Women in India: Are We Better Off?

``They seem to have arrived at the following conclusion in the Prologue of the Report itself, ``in India, in ancient times, women had enjoyed an able position in the household and in

society. As the `queen` of the household, her position was envied by her

counterparts elsewhere. Unfortunately, constant invasions by foreign elements

from about 8th century changed the scenario to the detriment of women. Her

vulnerability to abuse by the invading hordes bestowed upon man a responsibility

to protect her and from thence developed the inherent dominant role of the male

within the family fold and her inevitable dependence on the male. Long years of

invasion and infliction of crime on her resulted in many protective measures. The

direct effect of this state of affairs was perforce, keeping women within the four

corners of the home and consequential enforced illiteracy which has been, by

and large, her lot since then.``

So let me see, all the problems women in India have started in 8th century. What in the hell is wrong with you people? When are going to get over this 1000 years subjugation syndrome. All this self-pity is unhealthy.

RE: Scout#39

It is interesting to see that, when an article is published about India, how some Khatris start running scared.

Indian womens libbers take note of the condition in a place where some have opted to live.

from dawn of today,

THE National Identity Card is usually taken as a permanent instrument of ``personal`` identity of the holder. Any change, if at all, may be necessitated only if someone changes the name or the name of one`s father is changed. This is true as far as men are concerned.

However, a women has to go again and again through an agonizing, time consuming and expensive hassle of getting a new ID Card when she marries. Miseries of an unfortunate victim of circumstances, beyond her control, are aggravated manifolds since she has to have a new card every time she is divorced or remarries, although her own identity does not change.

Now that new computerized ID cards are being issued, it is hoped the this vital matter would receive serious consideration and a card once obtained by a woman must be declared a permanent instrument of personal recognition irrespective of marital status.

This will be a small favor shown to the women many of whom are going without an ID card only to avoid the abject harassment.

Zahra #40, macgupta #37 #36
Very good reading, thanks.

Sadhana

Although the issues identified in the article are serious and worth addressing, the article in itself is neither compelling nor moving. It is a documentary of events with a misleading heading!

I do not see `men – the cruel ignorant ones` reading this piece and making a vow to:

a)Learn, how to treat women
b)Stand by their wives through thick and thin
c)Stand up for the rights of their daughters
d)Start realizing that women [their daughters, wives and sisters] have a defined share in all the family inheritance
e)Allow a family woman the right of divorce, if she is being mistreated or dislikes her husband

Laiken, the writer did care to analyze the root cause of a few points, for which she deserves credit.

- The missing component is: Next Steps?
- Why do we leave these Next Steps - figure out yourself ?
[I am sure the writer does not expect angels to land on earth and resolve the issues for the womankind.]
- Why is she is trying to wake up the ones who are dreaming of Dahi Bha`llas and Seekh Kababs?They will come back saying, that we treat our women equally and nicely.

- Shouldn’t it be a woman`s call first?
- Who can influence a society?
- A mother? Who bears a child?
- Who adds the most to a child’s upbringing?
Do not think for a minute that I am ignoring the father’s role, but it is the mother’s language the child catches first. On one of my recent trips to West Coast, I met my little nephew, whose mother is a Malaysian. The child is amazingly fluent in Malay and English than in Urdu or any other languages. The grandmother is performing the duty of teaching the kid Urdu and Arabic. Look at the influence of women in this little boy’s life. He will just start school in few days and will have another woman teaching him in his class. Please contemplate very carefully on the term: Influence!

Some Observations:

a)During my grad school, I ran into two Indian women who were pursuing their higher studies. Both of them were newlyweds, who grew up in India and came to US after marriage. Both of them were very adamant to complete their degrees besides being newlyweds. Their husbands had no interest, whether they received grade A or C. These women deserved a lot of credit for their patience and perseverance. One was married to a man[Lord Kaa`m Chor`], who never entered his kitchen - an engineer. It was his wife[Shreematee` Jee],who was supposed to fetch a glass of water or food for him, whenever he needed. [Unbelievable, in this day and age]. The woman rather than trying to mend his ways, ended up further Bigaa`ro-fy the situation. In this scenario, the culprit was her M.I.L. [as per the girl- I disagreed]. The MIL - miscreant, used to visit her son, twice a year. As she had only one son, therefore she wanted to make sure that Bahu Raa`ni was not mistreating her ``Aa`nkhoa`n Kaa` Taa`raa Toddler.``
[For the sake of clarity, I will use the term `toddler` for her hubby]

I was simply amazed/astonished/spell-bound to see the girl`s tolerance level. At times, it was damn annoying to hear her going through the pain of attending her classes, running home to cook fresh food before the Lord returned and making sure everything looked spick and span.

The toddler was in the bad habit of telling his mother in India regarding the time his wife gave him the breakfast, cooked the lunch and served the dinner. The girl was under a lot of pressure due to all these things and was trying to juggle between her school and home [basically, the toddler]. Besides all this nonsense, she was a very hardworking woman and did well in her studies. My suggestion to fall sick occasionally and other Nazuk` Unda`meeyaa`n never worked, the fellow was indifferent & insensitive. If she were ever late or sick, he would make her feel guilty that his mother would never give priority to herself. It took her sometime, but she kind of brought him down to earth from Lord Kaa`m Chor`s Level to Lord Human Being. [Her % of success was 60:40). It took her few years, but being vocal added to her better understanding with Lord Kaa`m Chor husband.

b)A very traditional Indian girl, got married in a blindly traditional manner. The family interviewed and scrutinized a guy [Indian - born and bred in US] for their daughter. They were told that he was at a managerial position in US. She [a qualified engineer] ended up marrying him and came to US. When she tried to find out his occupation, it was something that neither she nor her family could ever imagine--the guy had a background in engineering, but was working in his father’s apartment complex, as a maintenance person. First of all, she took few months to reconcile with the idea. Secondly, she could not talk to her parents about it, for they may get a shock. Thirdly, her plan to pursue higher education got postponed. Her father-in-law [An insult to Godfather] was a control freak. He had a very bad influence on his son and other family, in general. Being an extremely selfish and cruel man, he would torture the couple in many ways: the son was never paid in his entire life, he was kind of a slave and the daughter-in-law was not allowed to spend a penny. After a lot of arguments and tussles, the girl ended up going for her MBA. Besides the husband`s attempt to leave his father’s business, the guy could not find another job as he’d been out of his field for a very long time[more than a decade or so]. As this couple lived with the guy’s parents and other family, therefore they had no other way of survival than to tolerate the maltreatment. After she finished her studies, she got a job and tried to take her husband out of his father’s influence. It was a very traumatic period for this girl and her family in India, but her perseverance to make her marriage work was commendable. On one occasion, the girl was beaten/kicked by her father-in-law just because she asked,`if she could go to a bank with her husband first, and then to the party the whole family was supposed to go.` This amazing young woman did not let go of this ruthless act and took a stand, by calling 911. The police came and a case was registered. The husband was forced to pressurize the wife to withdraw the case and divorce her. He refused to follow any instructions [It took him sometime to wake up] after seeing his father’s behavior. Finally, they ended up moving out of that Munhoos house and are fine now. The couple meets the guy’s parents, but the girl can never forgive and forget the past nightmares. I had hardly known her for a couple of years, when the horrific episode took place. I wanted to narrate this episode for various reasons:

a)The woman’s strength
b)The woman’s holding onto her traditional views [Which I found to be very bizarre in the prevalent circumstances, but respected as an individual’s approach]
c)The woman’s standing up for herself and making her very turbulent life a haven

In general, the atrocities happened and will keep on happening. Unless a woman does not stand up for herself, she is never going to realize--what is meant by taking a stand in life and learning from it. Parents, siblings, friends, peers and relatives matter a lot for emotional support – Laiken, they cannot decide for her or think for her.

No one can, except for the woman herself!

Rsaxena #29,

Are you related to Jay?

You`re beginning to sound like him.

RSaxena - iforget the reply # but -

``We don`t need to be reminded...we need some action to fix the problems.``

To htat dubious note let me add - and ????

regarding the article - everyone contributes how they see fit.

regarding women - they do face the same problems discrimination/physical/mental-abuse/whatnots

to/of varying degree all over the world - even here. To be able to help even one of them going thru that hell - counts. You dont ness have to go to India/Pak to do your good deed for the day. Or - just sitting on the fence and recognizing the need for ``action`` is counted as one these days??

In another article, Madhu Kishwar points out :

http://www.freespeech.org/manushi/115/madhu.html

``When [Indian] women demean themselves in ways currently approved by the West, nobody is particularly upset.``

The whole article is worth reading.

-arun gupta

Folks,

Here is an Indian woman explaining the irrelevance of the Manusmriti to Hindu life :

http://www.freespeech.org/manushi/117/manusmriti.html

Her argument is that Hindus have almost never been ruled by the Manusmriti, or by any set of textual laws; instead laws varied by community, locality, jati, family.

The British in their search for a single authoritative source to rule Hindus by brought about the myth that Hindus were governed by the Manusmriti.

To whet your appetite for the above article :

In the late 18th century, the British began to study the ancient shastras to develop a set of legal principles that would assist them in adjudicating disputes within Indian civil society. In fact, they found there was no single body of canonical law, no Hindu Pope to legitimise a uniform legal code for all the diverse communities of India, no Shankaracharya whose writ reigned all over the country......

Perhaps more egregiously, in their search, the British took no steps to understand local or jati based customary law or the way in which every community – no matter how wealthy or poor – regulated its own internal affairs through jati or biradari panchayats, without seeking permission or validation from any higher authority. The power to introduce a new custom, or change existing practices, rested in large part within each community. Any individual or group respected within that biradari could initiate reforms. This tradition of self-governance is what accounts for the vast diversity of cultural practices within the subcontinent......



In order to arrive at a definitive version of the Indian legal system that would mainly be useful for them, the East India Company began to recruit and train pandits for its own service. In 1772, Warren Hastings hired a group of eleven pandits to cooperate with the Company in the creation of a new digest of Hindu law that would govern civil disputes in the British courts....

This codification still could not put an end to the conflicts of opinion....

The resulting confusions and reports of corruption led William Jones to work on a more `definitive` code of Hindu law, as a reference work for Europeans in India. Jones` statement says it all:

``I can no longer bear to be at the mercy of our pandits who deal out Hindu law as they please, and make it at reasonable rates, when they cannot find it ready made.`` (Derret, p. 244)

He was determined that the British should administer to the Indian people the best shastric law that could be discovered. Jones went on to translate Manusmriti. It became one of the most favoured texts of the British. A policy decision was taken at the highest levels in the India Office to keep this particular document in circulation and project it as the fountainhead of Hindu jurisprudence, for the purpose of perpetuating the illusion that the British were merely enforcing the shastric injunctions by which Hindus were governed anyway, and that they had inherited the authority to administer this law.....

The British consistently promoted the myth that Hindus were governed by their codified versions of shastric injunctions......

Since then, the dynamism of customary law has been in constant conflict with the frozen and artificial Anglo-Shastric law......

Neither shastras nor smritis suggest that there exists an immutable, universal moral doctrine. Rather, they emphasise that codes of morality must be specific to time, person, and place, and evolve according to changing requirements.

For example, Narada states, ``custom is powerful and overrides the sacred law.``

Manusmriti itself stresses that the business of the ruler is not to impose laws from above but that,

``a king... must inquire into the law of castes (jati), of districts (Ganapada), of guilds (Shreni), and of families (kula), and settle the peculiar law of each...Thus have the holy sages, well knowing that law is grounded on immemorial custom, embraced as the root of all piety good usages long established.`` (Mulla, Principles of Hindu Laws, 15th ed., 1986, p. 23).

The authority to change or create new customs rests with not just the biradari but also the kula or family. Our smritikars repeatedly stress the primacy of custom and practice over textual axioms......

Discrimination against women or Dalits is neither inherently `Hindu` nor is it scripturally mandated. This is not to suggest that such practices do not exist. Sadly enough, the disgraceful treatment of Dalits and downgrading of women are among the most shameful aspects of contemporary Indian society.

But they will not disappear by burning ancient texts because none of the `Hindu` scriptures have projected themselves as commandment-giving authorities demanding unconditional obedience from all those claiming to be Hindus....

etc.

-arun gupta

Radhika:

Brilliant! I really liked your article.

Women have always been put down because of 2 reasons - the insecurities of men and the jealousy of other women.

Men are to blame 95% because of their own insecurity with respect to women. The more men interact with women at all levels and get educated, they are able to see that they have nothing to feel insecure about and that women are just as smart or just as weak as men. Given the same environment and opportunity a man or woman can perform equally well - even the traditionally gender specific tasks and roles.

I am against gender-based segregation practiced by most cultures.

Women are also to blame 5% of the time because I myself have seen women put down by other women primarily because of jealousy. The more women get educated this is going to change.

Bottom line, men and women are just plain human. My two daughters can kick ass as good as or better than any man in any culture or race.

RE: RADHIKA

This refers to National Commission for Women`s (NCW) report and its conclusions on the status of women in India. I am surprised that the NCW missed the Laws of Manu while compiling their report:

{THE LAWS OF MANU

The Laws of Manu represent one of the most ancient sources for our knowledge of early Indian social structure. Though it was probably written in the first or second century BCE, the traditions that it presents are much older, perhaps dating back to the period of Aryan invasions almost fifteen hundred years earlier. Manu himself was a mythical character, the first man, who was transformed into a king by the great god Brahma because of his ability to protect the people. The fact that the ancient Indians attributed the beginnings of kingship and social classes to the first man is evidence that they themselves recognized the antiquity of these institutions.

STATUS AND DUTIES OF WOMEN, FROM THE LAWS OF MANU

Women must be honored and adorned by their father, brothers, husbands, and brother-in-law who desire great good fortune.

Where women, verily are honored, there the gods rejoice; where, however, they are not honored, there all sacred rites prove fruitless.

Where the female relations live in grief -- that family soon perishes completely; where, however, they do not suffer from any grievance -- that family always prospers.

Her father protects her in childhood, her husband protects her in youth, her sons protect her in old age -- a woman does not deserve independence.

The father who does not give away his daughter in marriage at the proper time is censurable; censurable is the husband who does not approach his wife in due season; and after the husband is dead, the son, verily is censurable, who does not protect his mother.

Even against the slightest provocations should women be particularly guarded; for unguarded they would bring grief to both the families.
Regarding this as the highest dharma of all four castes, husbands, though weak, must strive to protect their wives.

His own offspring, character, family, self, and dharma does one protect when he protects his wife scrupulously.

The husband should engage his wife in the collection and expenditure of his wealth, in cleanliness, in dharma, in cooking food for the family, and in looking after the necessities of the household.

Women destined to bear children, enjoying great good fortune, deserving of worship, the resplendent lights of homes on the one hand and divinities of good luck who reside in the houses on the other -- between these there is no difference whatsoever.}

For further info visit :
http://www.humanities.ccny.cuny.edu/history/reader/MANU.htm

Re: tahmed

``The measures you indicate (toilets etc.) are measures of economic poverty. The measures I refer to (treatment of other people and of animals) are measures of spiritual poverty.``

Agreed. Strange thing is that most domesticated animals in the West have access to plumbing and medical care while many of our people don`t. So until we can take care of our people, our animals will continue to be second on the list.

Re: Ms. Chandar

``Isn`t it a place which is supposed to promote harmony within the South Asia region, rather than promoting hostilities between Hindu/Muslim fanatics?``

Uhhhh, NO!! From what I understand it is a place for open discourse..unbiased, brutally honest, and raw.

Re: aicha

``This article is anthing but jaded and does a very good job of reminding us of the plight of women in the subcontinent``

We don`t need to be reminded...we need some action to fix the problems.

Re: sac #13

For once, I whole heartedly agree with you! Down with these male bashers!

Satyavadi #19 I have heard of (and seen) similar situations among Pakistanis too. One more: Husband forbids family planning - Wife sneaks off to clinic and asks for something to prevent future pregnancies (reported as commonplace by my brother when he was a medical intern in Lahore).

RSaxena #18 The measures you indicate (toilets etc.) are measures of economic poverty. The measures I refer to (treatment of other people and of animals) are measures of spiritual poverty. It is the spiritual poverty of many among the South Asian ``elite`` that is responsible in large part for the economic poverty of the South Asian poor.