Women in India: Are We Better Off?

There are two very important matters of a women`s life where a daughter is not given as much freedom to take her decisions, as a son.

1. Career:

There are restrictions in many families on girls staying out of home,in hostel etc. I know of a cousin who was forced to join an engineering college after her Dad refused permission for her to study in a medical college in another city. Now the same Dad is looking for a groom and is ready to consign his electonics engineer daughter to housewife status, if the demand came from a suitably rich family with a decent looking son.

2. Marriage:

Specially in arranged marriages, the girl has little choice. In many families the guy is selected by the parents of the girl and a proposal already given to the guy`s side, without the girl having met the guy at all. The first time the girl sees the guy, is when the meeting is officially scheduled. The girl though theoretically has the right to reject the guy, practically the girl`s side is already committed and the girl if unhappy with choice, is mostly pressurized into consenting.

These are my observations from some people I know. I know a lot of families who give much more

freedom to their daughters in career choice and marriage. But I still wonder if the degree of freedom is the same as they have for their sons.

Any comments anyone?

Satyavadi

Here`s what giving in to Pakistani groups` demands on Kashmir will do for the liberation of its women. Sorry to corrupt your board with Kashmir Ms. Radhika, but it is relevant.

From yesterday`s newswires.

Lashker warns govt employees, women

SRINAGAR: Less than a week after the Hizbul Mujahideen opposed census in the state, Pakistan-based militant outfit Lashker-e-Toiba on Thursday handed out a death threat to 22,000 government employees if they joined the exercise. The outfit also warned women in the state that if they did not use the ``purdah`` (veil) while on the streets, they would be shot in the leg.

This message is for Rsaxena:

Are you a nephew/niece of Bal Thakray (the Hindu fanatic?) It seems that because of your ``Pakistanphobia`` only negative comments are generated from your side. Rather than taking a balanced viewpoint on situation around you, you seem to focus on negative aspects. Why are you so bitter about every thing?

I don`t know why the administration at Chowk.com allows your negative comments to be posted on its site. Isn`t it a place which is supposed to promote harmony within the South Asia region, rather than promoting hostilities between Hindu/Muslim fanatics?

reply #11 RSaxena

dont see the point in your reply either.

This article is anthing but jaded and does a very good job of reminding us of the plight of women in the subcontinent. You do have to realise that everyone tries in their own way.

reply #?? Satyavadi - 1&3&4 - good solutions but they just dont work : (

However as an aside - the sad state of some men being the way they are is more due to their upbringing rather than any other factor.

I mean - why shouldnt a male child also be taught to help around the house, make tea?? for want of a better ... - despite the servants. Wont make them a sissy and a lot easier to deal with.

Having said that - a world without tehm and hindi movies. Gawd!!

``No nation can rise to the height of glory unless your women are side by side with you. We are victims of evil customs. It is a crime against humanity that our women are shut up within the four walls of the houses as prisoners.``

Muhammad Ali Jinnah 1944

Pakistan should have the same concerns as expressed by the author. Here I have to say that I am really proud of my mom who has been serving the nation as a Doctor for more than 25 years ... and is currently a DHO which puts her in charge of an entire district... I can literally see the anguish of the maulvis and fundoos of her district.

We need to stop misrepresenting Islam and using it to our advantages... like Fatima Mernissi says ... its the male elite that have used it to their advantage ...

Pakistan ZIndabad

``No nation can

rise to the height of glory unless your women are side by side with you. We are victims of evil customs. It is a crime against humanity

that our women are shut up within the four walls of the houses as prisoners.``

Muhammad Ali Jinnah 1944

Pakistan should have the same concerns as expressed by the author. Here I have to say that I am really proud of my mom who has been serving the nation as a Doctor for more than 25 years ... and is currently a DHO which puts her in charge of an entire district... I can literally see the anguish of the maulvis and fundoos of her district.

We need to stop misrepresenting Islam and using it to our advantages... like Fatima Mernissi says ... its the male elite that have used it to their advantage ...

Pakistan ZIndabad

Re: Radhika

A well balanced article.

In many ways, I wish you had titled your article as ``Homos ad portas!``. Roughly translated from Latin it means men at the gates and the orginal comes from the popular Roman refrain, from the Punic Wars, of Hannibal ad portas or Hannibal at the the gates. In the modern lexicon, it means barbarians at the gates and given the message of your article, it would have been more apt!

Gender inequality is endemic throughout the world and I just hope that people will keep this in mind and not turn this into another mindless Indo-Pak mud slinging fest. It is a serious topic which deserves serious consideration and cannot be marginalized.

Ciao!

Geeta Press Sati edition or Playboy weekly? edition, any denigration, taking the support of scriptures or of market forces ought to be loudly condemned. Often the most effective counterarguments for such BAD things are found within the same scriptures and market forces, so theres nothing wrong in trying that out, too.

Please take time out and ask your household help or your vegetable seller what they have to face on a daily basis. You may realise its more a question of entrenched social customs, easy availability of country liquor and the modern rush toward consumerism where dowry is concerned than anything else.

Having publically-acclaimed role-model women achievers does make a positive difference, whether Kiran Bedi, Justice Fatima Beevi or Aishwarya Rai.

Where exactly does Karachi come into all this?

Sadhana

Important issue.

But why the reference to ancient and medieval India. Can`t we discuss anything without references to Ramayana, etc.

Women all over the world are worst off than their male counterparts. Of course, this differs in different places. One thing is common though. When humans moved from hunter/gatherers to home dwellers, farmers and built communities/societies women were left out. When concepts of property, estate, state were formulated women were left out and kind of got included with the men or as an extension of a mans possesions. This created some serious economic disparities which still exist. Of course, as labour intensive chores got associated with the physically stronger male this disparity only increased through industrilization, etc.

Forget ancient India and other such phrases (you missed this very popular ancient Delhi/Haryana phrase, I believe from the erstwhile Manu himself) like ``Dhor, pashu, naari, yeh sab taadan ke adhikari`` (meaning cattle, animals and women are entitled to being beaten).

The focus should be on present rules, regulations, conditions and social norms in India. Do these give the women folk equal oppurtunities or not ? And are the women availing them, if not, why ?
The basic issue is of economic parity with men. Emerging new economies afford women, IMHO, a lot more oppurtunities. A lot of the service oriented fields which do not require physical labour (DR, RX, lawyers, IT professionals, knowledge workers) are perfect for women. A lot of this starts with education. Just compare stats of American women to their European counterparts and see what economic parity with men gives women.

But this is kind of like saying that a woman will only get her worth if she succeeds in a ``mans world`` ie she works just like most men and is not a housewife. In India, most of the women are housewives. So how does one value their very useful contribution to a household ?????? The problem in India is it does not get valued at all.
It is quite obvious that economically independant women take less abuse from men than women who are not economically independant.

regards

I am always amazed by one commonality in all these man-haters. All men are evil except the ones in their comfy lives. huh........???? And when men say most women are sluts except for their sisters,mothers and wives they are laughed out of the room...huh????

Even their guru Gloria Steinem couldn`t escape the booty call at 66!! Try as you might you can`t get rid of us.........Sorry!!

later

-sac

P.S:Oh...and I agree with Jay about the article.

Here are ways Indian girls to get around some of their families` patriarchal norms. All from experiences of very close relatives of mine.

1. College going girl forbidden to wear skirts and jeans. (only salwar kameez allowed).



Leave home in a nice salwar kameez, reach some friend-with-a-liberal-mom`s home. Change into a nice skirt and sleeveless shirt. From college back to friend-with-a-liberal-mom`s home, change back in the salwar kameez. Return home like a nice demure obedient girl.

2. Married girl allowed only sari at in-law`s; allowed other dresses at Dad`s

a. Leaving hubby`s bombay for daddy`s hyderabad

Pair-chhuo-fy mummyji and paapaji with a nice silk sari , with heady perfectly covered.

Board the train, take the handbag and enter the train`s bathroom. Change into comfortable salwar kameez or jeans-tshirt. Ask toddler Bittu not to mention it to ``badi mummy`` or ``daadiji``. Carry just one other sari along for return from Hyd to Bom.

b. Leaving with Hubby and friends for Esselworld

Wear a nice zippered Sari with head covered. Sit in the car and pull down the zip to reveal jeans-tshirt or skirt etc. Coming back home, pull the sari on again and zip it up properly.

3. College going girl not allowed to visit discs.

Go to Reena`s house to stay overnight for group discussion with only `female friends` for impending exams. Rafuchakkar from there to the disc, with female as well as male friends.

4. Mom not approving of a boyfriend.

Make him a rakhi-brother and get him unlimited phone call and occassional visit rights.

Drop the bombshell on the day mummy-paapa have arranged the first ladki-dekhna.

Aaj bolo bhiayya bhaiyya, kal bolo saiyyan saiyyan.

Re: TAhmed

``Gandhi, I understand, said that to judge a society`s worth, see the way dogs are treated in that society.``

How about the number of:

- Flush toilets

- Malaria cases

- Typhoid cases

- Clean drinking water faucets

- Doctors/1000 people

- Days of uninterrupted power supply

I think the status of women in India is a mixed bag. On the one hand, educational opportunities, jobs, political opportunities, etc. are increasing. Health-care of women is improving -- mortality during childbirth, for example, has been dropping over the past few generations.

On the other hand, social ills like dowry and dowry-related harassment and abuse are also increasing, among Hindu communities and among communities of other religions that did not have these practices just two generations ago (e.g., my community)!

The women/men gender ratio is a good indication of how much attention is paid to women`s health and well-being, and the answer is it is still not adequate. By this measure, prosperity does not seem to be strongly correlated to women`s status. For example, Punjab is relatively prosperous but has a relatively unfavorable gender ratios.

The author has done us a favor by bringing us to examine all this.

BUT :

About the last (IMO stupid) paragraph in the article :

Individual achievements do not ameliorate the condition of the majority of people. But what alternative are you suggesting ?

E.g., even if 100% of the police force and armed forces of India and railways personnel were women, that would only be about 4 million out of about 500 million or 0.8% -- we could still safely claim that 80% of the women in India are miserable. In fact, I think if 100% of the so-called ``organized sector`` of the economy were run by women, it would still leave 80% of the women ``miserable``.

By celebrating the achievement of a few, we are saying that we are open to achievement by all. Though frankly, I think women judges and business owners and engineers and doctors and so on are more worthy of celebration than Ms. World.

-arun gupta

Radhika:

Like you, I am disappointed that the NCW starts its report with stupid references to ancient and medieval India. Waste of time. Enough said.

Unfortunately, your focus is just as alarmist and off-base. As you correctly point out, it would be silly to draw broad conclusions on the status of Indian women from 3 Miss World`s from India. Similarly, do you really believe it is fair to draw broad conclusions from one book on Sati? I know they have been a few instances in current day India but if I had to focus energy, I would focus on dowry, bride burning, womens education, female infanticide, divorce, widow remarriage. These are broad issues worthy of focus - for you to pick on some book on Sati by some idiot somewhere unfortunately diverts attention from all the real issues I have just mentioned.

Radhika,

Agreed, all that you have to say is true. But then haven`t you been a bit harsh. You have not even made a passing mention of the change that is taking place in towns and cities. Women are getting their due place. There have always been all sorts of books/views available and people chose what they wanted to read. I do not see anything wrong in that. I have read books from Gita Press, Gorakhpur..but they have been Ramacharita Manas,Bhagwat Gita and many such.Believe me these books are very good. While the ones` you mentioned..I hadn`t even heard of them until now.

Certainly there did not exist purdah in Indian society nor is any native indian dress really good enough to become a purdah..thankfully.

Anyway a silent revolution is going on. Not amidst the elites winning beauty contests..but in our houses, across the strata of society...the working women..But if you are only looking at some states then yes you are right. But how long can they remain ablivious to their changing suroundings. They will have to change. There exists no other choice.

So come..have a cup of tea...

Pullu

Below is another example of the shoddy and disrespectful treatment meted out to women in India. I realize that this post is likely to result in counter-posts that will focus on the perpetrators and their motivations (I can imagine another India-Pak diatribe beginning), and (unfortunately) not on the victim. One side is likely to defend/deflect criticism away from the perpetrator (`Indian forces did it` argument), and the other gleefully picking this up as further evidence of the degeneration of the `freedom struggle` into despicable criminal acts. What will be lost entirely is the plight of the victim.

That will be unfortunate -- because civility is measured by how well it treats its most vulnerable citizens.

Read on...

Kashmir militants shoot women in the leg

SRINAGAR, India, Sept 8 (AFP) -

Suspected Muslim militants stormed a beauty parlour and shot two women in the legs in Srinagar on Friday, a day after a rebel group reportedly issued a diktat forcing Islamic dress codes on women.

The guerrillas, who raided the privately-owned Shehnaz Beauty Parlour in Srinagar`s Gunikhan district, also shot Mohammad Mohsin Sulemani, a male worker, in the legs, officials from a local police station said.

No one claimed responsibility for the attack, the first of its kind in Kashmir.

The attack came a day after the Press Trust of India said the Pakistan-based Lashker-e-Toiba guerrilla group had threatened to shoot Muslim women in the legs if they refused to wear Islamic dress, covering them from head to ankle.

Kashmiri guerrillas, spearheading an anti-Indian rebellion in the region since 1989, have banned the sale of alchohol, screening of Indian movies and other form of public entertainments as unIslamic.