Reflections Of Shame

Salam Feroz

It has taken you eight years to express your feelings/anguish - and I believe it`s time for you to forgive yourself ....

This article is exhibit one, why frats are haven for shallow, amoral, spoiled brats.

The girl was drunk, she passed out. She was hammered, trashed. First of all, a `gentleman` would make sure no minors were on the premises getting liquored up. Secondly, if one passed out, drunk, he would make sure she got home safely . A gentleman wouldn`t be sticking his d * * * into her, as soon as he sent her friends on a fool`s errand.

This is no isolated incident. I have seen and heard it happen every weekend, on campus. The players in the frat house, will get you drunk with free `punch` and then get into your pants, whether you like it or not. That is what fraternities are all about. Forget the `Love, Honour, blah blah` slogans they like to wrap themselves around. There isn`t a teaspoon full of it in the whole fraternity system. Just a bunch of rich brats living high on their dad`s allowance.

Ofcourse that perp should have been keyholed for what he did. I say, his d * * * should have been lobbed off with a cigar cutter. Lets see then how many of these `gentlemen` try to get on top of an unconscious corpse to simulate intercourse.

After reading Khan`s self-questioning whine-fest, I only find him deserving of a good walloping. Instead of getting a clearer, more saner perspective with time, he is getting dumber. A fine specimen indeed of the fraternity-hood.

Thakur

Quite a story Brown Sahib!

RE: FerozK

No, I am genuinely interested in your well being and HOPE that everything gets better for you.

Re: Urstruly # 43

Are you still irked at my response at the Pakistani IT hopes? :)

In two months I will be reminding your where your beloved Pakistani IT policy is presently mired in ! :)

Ciao!

I am sorry to barge in like this, but Musharraf is in New York staying at the Roosevelt hotel. While he is here it is time to send him a message.

I am prepared to organize a protest against the infamous, immoral, discriminatory, and unIslamic Blasphemy law of Pakistan. As it is Applied, it is nothing more than a political insturment used for the harrassment of minorities.

One Military dictator introduced it as law, another should get rid of it.

I urge all likeminded people who live in the N.Y area to join with me within the next 48 hours. I have already spoken up agianst the Blasphemy law in Dawn: Letters to the Editor in the past, now its time to take action.

Please e-mail me immediately to join a coordinated protest. The moment is ripe to send a msg, while the eyes of the press are focused on New York & the U.N Millenium summit. The more people that participate, the better. If necessary, i will do it alone. I will respond immediately to all e-mails received with details.

OMAR MIRZA

knotyourcupoftea@aol.com

TO Satywadi

See I am pissed off right now because you have had the nerve to pass on a judgement about my family which has documented its family History for centuries... Ali Wali Hamdani, was from the Iranian city of Hamdan and he came to Kashmir to spread Islam ...His shrine was burnt down a few years ago by the Indian Army ...

Listen, whereas there might be people amongst Indian Muslims who claim to be what they are not .. you cannot expect me to deny my family history just to conform to your views. If I had completely local blood I would tell you ... to me there is no race more noble than the Pakistani race ... but the truth is that I do have authentic Arab and Persian heritage ... not necessarily something to be proud or ashamed of..

and believe me its not how your family has its Arab or Persian heritage.

And Chowk people please PUBLISH this .

The perception of shame is everything. It is this perception that becomes a reality one day. Therefore, it is imperative that author finds a cure for his (failed) state of mind; if he doesn`t, as a result his mind may implode or explode one day under the pressure of these hard perceptions.

It is strongly recommended to the author that ``What ever you do, don`t let reality slip into your world - you will be sorely dismayed!``

Re: Temporal # 41

Community service will not get this out of my system! :) I will email you a solution soon!

Re: Scout

Regarding Greek based contacts - They are a resource for getting good jobs and there is nothing wrong with using a little personal leverage to get a good job. If I can get a job the easy way, why should I still try to it the hard way? :)

Yes, the contacts do offer an unfair advantage. There is no denying that fact. Life is unfair and if you can make it a little more fair, all the power to you! The contacts mostly only help in opening the doors for you, but what you do once you get inside is solely based on your competence levels.

Everyone can use a little help now and then! :)

Ciao!

Shandy, scout, sac:

Enough said! Please, let us turn to Feroz. He needs some cyber whipping to get this out of his system.

I suggest two hours of community service for the next four months as penance for him to be served with less than 80mg/litre of that in his blood with no, repeat no traces of THC or TGC or whatever is in that grassy weed. Feel free to second.

rgds,

t

scout:

I`ll make one last(and feeble) attempt at explaining myself and then let you have the last word.

I was never a part of any oraganized cult in my college days and it is immaterial to my views on the subject.I am simply trying to delineate the importance of belonging to groups or activities which promote a sense of belonging and purpose.If you get that out of sports or intramural contests or the hare-krishnas is entirely upto you and as I commented earlier does not necessarily involve subordinating your individuality(although ironically some people may join these groups to actually highlight their individuality!!).

My allusion to `doing better in life` related to having a support structure that helps one in ones career,recreation(sipping cocktails in the country club!!) or even emotional well-being(bachelor parties :).Let me ask you a hypothetical question.Why do you interact/write on chowk? I do it because (sometimes) I find people here who I think can be fun to hang out with.I most often do not agree with them on most subjects yet I consider myself a devout chowkie.Does that make me any less of an individual than you? I don`t think so. As far as I am concerned we belong to a chowk `clique`.You may like it or not but our personality is built up of a collection of memberships in such `cliques` at a conscious as well as subconcious level.

And you mean there is no grand conspiracy between you and slink to get me? :(......what a let down?

later

-sac

sac #37, ``people from organized cults like fraternities and sororities tend to do much better in the real world than their more nerdy counterparts.They are definitely not more intelligent.Simply better adjusted to people and their surroundings.``

Define ``do much better in the real world.``

Better in what sense? If you mean better in the sense that they have cocktails over lunch at their country clubs, then it`s a pretty superficial concept. To me, getting places through contacts and on the shoulder of your ``cults`` is getting no place at all.

A real ``someone`` is one who gets places without the help of fraternities/sororities etc. I don`t need to give you examples of such people, you know them already.

And being a part of such ``cults`` in your college experience, doesn`t mean it`s these ``cults`` that get you where you are.

People who are a part of such ``cults`` are better adjusted amongst members of the same ``cult,`` not the world necessarily.

As for your claim that:

``Both of you seem to forming a little anti-sac clique here ;)``

I didn`t sit down with slink and have a meeting about you. What she says comes from her own thought process. Same goes for me. Besides, don`t give yourself so much importance :).

Re: sac # 37

What space wastage might you be refering to ? :)

Ciao!

re slink && scout:

``he only ice i`d be interested in breaking is the fine crust that seems to have formed around your cranium and frozen it in time.``

Good one....and good luck!!

Both of you seem to forming a little anti-sac clique here ;)

What strikes me as interesting is the fact that you seem to have imbibed the western insistence on individuality to the core.I agree with you that going to school is an essentially a process of self-discovery.What you seem to be discounting is the ability to function well in group settings and activities.Being part of a `clique` is not necessarily a sign of weakness. And it does not take away ones faculties of individual thought and action.As Feroze mentioned in his post, people from organized cults like fraternities and sororities tend to do much better in the real world than their more nerdy counterparts.They are definitely not more intelligent.Simply better adjusted to people and their surroundings.

later

-sac

P.S: Feroze: Sorry for wasting space on your board. Can you please put a stop to it?

sac....`urge to pontificate`.. all the people i`m on intimate terms obviously see it coming and take evasive measures. as for breaking the ice, the only ice i`d be interested in breaking is the fine crust that seems to have formed around your cranium and frozen it in time.

misfit+wierdo=insulting in the eighties (which are gone now..say bubye)

sac #34,

So people who aren`t a part of organized cliques such as fraternities/sororities are misfits or weirdos?

What is your definition of a misfit? Here is one that I found:

``mis.fit = One who is unable to adjust to one`s environment or circumstances or is considered to be disturbingly different from others. ``

Darn! I need to go back to college and join a sorority or else I`ll be ``disturbingly different from others.`` Podunk University, here I come......

re scout #32:

``am i a weirdo? :(``

Allow me to patronize you a little my dear. You haven`t reached that exalted state...yet. For now you are in that zone politely(again) referred to as `misfit`.....enjoy it while it lasts :)

re slink #33:

``i have as much right to a seizure as the next neurotic.``

Thanks for clearing that up. May I suggest you choose someone else you are on more intimate terms with when the urge to pontificate overwhelms you again...or is it how we break the ice these days? ;)

later

-sac

sac...

politeness sholiteness, thats a term i`m completely comfortable with. as for the sudden homily spasm..i stand by it. i have as much right to a seizure as the next neurotic.

shandana

sac #31,

Am I a weirdo? :(

re slink #26:

Wow...what did i do to deserve that homily? Fortuantely there are very few cliques of one in this world. They are politely referred to as `weirdos`.

later

-sac

Re: bahmad # 24

Sorry...

There is no causal link between dating and marriage and peole have been known to get married after the first date or after many years.

As to your second question; that is hard to say. On one hand Greeks do consitute a signficant portion of the American society - from business to politics to social Hollywood types. My fraternity was Sigma Nu and some of our alums were Harrison Ford, James Dean, Lloyd Bentsen - vice presidental candidate, LaVell Edwards the coach of the BYU football team; Scott Sleighmaker owner of Tony Roma, a resturant chain and a bunch of state and federal representatives.

On the other hand, the Greeks are not the mirror to the general society. In all honesty, I would say that a more perspective based answer would be that the Greeks, due to their networking, end up in leadership positions, and are important, but I do not think that they really can influence the structure of the society. Like everyone else, they are the creatures of that society too! :)

Hope this helps!

Ciao!

Re Cherayam #

Thanks! The topic of sorority girls changing boyfriends is a fun one! I am not going to offer you a generalized answer, but each sorority house has a defining trait and depending which house your girlfriends came from would answer your question. Let me you an example. Delta Delta Delta, Tri Delts on my campus, as they were known had the best looking girls and the Tri Delt House was also a brothel and the girls would get a percentage of their house dues off depending on their ``monthly score card``. Scout would love this one, but in the fraternity we used to call our house payments/dues as ``friendship dues``.

You know that Eagles song: The Greeks want no freeks! :) I used to play that song during rush! :)

Re: Sac # 25

Networking is an important part of being a Greek and it was my Greek contacts that landed me my job with the US Congress! The sad part is that it is party image that is most closely associated with the Greeks. The Greek old boy/girl network is really helpful in getting that first job without any experience!

Re: Slink # 26

Thanks! Temporal gave me your email, but the cyber monster seems to have gobbled it...do you think that you can send it me at ferozk@hotmail.com?

For the record, I have no guilt :)

When are we seeing another article from you on the Chowk? :)

Ciao!

Re: Saira Riaz #19

“Secondly,a girl wearing a sexy mini skirt chilled every male blood and intended to enjoy all sorts of pleasure a party could offer.She was like “an open invitation”to every body,so how can you expect innocence from her,may be she invented a story for some purpose.”

Dear Saira,

Mini skirt is a very common outfit in western culture and so is an intoxicated woman wearing a mini skirt. You should rethink your above statement and your position in this matter.

I was away for a week, and pleasantly surprised to see that we are totally in a different kind of discussion, miles away from our usual Indo-Pak wars. Here is my two cents: Feroz you have answers in your own reply #12, If the guy shows a pattern of sexual promiscuity, then he probably has done it. Then you should be free of any guilt.

Just one more thing, my US university experience as graduate student is totally what Scout has mentioned in her post since PGs are generally not associated with any fraternity/sorority. However, I have couple of American girlfriends who were extremely promiscuous, changing boyfriends like outfits, although intellectually both were very deep indeed. I never could relate their otherwise depth in all the subject matters with their sexual misconduct. One of them now is a quite renowned professor in one of the good schools at upstate New York, although going through a miserable marriage life since I last heard of her. I guess, it may have something to do with this sorority life in their early ages, when fabric of moral conduct had to be woven.

Cheers

cheraym

sac...

sex, alcohol and networking make strange bedfellows. the college experience should leave you independent, more mature, and a little bit more street smart about the ways of the world. frats etc teach you to interact in a contrived environment, and not as an individual but as a member of a larger unit. isn`t half the point of leaving home to come back able to be able to face the world without it? go to college, exchange one form of bondage for another..no thanks. like scout said.. be your own clique.

saira riaz..

`` if a girl is wearing a mini-skirt`` blah blah blah.
whats wrong with you?

feroz...

bravo! a well written, sincere attempt at catharsis. in the light of later events, i can understand your being pulled back to this one disaster that seemed to herald it all. you did the right thing, of course, as for dealing with guilt....you dont have to feel guilty about this..what else is on your mind?

dear feroz:

My first impulse after reading your article was `Much ado about nothing` but then better sense prevailed.I think most of us who have gone to school here can relate at least one experience that in some away or another really examined our values and morality and all that good stuff in stern detail.I wonder if it has anything to do with entering adulthood. The same things that tend to outrage us when we are younger are now considered mere foibles of human nature.

As for some people dismissing fraternities and sororities being the work of the devil, they serve as very powerful networking tools not only in college but way beyond after that.Maybe being partners in crime(and I am speaking only metaphorically here) carries a greater bonding power than most of us realize.Getting drunk and the ensuing sexual activity is as much a part of college life as econ 101.For those events to be misconstrued by either side in certain instances is a natural outcome and you happened to be caught in the crossfire.Please don`t let the American tendency to find a culprit no matter what disturb your otherwise self-assured persona :)

later

-sac

Dear Feroz:

Without being personal, I would like to know if their is any expected link between dating and marriage. If no, I have no more question. If yes, how many years of dating is needed to know if the other dating partner is a compatible match?

Again without causing any violence to you, do you think that the sad and untimely death of your brothers is in any way linked with the way our society (including the state) is structured?

In my questions, I am not trying to be judgmental though I am just inquisitive. If you feel any discomfort in answering my questions, please neglect them.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

My advice to the author is to shed guilt for that which he bears no responsibility or for that which it is beyond his power to make amends or improvement.

The whole thing is an appalling indictment of the ``education`` system. I shudder to think of the number of people who are scarred from this one incident. Not just the author, but I`m sure many of his frat. brothers probably feel the same. Then there is the girl, the girl`s friends, whoever knows the perpetrator and may be troubled with doubts, and on and on.

One is supposed to emerge from college in healthy young adulthood, ready to take on the world, with most of one`s idealism intact, with a healthy trust in the integrity and reliability of the people around one, and a great self-confidence. Somewhere, the whole thing gets derailed instead, it seems.

How can one now be condemnatory of one who has nothing, and finds himself in a medieval madrassa teaching armed jihad, when those who are so gifted and have so much wantonly, in their desire for self-indulgence, make such a mess of things ?

---

Re: Urstruly # 18

Brilliant analysis! You really stunned me with your astute insights, but I am sorry to say that there was no trauma on ``my tender mind``! I hope you stick with your day job, because you are not even in the ball park on this one! :)

Re: Saira Riaz # 19

The primary concern was to avoid a legal problem and not to decide the fact whether a crime was committed or not. Macgupta was right when he said we were not qualified to judge if a crime was committed. The job before us was to limit our legal liabilities and once you have lived within a Greek environment you realize that truth is of secondary importance; your first responsibility is to save your own skin!

Secondly, your statements about will power/making choices is a good one, but will power and making irrevocable decisions are little bit different in reality than they are in an ideal world. Life is not fairy tale! Period! Having said that, I was amused to hear you equating me with a lack of decision making ability, because I did not marry my girlfriend. In my book, just because you date someone does not mean that you have to marry only that person. That was the most idealistic assumption I have ever heard! :)

There were many reasons for that, not to marry her, decision and none of them had to do with this incident.

Re: Shankar # 14

I am not personalizing this as much as the Chowkwallahs might be thinking. I wish Urstruly`s insight about this incident and my articles would be correct, but alas, Urstruly will have to get over his/her dismay! :)

The only part of this whole incident which concerns me, in hindsight, is not my actions during those days. It was the chain reaction which this event unleashed. This happened in May of 1992; a year later almost to the month one of our brothers committed suicide by hanging himself by his TV cables (the girl he loved did not love him as his suicide note said) and in January of the next year, 1994, another brother also committed suicide (no suicide note was found). A year later another one died from stomach cancer. They were all in their early to mid 20s and this not an age that you expect people die and in such a quick sequence.

I am not suggesting that all these incidents are related to that rape, but what I am suggesting is that those of us who lived through these events of pure hell, in emotional terms, losing friends in such a tragic manner and coping with the aftermath could never be the same person again. One had to be at the burial of C, who hanged himself with cables, and see his mom cry herself into a mind numbing stupor at losing another son to suicide. C`s elder brother also hung himself in a prison cell and to see his mother crying herself into a hysteria and knowing that there is nothing you can do to comfort her leaves a bitter feeling in you at your own sense of futility.

Now, whether I was weak or strong are moot points. This article was about an event, unrelated though it may have been, but to me it was the rolling stone, that triggered all the subsequent events that really crippled the fraternity emotionally and I was one of its victims. In many ways, the rape was the begining of the end for the House and though the House has a new generation in it and soon with the passage of time it will be just a faded memory, but to those of us who experinced it, it will always be a living memory and no passing years will dull the ache we still have over those memories.

This discussion has helped a lot, because I never really talked about it with such candor simply because it hard to explain something to a person who has not experinced it personally and I hope never does! It was the triggering of the sequence that is hard to accept. Why did it have to happen in such an order and why within such a short time?

It is not me personalizing this experience, but rather the inability of the mind to absorb the emotional impact of this whole chain of events. The rape may have been an isolated case, but it is emotionally linked to a set of emotionally handicapping experiences and that is where the angst comes from.

Having said that, I hope Urstruly is right, because his/her comments really simplifies the complex! That is where the demons come from and the question still remains unanswered: how do I answer them and with what?

I wish I knew!

Ciao!

As I said, nobody here is competent to decide whether rape has happened or not.

If I go by the guidelines published in the newspaper article that I provided the URL for,

Quote

Legally, in a court of law, no means no; a drunken yes means no; silence means no. Being forced to perform a sexual act or any penetration by any object into any vaginal, anal or oral opening is sexual assault.

End quote.

Notice that ``a drunken yes means no``.

So, going by the newspaper rather than all you experts here, the girl was raped, a crime was committed.

-arun gupta

The following from the local newspaper here may help put the comments of those who wrote -- who knows, maybe she was asking for it ? -- in proper perspective.

http://www.injersey.com/news/app/story/0,2110,289763,00.html

F R Khan,

It was an interesting article.First of all I would like to say that one should have strong decision power, when you take a decision,you should stand firm on it and then prepare yourself to bear all its fruits and forget about the world.

After having expelled the boy,how could you expect the same good behaviour from your brothers because in their eyes you were not loyal whereas” loyalty” does not only mean to stand by your brother even if he is doing wrong.Infact you did so because you did not like to spoil the reputation of a big lot just for one boy and also avoided legal action.Secondly,a girl wearing a sexy mini skirt chilled every male blood and intended to enjoy all sorts of pleasure a party could offer.She was like “an open invitation”to every body,so how can you expect innocence from her,may be she invented a story for some purpose.Thirdly,you were not sure whether the boy committed rape or not, don’t you think that you could give him a chance by forgiving him ?.Do you feel shame for taking action against the boy or not marrying the girl you dated for 4 years?.This also proves your weak power of decision.

In the end I would say that it is useless to regret when the situation is over because you cannot go back in your past, nurturing guilt over a period of time is of no good use.It is good to listen to the voice of conscience but not to an extent that it haunts you like a ghost and makes you restless from time to time.

“DOG BITES A MAN”

It is quite obvious, after reading this article, that the events described in it have left a traumatic impression on author’s tender mind. This trauma manifests itself by frequently compelling author to torture his readers by writing behemoth theses and attenuated articles. I concur with one reader’s advice that he should seek professional counseling (not for his sake but for us).

The news that author intends to deliver through this article is actually a no news. I did not understand the title “Reflections of Shame”. As a matter of fact, one of the titles, “Just another day”, “Reflections of a day”, or “Reflections of us”, should have been more appropriate. I still do not understand why author is feeling ashamed of the events; though that was the “logical” outcome of “academic” environment set up at the fraternities. The real shame would have been if a girl (boy) escaped from that environment without getting raped or without having alcoholic (I mean consensual) sex. So I think this angle should come as consolation to the author. The situation last described would have been a news item.

“MAN BITES A DOG”


I have no comments on the comment “Conduct unbecoming a gentleman and a lack of moral turpitude.”, in the article.

ylh #6 ``Fraternities and Sororities are an integral part of the American college experience both for the people who are in them and who are not ...``

Who gives a hoot about such American college experience? What do you leave college with? Messed up memories of parties, alcohol, crazed frat. brothers, size 2 sorority sisters, and sex? Don`t belittle college education like that.

For me, the most integral part of my American college experience was meeting people of different countries, different backgrounds, taking part in community service, taking part in cultural events, partaking in research, and working.

Being a part of college fraternities and sororities is mostly to fulfill the desire to be a part of a clique, which gives students free access keys to the shady aspect of the college experience.

Be your own clique, set your own standards, do your own thing. That`s what I believe.

One more thing, I do not think that any frat. executive council is competent to determine whether a crime has been committed or not.

-arun gupta

Since such a question was asked in another article on chowk, I think it legitimate to ask the question -- what if the girl who alleged rape was your daughter, what would you do ?

-arun gupta

Feroze,

{{Yaar, I am guilty about the fact that there is nothing to be proud over this episode!}}

Agreed! Yaar, the problem with you is that youre too NICE a guy:)

Its one thing to feel bad about this shameless act. But this guilt is EATING at you, to the point where you did`nt go to the graduating ceremony & it keeps haunting you till this day!

You worked hard to get that degree & you deserve to graduate along with all the allocades that come with it.

Its not that you actually observed the rape & did nothing to prevent it. You found out about it AFTER THE FACT. When you did, you acted with your conscience & supported the expulsion. You were part of the frat commission that investigated the matter & came to a majority consensus to act on the incident. I would consider you ABSOLVED!

Let me give you an analogy: should the guilt of what happened in Bangladesh EAT at Hamdoor Rehman (?sp)?. We humans should feel bad about what happened in Bangladesh (or in any tragic event). But to PERSONALISE that guilt is going too far, IMHO.

So, rest easy, my friend. This world needs more people like you.

Feroz,

udum? i think you really do need some counciling :)

Re: Fairudum # 10

Thanks, but I think that Pullu was closer to the truth! I am ok! If I ever did a pro helping me, it will be for working for the Republicans! :)

Fuzair:

High school girls getting free beer and offering blow jobs was a common occurance! One brother would cruise the high schools picking up girls and bring them to the parties! There were enough thinking brothers who would stop this behavior before it could be problematic.

Also, I agree with you that it hard to define consent. As to the truth to the allegation, I personally believe that he did force himself on her, because in the past I had to warn him about bringing girls to the party and then making a scene to get them in when other brothers would refuse them from entering the party. That is the reason why I did not wish to meet the girl, because I knew that if I did, there would be no doubts in my mind as to the fact that he really raped her.

If he could beat his girlfriend, I would not put raping a girl past him.

Ciao!

I was a boarder at the KAs for a while and was asked if I wanted to pledge but, in the end, decided not to. My decision was partly based on an incident somewhat similar to the one Feroz describes except that here the girls were high school juniors/seniors. This one had a happy ending in that the drunk girl was removed from the boy`s room (9/10ths drunk, staggering, vomiting and screaming abuse at the top of her lungs) before she could have sex with the almost equally drunk but less abusive frat brother. Someone had informed the president of the frat that HS girls had been sneaked into the party and that they were getting royally drunk. Our (their) president was actually a very decent chap and he and the frat`s RA and their girlfriends rounded up the girls (had to toss the really drunk one in the shower--ice cold water--to try to sober her up and was some of the vomit off her) and then drove them (presumably) home.

The funny thing here was that the girl in question who was ``rescued`` did not want to be rescued. She and her friends had come to the party to get free booze and to get laid and the abuse was at the frat president for spoiling her fun. The offending brother was read the riot act, as was the brother responsible for sneaking the girls in. Now, the girls in question certainly knew what they were doing and why they were at the party. The frat`s president decided that he was not going to destroy the frat simply because some of the brothers thought with parts of their body other than their brains. As it turns out, he did the right thing because he was called in to the office of Residential Education and informed in no uncertain terms that if HS girls ever got in to one of their parties again, that was it for the frat. How ResEd found out about it, we still don`t know. The RA almost lost his job for not preventing/reporting it. What saved him was that he did prevent `date rape` (or would it be statutory rape here?) from taking place. I don`t know how many hours of community service nonsense the frat was assigned as penance and what other nonsense they had to do to placate ResEd.

My point here is that sometimes it is a legitimate question to ask, ``What was a nice girl doing in a place like that at that time?`` Rape is never justified under any circumstances but sometimes the circumstances are so unclear that the question can legitimately be asked, ``Was it rape?``

Did the alleged rapist think it was consensual? From what Feroz writes, he probably did take advantage of her. However, if there was kissing and foreplay, then presumably it was consensual. I don`t know what nonconsensual foreplay is: sexual assault? Did she do nothing that he could construe as a sign of her consent? Did she then at the last moment decide against sex? At what point is it too late to say no? Is it ever too late to say no? Did she after she sobered up at her sorority decide she really did not want to have sex with that particular person?

I am not sure which school it was (Brown perhaps?) but for a while it had as a part of its official date rape policy that if AFTER THE FACT the girl decided that she did not really want to have sex after all, it is still date-rape. Attitudes like this trivialize what is a serious problem. I think it was Oberlin that came up with the almost equally asinine ``ask formal permission at every stage`` policy. So, the boy would have to ask the girl, ``may I kiss you?`` ``May I remove your bra?`` ``May I remove your panties?`` And so on. After a year or two, even that bastion of PC decided that such a policy was not workable.

We could of course ban all parties, all alcohol, all coed schools, and live happily ever after. Wait, isn`t that what we have in Saudi? Has that solved all such problems? So, grow up and take responsibility for your own actions.

Feroz,

How about some counciling?...and I am not joking, btw. it might help.. or am i being stupid here? i know that writing this piece is a similar exercise, but professional counciling could be more therapeutic/healing?

feroz, most of us have had or will have experinces which sometimes are difficult to reconcile with on your own.......i don`t see any point in commenting on the story or in asking probing questions on the incident itself....

take care!

cheers,
fairdinkum

Feroz:

A well packed emotional stuff, though I see no reason for ur guilt. But this in itself is a wonderful quality, to look back in introspection

and try to find answers. Though most of the times, amidst most tangled circumstances, answers are elusive.

The sense of guilt can be very painful, when the only person who can provide answers is YOU and you don`t have any. I guess everybody has his

share of incidents and issues where he has taken decisions, or acted in a manner, which in later reflection thru a much matured lens, appears a shameful and disgusting act.

It is an important part of Life: Introspection.

We should not stop reflecting on any of our actions; brave it; but keep an indifferent distance. :)

Pullu

Re: Temporal # 1

Temporal, for your info, there is no insurance company in the US who will carry a greek house, because of the risks involved. That year, we were without insurance coverage, because I remember the guys bitching about the increase in their house payments. The idea was not to sweep it under the rug, but to make it go away!

No proof was needed, because we were more interested in damage control than in proving the girl wrong and were more interested in a compromise solution and settle this mess out of court. One of our former brothers, an attorney, adviced us to settle this out of court and told the national headquarters in Virgina.

No, the girl was judged by her own sisters and yes, we did hear the T`s version of the events. The sad thing is that where the incident took place was a room in the basement and it was a tradition that who ever was getting laid in that room, would tell others so that they could see the sexual acts being performed from outside the window! That day, there was no one outside the window and no way to tell if the girl said no!

At that point in time, the entire school administration was against us and wanted to expel the greeks from campus and we had to act to save the house! We were operating under the worst case scenrio and that meant limited liablity!

Also, T never used to wear a condom and that is why were afraid that a rape examination would reveal recent sexual activity and wanted to settle out of court ASAP!

Shankar # 3

Yaar, I am guilty about the fact that there is nothing to be proud over this episode!

Satavaydi # 4

Thanks!

Scout:

Alcohol is not the problem! The real problem is that most people do not know their limits.

Feroze,

If your shame is over a criminal act like that happening in your association, then it`s justified. To a degree.. it was a long time ago, and it was in no way your fault.

If your shame is over expelling that person, then that depends upon whether you feel he was gulity or not.. I wasn`t clear on that, but I got the impression that you believed he was (I may have to reread the article.. which may make this my most pointless Interact yet!). If so, then don`t feel shame on `betraying` a comrade... indeed, who exactly betrayed who`s trust? I think the betrayal was on his part, not yours. Duty and loyalty do not mean standing idly by when your comrade has done something hideously wrong.. indeed, you would not have been standing by, but actively protecting him, had you done anything else!

Scout

Fraternities and Sororities are an integral part of the American college experience both for the people who are in them and who are not ...

Fraternities rule!

Pi Sigma Alpha

Wouldn`t all doubts be eliminated if alcohol was eliminated from this story?

The girl was obviously drunk, and in such a state, one doesn`t really remember clearly. How do we know she said No? They were both under the influence of alcohol I presume? And as you described it, wasn`t the purpose of these frat parties to get ``hooked`` up? Did she come there to have an intellectual chat about literature with a fraternity brother? I think not.

Was the guy sober? If he was, he took advantage of her, and in no way whatsover, should you feel guilty about your decision.

And if they were both drunk, the girl is just as much to blame as the guy.

I`ve said this before and I`ll say it again, ALCOHOL IS THE PRIMARY REASON WHY SUCH SAD EVENTS LIKE THESE OCCUR. Alcohol adds a big question mark to criminal allegations.

scout

ps: I personally believe fraternities and sororities are just an excuse for orgies and drunken parties with peer support. Seldom have I seen them doing anything productive or good for society. Some try to, but in the long run, it`s just a big college wild party.

A very disturbing article. I had always heard of all the things going on in fraternity and sorority parties, but was never sure how much was factual and how much fictional. Now I know.

With such sordid things going on, doesnt matter even if its only consensual ultra-casual sex, I am glad that I was never a member of any such group.

Call me old-fashioned if you will, specially at my age, but this idea of HSUI (Having Sex Under Influence of Alcohol), sounds repelling. Though I am all for sexual choice, and a personal definition of morality, this one night, ultra casual sex with anyone just physically complementary; is simply something I cannot accept.

Is this sexual liberation? Maybe in the definiton of people indulging in this. Not in mine though.

Reprehensible, cheap and disgusting; is what I will call the behavior of all involved in such things. If its a rape its only worse. Ironically, the fraternity officers expelled the offender on the grounds of ``moral turpitude``. Supposedly, with their ultra-casual `consensual` (doubt how consensual it is with a Blood Alcohol Content (BAC) of 0.5) sexual habits, the officers are all paragons of virtue.

I think most people on Chowk are of the liberated kind. So I am expecting a few brickbats. Lets see.

As and end note, I do appreciate Feroz`s honesty and truthfulness and I think he did the right thing.

Satyavadi

FR Khan

Very moving piece indeed.

{{Though I do not like to admit it, I know that when we expelled him, he was counting on our fraternal bonds of loyalty and honor to come to his aid. If I were true to my oath, when I joined the fraternity, I would have stood by his side.}}

I`m not sure what youre feeling guilty about? Your conscience has made an unwritten oath to God that you will oppose anybody, friend or foe, if that person commits a sin. I think that supercedes the oath you took to the fraternity.

If youre in a damned if you do, or damned if you do`nt situation, listen to your conscience. If you cant please anybody, at least please yourself. After all, a right decision is not always a popular decision.

I do not remember what the laws in 1992 were; and legal age for permitting drinking varies from state to state.

I think the fraternity was acting illegally in serving alcohol to minors (the rape victim is mentioned to be a minor). The ``Animal House`` image of fraternities is well justified if they persist in behaving as though, wink, wink, the laws do not apply to them.

In any case, providing the means to get drunk and then taking advantage of somebody`s being drunk is shameful in of itself.

In the above two, the whole fraternity hold responsibility, not just the one individual.

In face of this, being ``loyal`` to your fraternity member is like the misplaced ``loyalty`` within gangs. The correct action for the author would have been to resign from the fraternity, not for sacrificing one member to cover the culpability of all, but out of disgust for their behavior.

-arun gupta

Feroz:

There are a few things not very clear.

1: Why would the National Headquarters order you to expel the ‘alleged’ rapist.

2: Did they have solid proof or irrefutable evidence.

3: And if so why did they not pass it on to you?

4: Or, was cover-up and sweeping it under the rug their sole motive?

5: In your deliberations, why was the girl herself and the alleged rapist not brought before you so that your peers or a jury can question and decide for yourselves what may have transpired?


As you say this is still affecting you after all these years. I don’t think it should. First, you were a marginal player --- a minor executioner --- who had to carry out procedures and unpleasant duties. You must not let that leave a scar on your psyche after all these years.

As for the serious issues you have raised -- viz. No Means No! and one of its incarnation -- date rape -- all sane persons would be on the same side.

But this debate gets over heated at times because of perspective and conjectures.

When was the firm indication delivered? Much prior to, prior to, during the ‘foreplay’ during the act or as an after thought. Intoxicants complicate the matter no bounds. What were the intoxicants involved, how ‘affected’ the participant/s were. If you are intoxicated enough not to be allowed to drive ---that means not allowed to make driving decisions that advertently may affect other drivers or pedestrian`s life, can you make clear, concise decisions that may affect someone’s life under similar state of inebriation?

Enough.... let us see what others have to say.

regards,

t