Would Devolution Empower “We the People”?

I am sorry Bilal sahib but I had to write that last post ... because these Indians tend to get out of hand...loose without their leash.

I dont understand why these Indians come and ruin a perfectly good discussion anyway ...

What is your obsession with Pakistan ... werent we discussing a devolution plan which was implemented by Musharraf in ``PAKISTAN`` and not in India ... so why are you people so keen to learn about Pakistan ... did you ever see any of us come to your websites and discuss Andhra Pradesh

CMship or Jay Lalita`s whatever???? Did you see us give expert opinions on your budget or your micro finance schemes or whatever?????

Why did Hamsab make that statement anyway .. criticizing our way of perceiving History ...

you know what whether we do it one way or the other ... whether we wanna make Pakistan secular or not ... is None of any Indian`s business.

And I request chowk editors to put this post up please because eventhough it is a digression ... it might just make Indians stop trying to come here and giving us their rusting two cents for which we have no worth or use.

Now Bilal Bhai I am really sorry for the digression.

I have a question for you about the Devolution plan ...

Dont you think without an election on party basis

a clear situation might not emerge ... no agenda .. no platform... no manifesto... ?

Yours sincerely

Yasser Hamdani

and Incase my last post was not posted ...

I hope you read this satywadi

my name Hamdani should have given it away but obviously you dont know enough...

From my mother`s side ... I have documented lineage straight to Muhammad PBUH ... so next time you want to expound upon your personal non sensical theories of where 0.01 percent Arab, Persian or Turkish Blood .. read first ....

Please for god sakes grow up ...

I am not saying that local Pakistani blood is any less Noble ... all I did say was that it has a lot of mix ...

Where do you Indians get your information anyway?

I think all present here know my views about Secularism and Pakistani Nationalism ... and I am proud to be a Pakistani ... but if I were to trace the origins of current PAKISTANI people ... yes there will be local people ... and then there will be the descendants of the settlers...

I dont know why descendants of the settlers are such an impossible thing for you ... are you telling me people from all over the Islamic world didnt settle in India from 1100s to 1800s???

Did you know that your leader Abu Al Kalaam Azaad was the son of a Muslim migrant from the Middle East?

and what about the Mughals werent they central Asian ... dont they have descendants in Modern Pakistan ???? or Syeds or Khiljis or Lodhis or Tughlaqs??? werent post of them Turks???

and dont tell me ... Arabs in Sindh didnt leave any descendants????

Your babbling is not only nonsensical but it is also worthless....

The truth is that no one is out to deny any heritage ... but I am not going to lie to make you happy .... to me Pakistani nation is a modern nation with various influences. I wonder why you made such a big deal of the word Arab or Turk anyway ... what insecurity is it anyway????

Pakistan is not yours ... ok ? You shouldnt be concerned about us.

Shammi#107

Why Pakistan not merge with India.

Well because of you.

We have to listen the smelly lectures again and again.

And what source do you have which says that Mahmud of Ghzna was not benevolent ... how can you be so sure ... ????

Satyavadi # 104

I am glad that YLH has not mentioned Hindu influence.

It stinks.

At least you do.

See I am pissed off right now because you have had the nerve to pass on a judgement about my family which has documented its family History for centuries... Ali Wali Hamdani, was from the Iranian city of Hamdan and he came to Kashmir to spread Islam ...His shrine was burnt down a few years ago by the Indian Army ...

Listen, whereas there might be people amongst Indian Muslims who claim to be what they are not .. you cannot expect me to deny my family history just to conform to your views. If I had completely local blood I would tell you ... to me there is no race more noble than the Pakistani race ... but the truth is that I do have authentic Arab and Persian heritage ... not necessarily something to be proud or ashamed of..

and believe me its not how your family has its Arab or Persian heritage.

And Chowk people please PUBLISH this .

In response to anil (Reply # 56)
Dear Anil:

Thanks for your insightful comments. Although most Pakistanis believe in a very positive image of Liaquat Ali Khan and Mohammad Ali Jinnah, Jinnah definitely took a few steps (perhaps due to the reasons known to him only) which defied the spirit of democracy (for specific details, please go to my Chowk article “Citizenship Rights for a Better Future” and look for responses by MWZaman (a former citizen of Pakistan)).

Ideally, it is difficult for me to think of the establishment of democratic institutions and culture through the use of army power. Realistically, particularly in the context of Pakistan, I can imagine the army to play a role in the establishment of a basic, initial democratic-political framework (though this should not be the job of the army) . Yet, I believe that a democratic “culture” evolves essentially through a democratic process.

Your point about the army officers and corruption is well taken. I suspect, the Indian army officers envy their Pakistani counterpart. And, at least, some of them desire to replicate the Pakistani experience for gaining material and non-material gains, fortunately India is a very large country and its democratic traditions and culture creates many unsurmountable hurdles.

The nature of a relatively free Pakistani press is a great asset to us. It is this relative freedom that allows us the kind of critique that we are developing for the expected transformation of our state-civil society relations.

Your question: Why India and Pakistan are so different? I would argue that there both similarities and differences between the two countries. Why don’t you write a short article and submit it to the Chowk? We may have an interesting interaction (of course with a lot of heat).

Anil, I find your article on autonomy fairly interesting. For my friendly comments, please write me at bahmad@home.com.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

In response to ylh (Reply # 113)
Dear Yasser:

Your statement: ``Dont you think without an election on party basis a clear situation might not emerge ... no agenda .. no platform... no manifesto... ?

Comment: You are absolutely right, provides the parties honor their platform and manifesto. Do they (whatever the reasons)?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

I am sorry to barge in like this, but Musharraf is in New York staying at the Roosevelt hotel. While he is here it is time to send him a message.

I am prepared to organize a protest against the infamous, immoral, discriminatory, and unIslamic Blasphemy law of Pakistan. As it is Applied, it is nothing more than a political insturment used for the harrassment of minorities.

One Military dictator introduced it as law, another should get rid of it.

I urge all likeminded people who live in the N.Y area to join with me within the next 48 hours. I have already spoken up agianst the Blasphemy law in Dawn: Letters to the Editor in the past, now its time to take action.

Please e-mail me immediately to join a coordinated protest. The moment is ripe to send a msg, while the eyes of the press are focused on New York & the U.N Millenium summit. The more people that participate, the better. If necessary, i will do it alone. I will respond immediately to all e-mails received with details.

OMAR MIRZA

knotyourcupoftea@aol.com

Veeresh # 92

Out of six questions asked, at least three can be answered. (Some other can add more)

1- Considering the tradition of National assembly, Provincial assembly and senate, I don`t think there is any question of one person one vote and equal right and priviledges. (In this regard we have rotated primeministership of Pakistan between a male and female (Benazir and Nawaz Sharif) in last 12 years).

3- Qualification for Nazim or Chief is Matric (Probably for administrative reason). For Common member there is no minimum qualification. (And according to one ministers, educated harmed Pakistan more than illiterate):

3- Local councils will be able to raise taxes. (what taxes they will be allowed, I don`t know).

BAhmed #94

I am glad that you realized the threat perception by Pakistan from India.

I am not in favor of army, moreso Army rule.

But reality is sometimes different than ideal situation.

We need to determine our own future. But we cannot let another to trample our rights and impose their will, IN ANY NAME.

According to Ibn-e-Insha.

We were being looted by foreigners for a long time (British). It was our desire to be looted by our own. Alhamdu-Lillah our wishes are granted (Meaning Independence)

TAhmed #91

What if in any referendum, the vote in one province is different than other provinces. Would you consider taking each province in isolation and decide for each province seperately. Or impose the will of one province over other.

This is a genuine question. eg. KalaBagh Dam.

What we need is consensus rather than referendum.

In response to Fuzair (Reply # 57)
Dear Fuzair:

Your statement: “. . . this plan too will fail.”

Comment: Why? Who will fail it? The genius of so-called illiterate people?

Your statement: “In principle, I agree with . . . the Field Marshall`s considered opinion that democracy was not suited to the genius of the Pakistani people . . . . “

Comment: It was his personal opinion only. Did he understand democracy? Did he really know the genius of the Pakistani people? I think, such statements impose violence on the latent power and intellect of the so-called illiterate (and formally less educated) people. What else can we expect from a person who made it a criminal offense (under the Defense of Pakistan Rules) to create disaffection among the people of Pakistan against the established government. According to this rule, most of us could easily be charged for creating disaffection against the established government of General Musharraf.

Your statement: “[In] the political economy literature . . . there is a general agreement on the view that no effective/functional democracy is possible when the GDP/capita is under $5,000.”

Comment: I am a student of political economy myself. The literature is very vast. If this is generally agreed, then I have a very understanding of political economy. Nevertheless, isn’t there a general consensus around the world that India is the largest functional democracy in the world. What is India’s per capita GDP? According to one source, $1,500 (http://www.global-investor.com/dir/country/in.htm).

Your statement: “I think it was Barrington Moore . . . who said, and I paraphrase, ``No middle class, no democracy.``

Comment: “In his discussion of India`s still unresolved route to modernization, Moore formulates five conditions - based on the discussion of England, France and the US - that he considers necessary for the development of democracy.” These are: (1) the development of a balance to avoid too strong a crown or too independent a landed aristocracy; (2) a turn toward an appropriate form of commercial agriculture either on the part of the landed aristocracy or the peasantry; (3) the weakening of the landed aristocracy; (3) the prevention of an aristocratic-bourgeois coalition against the peasantry; and (5) a revolutionary break with the past (for additional details and a critique, see): http://www.econhist.gu.se/Schema_Excel/SWEDEN.html#RTFToC35

Your statement: “. . . I predict failure. If we can get the economics right and have a decade or two of political stability, sustained 6-8% real GDP growth, have a program of massive spending of primary and secondary education (emphasis on the former) and a mullocaust, I believe we might have a chance. However, I`m not going to hold my breath for this to happen.”

Comment: Me too! I, however, cannot call for “mullocaust” or any other kind of —caust (my pacifist mentality). Fuzair, you sometimes scare me. I, anyhow, like you as an intelligent person. And, by the way, you seem to rely too much on your memory.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Baap Re

Kya se Kya ho gaya, Bewafa tere pyar main!

Well ! The reason Indians take so much interest in Pakistan is because they LOVE Pakistanis and that’s why above-mentioned song.

But why you people get sooooo emotional about it?

Hamdani ji, you have made your point about your ancestory. Fair enough and nobody has any right to question that. But what I said was in the context about ‘Majority’. I can give more data and material about it not only from Indian but also Pakistani sources latest being the case of Prof. Nayyar speech in a conference in Islamabad. However, I refrain because as Mr. Bilal Ahmed says, “ discussion is getting distracted.”

In respect of Pakistani Identity, here again, one only has to read Mr. Irfan Hussain’s articles during last year or two to know the ground realities.

As for knowing the facts personally by going over to Pakistan, at least I do intend to because I have quite a few close, marvelous friends in Pakistan. However, you must agree that the factors I mentioned in my earlier post are relevant for any positive outcome from these reforms simply because attitudes need to be changed. If devolution plan has to succeed then people must be made to be aware of their own limitations and the corrections required thereafter. This is true for all the societies not just Pakistan.

Bilal,
In your view, what are the weaknesses of this plan? And are the implications if this plan fails? Do you fear that failure of this plan may lead to civil war in Pakistan?

I am sorry to sound a bit paranoid..

I`ll wait for your response before saying anything else.

Sorry, I menat what are the implication/reprecussions do you foresee if this plan fails?

I know it is difficult to foresee anything.. but I feel that this is probably the last chance for Pakistanis to get their act together..