The Ongoing IT Revolution and Security Implications for Pakistan

Dear SAC,

I do not agree with you that establishing commercial ties with India will neutralize the threat at IT level or any level. First of all if there are ever any commercial ties with India, Pakistan will loose in bilateral trade. There is not a thing in the world that Indians make and we don’t. As a matter of fact the quality of Pakistani products is far better than Indian products. There is no point in trading items that both countries make. If India were any better, e.g. at least at the level of Chinese, the trade would have made sense.

That was not a Jingoist remark. I was once involved in a study, that was being conducted by Ministry of Production, under the auspices of SAARC agreements. During that study I got a first hand opportunity to study various Indian engineering machinery and equipment; in my honest opinion they make godawful machinery. Their machine tools are way inferior than those made by Pakistan Machine Tool Factory and PECO and their machinery is no match to our Heavy Mechanical Complex and Heavy Rebuild Factory.

As far as commodity trade is concerned, the only people who benefit are bureaucrats and politicians on both sides, in particular, and Indian manufacturers in general. The manufacturing cost in India is relatively less than that in Pakistan, probably because they had a head start over us as far as infrastructure is concerned. In addition, when they market something in Pakistan they reduce their selling prices way below their manufacturing costs. The Indian manufacturers easily offset these costs by government subsidies, by reducing the quality, and the size of their domestic market also helps. In a bigger scheme of things their actions are strategically very important; because in the end, Pakistani manufacturer suffers-the traders/distributors/bureaucrats/politicians benefit no matter what.

Pakistan is currently importing 600 items from India under SAARC agreements and the resentment is Pakistani manufacturers is growing day by day.

Is there some sort of limit on software business available that both countries cannot do well simultaneously and independantly of each other? There seems to be an implication here which I donot understand at all that Indians will somehow block Pakistani achievements in the IT field. Its a bit like saying if India wins an Olympic Gold(ha!), Pakistan will have to miss out on its own medals???
So I ask, which war?
Sadhana

You make some good points, but you seem to fall into the knee-jerk India-bashing trap so typical of Pakistanis. Sort of takes the fizz out of the cola and leaves me with the same old aftertaste, leading one to think, hmmm, there they go again. Specifically...

``The powers that be in Islamabad seem (as usual) to be unaware of how this seemingly innocuous event has the potential to reduce Pakistan to be a vassal state of its arch-enemy India.``-- Yeah right, let`s use those Pakistanis to weave some more carpets for our newly built megamansions and while they`re at it, how about some soccer balls and some sweets as well. Excuse me, aren`t you already a vassal state of the benevolent Saudis?

`` Record increases in India’s defense budget as well as its defiant almost arrogant behavior in world affairs are strong indicators of its militant attitudes.`` -- You keep funding more of those psycho jehadis and expect Indians to sit around and say, hmmm, with a billion, we sure can take minor adjustments to our population. You can`t expect to stir a hornet`s nest and tiptoe away without a few stings. If your assorted governments [or whatever you call your ruling regimes] spent less arming yourselves to the teeth and provoking 4 wars, you wouldn`t be in such a sorry state.

``...the real threat comes from India’s burgeoning IT strength rather than its military might...`` ---C`mon, stop kidding yourelf. You might see India`s IT strength as a threat, but Indians don`t do everything visavis its neighbour. It`s free market and the entrepreneurs are going where the opportunities present itself.

Let me assure you and other Pakistanis, you`re pretty much the last thing on our minds. We want to progress and move forward, and you`re nothing more than a minor irritant, though one that causes nasty pains every now and then.

The bottom line; nothing ain`t going to change a bit. Your CE and his next few replacements will still harp on the Kashmir line and on the other hand, the role of the fundementalists will grow even further, and every sane Pakistani will do what one needs to survive--something a lot of Chowkwallas have done--get the hell out before it implodes under its own weight.

Sorry for being this cheerful, but till your leadership realizes the magnitude of its mess, it will be deja vu, all over again.

Cheers

The IT dominance that India has achieved on the world stage (not in terms of quantity but in terms of sheer influence) is not a result of recent initiatives. Contrary to what your correspondent believes (AND PLEASE SAC-WHAT`S YOUR NAME?-the Indian government has played a role in making this happen. The 1950s saw India invest in educational infrastructure - not just the IITs but at least a hundred other institutions - older colleges like the Colleges ofEngg. in Pune, Madras etc., and the Regional Engg. Colleges in many States (including the one in Srinagar which has produced several top-notch professors who teach in the US today), a network of research institutions. That is paying off today.

I have recently moved from India into a top-ranked business school in the US. I have several Chinese, Japanese, Korean and European classmates apart from the Americans. The awe that you command as an Indian - one from the land of IR dominance - is simply experienced to be believed. Wherever I have been - the Social Security Office, the Motor LICENSE Bureau, shopping malls - I find that being an Indian means a new respectability. The Indian presence in academia in the US is simply awesome. Of the faculty of the top 50 business schools between them - 8-10% are Indian or of Indian origin.

The Indian in the US is typically the best educated immigrant available (among the 1 million Indian Americans school dropouts are unknown, 75% hold a college degree and 55% hold graduate degrees)

Now Japan and Germany are queing up in India to woo Indian talent. But find that Indian companies already operating in these countries have picked up the best already!

In terms of competitive strategy India is trying to raise the stakes to a level where Pakistan can simply not afford to compete. As happened recently with the defence budget.

Just as the service companies vital information is nestled within India we have intrepid businessmen like Dhirubai Ambani who enjoys a private audience with Bill Clinton! Ambani`s Reliance Industries refinery - the largest greenfield refinery in the world - has securitised its receivables for the next 30 years and floated them on debt markets. Obviously the financiers who have piced up this stock will ensure that Reliance Jamnagar wil remain safe in any war by working on the US government to intervene!

So that`s the way the cookie crumbles. It would be vainglorious of Pakistan to ignore these signs especially at a time when economic indicators are turning sour. India`s GDP per capita is and GDP per capita PPP is already ahead of Pakistan`s. The Indian leahe dership at last is showing the maturity not to be PAkistan centric and is boldly taking on world opinion. Unlike in the past when every sundry Pakistan dictator would be cordially addressed by the Indian leadership, this time the BJP has cold shouldered the CEO and de facto denied him recognition. Notice that no official Indian comunique ever referes to the HEad of State of Pakistan!

The options for Pakistan are few. Get on woth the job of governance and leave this business of competition aside. It`s a lost battle, especially when the adversary is running a marathon and you have to sprint to catch up!

Excellent article. Pakistani switchover to ``Javadis``, who are fundamentalists to the core in establishing new internet order will be appreciated everywhere.

Urstruly # 1

If Pakistani goods are better than Indians, how can Indians be any threat in commercial ties to Pakistan? Let the consumers decide whether any items from India, or for that matter from China or other countries, provide better value than the domestic ones. Is that not the whole idea behind free trade? May be I am missing some thing from Pakistan`s point of view. IMHO, globalization in general and India-Pakistan trade and commercial ties in particular, will be better for our consumers and provide competition to local sheltered manufacturers.

Sadna

You have raised a valid point here. A situation of ``zero sum game`` occurs in a field of human endeavour when it reaches its limits such that it can not be further expanded. In such case, gain of one inevitably results in loss of other since the total resource pool becomes fixed. IT is a fast expanding sector, so the rules of zero sum game do not apply here. Both India and Pakistan have enough space to prosper simultaneously without hindering other`s progress.

Usually in non zero sum games, a strategy of cooperation pays off over competition. So Pakistan can certainly benefit if it decides to cooperate with India. However if Pakistan is slow to develop its resources and IT growth of the world pleateaus off then certainly it will become a zero sum game and small players will turn out to be the losers. This also applies to India. In my opinion, India and Pakistan should therefore for the betterment of their future generations, settle Kashmir issue( make LoC permanent border) and start cooperating. Or they may not decide to cooperate but simply reduce hostilities so that more funds can be diverted to educational sector.

It is obvious that the author is biased against India.

``Record increases in India’s defense budget as well as its defiant almost arrogant behavior in world affairs are strong indicators of its militant attitudes.``

The author would have made a stronger point had he provided instances of India`s ``almost arrogant`` behaviour rather than assume it to be a given - clearly reflects his prejudiced mind.

``Massive computers holding the institutional knowledge of these Goliaths are humming away silently in the air-conditioned confines of Bangalore and Hyderabad. By entrusting this information to Indians, these companies have every incentive to protect and nurture their partners in order to ensure the well-being of their information. ``

Ever heard of BCP? Business Continuity Planning. No sane company would place all its eggs in one basket or all critical information in just one location (be it India or anywhere). Being somewhat familiar with GE, Citibank and British Airways` outsourcing in India, I would say any company would have to keep a BCP site outside of the country, have hot backups etc etc. Hence the servers humming in India may not be so critical. In fact, it is the other way round. It is the Indian companies who have their servers for internet operations running in the server-farms in the US, due to better bandwidth etc.

Secondly, just because servers are running in India, does not mean Indians have sudden access to useful information...

The companies are outsourcing their operations to India only because it is cost effective to do so, akin to Reebok manufacturing its shoes in Asian countries rather than in the US.

The major ``threats`` to Pakistan, if any, of India doing well in IT when compared to Pakistan are the obvious ones:

- Contribution of IT revenues to the Indian economy, thereby boosting defence budgets...

- Better relations with the developed nations and therefore more negotiating room for India, as the developed nations realise they need Indian talent in IT to drive their economies...

- Greater concern for stability and peace in the Indian sub-continent (as it affects the developed countries` interests), therefore greater focus on Pakistan`s ``moral and diplomatic support`` to terrorists...

I would like to talk about threats to India in IT. India`s talent pool is limited and we are getting closer to the bottom of the barrel every day. NASSCOM has estimated that there will be a huge shortage (I forget the numbers) in 5 years time of IT professionals in India. Also given the fact that they are all working for FOREIGN clients who bring in more revenue, there is hardly any GOOD talent available for meeting IT needs of local Indian companies. This is critical to the development of Indian economy.

The shortage has meant increasing costs and also a decline in quality of people (scraping the bottom of the barrel). India`s big advantage so far over US companies has been cost. The day countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, China (in English), Africa etc get their act together, they will be able to quote better prices than Indian companies... This is the threat that Indian IT companies are facing. Switching IT vendors is easier than shutting down manufacturing plants in one country and setting them up in another. Already, Philipines and Mexico are the competitors to India in IT.

However, one must also say that the entry barriers are steadily rising - very few companies now outsource to vendors based on cost alone. Expertise in project management, quality, domain expertise and past experience is increasingly becoming important - and this is where Indian IT firms should score.

I pick a line from your article ``Indian contribution to the IT revolution has happened despite the Indian government.``

That is correctly and briefly the case. And being so, why can you not apply it to Pakistan also? Think about the many Silicon Valley companies where Indians and Pakistanis work together, do Netravalli, Chandrasekhar or Dham consider their Pakistani friends to be ``vassals``. I will give you dozens of more names if you so desire.

You are a loyal Pakistani, I am a loyal Indian, but has anybody stopped you from trying to do software business in any of the two countries? In both the countries, if you so desire? Please think before you write stuff like this that ``Indians want to make Pakistanis vassals``. In this day and age? Really, you need to go back to Eco-1 and understand why one country needs strong neighbours.

I think I am not entitled to say this because I am Indian, but you will forgive me because I have to: there is a great middle-class loyalty to India that ex-pat Indians seem to have which I find often missing in the Pakistani middle-class that I have met during the course of a life as a seafarer sailing with them, as a ``gulfie`` working with them and now on the InterAct at chowk.

Why do you need your Pakistani government, of any hue, to help you rent cheap computers, rent a cheap house, add a few telephone lines and ISDN link, and start?

We in India are looking at making anybody a ``vassal`` state but please face it, you are responsible for your own destiny and nobody is going to wait for you, correct?

As for the stuff about arch-enemy, get a life. We have many things to do in India instead of only looking into our neighbour`s house. Let me say it straight: the choice is up to you in Pakistan, if you want to be a friendly competitive neighbour like Canada to USA or a basket case like Mexico to USA.

Go to TIE and see if it has a solely Indian agenda?

If we try to do well, we become a threat? What are you, colonial, all over again?

Sac,
Whereas I agree that Pakistan needs a concrete IT policy rather urgently, I fail to understand your logic in invoking ``Indian threat`` to motivate Pakistanis to move in this direction. Your view of Indian IT professionals/entrepreneurs as a threat to Pakistan is also beyond me. Comparing them to Zionists is insane. Your implication that Indians will, somehow, use their IT know how for evil designs, is an attitude problem of yours.

We must learn and acquire knowledge because it is enlightening; it brings us closer to rest of the world by broadening our horizons. It is economically beneficial for us, and good for our self-esteem…. Jealousy or fear should not be the driving force behind it. This is absolutely wrong and unprofessional attitude.

As an IT professional (paki), I find your article offensive for its underlying theme. IT pros. what do you reckon?

Sac,
Whereas I agree that Pakistan needs a concrete IT policy rather urgently, I fail to understand your logic in invoking ``Indian threat`` to motivate Pakistanis to move in this direction. Your view of Indian IT professionals/entrepreneurs as a threat to Pakistan is also beyond me. Comparing them to Zionists is insane. Your implication that Indians will, somehow, use their IT know how for evil designs, is an attitude problem of yours.

We must learn and acquire knowledge because it is enlightening; it brings us closer to rest of the world by broadening our horizons. It is economically beneficial for us, and good for our self-esteem…. Jealousy or fear should not be the driving force behind it. This is absolutely wrong and unprofessional attitude.

As an IT professional (paki), I find your article offensive for its underlying theme. IT pros, what do you reckon?

This article brilliantly shows why Pakistan has failed miserably in the IT game. Keep defining your existence as a function of India and we will happily continue helping to lead your economy to the gutters.

Rsaxena #11

You Say:

“Keep defining your existence as a function of India and we will happily continue helping to lead your economy to the gutters.”

By making such statements, you only reinforcing sac’s view.

Rsaxena #11

You Say:

“Keep defining your existence as a function of India and we will happily continue helping to lead your economy to the gutters.”

By making such statements, you are only reinforcing sac’s view.

I think what the author meant by “loosing the battle to India” was the battle of influence that both countries are fighting.

Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not , this war of influence is actually very real - just look at the extraordinary lengths the Indian and Pakistani Governments are going to influence world leaders.

By being way ahead in IT a critical component of the ``connected world`` India will not only be influential directly but powerful multi nationals will have a vested interest in influencing their governments to neutralize Pakistan. These corporations might not be critically dependent on India but with a enough of time and money at stake to be bothered.

Crucial to Pakistan, India will also hold more influence than Pakistan in all of Middle East and Central Asia. The reasoning is that the majority of smaller companies located in these regions will not be able to attract IT vendors from the developed world and India is probably their best bet to get technical and managerial expertise of some standard.

What I didn`t understand was the part where Pakistan becomes a vassal state, I was quite sure Pakistan would die before bowing to India. Does the author care to explain?

Sadhana #2,

You are right, benefits from IT are not mutually exclusive, there is enough to go around. But the war of influence between India and Pakistan will have only one victor. They can stop the war altogether, but that is as likely as PCs becoming slower next year.

Vikram

Dear Sac,

You have at last put the IT revolution in a language that can propel your country men into action into action. It is a war with India, good idea. But how sad, your country men are stuck in the quick sands of hatred. It is said that if stuck in the quick sands, pi..s..ing may at times help to reduce the sink rate. That is what they are doing on the chowk.

regards

Jay.

Urstruely,

You can console yourself, if you want to,when you say Pakistan makes superior products--& then claim its not jingoism.

I`m sure there are products that Pakistan makes that are superior to India. In a free market consumers look for quality vs price. The market is the most nonprejudicial entity created by humans. If Pakistani products are good, they will be lapped up by Indian consumers & vice versa. It will also force Indian & Pakistani manufacturers to improve quality just to stay afloat.

When countries lift trade barriers, they always iron out issues like govt subsidies & dumping. There are checks & balances negotiated along the way.

If Pakistan trades with India, it will benefit Pakistan more because it gives you access to a huge & growing market. Also, if your claim about the superiority of Pakistani goods is true, it will give Pakistan a huge advantage. Besides, if either country has investments & assets in their neighobr`s, they will think twice about nuking them.

Your reasons for not trading with India are bogus excuses that protectionists make all over the world. In the end, India wont miss out that much if it does`nt trade with Pakistan. The real question you should ask yourself is--in this day & age, can Pakistan afford not to!

Ref pennathur #: 4

{The IT dominance that India has achieved on the world stage (not in terms of quantity but in terms of sheer influence) is not a result of recent initiatives. Contrary to what your correspondent believes (AND PLEASE SAC-WHAT`S YOUR NAME?-the Indian government has played a role in making this happen. The 1950s saw India invest in educational infrastructure - not just the IITs but at least a hundred other institutions - older colleges like the Colleges ofEngg. in Pune, Madras etc., and the Regional Engg. Colleges in many States (including the one in Srinagar which has produced several top-notch professors who teach in the US today), a network of research institutions. That is paying off today.}

In a recent conversation with a friend at MicroSoft (with decades of research experience at Burroughs and IBM), he expressed serious concern at the lack of research publications even from the IITs. He should know because he himself is a graduate of IIT-Bombay and is widely read. Thus, we have successfully turned our research institutions into factories making coding drones.

The first list of institutions banned from having contacts with the US after the 1998 nuclear tests included Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, Indian Institute of Science and Saha Institute of Nuclear Physics. I didn`t see a single IIT or engineering college in that. Tells you whom the US fears when it comes to defense-related research. Oh, don`t forget the computational needs of simulation of nuclear explosions or missile flight characteristics. So, I am somewhat correct in my assessment that our IITs have been reduced to turning out drones. The few with marketing skills turn out to be the founders of Silicon Valley companies. (You really don`t think that Vinod Dham designed the Pentium chip by himself, do you? Or that Guru Deshpande designs networking chips today?)

{I have recently moved from India into a top-ranked business school in the US. I have several Chinese, Japanese, Korean and European classmates apart from the Americans. The awe that you command as an Indian - one from the land of IR dominance - is simply experienced to be believed. Wherever I have been - the Social Security Office, the Motor LICENSE Bureau, shopping malls - I find that being an Indian means a new respectability. The Indian presence in academia in the US is simply awesome. Of the faculty of the top 50 business schools between them - 8-10% are Indian or of Indian origin.}

You will eat reality cookies as you leave academia and move into the real world. I suggest Montgomery, Alabama, and Jackson, Mississippi, for starters. Even Toronto. Or, London, England. Did you hear about the neo-Nazi attack on foreigners in Germany? Yout fancy MBA is not going to help you when you are attacked by skinheads in suburban London.

So long as you have a high income, stay in lily-white suburbs and commute into the cities, you are going to find life great. Wait till your kids get called names in school and come home crying.

The population of Indian scientists working in the hard sciences and engineering departments of US universities has been pretty high since the 1960s. If anybody has come far, it is the mainland Chinese who only came her in droves in the mid 1980s and they beat your pants off in abstract mathematics.

{The Indian in the US is typically the best educated immigrant available (among the 1 million Indian Americans school dropouts are unknown, 75% hold a college degree and 55% hold graduate degrees)}

And the US-raised kids of these successful people drop out. First generation Indians succeed because the cost of failure is tremendous -- you get to go back to India, you don`t collect the green card. The next generation starts looking at options other than medicine or engineering much to the dismay of their parents. Who knows what happens to the third generation?

Don`t pat yourself too hard on the back; you might break your arm.

PS. I shall save time for those who are displeased by this post. The predictable response is: here is a failure who blames the US for his failings and who is bitter. I have no intention of disclosing my persona to unknowns and shall not respond with my resume or current position.

Let us be clear what this IT revolution is all about: it is about writing yet another payroll program and changing the heading CPF (Contributory Provident Fund in India) to Social Security Deductions in the US. Oh, yeah; putting it on the web.

Don`t tell me that I trivialize issues; one of my programmers already told me that some 10 years back. I merely reduce things to irreducible minima and they turn out to be trivia.

Re: fairdinkum

``By making such statements, you are only reinforcing sac’s view.``

The key word in my post was ``helping``...India doesn`t initiate the destructive moves Pakistan makes, Pakistan does. But if you`re foolish enough to have a self-destructive existence vis-a-vis India, we ain`t gonna stop you. Example? India can get away with not signing the CTBT for a while...Pakistan really cannot afford the opportunity cost of not signing it....but India is happy to wait and watch Pakistan lose the benefits.

I was in Pakistan last month and spent some time looking into the IT scene there (visited training institutes, technology park at Islamabad, chatted with some folks involved with IT in public and private sector). I think the Indian IT boom is definitely having a beneficial affect in Pakistan - bright youth now see a channel for advancement, marketing is being developed, and the current government (unelected though it is) is providing strong leadership in strengthening the IT infrastructure. The path has pitfalls - bureaucratization (the reason the IT sector took off in India was because for a long time Indian bureaucrats had no clue on how to control it), political unrest, and so forth. In IT, when the tide rises, all boats - Indian and Pakistani as well as in other parts of the world - rise with it. We need to change some of our old habits and get new ones - moving away from competition with India to cooperation, limiting public sector role to that of an enabler rather than a player in IT, and so forth.

Uh oh, here we go again. India is the threat, blah, blah, blah by Sac stuck in his cubicle oblivious to the outside world where indians and pakistanis get along as individual humans and not as representatives of their governments. Learn to think Pakistan, Pakistan and not != India. If India were to improve her economic situation, peace is vital. No sane outside investor would be interested in war-mongering nation (unless it is a superpower and can reduce dialogs into monologs).

Why do I get the feeling that Chowk is interested in articles that provoke a strong reaction than, may be, articles of substance. This one here by my nemesis is all hot air with the usual hyperbole for effect-India is not a powerhouse on anything. It may have a greater recognition than the West in IT, but it is still one of the poorest countries in the world. The Americans know it more for the bride burnings and floods and cyclones and filmstar-kidnapping bandits than for IT. Most of the IT is ``low-wage`` body-shopping.

As Jay said (he should publish a red book if only for my sake), most internet interactions are about sex, games and getting attention. It figures..

RE RSaxena

Despite your very generous offer of helping to lead their economy to the gutters, I don`t think they`ll take us up on it. They have such homegrown talent on that front. Even the fat lady from Madras or Laloo will have a few lessons to learn from them.

Wake up guys. Why must everything you do be a us versus them affair? If you`re a country, what are your national priorities and interests vis avis the economy? You can`t define yourselves versus a neighbor. It must be what you`re for, not what you`re against.

Actually, the ``war this and war that`` mentality is more than sickening...it is self-defeating.

[``But most importantly it has been won without any help from the Indian government. Indian contribution to the IT revolution has happened despite the Indian government.``]

how can YOU say that ? if india is making strides in IT today it is because of the HUGE investments successive indian governments have made in education. education in india has all along been so subsidised that any middle class parent can afford to provide their children a professional education. Even in times of extreme economic hardships, this educational subsidy had been zealously protected by every government, despite the severe strains on the treasury.

seen all those indians that are successful today ? i`m sure EVERY ONE of them might had been a beneficiary of this subsidy at some point or other during their education. most importantly, the government has never demanded anything in return from anybody so educated. even when there are concerns about the ``brain drain``, there was not even a hush from anybody in power about forcing people to stay back.

[``Pakistan has a window of opportunity of not more than two years to get its IT strategy in place.``]

as for IT skills are concerned, you guys are no less capable. what better tetimony you need than the classic ``Brain`` computer virus?. this is perhaps the earliest PC virus and definitely it was the first one to use the `Stealth technique` to hide itself. though never confirmed, there is NO second opinion that this virus originated in Pakistan. Fondly called ``Pakistani`` or ``PakistaniBrain``, it still remains one of the widely analyzed viruses in PC history and no book on computer virus is complete without a study of ``Brain``. in fact, it became so popular among the virus writers that many started using it as a ``template`` for virus development, forcing the original creators to include a (mock ?) copyright notice on the virus itself on a subsequent version!

however, a few bright spots here and there may make you feel good, but won`t get you anywhere. you need an accessible robust education system that blends the intellectual potential with systematic knowledge which ensures a steady generation of quality skills. point is, may be you need a sound education strategy in place that drives the IT revolution rather than a vague ``IT strategy``.

Good Lord! Does everything have to be couched in terms of war? I assure you India`s exploding IT industry was not started to settle scores with Pakistan.

``How can we bring Pakistan to its knees?``

``Hmm...let us start some premier institutions and many second tier technology institutes...that`ll teach `em in a couple of decades.``

*shakes her head *

I dont want to get into an India-Pakistan match over who is better and who is not ....

I just want to congratulate Dareecha people and their energetic representative from San Jose for

promoting IT in Pakistan ....

Well done Ms Sarwari ....

-Pakistan Zindabad

-Quaid e Azam Zindabad

-Ataturk Zindabad

-Jiye Bhutto

-Imran Khan for PM

Re: Sac

An apt article!

Two years is too little! The bureaucrats and the so called elites of Pakistan will never allow it! Education, the sine qua non of an IT boom in Pakistan, is a threat to their rule and has to be denied! :)

Five to ten years tops and then the only place you can find Pakistan will be in an outdated atlas of the world!

Ciao!

RE: Ferozk#26

Et tu, Brute!

One day, a Desi IT specialist, let`s say, Gymno, finds a little frog which is telling him:``Kiss me, I am a princess``. Gymno puts him into his pocket. Having arrived at work, the frog is asking him: ``Kiss me, I am a princess``. No reaction from Gymno again. In the evening he goes to the pub and shows the frog to his friends. The frog is using that occasion and says to Gymno: ``Kiss me, I am a bewitched princess``. No reaction from him. So, his friends are asking him:``Why don`t you kiss the frog?`` Well, Gymno is saying, I have no time for a girl friend, but a talking frog is kinda cute``.

RE: ylh

You said ``I dont want to get into an India-Pakistan match over who is better and who is not ....``

Good. Let`s see if you can keep it that way!!!

JIYE IT!

INTERNET ZINDABAD!

BILL GATES FOR GOD!

An excellently written article that paints the unfortunaltely bleak picture that surrounds our approach to entering and rising in the IT field.

Lets get out there and show the world that we too have the expertise and the know-how to build an IT empire.

How we can go about that really baffles me;but somebody out there please step up and help us save our nation from ruin. Anybody please!!!

Ameer.

You have hit the spot!!!

Pakistan needs to really get going on the IT path. It has some brilliant people who are sophisticated enough to have a healthy competition with Indian IT brains.

Imagine the powerhouse if India and Pakistan could get together on leading an IT revolution in South Asia. Will we rule the world or will we rule the world!!!

Digital Divide between India and Pakistan

http://www.mcconnellinternational.com/ereadiness/EReadinessReport.htm

Many developing countries could be condemned to economic stagnation because of a lack of investment in high-technology infrastructure.

Among the countries not yet prepared to catch up with the computer revolution are China, Russia, Indonesia, Pakistan and South Africa.

India and Malaysia serve as two examples of countries that have been particularly forward-looking in the realm of information technology legislation. Both are notable for the comprehensiveness of recently enacted legal frameworks designed to create predictability about information security.

Asia’s Human Capital resources are strong. In addition to three economies rated blue, four are

amber, showing that sufficiently skilled workforces are in place to drive E-Business forward. South Korea,for example, takes pride in its “gold card” immigration policy, designed to make immigration as easy and smooth a process as possible for the recruiting of high-tech experts, particularly software engineers from India.



Despite its progress in these areas, Connectivity in Asia remains an important issue. Eight of the ten economies are red. India, for example, even with its reputation as a software powerhouse, has one of the lowest tele-densities in the world, standing currently at approximately 1.5 lines per 100 persons. PC penetration is considerably lower, at approximately 0.2 per 100.

I think that the idea of putting a so called

``right strategy`` wihin 2 years belies other

arguments made elsewhere in the article.

For example, just like Indian government has

contributed only to the extent that it provided

infra structure for education but it did not

contribute any thing towards IT itself; the same

way having any strategy made by the Pakistan

government now will be counter productive.

As suggested by the author himself, government

should be out of this picture but it should focus

on revamping the education system only.

To be honest, changing the education system is

also superficial. The whole outlook towards

education, especially science related education,

will have to be re developed.

And this job certainly needs peace at the mind

and at the borders! It also assumes approval

from jihadi parties and from other religious right

wing sectors who inadvertantly link science with

western propaganda.

I hope, for a change, this issue is not linked

with India Pakistan rut, but is linked to a

welfare of around a billion or so South Asians

who do not have access to good education. The last

thing we need is a debate on who excels in C++,

an Indian or a Pakistani!

In today`s world, educa

surely there are those who think it wouldn`t be such a bad idea if pakistan does become a vassal state of india. as long as they let us field our own cricket team. with all due respect to the horrors of war, etc., forcing wasim to open the bowling with srinath et al. would be a REAL tragedy.

``Pakistan has a window of opportunity of not more than two years to get its IT strategy in place. After that no increase in defense budget or nuclear capability can prevent the inevitable. India will have won the war without firing a single shot.``

This last paragraph seems to form the gist of your argument. I cannot agree with it. First of all, how did you come up with the timeframe of two years? Why not one year, or ten years?

Secondly, you argue that Pakistan needs to get its IT strategy in place. However, earlier you argue that the govt. needs to, ``get out of the way.`` If the key is for the govt. to completely get out of the way, then a national IT strategy is not required. All private industries in any country, work within a framework of rules and regulations that are formed by the govt.

Thirdly, you state that, ``increase in budget provisions for IT are useless.`` In my opinion, the first thing that needs to be done is to increase the IT budget. While I agree that the govt. should not get into the minute details of policy making, it definitely needs to inject money into the system. Where else is the money going to come from to set up the infrastructure? Who is going to set up colleges, and schools, lay down cable etc? In every country of the world, infrastructure is always initially set up by the govt. Govts. can hire private companies to set up the infrastructure, however the govts. have to put in the initial money. The progenitor of the Internet was ArpaNet; a US govt. Department of Defense project. I believe the UN actually defines a certain percentage of the national budget that all countries should spend on IT. So the govt. money is desperately needed. What needs to be avoided is undue beuracratic interference from the govt. The former and later are two different things.

Competition amongst countries in IT is not a win-lose scenario. It is not like a war. If one country is successful in IT, it does not necessarily mean the other country will lose out, or cease to exist. The only time that can happen is if the successful country uses the money generated from IT to bulk up its defence forces and then attack its opposition. If India does decide to adapt that policy, then it will only be Pakistan`s nuclear capability that will act as a deterrent; not the amount of progress Pakistan makes in IT.

From what I have read in the newspapers, and through conversations with friends in Pakistan, the current Pakistani govt. is doing quite a bit in IT. There is a comprehensive IT policy that has been formed, which for once, seems to make a lot of sense. Most of the members forming the policy were from the private sector. Three or four universities are being established. I think Aga Khan is being contacted to establish a university on the lines of Aga Khan Medical College. A virtual university is being planned. The Internet access rates have been reduced by over 50%, and will be reduced by another 25%. PTCL will be privatized soon. PTCL`s control of Network Access Points in Pakistan has been stopped. Voice over IP has been legalized, and PTCL will now have to compete against private companies in this area. All govt. servants will now be evaluated on IT skills. All govt. departments have been ordered to webify themselves. NCR has established Pakistan`s first datawarehouse in the form of the NADRA database. This will be like the Social Security Database in the US. Various VC funds have been contacted to provide upto $1 million dollars each for entrepreneurial projects. A few have already started doing so. All of Pakistan has been declared a tax-reduced or tax-free zone for IT. Musharraf has been willing to go to the openings of even small IT shops just to encourage IT professionals. The IT budget was increased by a phenomenal percentage (in the thousands).

Not bad for 10 months of work. I do not know how much of the above will be successful. However, as an IT person myself, I think the current govt. has the right idea.

The govt. initially contacted Safi Qureshi (I believe the only South Asian whose IT company has ever made it to the Fortune 500 list) to be the minister of S&T. He refused due to his philanthropic commitments. It then contacted Masood Jabbar, the Pakistani-American President of Sun Microsystems. He almost agreed, but later turned it down. So you cannot blame the current govt. for not trying to get top talent from the private industry. The above two can hold their own against anyone in the international IT management arena. The current minister Dr. Atta-ur-Rahman, is an internationally recognized scientist, and seems to be doing quite well.

Lets see what happens.

So, while I agree with the article on an abstract level, i.e. Pakistan needs to progress in IT, I do not agree with the reasons you have given to justify the progress. Pakistan should try to progress in IT regardless of what India is doing. Apart from self-defence, there is no need for Pakistan to relate everything to India. And the only situation under which India`s IT success could be a military threat to Pakistan is if India starts pumping its IT money into its military. I think it would be quite useless of India to do so. It would infact be to Pakistan`s advantage if India started pumping IT money into its defences forces, on not into its economic infrastructure. Pakistan has on the whole decided to freeze its conventional defence budget, and is now relying on a nuclear deterent. This in my opinion is the right way to go. With a strong nuclear deterrent in place in Pakistan, it doesn`t really make any difference how large India`s military becomes.

Rdesikan Right on! IT Zindabad (all God`s children have jobs now!!)

This article was written for a Pakistani newspaper with the intention of stimulating discussion on the topic. India was used as a convenient vehicle to provoke action, hence the ``jingoistic`` tone of the article.

As usual the holier than thou Indians have self-congratulated themselves to a GPF and the self-pitying Pakistanis don`t see a light at the end of the tunnel. veeresh in his reply #8 and some others have raised the question of why does Pakistan need to look at India for inspiration? For better or for worse being anti-India has become a necessary ingredient of Pakistani identity. This is the dilemma that faces the nation-state. As the zionist visionary Theodor Herzl pointed out so poignantly. ``A nation is a historical group of men of recongnizable cohesion,held together by a common enemy``, Pakistan needs to harness that obsession with India for its own good.

That is why instead of promoting feel-good exerises like bus-rides to Lahore, the only chance peace has is to promote economic co-operation between the two countries. The gas-pipeline from Iran passing through Pakistan to India has little chance of going through but if it does would be the sort of mutually beneficial transaction that may lead to lessening of tensions.Pakistan and India as nations will never be friends.There has been too much bad blood between the two. But maybe they can save the aggression for cricket matches and Chowk interacts only :)

Coming back to the IT debate,I am sick and tired of reading about the IITs.As far as I am concerned the kids from IITs might as well have been taught ceramic-making.They would still have done well abroad.The worst student in my engineering class back in Paksitan now holds 6 patents!!

The question of whether the government can do much to help in IT industry development is an interesting one. I agree that the government should concentrate on improving the overall education standard,law and order situation,credit and taxation policies but most importantly it should recognize the limits of its authority.A nuclear bomb or the army cannot unify an almost failed state.Pakistanis need to start believing in themselves(Are you listening ameegoes?) and their abilities. There is still time. But not much.

later

-sac

P.S: re crypto #23:

An analysis of the ``brain`` virus revealed the address of its creators in the boot-sector :) BTW the same guys run the biggest ISP in Lahore now.

P.P.S: re anamika: Maybe you and RSaxena should meet.It will be more than a meeting of the minds. You can then negotiate for a group discount for Ritalin and Prozac at the local Duane Reade.

The following response was submitted via email:


The article by sac is pure sensationalism. The idea that India`s IT revolution is a security threat to Pakistan is far fetched. The real
threat to the very existence of Pakistan is the state of it`s economy which is in shambles. The value of the rupee is sliding and the country
needs foreign exchange desperately. The government`s sudden interest in IT is due to the realization that software may be it`s only chance to increase exports and get some urgently needed foreign exchange to keep it`s head above water.
Recent research in India on the IT software success has drawn the following four conclusions: Software export is not directly related to
usage of IT in the Industrial and Commercial sectors, the setting up of IITs by the Nehru government has been instrumental in producing the
required IT manpower at the apportune time for India, the use of English as the medium of technical instruction is part of the reason for success and the management skills available to industrial houses like Tata was the catalyst in setting up software companies in India.
Pakistan can duplicate India`s success although the gap at this stage is very wide. The government`s help is required to set up top notch IT universities. sac`s contention that the state should back off would be disastrous if followed in the case of setting up these universities.
Private sector universities like LUMS,GIK and NUST charge students over Rs.2 lakhs a year. How many students can afford such fee. Pakistan needs
many more institutions like FAST in the public sector. The English language skills of our students is pathetic. These need upgrading. Well
managed industrial concerns such as ENGRO should be encouraged to start software houses. It is with steps like these that we can bring about a
change in Pakistan`s fortunes. Imagining every Indian success as a security threat to Pakistan is distorted thinking and it is time that such conspiracy theories are put to rest.

Sincerely
Hasan Masood Mirza
Islamabad

sac #37
``For better or for worse being anti-India has become a necessary ingredient of Pakistani identity. This is the dilemma that faces the nation-state.``

Leave the nation-state and Pakistani identity issue out of IT, it has no place there. It ought not to even have been present in basic matters of food, water, law and order and employment(same goes for India).

Pakistan should focus its efforts in finding the right niche of itself in the IT boom and on maximising its successes. This worthy aim does not imply the best way to do so is to make its measure of success or failure, the `overtaking` of another country with 7+ times its population.

Pankaj #6
You say India and Pakistan should resolve issues and start cooperating. Amen to that.

Vikram #14
Your post is right on the mark, thanks. You give the right perspective when you say,
``By being way ahead in IT a critical component of the ``connected world`` India will not only be influential directly but powerful multi nationals will have a vested interest in influencing their governments to neutralize Pakistan. These corporations might not be critically dependent on India but with a enough of time and money at stake to be bothered.``

Hopefully this will make sac temper his `slight paranoia` somewhat :-).

Sadhana

Umairr #36

Dear Umairr,

Thank you for taking time to write this post. I concur.

RE Sac #37

``This article was written for a Pakistani newspaper with the intention of stimulating discussion on the topic. India was used as a convenient vehicle to provoke action, hence the ``jingoistic`` tone of the article.``

You`re trying to speak from both sides of your mouth. Even if it were done for the reason of stimulating discussion, you still have couched it in terms of hatred, and then you tell us that we`ve overreacted. Give me a break.

So you`re sick of the IITs. So am I. But rather than convert this sickness into sheer hatred, why don`t you guys try to emulate the successes in your mileau.

BTW, if certain desis need lithium, the doctor`s prescription for your country could well be euthanasia.

In the meanwhile, we`ll just watch you slip and sink even further while you try to kick up some action in Kashmir.

Cheers

sac #: 37

``India was used as a convenient vehicle to provoke action, hence the ``jingoistic`` tone of the article.``

Arre bhai sac, why do you have to drag India if you want to provoke action in Pakistan. Is there no other uniting factor in your country?

`` As usual the holier than thou Indians have self-congratulated themselves to a GPF``

If you have a right to drag India in an unnecessary article, why shouldn`t Indian start congratulating themselves.

``For better or for worse being anti-India has become a necessary ingredient of Pakistani identity ... held together by a common enemy``,

Very interesting theory!! Jinnah must be turning in his grave.

``Pakistan and India as nations will never be friends.``

Yes they will never be as long as your generation is alive. You are a real sick person.

disgusted

Wasim with Srinath? Well, Srinath is, also, an infotech engineer by the way (so is Kumble) an now doesn`t that strike terror in ``sac```s heart? By the way, pseudonym is fine but can we have a brief of the person? Can somebody like ``sac`` come up to me at a real chowk wearing a shroud and displaying only his/her ``sacks`` and spout something about ``the sky is falling`` and then make like chicken little?

By the way, cricket still sux and I am really glad that cricket has removed itself from centre-stage at chowk and has been fixed well and truly once and for all . . . are you guys aware that the latest ``Amul`` advertisement lampoons Azhar and Jadeja and other ``cricketers`` and their ability to ``take``? So much for role models . . . and this is just after the copycat Sachin Tendulkar series of ads where he likes to go to a particular restaurant to eat chicken because elsewhere all he gets is ducks . . .

Cricket? Here is an idea for ``sac``: get some balls.

Earlier today a friend of mine, a recently retired CV surgeon, who is some years my senior and also from Lahore sent the following email message in response to the ``Indian Threat`` pre-occupation of many Pakistanis.



``Perhaps someday the Pakistani nation will stop obsessing about India and worry about Pakistan.

For a country which has never had an elected Prime Minister complete his/her full term, has had more coups and semi-coups than free general elections, has squandered its economic and financial capacity on the altar of personal rapacity, is on the verge of economic collapse, has virtually no civil institutions that are capable of fulfilling their mandates, is caught in a viscous cycle of sectarian violence and, the list goes on, for a country like that to worry about any body but themselves is such paranoid and delusional behaviour that if it were a guy, he would be sitting across from Kinnaird College by now (but then somebody moved the Paghal Khana and made billions of rupees in the process). Let us win the war against ourselves first and then maybe we will worry about India.

No, I am not being pessimistic but just truthful.


Mansoor``



Well said, Mansoor!! (But, boy, you use looong sentences.)

...SR

Pakistan needs IT for its own survival and
not necessarily because Indians have been successful at it.
The workplace of the future and a current sure
thing for someone who wishes to enter middle income levels both dictate that IT is it these
days.
If thousands of unemployed Pakistani
youth could have access to the IT opportunity,
Pakistan as a whole would benefit.
It is not too late to wake up!

Ras

PS: http://www.hidaya.org/

Gymnosophist #17 :

[``The first list of institutions banned from having contacts with the US after the 1998 nuclear tests included Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, Indian Institute of Science and Saha Institute of Nuclear Physics. I didn`t see a single IIT or engineering college in that. Tells you whom the US fears when it comes to defense-related research. ``]

The primary objective of IITs/RECs is to produce high calibre garduates/undergraduates - who are to form the professional backbone - and as such are focussed on that task. They are not required to be - and they are not - premier research institutions. In contrast, institutions like TIFR, IISc are established to foster research in advanced sciences and not to teach UG. These two are different categories of institutions and therefore cannot be compared against each other.

[``So, I am somewhat correct in my assessment that our IITs have been reduced to turning out drones. The few with marketing skills turn out to be the founders of Silicon Valley companies.``]

IITs haven`t been `reduced` to turn out anybody. A Mining Engineer or an Instrument Engineer produced by an IIT today is as capable for that profession as the engineers produced anytime before. IITs don`t care what their gradudates should turn out to be. Yes, there is a mass-movement of pass-outs into the IT profession, but the reasons for it are different and has nothing to do with the way IITs/RECs train their students.

[`` (You really don`t think that Vinod Dham designed the Pentium chip by himself, do you? Or that Guru Deshpande designs networking chips today?)``]

You really don`t think Bill Gates is designinig OS nowadays, do you ?.. so what the heck ? irrespective whatever they are doing today, they already have a name for themselves don`t they ? and that`s what counts. in the big picture, these guys wouldn`t be more than small steps in the direction to a national brand building.

[``Let us be clear what this IT revolution is all about: it is about writing yet another payroll program and changing the heading CPF (Contributory Provident Fund in India) to Social Security Deductions in the US. Oh, yeah; putting it on the web.``]

Does this not sound along the lines of ``Aircraft building is all about cutting aluminium and fitting nuts and bolts `` ? just because most of our `IT professionals` are involved in writing/maintaining code, it does not mean that IT `revolution` is about writing `yet another payroll program`. True, for all our boasting and self-congradulation, our supposed `achievements` in IT are NOTHING compared to the actual advances made in the field elsewhere. nevertheless, we have made a beginning that was inconceivable just a decade ago.

[``Don`t pat yourself too hard on the back; you might break your arm.``]

hmmmmm...find it very hard to disagree with this one though. we are still a very poor nation and we will be so for a long time to come... our roads are still dirty and our buses and trains are still overcrowded... our bank clerks still take 50 minutes to process a local draft and our linesmen still demand Rs50 to look into a telephone complaint... we are the same, except for the fact that even a guy from remote Bihar has an increased chance of boarding a flight to San Fransisco. No wonder then, most of us are in an euphoric mood.

Dear Gymnosophist,

That`s what I call a laddu of a reply! Thanks. I shan`t bore readers pasting copies of my post and yours.

A point by point rebuttal would help.

I am not discussing the quality of research that goes on in Indian educational institutions - which anyway given the funding levels in comparison to US universities is pathetic. In terms of turning out bright young boys and girls who make it to the best universities and jobs thereon India is still right up ahead. I really mean it - take some time off to check up the faculty lists of the top 50-75 univs and watch the monotonous regularity with which Indians have been coming in getting their Ph.Ds in record time (as little as 16-18 months) and getting tenure or the pick of jobs. Since I have a number of Chinese friends I can assure you that Indians and Chinese have a good mutual admiration society going where maths and stats is concerned. It`s just that they choose to specialise in different areas - Indians are more interested in number theory and algebra, while Chinese are into automata, econometrics etc - but watch out! I shd know because I have come here after many of my relations moved in into the US during the last 15-20 years. My famiy is a fairly representative sample of the kind of superlative impact that Indians have made on the educational and technological scene out here - spanning everything from math thru, engg to management and economics. And worse still now during the last 5 years there are a number of wholly Indian teachers (ie.s Indian Ph.Ds) gaining tenure and professorship at US universities. Prof.Paulraj at Stanford is one of the notable examples. My cousin who teaches BioTEchnology at Anna University in Madras, took his Ph.D. in IISc Bangalore, worked at University of Chicago for 5 years before returning to India. Buddy the times they`re a changing!

The stats about the economic and educational success of the Indians are not mine. They are courtesy The Economist. So please join issue with them!

Of course life is hard in certain places like Germany - but not because Indians run drugs or extortion rackets. It`s because they excel! And FYI I do have a few relations in the deep South and a cousin who is married into what you would disparagingly refer to as a ``Red Neck family`` in Alabama. When the reports last came in I heard she is doing quite well thank you! I don`t have to move out of the ``confines of my MBA program`` to learn about life here. I know what it is like in different parts of the US.

As for that bit writing payroll programs etc., you should talk to the leading business writers in the US, UK and the German Economics Minister and the PM of Japan. While you think that Indians are at the low end of the table, these guys just don`t seem to get the point. They go about meeting minor pan-chewing and snuff snorting bureaucrats in Hyderabad and Bangalore pleading with them to open businesses in their respective countries or provide them with info how to get the IT revolution going!

As I said it`s OK Foxy-Sophist if you decide that the grapes are sour. But to say that there is no grape vine around the place -- Hmmm! what does one d o about that!

And once more. WHAT`S YOUR NAME? AND DON`T SAY IT IS GYMNOSOPHIST!

I agree with Umairr # 36.

I think we have ahd enough of this IT thinge..

I f someone is soo much worried about its current state in Pakistan than please come to Pakistan and do your part.

I know what you would say..that you are being of greater benefit by sending hard-earned foreign exchange...well...I think you are wrong!

What Pakistan needs is not an IT policy nor thousands of IT institutes churning out thousands of graduates/diploma holders with inadequate skills..

what we need is good TEACHERS...and proper institutes..India`s success can be credited to a great extent to Nehru`s IIT`s..We need those sort od institutions.

Training and educating the masses in technologies and skills that would be must in the IT industry tommorow(such as Java,XML,advanced languages and technologies such as WAP etc) and NOT simple graduate degrees from below-standard institutes which teach them things that can hardly get them anywhere.This craze of producing MCSE`s,OCP`s and CCNA`s is not gonna put Pakistan on the IT map.

YOU people out there can be MOST helpful in building a better Pakistan.There should be networks among expats and locals that help improve IT exports from the country.

Each and everyone of us can do his/her part in putting Pakistan on the path to IT excellence and eventual dominance:)

and the Indians DESERVE to be Congratualted for what they have achieved in this field.

and to talk about India`s IT poweress being a threat to our existence is very nineteenth century.

``This article was written for a Pakistani newspaper with the intention of stimulating discussion on the topic. India was used as a convenient vehicle to provoke action, hence the ``jingoistic`` tone of the article.``

Alas..this is why our common man can never stand up..rather than encouraging them to lookout for the world of opportunities that await them..you journalists choose to discourage them but telling them all the scary stories and myths that this is not gonna work..that is not gonna work...this government is a loser...the IT policy is a farce..India is going to eat you up...and all the crap...

WHY CAN`T YOU PEOPLE GIVE HOPE TO THE COMMON MAN.

WHY NOT ARTICLES TELLING THEM WHAT COURSE OF ACTION TO TAKE IN ORDER TO IMPROVE THEIR SKILLS AND EVENTUALLY THEIR LIVES.

WHY NOT OUTLINE AN IT POLICY YOURSELF,IF YOU PPL THINK YOU ARE THAT SMART,AND PUBLISH IT FOR CRITICISM FROM THE PUBLIC.

(and btw. its against the spirit of our country and religion to be jealous of ANYONE`s succeess.If you don`t like them up there then go out..work harder and try to outshine them...you have all my best wishes!)

SORRY for taking up soo much space BUT couldn`t take anymore of this IT crap..showing as if we were all idiots sitting in Pakistan knowing nothing..as if now India was capable of swollowing us...as if we had NO future in the IT field..and that the Indians are the only technologically Geniouses out there...and that we should excel in IT, ONLY to neutralize the threat from India!

my my....what a whole lot of misunderstandings..on both sides of the border...Frankly speaking in this discussion I have found Indians to be the more composed and polite of the two,though they have EVERY right to be proud of their accomplishments.

and i agree veeresh...cricket suxs..

MORE POWER TO THE PEOPLE.

MORE POWER TO PAKISTAN.

Re: crypto

Please don`t encourage and excite gymno with conversations about operating systems and IT skills. This board can do without the orgasmic response it will evoke.

Regards,

RS

Re: taimurmalik

Your point about non-residents contributing to development back home is applicable to India too and is a jaded topic...but a critical one nevertheless.

It`s a vicious chicken-and-egg problem. How do you go back and do business in the corrupt, inefficient, and bureaucratic environment? But then without fresh blood and western management ideas brought by non-residents, things will never change. So which happens first?

AN EDUCATED MIND

I have been aluding to this for so long, never has come such a frank admission from an educated pakistani. Yes, an anglicised, most probably based in the west has summed the pakistani mind, to get some response from them it is important to couch any thing in a `threat from india` perspective.

Here what is important is the view of the educated, they are the one fomenting the paranoia, the hatred. These are pakistanis, post independance generation, all hell bent on passing the venom, using the new language, using the new medium.

These are the mullahs of the chowk, mullahs of the west, while thier counterparts in the madrassa are sending the jihadists to kill. It is these mullahs of the chowk, waiting for the next issue of dawn to read about the death in kashmir. It is the same editor, the same mind set that puts the death news in the front pages, they know what pakistanis want.

Thank you sac, at times truth spills out, even through the keyboard.

Taimurmalik #52

Malik Sahib! aap to aisay nah thay. Hain Ji?

Anyway, since you are out of closet now, please accept my warmest welcome. It is never too late:)

UMAIR # 36
Umair thanks for writing your post.

SAC # 37

I suggest that you stay away from Zionists and their ideology. Anything that a ``visionary`` says is not necessarily true. Common sense rules.

FerozK

Read this and eat your heart out, Dr. Kivorkian.

THE NEWS
Internet facility to be extended to 270 cities soon: Dr. Atta


ISLAMABAD: Minister for Science and Technology Dr. Atta ur Rehman has said that the Internet facility will be extended to 270 cities and villages across the county in the next two months.

He said that the Internet in Pakistan was limited to only 29 cities which had been extended to 92 cities and villages. The Minister said this work was done on an emergency basis and Internet cafes were being set up at various district post offices and petrol stations throughout he country.

sac #37:

[..... India was used as a convenient vehicle to provoke action, hence the ``jingoistic`` tone of the article...... AND .... Pakistan needs to harness that obsession with India for its own good.]

I understand where you are coming from sac, but I still strongly disagree with your approach.


taimurmalik # 49, 50, 51, & 52.

[Alas..this is why our common man can never stand up..rather than encouraging them to lookout for the world of opportunities that await them..you journalists choose to discourage them but telling them all the scary stories and myths that this is not gonna work..that is not gonna work...this government is a loser...the IT policy is a farce..India is going to eat you up...and all the crap...] and [......If you don`t like them up there then go out..work harder and try to outshine them...you have all my best wishes!]

hear -- hear! I applaud your thinking young man.

You have the right attitude. And if other young men there share your vision then there is still some hope left.

regards,

t

Jay # 55

For once, I fully agree with you.

dear sac

``After Kargil, the India of old is no more.``

whatever happened to the old india? i miss it, dammit. if we shall suddenly up and become an efficient, wholesome and forward-looking nation about to embrace success and cleanliness, i shall be most upset.

i would hesitate in laying as great store to this `infotech` as you have, but then i`m an old-fashioned newspaper man.

i point out to you the apparent failure of several `dot.coms` in my city, bombay, including indiainfo.com, run by another famous indian-american, raj koneru, whom you have forgotten to list.

i also point to you laloo yadav, who immortally said: ``yeh IT-YT kya hai?``

regards

aakar patel

taimurmalik:

``YOU people out there can be MOST helpful in building a better Pakistan.There should be networks among expats and locals that help improve IT exports from the country.``

Yes if Pakistani expatriates stop gloating on their own successes and stop engageing in the vilest forms of social inbreeding, you have a point there. If people actually intiate such networks instead of thinking about them or fantasizing. Our sense of patriotism is limited to the Pakistan Day Parades, and waving our flag, and singing the national anthem. When it gets down to the nitty gritty, we scatter like roaches under Raid attack.

Pakistanis are a KHUDGARZ QAUM, selfish self-serving people. We have to change our mentality before dreaming about national growth.

For those of us discussing what the govt should and shouldn`t do to encourage IT, please read the following article by N R Narayana Murthy. He is head of Infosys Technologies and widely respected in Indian business circles. I thought the article was quite realistic and down-to-earth.

http://www.timesofindia.com/today/26repu4.htm

India`s Silicon Valleys: Problems and prospects

Excerpt:

``What must the Government do to help India`s Software Capitals become Silicon Valleys?

``Most of the start-ups in Silicon Valley are either managed or owned by individuals of Asian descent. A large number of these people are Indians. So, one might ask why this kind of organisation is not visible in India`s Silicon Valleys. I believe that the answer to this question lies in the fact that in mixed and developing economies like India, the Government retains tremendous control over the pace of progress of the country. Unless the government implements certain policies that support our software industry, it is almost impossible for the industry to build a Silicon Valley of international standards.

``There are many initiatives that the Government needs to take up in order to aid the IT industry. These include fostering competition and enhancing the velocity of business, especially business opportunities in the public sector. The Government should also aim to bring transparency to critical decision-making processes and policy formulation. Another goal of the government should be the creation of suitable conditions for increased entrepreneurial activity. Rationalising the duty structure and liberalising rules for Internet, data and voice communication will also aid our country`s software capitals in becoming silicon valleys. The government should also try to provide an impetus to education and facilitate easier asset acquisition and listing on stock exchanges for Indian companies abroad. Finally, it should try to encourage venture capital support and create a regulatory framework that enables Indian companies to become world-class.

``What should we in the IT industry do for our silicon centres?

The awareness of the benefits of Information Technology is low in India, particularly in the Government, the public sector and the small-scale sector. In general, there is great enthusiasm about IT among potential users but they are, often, sceptical of its role in their own establishments. The onus is on us to erase such perceptions and to inspire confidence and trust in our ability to deliver quality products within budgeted cost and time. We need to work on the prices of our products and/or services as well as on providing a global quality of service. We should also try to provide up-to-date products to Indian users as well as focus our operations. All of these courses of action will, naturally, increase our business, and the resulting profits can consequently be utilised in improving our silicon centres.``

Sac #37

``This article was written for a Pakistani newspaper with the intention of stimulating discussion on the topic. India was used as a convenient vehicle to provoke action, hence the ``jingoistic`` tone of the article. ``

Peace! Here is the same olive branch that Sharif extended to Vajpayee in Lahore.

May I suggest sending the article to Frontier Post? They seem to specialize in publishing shoddy, half-baked articles.

You`re welcome.

Record number of Indians and Pakistanis are leaving India and Pakistan to immigrate to USA, UK, Australia, Japan, South Africa anywhere but the Indian subcontinent. Looks like no one wants to live in India and Pakistan.

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/aug2000-daily/28-08-2000/oped/o3.htm

re umairr #36:

PTCL is not going to be privatized anytime soon. These things usually happen when everybody else is doing it and there is only a small window of opportunity. We had that 2-3 years back when PTCL was valued at around $11 billion dollars. I doubt if we`ll even get a billion for it now. That is why the government has shelved all plans for it privatization.

I also disagree with the view expressed by some Pakistanis(and some Indians) that Pakistan needs to implement its IT plans without regard to India. Didn`t the Soviet Union have a credible nuclear deterrent? Look at them now. The worst thing we can do right now would be to turn inwards.We are not a Switzerland and we cannot afford the luxury of starting from scratch. There are 2 choices.

Either accept Indian hagemony, stop making a ruckus about Kashmir and console ourselves with victories on the cricket field. This scenario seems more likely than the other one which calls for rather difficult choices. Accept the fact that the only cooperation in the foreseeable future that we`ll have with India would be on the economic front only.Enter into mutually beneficial scenarios involving trade and commerce and a unified market. And maybe in a few decades the two countries would not need to spend the billions they are spending on defence.

And veeresh: At your age maybe all one can think about is getting a new pair of balls....thanks but no thanks :)

later

-sac

gymno #17

You are right in the sense that the current thrill and hype of an `India` brand name is not sufficient to make India a real IT power let alone knowledge power. Right now, those looking for a large % growth on investments feel they have found IT gold mines which have Indians, too working in them. The SouthEast Asia/Russian boom and accompanying hype bore some resemblance. Its up to India and Pakistan to keep their heads and capitalise(no pun intended) the most possible on real and incidental longterm benefits.

``Institutions banned``
Just an anecdote. I remember as an undergrad in a provincial college, we couldnot import just one of a fast ADC for a term project. Basically because of the MTCR/NPT-related international politics, N. Zealand can buy F-16s, but a state college in India cannot have even a single chip.

``IITs reduced to turning out drones``
Another anecdote. Back in the late 80s and early 90s at least the IITs in N. India(and medical colleges in S. India, too) turned out IAS/IPS/IES aspirant drones :-).

``failings``
If you can manage at least 2 trips to India in one year, I wish I were as successful.

``no intention of disclosing my persona to unknowns and shall not respond``
Hmm, remember it works both ways?

Sadhana

http://www.thestandard.com/article/display/0,1151,17981,00.html

Bullish on India

Re: Urstruly # 57

I will believe it when it happens!

Pakistanis are really excellent at proclaiming but pathetic at performing and implementing their aim into reality!

As long as Pakistanis are incharge of Pakistan, all bets are off!

Ciao!

RE: Ferozk #68

I will keep you posted. It is just a matter of two months-as long as we the Pakistanis are incharge of Pakistan.

Re: Urstruly # 69

Please do!

Still, what happens after CE/COAS PM leaves...will this policy survive him or the next government will reverse it?

I have feeling that this policy will be just another passing slogan and in three years time everything will be back to nor