Would Devolution Empower “We the People”?

YLH:

In my first post I specifically requested you to not take it personally. It wasn`t a personal comment. And as for your family history, you had posted it before on Chowk and I was well aware of it. No thanks for posting it again.

As for my Arab or Persian blood, I dont have any. Thank you.

I would have answered some of your points, had it not been for Bilal`s request. Lets leave it for sometime later.

Krashid:

``Atleast you do(stink).``

I will take it as a compliment from someone, who only very recently called Hindus (or Indians, I forget) badbudar janwars.

Thank you.

Satyavadi

Chowk guys post this please. This is my last on this matter.

Dear bahmad,
I salute your patience and salute your replies.
Sadhana

shammi #107 You pick up on two points that I believe touch at the root of our problems: fear of India. Rather than sweeping these issues under the rug, we should confront them. And a referendum is about the best way I can think of for bringing these issues in the open and resolving them. Specifically:

First, you write that ``if religion as a public/personal matter is put to a test, then a question that immediately arises is `why even have a Pakistan?

In response, I think, we may have needed a justification for Pakistan in 1947, but we dont need one today. National boundries everywhere are based on historical accident, not logic. For example, there is even less ``justification`` for many Latin American, African, Arab countries, US/Canada to be separate states than Pakistan.

Second, you write that ``in Pakistan ... one of the few things that still binds the country is the issue of Kashmir and the associated vilification of India.``

I think if we are to forge a sense of community within Pakistan, then we need to look for something much more constructive and practical than vilification of India. From personal observation I can say that Pakistanis (Muhajirs, Panjabis, Pathans) in the US are closer together as a community than they are even in Pakistan. And this is despite the fact that many of them have shed their anti-Indian prejudices after working and living alongside them in the US. My vote (and think that of most Pakistanis like people anywhere) would be develop it around some common ideals and values: protection of the life, liberty and property of individuals, economic opportunity, and after that a focus on science and learning. Vilification of India has cost us dearly, and will do so in future (as we sow, so shall we reap in terms of a more violent and divided society). A referendum on such basic issues would make if very hard for anyone - including any military general - to go counter to these wishes.

TRUE NATURE,

YLH,

Stress always has the ability to bring out the true nature, to strip one of the facade. It always puzzled me what the jihadists think of killing the indian muslims, I even enquired with the great Asif, the muslim law giver about the victim muslims, can they also get a place in heaven. Now you have clarified, all indians are hindus. Interpretations, I accept from any one. How stupid of me not to have thought of this possibility.

Regards and thanks for not responding .

Jay

Re: Bahmad #125

I am glad that you like me in spite of my bloodthirsty tendencies! I reciprocate--in spite of your pacifist tendencies!

But seriously, Professor Ahmad, I would like to respond to some of the points you have raised. I for one do not consider India to be a functioning democracy the same way that Norway or the US or Canada is. Simply holding elections every few years or even voting out the occasional government is a necessary but not sufficient condition. In the various Freedom House and, I believe, Gastil studies, India usually rates a `partially-free` or so. This should put it in about the same category as Malaysia. I am sure you have read Farid Zakaria`s article in Foreign Affairs a few years back on `Illiberal Democracy`and Authoritarian Populisms disguising themselves as true democracies. Is India now a more mature democracy than it was in 1975 when Indira Gandhi could impose her State of Emergency? Yes certainly it is. But lets not get too carried away with calling India a `true` or `functional` democracy. If you look at the brutality of the Indian state in crushing internal dissent, it certainly is not in the same category as the Western Countries. It is not even in the same category as some of the former dictatorships in Latin America and Eastern Europe.

I was referring to the political economy literature that comes out of Economics and, to a lesser extent, Political Science. I apologize for not making this clear. The work in Economics and, again to a lesser extent, in Political Science, unlike much of the stuff that comes out of Sociology, the other social sciences and the humanities, is much more based on empirical work. Is it conclusive? Of course not. Nothing in the social sciences is ever conclusive but, unlike the theorizing done in other fields, economists occasionally look at data to see how well their theory fits the real world. No data set is perfect but it is the only way to `test` our theories. To use a phrase from a professor in one of my (nearly) forgotten econometrics courses, ``It doesn`t really matter if it is a biased estimator as long as it is a consistent estimator.``

Of course, there is a lot of `spurious rigor` in economics (what does the umpteenth paper on game theory add to the sum of human knowledge?) and the people who accept the rational actor paradigm in Political Science and Sociology, but I would argue that the sheer tripe content is highest in the humanities and lowest in the more `rigorous` social sciences.

Oops, to be continued later, have to run.

Fairdinkum: Thanks! Glad to be back!

Regards to all.

Sorry, I menat what are the implication/reprecussions do you foresee if this plan fails?

I know it is difficult to foresee anything.. but I feel that this is probably the last chance for Pakistanis to get their act together..

Bilal,
In your view, what are the weaknesses of this plan? And are the implications if this plan fails? Do you fear that failure of this plan may lead to civil war in Pakistan?

I am sorry to sound a bit paranoid..

I`ll wait for your response before saying anything else.

Baap Re

Kya se Kya ho gaya, Bewafa tere pyar main!

Well ! The reason Indians take so much interest in Pakistan is because they LOVE Pakistanis and that’s why above-mentioned song.

But why you people get sooooo emotional about it?

Hamdani ji, you have made your point about your ancestory. Fair enough and nobody has any right to question that. But what I said was in the context about ‘Majority’. I can give more data and material about it not only from Indian but also Pakistani sources latest being the case of Prof. Nayyar speech in a conference in Islamabad. However, I refrain because as Mr. Bilal Ahmed says, “ discussion is getting distracted.”

In respect of Pakistani Identity, here again, one only has to read Mr. Irfan Hussain’s articles during last year or two to know the ground realities.

As for knowing the facts personally by going over to Pakistan, at least I do intend to because I have quite a few close, marvelous friends in Pakistan. However, you must agree that the factors I mentioned in my earlier post are relevant for any positive outcome from these reforms simply because attitudes need to be changed. If devolution plan has to succeed then people must be made to be aware of their own limitations and the corrections required thereafter. This is true for all the societies not just Pakistan.

In response to Fuzair (Reply # 57)
Dear Fuzair:

Your statement: “. . . this plan too will fail.”

Comment: Why? Who will fail it? The genius of so-called illiterate people?

Your statement: “In principle, I agree with . . . the Field Marshall`s considered opinion that democracy was not suited to the genius of the Pakistani people . . . . “

Comment: It was his personal opinion only. Did he understand democracy? Did he really know the genius of the Pakistani people? I think, such statements impose violence on the latent power and intellect of the so-called illiterate (and formally less educated) people. What else can we expect from a person who made it a criminal offense (under the Defense of Pakistan Rules) to create disaffection among the people of Pakistan against the established government. According to this rule, most of us could easily be charged for creating disaffection against the established government of General Musharraf.

Your statement: “[In] the political economy literature . . . there is a general agreement on the view that no effective/functional democracy is possible when the GDP/capita is under $5,000.”

Comment: I am a student of political economy myself. The literature is very vast. If this is generally agreed, then I have a very understanding of political economy. Nevertheless, isn’t there a general consensus around the world that India is the largest functional democracy in the world. What is India’s per capita GDP? According to one source, $1,500 (http://www.global-investor.com/dir/country/in.htm).

Your statement: “I think it was Barrington Moore . . . who said, and I paraphrase, ``No middle class, no democracy.``

Comment: “In his discussion of India`s still unresolved route to modernization, Moore formulates five conditions - based on the discussion of England, France and the US - that he considers necessary for the development of democracy.” These are: (1) the development of a balance to avoid too strong a crown or too independent a landed aristocracy; (2) a turn toward an appropriate form of commercial agriculture either on the part of the landed aristocracy or the peasantry; (3) the weakening of the landed aristocracy; (3) the prevention of an aristocratic-bourgeois coalition against the peasantry; and (5) a revolutionary break with the past (for additional details and a critique, see): http://www.econhist.gu.se/Schema_Excel/SWEDEN.html#RTFToC35

Your statement: “. . . I predict failure. If we can get the economics right and have a decade or two of political stability, sustained 6-8% real GDP growth, have a program of massive spending of primary and secondary education (emphasis on the former) and a mullocaust, I believe we might have a chance. However, I`m not going to hold my breath for this to happen.”

Comment: Me too! I, however, cannot call for “mullocaust” or any other kind of —caust (my pacifist mentality). Fuzair, you sometimes scare me. I, anyhow, like you as an intelligent person. And, by the way, you seem to rely too much on your memory.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

TAhmed #91

What if in any referendum, the vote in one province is different than other provinces. Would you consider taking each province in isolation and decide for each province seperately. Or impose the will of one province over other.

This is a genuine question. eg. KalaBagh Dam.

What we need is consensus rather than referendum.

BAhmed #94

I am glad that you realized the threat perception by Pakistan from India.

I am not in favor of army, moreso Army rule.

But reality is sometimes different than ideal situation.

We need to determine our own future. But we cannot let another to trample our rights and impose their will, IN ANY NAME.

According to Ibn-e-Insha.

We were being looted by foreigners for a long time (British). It was our desire to be looted by our own. Alhamdu-Lillah our wishes are granted (Meaning Independence)

Veeresh # 92

Out of six questions asked, at least three can be answered. (Some other can add more)

1- Considering the tradition of National assembly, Provincial assembly and senate, I don`t think there is any question of one person one vote and equal right and priviledges. (In this regard we have rotated primeministership of Pakistan between a male and female (Benazir and Nawaz Sharif) in last 12 years).

3- Qualification for Nazim or Chief is Matric (Probably for administrative reason). For Common member there is no minimum qualification. (And according to one ministers, educated harmed Pakistan more than illiterate):

3- Local councils will be able to raise taxes. (what taxes they will be allowed, I don`t know).

I am sorry to barge in like this, but Musharraf is in New York staying at the Roosevelt hotel. While he is here it is time to send him a message.

I am prepared to organize a protest against the infamous, immoral, discriminatory, and unIslamic Blasphemy law of Pakistan. As it is Applied, it is nothing more than a political insturment used for the harrassment of minorities.

One Military dictator introduced it as law, another should get rid of it.

I urge all likeminded people who live in the N.Y area to join with me within the next 48 hours. I have already spoken up agianst the Blasphemy law in Dawn: Letters to the Editor in the past, now its time to take action.

Please e-mail me immediately to join a coordinated protest. The moment is ripe to send a msg, while the eyes of the press are focused on New York & the U.N Millenium summit. The more people that participate, the better. If necessary, i will do it alone. I will respond immediately to all e-mails received with details.

OMAR MIRZA

knotyourcupoftea@aol.com

In response to ylh (Reply # 113)
Dear Yasser:

Your statement: ``Dont you think without an election on party basis a clear situation might not emerge ... no agenda .. no platform... no manifesto... ?

Comment: You are absolutely right, provides the parties honor their platform and manifesto. Do they (whatever the reasons)?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

In response to anil (Reply # 56)
Dear Anil:

Thanks for your insightful comments. Although most Pakistanis believe in a very positive image of Liaquat Ali Khan and Mohammad Ali Jinnah, Jinnah definitely took a few steps (perhaps due to the reasons known to him only) which defied the spirit of democracy (for specific details, please go to my Chowk article “Citizenship Rights for a Better Future” and look for responses by MWZaman (a former citizen of Pakistan)).

Ideally, it is difficult for me to think of the establishment of democratic institutions and culture through the use of army power. Realistically, particularly in the context of Pakistan, I can imagine the army to play a role in the establishment of a basic, initial democratic-political framework (though this should not be the job of the army) . Yet, I believe that a democratic “culture” evolves essentially through a democratic process.

Your point about the army officers and corruption is well taken. I suspect, the Indian army officers envy their Pakistani counterpart. And, at least, some of them desire to replicate the Pakistani experience for gaining material and non-material gains, fortunately India is a very large country and its democratic traditions and culture creates many unsurmountable hurdles.

The nature of a relatively free Pakistani press is a great asset to us. It is this relative freedom that allows us the kind of critique that we are developing for the expected transformation of our state-civil society relations.

Your question: Why India and Pakistan are so different? I would argue that there both similarities and differences between the two countries. Why don’t you write a short article and submit it to the Chowk? We may have an interesting interaction (of course with a lot of heat).

Anil, I find your article on autonomy fairly interesting. For my friendly comments, please write me at bahmad@home.com.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

See I am pissed off right now because you have had the nerve to pass on a judgement about my family which has documented its family History for centuries... Ali Wali Hamdani, was from the Iranian city of Hamdan and he came to Kashmir to spread Islam ...His shrine was burnt down a few years ago by the Indian Army ...

Listen, whereas there might be people amongst Indian Muslims who claim to be what they are not .. you cannot expect me to deny my family history just to conform to your views. If I had completely local blood I would tell you ... to me there is no race more noble than the Pakistani race ... but the truth is that I do have authentic Arab and Persian heritage ... not necessarily something to be proud or ashamed of..

and believe me its not how your family has its Arab or Persian heritage.

And Chowk people please PUBLISH this .