Women in India: Are We Better Off?

Ms.Chandar,

sorry for misusing this space

Kabuli

i thought this was an article about women.

Re: fairdinkum

``However, wouldn`t you agree that the situation in which Muslim women of Pakistan (or any other Muslim country for that matter) currently live is at least partly due to the MEN dominated clergy intent on interpreting religious scriptures to the detriment of women?``

Yes, that`s true. In most cases religion is being abused as a weapon to ensure male dominance.

fairdinkum

Sure. Everytime any subcontinental matter is reduced to `1000 years of subjugation` by `Pakistanis` of `Indians`, I plan to bring up 1400 years of subjugation. It might do Afghan women reduced to begging to safeguard societal values some good, the tamasha in Afghanistan is the biggest insults to Islam one could imagine. It might also do good to those who believe Hudood and zina ordinances are required to safeguard society in Pakistan or those that believe that stoning women to death in this day and age is just punishment prescribed by the scriptures for certain situations.

Re NCW`s report, I don`t see why anyone needs to get defensive and abusive. As I said if Pakistanis choose to identify themselves with invaders, its their problem. If anything Indians on chowk are more inclined to argue the opposite on other occasions.

Its a reality that many present-day social customs are related to our history. In North India, many communities did impose restrictions on women as a means to protect them. I donot believe that NCW is using that fact as a `let` or excuse, because its obvious to us Indians at least that that invasion factor has been totally irrelevant at least for a few hundred years and its continuance(restrictions on women) is due to continuing blindly with traditions which reinforce entrenched `power-structures` (not unrelated to caste) in society. Its seems this fact is not obvious to many Pakistanis, given their own interpretation of history and obvious ignorance of whats` what in Indian society. There is nothing wrong in recognising invasions as one of the original causes, its best to understand root causes while tackling a problem.

An equivalent example, where I grew up in India, young women moving about alone USED to be frowned-upon, even professional college-going ones. The rational reason for this tradition was no longer valid, however, it persisted, don`t tell me Pakistanis cannot appreciate this? The reason seems to have been that upto even say 100 years ago? according to custom in that particular region of the country, a woman might be obliged to accept the `patronage`(all legal and overboard) of a higher-caste man who took a fancy to her. So avoiding such situations by observing restrictions on movements seemed rather sensible. Now recognising this core reason is one step toward eliminating its ill-effects, if any in the modern day.

So where on earth do Pakistanis and Vajpayee come in?

Sadhana

Rajunjua #67

``Male dominance has been/is a universal phenomenon. It has little to with religion. Most religions including Islam have tried
to improve things for women.``

Dear Janjua,

I agree with your statement. However, wouldn`t you agree that the situation in which Muslim women of Pakistan (or any other Muslim country for that matter) currently live is at least partly due to the MEN dominated clergy intent on interpreting religious scriptures to the detriment of women?

I do agree with the spirit of your argument that Prophet Mohammed (S) presented a revolutionary approach to free women from the strangle hold of barbaric men who had no regard for women as human beings. But since then (i.e. more than 1400 years), have the Muslims followed the spirit of that revolutionary approach?
Also, please refer to the history of religions to get an idea of the role major religions of the world have played in (aiding and abetting) subjugation of women.

sadna #65

Dear Sadhna,

Would you please clarify the 1400 years of subjugation matter for us?

Thanks.

re: Rajanjua

You give yourself too much credit...you, it seems, are in denial...we have no reason to hate Ghauri and Ghazni...those bigoted sons(they probably killed more Muslims than non-Muslims, accusing them of apostasy) caused more havoc and destruction in present day Pakistan and ravaged most women there, in present day Pakistan...and you are their progeny and the result of that, if anything you ought to hate those invaders from the north-west, from Kabul ...not Indians...it is only your desire of identifying with the invaders and not the invaded that prevents you from seeing the above scenario...if you take your interacts on chowk seriously, then I can only pity you...and anyhow, feathers of a kind flock together...so Pakistani fools like you can only interact with Indian fools...thus I am not surprised at your deduction...which is wrong...the Indian Govt. is an alliance called the NDA...the BJP did not get a clear majority...the BJP is not going to see a next term...the recent Delhi Youth Elections were won hands down by the filthy son of a dog party called the Congress-I...

In any case, uninformed idiots like you who make gross generalizations without getting the whole picture make me sick...you get an idea of the whole Indian population by looking at the NCW report?...so should I say the whole Pakistani population believes in honour killings because your assembly condoned them? I won`t because I`m not a fool with his ass stuck in his rear...go buy an objective mind, if they sell it in the bada, when they reopen it.

Kabuli

re: Rajanjua

You give yourself too much credit...you, it seems, are in denial...we have no reason to hate Ghauri and Ghazni...those bigoted sons(they probably killed more Muslims than non-Muslims, accusing them of apostasy) caused more havoc and destruction in present day Pakistan and ravaged most women there, in present day Pakistan...and you are their progeny and the result of that, if anything you ought to hate those invaders from the north-west, from Kabul ...not Indians...it is only your desire of identifying with the invaders and not the invaded that prevents you from seeing the above scenario...if you take your interacts on chowk seriously, then I can only pity you...and anyhow, feathers of a kind flock together...so Pakistani fools like you can only interact with Indian fools...thus I am not surprised at your deduction...which is wrong...the Indian Govt. is an alliance called the NDA...the BJP did not get a clear majority...the BJP is not going to see a next term...the recent Delhi Youth Elections were won hands down by the filthy son of a dog party called the Congress-I...

In any case, uninformed idiots like you who make gross generalizations without getting the whole picture make me sick...you get an idea of the whole Indian population by looking at the NCW report?...so should I say the whole Pakistani population believes in honour killings because your assembly condoned them? I won`t because I`m not a fool with his ass stuck in his rear...go buy an objective mind, if they sell it in the bada, when they reopen it.

Kabuli

PS: My post is not directed at any particular person or group.. I think this is an issue which should be discussed as a human rights issue rather than a political or religious one.

Thanks.

Re: Subjugation/exploitation of women of South Asia

Would blaming a particular race/religion/ethnic group/linguistic group be helpful in making progress towards a more acceptable human rights situation in this matter? Aren`t there enough critical/urgent issues, adversely affecting women of South Asia, which most South Asians, irrespective of their religious beliefs and political affiliations, find unacceptable?

I do understand that it is important to look at this issue in its historical context, but what should be our approach? A confrontational one which is geared more towards landing political punches at each other OR an all-inclusive one which may bring about some positive changes for women of South Asia?

Re: Sadna

Madam,

Its a whole lot more than 1400 years of subjugation and still counting. Male dominance has been/is a universal phenomenon. It has little to with religion. Most religions including Islam have tried to improve things for women. Women-lib thingee in the west is recent. If I remember correctly women did`nt have the right to vote in U.S. until the beginning of 20th century. If you want to change attitudes you need to educate people, improve economic conditions, etc. For poor third-world countries like India and Pakistan that can not be done overnite. It would require decades of hard work. The mentality in the excerpt from the article which I quoted in my post does`nt help and I think the author was making the same point. The article point out a sad and deplorable situation. We should look at it as human beings and not Indians & Pakistanis. If women in Pakistan are treated badly by Mullah Omars, that does`nt stop the rapes in India and all of this has nothing to do with Ghauri and Ghaznavi invading India.

Regards,

Amir Janjua

Agree with rajanjua.

rajanjua

If you identify yourself and other Pakistanis with invaders of past years named in the NCW report thats your problem. The sad thing is that if you choose look around you, you`ll see millions of women who need to be freed from 1400 years of subjugation.

Sadhana

I`m with Rajanjua on this one. Even if AD 712 was a disaster for Indian women, the country has had at least a century of British rule and fifty years of Independence to rectify things.

Moreover, if people were always thinking of justice instead of blindly following custom, then many problems of women could be banished without changes in the law.

-arun gupta

First of all religion does not depict the correct picture of religion, it only reflects the society and position of women given religious cover to prevent any voice arising against status quo.

I will give few examples.

1- Regarding 1/3rd seats reserved for women, all the arguments by Islamic parties like JI and JUI are that, it is a conspiracy of NGO`s to increase lewdness in our society. They are not saying it is Anti- islamic. So when they cannot use Islamic card, they are using Anti-NGO`s (West) card.

2- It is evident from Hadith and Koran, that there was friction in the family life of Prophet PBUH, his wives used to argue with him, etc etc. But that part of religion nobody brings. Why?

3- When a ``Sahabi`` (companion of prophet) told his wife not to go for Khutba in mosque (lecture), because he did not liked it (We are talking 1400 years ago). She told him, that prophet PBUH allowed it. He could not stop it.

4- When Umar RZAH came to know that prophet`s PBUH wives argue with him, he told his daughter (who was also one of wives) that Medina women have made your mind corrupt and you will be doomed.

5- Also women are as much responsible for their actions as men as far as religion is concerned. A wife or woman can take refuge behind her husband or father.

Crossborder trade of women, in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh is not uncommon, and is a serious issue.

I agree with Zehra regarding ``Chicken`` Husbands. But also our women are coming from same background and I think they are same as men.

BD as usual is right regarding strength of our family system, which should not be traded.

Few thoughts.

First of all why marry? The only reason for institution of marriage is related to children and their broughtup. If anybody sees it more than this, it is fanciful.

No children, no marriage.

If women want protection of men in the marriage, they have to realize that they cannot expect to be married and avoid the responsibilities associated with it, like bearing children (men cannot do that as far as my knowledge goes). Same for men.

Why I would marry a woman and stick to her, when 100`s are available and ready.

A woman might think, that she is so beautiful and charming, that a man would be attracted and stick to her. But all women are charming and attractive.

Crude truths regarding male/female relationship.

`` Humara dil toota to aahat bhi na hui,

Woh roothi to Quaaamat aa gayi`` (Sher composed by myself, of course inspired :).

Bahut ho chuka. Down with these male bashers. There are a lot of males who live a miserable life harassed by their womanfolk in India( I guess in Pakistan too). In maharashtra, males have found a `` Mahila Pidit(tortured) Samaj`` to protest against the ``julms`` of women on a daily basis. It is sad that no one talks about the tortured males now a days which are also present in large numbers. There is a huge conspiracy brewing in the hearts of these FCBs ``Female Chauvinist B....`` . Males of the world, unite to fight against these FCB before they kill you by the sword of their ``tirchi nazar`` :)))

PS Intended to be humorous. Waise I am ready to be tortured by ``katil ada`` of ``hasina`` anyday. No offense intended:))