trains are still overcrowded... our bank clerks still take 50 minutes to process a local draft and our linesmen still demand Rs50 to look into a telephone complaint... we are the same, except for the fact that even a guy from remote Bihar has an increased chance of boarding a flight to San Fransisco. No wonder then, most of us are in an euphoric mood.
[``The first list of institutions banned from having contacts with the US after the 1998 nuclear tests included Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, Indian Institute of Science and Saha Institute of Nuclear Physics. I didn`t see a single IIT or engineering college in that. Tells you whom the US fears when it comes to defense-related research. ``]
The primary objective of IITs/RECs is to produce high calibre garduates/undergraduates - who are to form the professional backbone - and as such are focussed on that task. They are not required to be - and they are not - premier research institutions. In contrast, institutions like TIFR, IISc are established to foster research in advanced sciences and not to teach UG. These two are different categories of institutions and therefore cannot be compared against each other.
[``So, I am somewhat correct in my assessment that our IITs have been reduced to turning out drones. The few with marketing skills turn out to be the founders of Silicon Valley companies.``]
IITs haven`t been `reduced` to turn out anybody. A Mining Engineer or an Instrument Engineer produced by an IIT today is as capable for that profession as the engineers produced anytime before. IITs don`t care what their gradudates should turn out to be. Yes, there is a mass-movement of pass-outs into the IT profession, but the reasons for it are different and has nothing to do with the way IITs/RECs train their students.
[`` (You really don`t think that Vinod Dham designed the Pentium chip by himself, do you? Or that Guru Deshpande designs networking chips today?)``]
You really don`t think Bill Gates is designinig OS nowadays, do you ?.. so what the heck ? irrespective whatever they are doing today, they already have a name for themselves don`t they ? and that`s what counts. in the big picture, these guys wouldn`t be more than small steps in the direction to a national brand building.
[``Let us be clear what this IT revolution is all about: it is about writing yet another payroll program and changing the heading CPF (Contributory Provident Fund in India) to Social Security Deductions in the US. Oh, yeah; putting it on the web.``]
Does this not sound along the lines of ``Aircraft building is all about cutting aluminium and fitting nuts and bolts `` ? just because most of our `IT professionals` are involved in writing/maintaining code, it does not mean that IT `revolution` is about writing `yet another payroll program`. True, for all our boasting and self-congradulation, our supposed `achievements` in IT are NOTHING compared to the actual advances made in the field elsewhere. nevertheless, we have made a beginning that was inconceivable just a decade ago.
[``Don`t pat yourself too hard on the back; you might break your arm.``]
hmmmmm...find it very hard to disagree with this one though. we are still a very poor nation and we will be so for a long time to come... our roads are still dirty and our buses and trains are still overcrowded... our bank clerks still take 50 minutes to process a local draft and our linesmen still demand Rs50 to look into a telephone complaint... we are the same, except for the fact that even a guy from remote Bihar has an increased chance of boarding a flight to San Fransisco. No wonder then, most of us are in an euphoric mood.
#47 Posted by pennathur on August 29, 2000 2:55:27 am
Dear Gymnosophist,
That`s what I call a laddu of a reply! Thanks. I shan`t bore readers pasting copies of my post and yours.
A point by point rebuttal would help.
I am not discussing the quality of research that goes on in Indian educational institutions - which anyway given the funding levels in comparison to US universities is pathetic. In terms of turning out bright young boys and girls who make it to the best universities and jobs thereon India is still right up ahead. I really mean it - take some time off to check up the faculty lists of the top 50-75 univs and watch the monotonous regularity with which Indians have been coming in getting their Ph.Ds in record time (as little as 16-18 months) and getting tenure or the pick of jobs. Since I have a number of Chinese friends I can assure you that Indians and Chinese have a good mutual admiration society going where maths and stats is concerned. It`s just that they choose to specialise in different areas - Indians are more interested in number theory and algebra, while Chinese are into automata, econometrics etc - but watch out! I shd know because I have come here after many of my relations moved in into the US during the last 15-20 years. My famiy is a fairly representative sample of the kind of superlative impact that Indians have made on the educational and technological scene out here - spanning everything from math thru, engg to management and economics. And worse still now during the last 5 years there are a number of wholly Indian teachers (ie.s Indian Ph.Ds) gaining tenure and professorship at US universities. Prof.Paulraj at Stanford is one of the notable examples. My cousin who teaches BioTEchnology at Anna University in Madras, took his Ph.D. in IISc Bangalore, worked at University of Chicago for 5 years before returning to India. Buddy the times they`re a changing!
The stats about the economic and educational success of the Indians are not mine. They are courtesy The Economist. So please join issue with them!
Of course life is hard in certain places like Germany - but not because Indians run drugs or extortion rackets. It`s because they excel! And FYI I do have a few relations in the deep South and a cousin who is married into what you would disparagingly refer to as a ``Red Neck family`` in Alabama. When the reports last came in I heard she is doing quite well thank you! I don`t have to move out of the ``confines of my MBA program`` to learn about life here. I know what it is like in different parts of the US.
As for that bit writing payroll programs etc., you should talk to the leading business writers in the US, UK and the German Economics Minister and the PM of Japan. While you think that Indians are at the low end of the table, these guys just don`t seem to get the point. They go about meeting minor pan-chewing and snuff snorting bureaucrats in Hyderabad and Bangalore pleading with them to open businesses in their respective countries or provide them with info how to get the IT revolution going!
As I said it`s OK Foxy-Sophist if you decide that the grapes are sour. But to say that there is no grape vine around the place -- Hmmm! what does one d o about that!
And once more. WHAT`S YOUR NAME? AND DON`T SAY IT IS GYMNOSOPHIST!
That`s what I call a laddu of a reply! Thanks. I shan`t bore readers pasting copies of my post and yours.
A point by point rebuttal would help.
I am not discussing the quality of research that goes on in Indian educational institutions - which anyway given the funding levels in comparison to US universities is pathetic. In terms of turning out bright young boys and girls who make it to the best universities and jobs thereon India is still right up ahead. I really mean it - take some time off to check up the faculty lists of the top 50-75 univs and watch the monotonous regularity with which Indians have been coming in getting their Ph.Ds in record time (as little as 16-18 months) and getting tenure or the pick of jobs. Since I have a number of Chinese friends I can assure you that Indians and Chinese have a good mutual admiration society going where maths and stats is concerned. It`s just that they choose to specialise in different areas - Indians are more interested in number theory and algebra, while Chinese are into automata, econometrics etc - but watch out! I shd know because I have come here after many of my relations moved in into the US during the last 15-20 years. My famiy is a fairly representative sample of the kind of superlative impact that Indians have made on the educational and technological scene out here - spanning everything from math thru, engg to management and economics. And worse still now during the last 5 years there are a number of wholly Indian teachers (ie.s Indian Ph.Ds) gaining tenure and professorship at US universities. Prof.Paulraj at Stanford is one of the notable examples. My cousin who teaches BioTEchnology at Anna University in Madras, took his Ph.D. in IISc Bangalore, worked at University of Chicago for 5 years before returning to India. Buddy the times they`re a changing!
The stats about the economic and educational success of the Indians are not mine. They are courtesy The Economist. So please join issue with them!
Of course life is hard in certain places like Germany - but not because Indians run drugs or extortion rackets. It`s because they excel! And FYI I do have a few relations in the deep South and a cousin who is married into what you would disparagingly refer to as a ``Red Neck family`` in Alabama. When the reports last came in I heard she is doing quite well thank you! I don`t have to move out of the ``confines of my MBA program`` to learn about life here. I know what it is like in different parts of the US.
As for that bit writing payroll programs etc., you should talk to the leading business writers in the US, UK and the German Economics Minister and the PM of Japan. While you think that Indians are at the low end of the table, these guys just don`t seem to get the point. They go about meeting minor pan-chewing and snuff snorting bureaucrats in Hyderabad and Bangalore pleading with them to open businesses in their respective countries or provide them with info how to get the IT revolution going!
As I said it`s OK Foxy-Sophist if you decide that the grapes are sour. But to say that there is no grape vine around the place -- Hmmm! what does one d o about that!
And once more. WHAT`S YOUR NAME? AND DON`T SAY IT IS GYMNOSOPHIST!
#48 Posted by taimurmalik on August 29, 2000 2:55:27 am
I agree with Umairr # 36.
I think we have ahd enough of this IT thinge..
I f someone is soo much worried about its current state in Pakistan than please come to Pakistan and do your part.
I know what you would say..that you are being of greater benefit by sending hard-earned foreign exchange...well...I think you are wrong!
What Pakistan needs is not an IT policy nor thousands of IT institutes churning out thousands of graduates/diploma holders with inadequate skills..
what we need is good TEACHERS...and proper institutes..India`s success can be credited to a great extent to Nehru`s IIT`s..We need those sort od institutions.
Training and educating the masses in technologies and skills that would be must in the IT industry tommorow(such as Java,XML,advanced languages and technologies such as WAP etc) and NOT simple graduate degrees from below-standard institutes which teach them things that can hardly get them anywhere.This craze of producing MCSE`s,OCP`s and CCNA`s is not gonna put Pakistan on the IT map.
YOU people out there can be MOST helpful in building a better Pakistan.There should be networks among expats and locals that help improve IT exports from the country.
Each and everyone of us can do his/her part in putting Pakistan on the path to IT excellence and eventual dominance:)
I think we have ahd enough of this IT thinge..
I f someone is soo much worried about its current state in Pakistan than please come to Pakistan and do your part.
I know what you would say..that you are being of greater benefit by sending hard-earned foreign exchange...well...I think you are wrong!
What Pakistan needs is not an IT policy nor thousands of IT institutes churning out thousands of graduates/diploma holders with inadequate skills..
what we need is good TEACHERS...and proper institutes..India`s success can be credited to a great extent to Nehru`s IIT`s..We need those sort od institutions.
Training and educating the masses in technologies and skills that would be must in the IT industry tommorow(such as Java,XML,advanced languages and technologies such as WAP etc) and NOT simple graduate degrees from below-standard institutes which teach them things that can hardly get them anywhere.This craze of producing MCSE`s,OCP`s and CCNA`s is not gonna put Pakistan on the IT map.
YOU people out there can be MOST helpful in building a better Pakistan.There should be networks among expats and locals that help improve IT exports from the country.
Each and everyone of us can do his/her part in putting Pakistan on the path to IT excellence and eventual dominance:)
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