Reflections Of Shame

“DOG BITES A MAN”

It is quite obvious, after reading this article, that the events described in it have left a traumatic impression on author’s tender mind. This trauma manifests itself by frequently compelling author to torture his readers by writing behemoth theses and attenuated articles. I concur with one reader’s advice that he should seek professional counseling (not for his sake but for us).

The news that author intends to deliver through this article is actually a no news. I did not understand the title “Reflections of Shame”. As a matter of fact, one of the titles, “Just another day”, “Reflections of a day”, or “Reflections of us”, should have been more appropriate. I still do not understand why author is feeling ashamed of the events; though that was the “logical” outcome of “academic” environment set up at the fraternities. The real shame would have been if a girl (boy) escaped from that environment without getting raped or without having alcoholic (I mean consensual) sex. So I think this angle should come as consolation to the author. The situation last described would have been a news item.

“MAN BITES A DOG”


I have no comments on the comment “Conduct unbecoming a gentleman and a lack of moral turpitude.”, in the article.

ylh #6 ``Fraternities and Sororities are an integral part of the American college experience both for the people who are in them and who are not ...``

Who gives a hoot about such American college experience? What do you leave college with? Messed up memories of parties, alcohol, crazed frat. brothers, size 2 sorority sisters, and sex? Don`t belittle college education like that.

For me, the most integral part of my American college experience was meeting people of different countries, different backgrounds, taking part in community service, taking part in cultural events, partaking in research, and working.

Being a part of college fraternities and sororities is mostly to fulfill the desire to be a part of a clique, which gives students free access keys to the shady aspect of the college experience.

Be your own clique, set your own standards, do your own thing. That`s what I believe.

One more thing, I do not think that any frat. executive council is competent to determine whether a crime has been committed or not.

-arun gupta

Since such a question was asked in another article on chowk, I think it legitimate to ask the question -- what if the girl who alleged rape was your daughter, what would you do ?

-arun gupta

Feroze,

{{Yaar, I am guilty about the fact that there is nothing to be proud over this episode!}}

Agreed! Yaar, the problem with you is that youre too NICE a guy:)

Its one thing to feel bad about this shameless act. But this guilt is EATING at you, to the point where you did`nt go to the graduating ceremony & it keeps haunting you till this day!

You worked hard to get that degree & you deserve to graduate along with all the allocades that come with it.

Its not that you actually observed the rape & did nothing to prevent it. You found out about it AFTER THE FACT. When you did, you acted with your conscience & supported the expulsion. You were part of the frat commission that investigated the matter & came to a majority consensus to act on the incident. I would consider you ABSOLVED!

Let me give you an analogy: should the guilt of what happened in Bangladesh EAT at Hamdoor Rehman (?sp)?. We humans should feel bad about what happened in Bangladesh (or in any tragic event). But to PERSONALISE that guilt is going too far, IMHO.

So, rest easy, my friend. This world needs more people like you.

Feroz,

udum? i think you really do need some counciling :)

Re: Fairudum # 10

Thanks, but I think that Pullu was closer to the truth! I am ok! If I ever did a pro helping me, it will be for working for the Republicans! :)

Fuzair:

High school girls getting free beer and offering blow jobs was a common occurance! One brother would cruise the high schools picking up girls and bring them to the parties! There were enough thinking brothers who would stop this behavior before it could be problematic.

Also, I agree with you that it hard to define consent. As to the truth to the allegation, I personally believe that he did force himself on her, because in the past I had to warn him about bringing girls to the party and then making a scene to get them in when other brothers would refuse them from entering the party. That is the reason why I did not wish to meet the girl, because I knew that if I did, there would be no doubts in my mind as to the fact that he really raped her.

If he could beat his girlfriend, I would not put raping a girl past him.

Ciao!

I was a boarder at the KAs for a while and was asked if I wanted to pledge but, in the end, decided not to. My decision was partly based on an incident somewhat similar to the one Feroz describes except that here the girls were high school juniors/seniors. This one had a happy ending in that the drunk girl was removed from the boy`s room (9/10ths drunk, staggering, vomiting and screaming abuse at the top of her lungs) before she could have sex with the almost equally drunk but less abusive frat brother. Someone had informed the president of the frat that HS girls had been sneaked into the party and that they were getting royally drunk. Our (their) president was actually a very decent chap and he and the frat`s RA and their girlfriends rounded up the girls (had to toss the really drunk one in the shower--ice cold water--to try to sober her up and was some of the vomit off her) and then drove them (presumably) home.

The funny thing here was that the girl in question who was ``rescued`` did not want to be rescued. She and her friends had come to the party to get free booze and to get laid and the abuse was at the frat president for spoiling her fun. The offending brother was read the riot act, as was the brother responsible for sneaking the girls in. Now, the girls in question certainly knew what they were doing and why they were at the party. The frat`s president decided that he was not going to destroy the frat simply because some of the brothers thought with parts of their body other than their brains. As it turns out, he did the right thing because he was called in to the office of Residential Education and informed in no uncertain terms that if HS girls ever got in to one of their parties again, that was it for the frat. How ResEd found out about it, we still don`t know. The RA almost lost his job for not preventing/reporting it. What saved him was that he did prevent `date rape` (or would it be statutory rape here?) from taking place. I don`t know how many hours of community service nonsense the frat was assigned as penance and what other nonsense they had to do to placate ResEd.

My point here is that sometimes it is a legitimate question to ask, ``What was a nice girl doing in a place like that at that time?`` Rape is never justified under any circumstances but sometimes the circumstances are so unclear that the question can legitimately be asked, ``Was it rape?``

Did the alleged rapist think it was consensual? From what Feroz writes, he probably did take advantage of her. However, if there was kissing and foreplay, then presumably it was consensual. I don`t know what nonconsensual foreplay is: sexual assault? Did she do nothing that he could construe as a sign of her consent? Did she then at the last moment decide against sex? At what point is it too late to say no? Is it ever too late to say no? Did she after she sobered up at her sorority decide she really did not want to have sex with that particular person?

I am not sure which school it was (Brown perhaps?) but for a while it had as a part of its official date rape policy that if AFTER THE FACT the girl decided that she did not really want to have sex after all, it is still date-rape. Attitudes like this trivialize what is a serious problem. I think it was Oberlin that came up with the almost equally asinine ``ask formal permission at every stage`` policy. So, the boy would have to ask the girl, ``may I kiss you?`` ``May I remove your bra?`` ``May I remove your panties?`` And so on. After a year or two, even that bastion of PC decided that such a policy was not workable.

We could of course ban all parties, all alcohol, all coed schools, and live happily ever after. Wait, isn`t that what we have in Saudi? Has that solved all such problems? So, grow up and take responsibility for your own actions.

Feroz,

How about some counciling?...and I am not joking, btw. it might help.. or am i being stupid here? i know that writing this piece is a similar exercise, but professional counciling could be more therapeutic/healing?

feroz, most of us have had or will have experinces which sometimes are difficult to reconcile with on your own.......i don`t see any point in commenting on the story or in asking probing questions on the incident itself....

take care!

cheers,
fairdinkum

Feroz:

A well packed emotional stuff, though I see no reason for ur guilt. But this in itself is a wonderful quality, to look back in introspection

and try to find answers. Though most of the times, amidst most tangled circumstances, answers are elusive.

The sense of guilt can be very painful, when the only person who can provide answers is YOU and you don`t have any. I guess everybody has his

share of incidents and issues where he has taken decisions, or acted in a manner, which in later reflection thru a much matured lens, appears a shameful and disgusting act.

It is an important part of Life: Introspection.

We should not stop reflecting on any of our actions; brave it; but keep an indifferent distance. :)

Pullu

Re: Temporal # 1

Temporal, for your info, there is no insurance company in the US who will carry a greek house, because of the risks involved. That year, we were without insurance coverage, because I remember the guys bitching about the increase in their house payments. The idea was not to sweep it under the rug, but to make it go away!

No proof was needed, because we were more interested in damage control than in proving the girl wrong and were more interested in a compromise solution and settle this mess out of court. One of our former brothers, an attorney, adviced us to settle this out of court and told the national headquarters in Virgina.

No, the girl was judged by her own sisters and yes, we did hear the T`s version of the events. The sad thing is that where the incident took place was a room in the basement and it was a tradition that who ever was getting laid in that room, would tell others so that they could see the sexual acts being performed from outside the window! That day, there was no one outside the window and no way to tell if the girl said no!

At that point in time, the entire school administration was against us and wanted to expel the greeks from campus and we had to act to save the house! We were operating under the worst case scenrio and that meant limited liablity!

Also, T never used to wear a condom and that is why were afraid that a rape examination would reveal recent sexual activity and wanted to settle out of court ASAP!

Shankar # 3

Yaar, I am guilty about the fact that there is nothing to be proud over this episode!

Satavaydi # 4

Thanks!

Scout:

Alcohol is not the problem! The real problem is that most people do not know their limits.

Feroze,

If your shame is over a criminal act like that happening in your association, then it`s justified. To a degree.. it was a long time ago, and it was in no way your fault.

If your shame is over expelling that person, then that depends upon whether you feel he was gulity or not.. I wasn`t clear on that, but I got the impression that you believed he was (I may have to reread the article.. which may make this my most pointless Interact yet!). If so, then don`t feel shame on `betraying` a comrade... indeed, who exactly betrayed who`s trust? I think the betrayal was on his part, not yours. Duty and loyalty do not mean standing idly by when your comrade has done something hideously wrong.. indeed, you would not have been standing by, but actively protecting him, had you done anything else!

Scout

Fraternities and Sororities are an integral part of the American college experience both for the people who are in them and who are not ...

Fraternities rule!

Pi Sigma Alpha

Wouldn`t all doubts be eliminated if alcohol was eliminated from this story?

The girl was obviously drunk, and in such a state, one doesn`t really remember clearly. How do we know she said No? They were both under the influence of alcohol I presume? And as you described it, wasn`t the purpose of these frat parties to get ``hooked`` up? Did she come there to have an intellectual chat about literature with a fraternity brother? I think not.

Was the guy sober? If he was, he took advantage of her, and in no way whatsover, should you feel guilty about your decision.

And if they were both drunk, the girl is just as much to blame as the guy.

I`ve said this before and I`ll say it again, ALCOHOL IS THE PRIMARY REASON WHY SUCH SAD EVENTS LIKE THESE OCCUR. Alcohol adds a big question mark to criminal allegations.

scout

ps: I personally believe fraternities and sororities are just an excuse for orgies and drunken parties with peer support. Seldom have I seen them doing anything productive or good for society. Some try to, but in the long run, it`s just a big college wild party.

A very disturbing article. I had always heard of all the things going on in fraternity and sorority parties, but was never sure how much was factual and how much fictional. Now I know.

With such sordid things going on, doesnt matter even if its only consensual ultra-casual sex, I am glad that I was never a member of any such group.

Call me old-fashioned if you will, specially at my age, but this idea of HSUI (Having Sex Under Influence of Alcohol), sounds repelling. Though I am all for sexual choice, and a personal definition of morality, this one night, ultra casual sex with anyone just physically complementary; is simply something I cannot accept.

Is this sexual liberation? Maybe in the definiton of people indulging in this. Not in mine though.

Reprehensible, cheap and disgusting; is what I will call the behavior of all involved in such things. If its a rape its only worse. Ironically, the fraternity officers expelled the offender on the grounds of ``moral turpitude``. Supposedly, with their ultra-casual `consensual` (doubt how consensual it is with a Blood Alcohol Content (BAC) of 0.5) sexual habits, the officers are all paragons of virtue.

I think most people on Chowk are of the liberated kind. So I am expecting a few brickbats. Lets see.

As and end note, I do appreciate Feroz`s honesty and truthfulness and I think he did the right thing.

Satyavadi

FR Khan

Very moving piece indeed.

{{Though I do not like to admit it, I know that when we expelled him, he was counting on our fraternal bonds of loyalty and honor to come to his aid. If I were true to my oath, when I joined the fraternity, I would have stood by his side.}}

I`m not sure what youre feeling guilty about? Your conscience has made an unwritten oath to God that you will oppose anybody, friend or foe, if that person commits a sin. I think that supercedes the oath you took to the fraternity.

If youre in a damned if you do, or damned if you do`nt situation, listen to your conscience. If you cant please anybody, at least please yourself. After all, a right decision is not always a popular decision.