Women in India: Are We Better Off?

This regards your statement:
Nomination of three Indian elite class girls for Ms. World titles cannot cover the misery that more than 80% of the women go through every day in India. Think about it.....

Thought about it, damn right !!
The only reason Indian women win miss international beauty titles is not for their brains or their good looks. It is for the same reason That venezuelan and latin american beauties used to win earlier.
bottom line : money and a market ripe for exploitation !!!
I`m talking about international cosmetic and fashionwear brands that entice women in the subcontinent to spend spend spend on beauty, with the promise that ``If the girl next door can do it , so can you !, all you have to do is be more glamourous, buy lipstick please !!``

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KRashid:

Sorry, there will be no sequel to the previous post. I will be out exploring nature and karuk paruk of leaves. Poetry will have its time later. On an ending note, I will never touch or even browse through anything that is close to Mir in romantic poetry. I`d rather look into Browning and Frost for absorbing the beauty of words.
Your verses had some influence of Mir. You could have consulted Ghalib for expressing your stance. He does an excellent job in expressing his emotions while merging different influencing factors. Please look into some fine verses from his Deewan.

a) Eeemaaaan Mujhae` Rokae` Hae` Jo Kheenchae` Hae Mujhae` Kufr`

b) Roaaen Gae` Hum Hazaar Baar - Koi Humaen Sutae` Kyou`n

Or

One of my very sweet and potent verse from Punjabi:

a) Heer Heer Kehndaa` Kehndaa` - Apae` Heer Ho Gayaa`

I hope the above will provide thee with enough substance to express your feelings to your better half.

PS: I have a tendency to write Oool Jalool and incomplete sentences when I am in a hurry. I will leave it here :-) [Smile]

Regards

Zahra!

You are mistaken although your advise is good.

I am not sixty but sixtiaised.

The poem is before my marriage.

For aristocratic taste to develop, I needed money and family support as a rotten youth. I have little bit of both now, but it is too late. My better half (Since I can never be better) and three kids tug me (in my thought), so I have to restrict myself to observation and thesis :.)

And however I increase my horizon, it will remain with this world and its people.

Otherwise increasing my horizon in my mind is called euphoria.

Don`t take my comment seriously anyway.

Never trust a stranger is a good advise.

One of the lady in my neighbourhood has gone to Germany through the computer, for a better future. Just a gossip or news.

With ): I was not smiling. It was a far cry.

Kresh0d:

Somehow, I could not resist saying what I will be saying in my following golden thoughts:-)

I do not like to form an opinion about a person by his/her views expressed in black and white, but some folks have a tendency to write what they believe in. When they do that, it is very obvious for an intelligent and insightful reader to see through the other person.

In other words, if these were the verses you`ve used for your wife, then Mrs. Rashid deserves a lot of credit. Standing ovation for her on accepting these pathetic verses -- an insult to romantic poetry. [Afsoa`s]

After reading your choice of verses, I can well understand why you wrote Post 62. Both the verses and your interpretation of relationships complement each other. Hats Off [Sarcasm Intended - I thought of spelling it out to save you from any Kush`t]

Lastly, please consult my next post for who to read and who to quote for romantic poetry. Oh, and do not irritate the ones who have special sanctity for verses by producing Khulee` Dullee`, Bae` Maa`nee and Fazool poetry.

Lest I forget, by worldly savviness, I implied experience and observation [Aren`t you in your 60s? ]If that is true then Sud Haif that you`ve been spending time in observation only than experience + observation.

Also a polite advice:

Please Use :-) for smile/humor/light-hearted point.

Please Use :-( for sad/afsoas-nak/negative point. Your hidden emoticon is not making any sense. Please make a note of it. It is important to be clear in written communication. That is how you will learn to be clearer in your daily dealings and communication and will Ahista Ahista start expanding your horizons.

Hope the above `golden nuggets` will be welcomed!

Regards

Zahra #150

If by wordly savvy you mean, observation, then it may be true.

I never had time in my life except studies and job. A routine for poor, disadvantaged, orphan of lower middle class.

Let me tell you my worst poem at the peak of my job activity.

``Yun To Mein Tere Liye Chand Tare To Kia Kahkashan Bhi Laa Sakta Hun``

``Laiken Mujhay Abhi Job Pey Jana Hai``

And:

``Yun To Tere Hont Gulab or Zulfain Nagan Hain``

``Laiken Mere Paas Time Naheen Hai``

Peace.

Kresh0d:

Well, where were you when the ``Saner People`` expressed their aghast ? A quick glance at your facts driven posts, makes one expect that you`ll at least be worldly savvy.

Haif

Sud Haif

Sud Haif

&

Sud Haif
[Thumbs Down]

Zahra #148

Saner people have said for a long time and I think it is true.

``It is difficult to understand women``):

I think it is.):

Kresh0d:

Didn`t you say that you realized the `recklessness` in your post ? If you did, then you are exonerated. Let`s leave it there.

I commented or I should say `harshly uttered` my disgust towards the thoughts expressed in that post, as they were simply insulting towards both men and women. Your comment was trying to speak for all, either from your observations or experience[I am indifferent]. I do not think you had the right[Or I should say anyone has the right] to do that. Others may have something known as `substance` in their relationships than the typical nonsense.

On an ending note, your example of head scarf was simply out of context. Please do not under estimate the intelligence of `few` readers:-)
What were you trying to prove there ? Respect ?
Somehow, I cannot stand this word in the context you`ve used. It`s a sham!

Please go ahead and heave a sigh of relief!

Later,

krashid #140 you write ``So that I can call a black, black, (and not Afro-American) and still respect him for his qualities and not color.``

News Flash! Hot off the Press!! Blacks stopped wanting to be called Afro-Americans about twenty years ago, and black has been the appropriate term ever since. So: you are politically correct even without trying and Martin Luther King, if he was still around, would have given you the Civil Rights Medal.

Radhika Chandar

I am happy that you read Islamic books, but very disappointing over your interpretations regarding ``Right to batter wife``, husband may use the stick to beat his wife. It is wrong to take one sentence from a paragraph, please analyze the complete parapgraph under which condition above sentence applicable.

For your reference and information ``Right to batter wife`` is applicable only

1) When wife is not obeying her husband to all legal rights on her.

2) Having or started illegal affairs with other men.

Under this circumstance firstly husband should say to his wife politely. If she obeys and stops illegal affair and starts a normal life then its O.K.

If she still continue her habits then husband has a right to beat her. At last husband can divorce and get rid of such woman.

Zahra!

Do you think, I am alive.

A person writing such a post must be beyond this world ):

Think some other punishment ):

Correction:

The Karyaa Karam word has not been used in the appropriate context, therefore the sentence sounds strange. I hope the ones who know the meaning can gather the premise.

I received a poem from a friend, few months back and was about to delete it to clear my email box. Then I thought, the Kuryaa` Karam (I think I remember the word`s meaning) of this article`s thought should be given its due. After all it is going to rest in peace in the archives of Chowk. So here is something to read:

KResh0d:

Thanks for spelling out the number of that post. Personally, I think anyone with such views should be buried alive.

That`s it!

Zahra!

This post is in succession to my last post.

I re-read that post #62.

And I think I was not outspoken but reckless.

Thanks for correcting me.

Zahra!

I went back though my posts. I think it is #62 which you are referring to.

I am not liberal. First. So that I can call a black, black, (and not Afro-American) and still respect him for his qualities and not color.

What I said in that post, I believe to be crude but true.

It does not decrease my respect for women which include my family members also. These things are socially determined, on which we don`t have much control.

Let me tell you my experience.

My wife wears head scarf. Since our Mullahs are so adamant about our women wearing Hijab. I tried to go out myself with Arabian male head scarf. And believe me I could only do it in Muslim shops, and not in other stores. I realized that women must be courageous, with commitment to do Hijab and take scarf.

Any way peace be upon you):

Kresh0d:

Peace ? There wasn`t any war going on. Was there?
I think there must be some misunderstanding on your behalf.

You`ve stated few points in your previous posts, which needed to be examined, dissected and then treated. I think the first two stages were accomplished to some extent, whereas the last one needed some effort. My use of the word `reckless` for your `that` post should not be taken casually, I meant what I said. I think it was a clueless post. That is it! [This is regarding your post where you`ve shown some grudges against women. I don`t have the post number, but your comments needed to be grilled]

Secondly, as far as outspoken tendencies are concerned, as I said previouSly--Hats Off!!!
[Pointer: Just do not get carried away with that]

Allah Baili

Kresh0d:

Peace ? There wasn`t any war going on. Was there?
I think there must be some misunderstanding on your behalf. [

Zahra!

Peace.

Why a poor outspoken simple person is a target of your wrath).

Kresh0d:

It seems my admonishing note went through twice...Koi Baa`t Naheen. The latter one should be seriously taken & the former one should be disssssssssssssregardeddddddddddddddd.

Shu`kriyaaaa`

Kresh0d:

That was extremely kind of you to admit your role in the conspiracy!!! Hats Off!!

[May we have more innocent and outspoken fellows like you, who end up speaking the truth.(Amin)]

On an admonishing note; your previous reckless comment on women seemed as if you were jealous of their inherent sweetness. I mean, you need to watch out here!!! It is never too late to mend your ways [My Guru G`s saying - tribe MM]

What if a woman comes forth and says the same thing to a man ? All the fake ego will be Zameen-Boa`s!!! Your `that` thought was not only distasteful but was also Ha`iraan Kun.

Please make a note of the above Pin`D-O-Nas`aih
seriously.

Thanks
! ! !

dbpaustxusa: I would agree that ``comparisons are odious`` and there is no need to compare ancient Greek vs. Christian vs. any other religion. Indeed, the ``differences`` between religions are complementary, not contradictory, and vastly overshadowed by their common message as I mentioned earlier. For example, Epicurus (referred to in your previous post) is said to have said something about how anger or animosity towards others is a sign of weakness, while a person at peace with himself and the world is strong. This is message is emphasized in virtually every religion in my opinion. Lincoln said something similar and equally profound when he spoke about ``With malice towards none``. As I grow older, the wisdom behind such thoughts (to be found in religious books as well) becomes more and more apparent. (Nietzsche, incidentally, did not quite appreciate this even as he referred approvingly to Epicurus).

I guess I better stop now, before Zehra or someone points out that we should be talking female issues here, and leave these deep thoughts for another day :-).

Peace be on you too.

Kresh0d:

That was extremely kind of you to admit your role in the conspiracy!!! Hats Off!!

[May we have more innocent and outspoken fellows like you, who end up speaking the truth.(Amin)]

On an admonishing note; your previous reckless comment on women seemed as if you were jealous of their inherent sweetness. I mean, you need to watch out here!!! It is never too late in life to mend your ways [My Guru G`s saying - tribe MM]

What if a woman comes forth and says the same thing to a man ? All the fake ego will be Zameen-Boa`s!!! In fact, Sarae` Kus Bul will straighten up! Your comments were not only distasteful but also were Ha`iraan Kun.

Please make a note of the above Pin`D-O-Nas`aih
seriously.

Thanks

Tahmed,

I won`t add to what I said as `improper` in your previous post regarding Greek religious traditions as I think it will be redundant to do so. I have made my point and hope you will see the reason of my doing so even while disagreeing with it, that is all I wish. In any event, I am not at all saying that you were incorrect, what you had written is a widely prevailing opinion in the Western world and is considered `self-evident` and Huston Smith also has sympathies on such a view even though he has always agreed on the most liberal and ideal interpretation of all religious traditions. I absolutely adore his `The World`s Religions` just as you did, it is a inspiring piece of work; however on this point I would argue that the master is wrong. Philosophers from the Christian tradition are the most prejudiced lot. In any event as you lined up a master to substantiate your point, let me try a game of one-upmanship :-). Please read the following comment.

Even today many educated people think that the victory of Christianity over Greek philosophy is a proof of the superior truth of the former - although in this case it was only the coarser and more violent that conquered the more spiritual and delicate. So far as superior truth is concerned, it is enough to observe that the awakening sciences have allied themselves point by point with the philosophy of Epicurus, but point by point rejected Christianity.

- from Nietzsche`s Human, all too Human.

Do you see the futility of such selective interpretation/quotation ? We can line up all our witnesses but the issue will still be there.

In any case I rest my case here, one can only argue so much, the rest is a matter for reflection.

All I wish is that each of us sees all religious traditions with `reverence` and `humility`.

Peace be with you.

D.

Zehra!

If women continue to keep quiet on their own issues, what can conspirators do):

Jay!

I think someone else wrote this post for you):

db #126 on Marco Polo and the Great Khan: I think the Chinese and Japanese tend to be not as uptight about religion as we South Asians (or Italians, I guess, in Marco Polos time at least, and today as well). Even today, a Japanese can be a Buddhist, a Shinto, a Taoist and a Confucian all at the same time, as can a Chinese. There is nothing contradictory in that, since all religions are after all trying to do the same thing: trying to get people to behave like humans and not like animals.

dbpaustxa #126: Thanks for your interesting post. You quote my earlier post as follows: ``Judaism came first and introduced the concept of a God who is concerned about mankind, thus replacing the Greco-Roman tradition of gods who were concerned about themselves only``, and say that this may not represent ancient Greece/Rome in a proper light. Actually, this statement was an attempt at identifying the essence of the difference between Judaism and the Greco-Roman religions. A single sentence of course can hardly provide a complete picture of three major civilizations (Greek, Roman, Judaic), to which our ``global civilization`` today owes such a great debt (as it does to other great civilizations). The above summary (as well as the other one-line summary of the ``essence of the essence`` of other great religions that I presented in my earlier post are not simply my views, incidentally. I am basing them on a summary provided by Huston Smith in his best-selling book ``The World`s Religions`` (I enjoyed reading it this summer): As Smith mentions in that book, while it is quite a short book it is in fact based on a lifetime of study of different religions and rests on sturdy foundations of scholarship.

Wherever there is a mention of Women and their issues, one will find irrelevant discussions being raised to distract the focus. This is either an intentional male conspiracy or unintentional male conspiracy. In short, the common factor is : conspiracy!

Note: I think Chowk has a discussion board where interactors can raise their irrelevant points. I suggest the conspirers should look into it seriously! [ I hope I do not need to spell out the conspirers] :-(

Tahmed, macgupta,pankaj, krashid, et al,

Though I guess the issue has diverged a great deal from the original thrust of this interaction, i.e. women`s status, I nevertheless am happy at the refreshing positive nature and a learning focus of your last few posts and would like to contribute a few words.

But first, a minor correction:

......Judaism came first and introduced the concept of a God who is concerned about mankind, thus replacing the Greco-Roman tradition of gods who were concerned about themselves only (and this had the practical affect of introducing an element of humanity and kindness amidst the cruelties of the Roman empire of those days);....

tahmed, such selective interpretation of religious/cultural traditions after they are long gone is fraught with errors and omissions. I happen to believe after some study that the Hellenic religious tradition was extremely liberal and humanist in character, thus resulting in the great spirit of learning in Athenian democracy and their great advances in philosophy. The point about cruelties of Romanian empire (which is more seen in 200-400AD long after the decline had set in) has little to do with Greek religious tradition or even with Roman one, it was a sign of a decadence of the greatest empire the world had seen thus far. Same points are made about violent nature of Islamic `conquests` in its decadent period. Hence let`s be more open and `proper` (I believe the only attitude human beings ought to have towards any religious tradition is one of reverence and humility)

Now a point was made by macgupta and tahmed about the `marauding Mongol invaders` and its effects on period of Islamic advancement in knowledge, I would like to add to krashid`s post. I think you are confusing two developments, i.e. decline and breakup of Islamic khaliphate(which took less than 150 years to reach nearly 80% of its greaterst reach) and the actual plateuing and decline of intellectual traditions under patronage of the Islamic khaliphate. Moreover the fact that Genghis Khan and his successors had taken over large tracts of the khaliphate by 1200AD (and later became coopted as a part of larger Islamic world) was by no means a `dark age`. One has to see the advancement of Mughal Architecture/poetry and its earliest incarnations in Balkh/Herat to see that there was no `decline` even though these power groups were now in the `dynastical realm` rather than `cultural realms and there was thus more violence/warfare and such.

What I wished to point here was a paragraph from `The Travels of Marco Polo` by MP that I am reading recently and I was pleasantly surprised to see the description of the Mongol state and Kublai Khan even though by that time Islam had started to coopt the Mongols:

..The grand khan, having obtained this signal victory, returned with great pomp and triumph to the capital city of Kanbalu. This took place in the month of November, and he continued to reside there during the months of February and March, in which the latter was our festival of Easter. Being aware that this was one of our principal solemnities, he commanded all the Christians to attend him, and to bring with them their book, which contains the four Gospels of the Evangelists. After causing it to be repeatedly parfumed with incense, in a ceremonious manner, he devoutly kissed it, and directed that the same should bedone by all the nobles who were present. This was his usual practice upon each of the principal Christian festivals, such as Easter and Christmas; and he observed the same at the festivals of the Saracens, Jews and idolators. Upon being asked his motive for this conduct, he said:`These are four great Prophets who are reverenced and worshipped by different classes of mankind. The Christians regard Jesus Christ as their divinity; the Saracens, Mahomet; the Jews, Moses; and the idolators,Sogomombar-kan(??), the most eminent among thier idols. I do honour and show respect to all the four, and invoke to my aid whichever amongst them is in truth supreme in heaven.` But from the manner in which his majesty acted towards them, it is evident that he regarded the faith of the Christians as the truest and the best....

The last sentence is very interesting. Was it real or really tongue-in-cheek, I wonder.

To krashid,

No, not at all TNT doesnt hurt me. I am indignant about the educated of pakistan who refuse to accept the permeance of TNT in every walk of life in pakistan. Many have said here that TNT is no more talked about, it is true, no need to talk about it, it has become part of pak way of life.

Just imagine K for Kafir, in the elite of the elite school. And the educated of pakistan refuse to see it and talk of peace. Jihad, yes I can understand from collective, not peace. The above remarks are purely for the collective pakistan, individual beliefs and views are a totally different matter.

Chowk an open forum is not the place to talk of ones private views, it is down right stupid, falling in love with the masks. Chowk is for talks from steady positions, if not exchange e-mail addresses and quitt. This a battle ground of ideas, to be debunked, plagiarists exposed and above all to play intelectual origamy.

regards and best wishes

Jay.

Jay!

Looks like TNT hurts you a lot.

Does Hinduvta also hurt you or you are typical bigot.

NEWS TO PAKISTANIS,

The following is from dawn

``To silence male chauvinists, I quote from Dr Hameedullah`s Khutbat-ul-Bahawalpur: It is part of history that some one thousand four hundred years ago our Prophet (PBUH) appointed Al Sayyeda Oom-ul-Warqa to be the Imam of a mosque. It is stated that prayer centres had an arrangement as we find in these days only in Malaysia, such that women and men enter mosques and offer prayers in their own section of the mosque.``

This is really news to me that in pakistan women are not allowed in mosques. Way back 25 years ago, all the big mosques in kerala in india had seperate sections for women. Poor pak women, and their ignorance of things in the other nation of TNT.

Re to Tahmad, Macgupta and krashid

Thanks tahmad, MacGupta and Krashid for contributing to the discussion.

Krashid, you are right. I should have made a clear distinction that it was about the people of middle east that I was talking about. An interesting parallel can be drawn between the Golden age of Guptas in India, Arabs in middle east, and Roman Empire in the west. All of them were brought down by the attacks of some barbarian foreigners, Mongols in case of Arabs while Huns in case of Guptas and Romans. But by the time it happened, the empires had seen their climax and were approaching senility and decadence. All three civilisations witnessed a spurt of creative activities in literature, maths and science at their zenith.The question that what led to the rise or fall of a society is very complex and needs to be addressed at various levels. May be some day I attempt to write a monograph on this subject:). I have an intuition that a civilisation seeks to perpetuate the factors that lead to its rise, freezing the social structure and making it static which becomes unable to cope with the changing times. Or it may be the complacence tha creeps in the psyche of rulers and people of a civilisation that makes them unable to perceive the threats that seek to destroy it. Or it may be something else. I know the above statements need some more elucidation but lets leave the task for future.

Cheers

Pankaj #115

You are confusing Arabian Empire, with Central Asian Empire.

Fisrt of all conquest of Arabs were almost complete before their emergence in science and technology. Iran was conquered by the time of Hazarat Umar i.e early seventh century, and so was jerusalem, Baghdad etc. It was the Ummayad dynasty which were very pragmatic people and sort of rulers in Arabia at the time of prophet PBUH and later Abbasids who put the groundwork for learning. Islamic rule has never been quite even in that area at that time. With all the peripheral areas undertaking nominal allegiance and frequent revolts and infighting.

There are many reasons. The Abbasid Caliphate was already decadent when mongols invaded. It was pawn in the hands of Turkish mumlook (slaves). Although, Mongol invasion has contributed, but we have to find other causes, as Mongols had also invaded Europe.

One thing might be that individuality, preservation and propagation of knowledge which lead to renaissance of Europe was lacking and people became more inward looking. As atmosphere of Europe was also very anarchic and not tolerant, so peace is not a factor, nor tolerance.

Until and unless one knows the causes of rise and downfall of a nation or group, one cannot say with certainty what were the causes of downfall of Muslims. One thing is sure, they did not kept abreast of latest development and became inward looking.

Going back to the article by Radhika Chandar:

If you study the history of the west. Any real womens equality/moment came after World War II.

I think this happened because the men were busy fighting the war, the women entered the workforce in large numbers. They started stepping out of the house and gained both social and economic freedom. After the war they were not willing to give up their freedom and the women`s lib movement`s got its mass following.

If south asian women want to change their lot they have to strive for economic freedom first.

Faruk

Pankaj #115: You are right in pointing out that the early muslims not only translated from Greek they also borrowed from India (the venerable zero I believe was taken by Arabs from India, and subsequently handed to Europe). The 500 year muslim rule in Spain was also very enlightened I understand - the term ``blue blood`` that is used to refer to nobility that persists to this day is I understand from those days when the darker skinned Arab Moors ruled in Spain.

You ask: ``What is your opinion about the fall of Arabian civilisation.``

I dont know enough to say for sure. Macgupta #117 points to Mongol invaders, and certainly being over-run by Mongols was no picnic. I think that continuation of absolute kingships (and the constant power struggles) had something to do with it too, as well as the rule of the Turkish Ottomans over Arab lands. On the question of Arab revival, I think most of them are doing very well, thank you, with their oil nowadays :-)

In reply to Pankaj -- one of the factors that played into the loss of earlier dynamism among Muslim societies of the Middle East was the Mongol invasions.

Though eventually most of the Mongol invaders converted to Islam, my understanding of history is that society that emerged from the devastation of the invasions was inward looking, etc.

In the words of one history article on the web :

The Mongol invasions, in fact, were a major cause of the subsequent decline that set in throughout the heartland of the Arab East. In their sweep through the Islamic world the Mongols killed or deported numerous scholars and scientists and destroyed libraries with their irreplaceable works. The result was to wipe out much of the priceless cultural, scientific, and technological legacy that Muslim scholars had been preserving and enlarging for some five hundred years.

-arun gupta

In reply to krashid -- we Hindus personify virtually everything, including the motherland.

However, our distaste for any idea that would split the country is exactly the same as those of the people of the US or Canada, even though these people do not personify their countries.

-arun gupta

Shandana #95

Dear Shandana,

Good answer. Anyway, I may be wrong but maybe we should be speaking of cheerful and happy things and should avoid all this depressing violence stuff :-)?

Just for timepass :-), here is a story about medieval times, Hinduism and women`s lib. which I quite like and which I once heard from my ex-boss, about the origins of the community he belongs to, the Sanketi Brahmins.

It seems a learned woman religious scholar a few hundred years ago had a theological disagreement with the other scholars in her community, which at the time was located somewhere in present-day Kerala. Unwilling to reconcile the differences, she took her band of followers, went up the Cauvery river and established a settlement on its banks somewhere in present-day Karnataka. The descendents of those settlers are present-day Sanketis with their own customs and traditions and language. My exboss told me, the Sanketi language in the present day contains a mix of old Malayalam(the language of Kerala), Kannada, the language of Karnataka and Tamil. Actually while searching on the web for more on this story, which I couldnot find, I see Sanketi listed as under the Tamil `class` of languages.

It would be nice if anyone could provide more authoritative information.
Well, thats womens lib. for you:-).

Sadhana

Re to tahmad

``the early muslims did indeed highly value science and learning, and indeed contributed significantly to the European renaissance ``



You are right on that point. As far as I know anything about the history, Baghdad indeed emerge as the center of learning between 7th to tenth century. Some of the early rulers of Baghdad provided patronage to wise people from all over thw world including a number of sages from India. The early Arabs took gigantic leaps into the field of science,maths and astronomy by assimilating the scientific advances of the other civilisations and contributing their own. Al-

zabr learned ``Beej ganit`` from Indians and translated the works of Aryabhatta, and Brahma gupta. What he passed on to the west is now known as Algebra. Arabs also learnt the number system from Indians, Geometry from Greeks and made their own significant contributions. The list is endless. In short, uncivilised and barbaric societies of Arab and middle east was completely transformed into a progressive civilisation in the course of a couple of centuries.

All this happened because early Arabs were tolerent and liberal and had an unquenchable thirst for knowledge. They welcomed fresh ideas, and interacted with other civilisations with an open mind. Gradually with time, followers of Islam became more rigid and inward looking. Their focus shifted from learning to conquering and forced conversions. Not many significant contributions were made by Arabs between 12th to 18th century. The civilisation became inward looking, closed to fresh ideas and intolerence for the other faiths creeped into it which exists even today. It was repeatedy used to justify the barbaric acts of marauding plunderers and butchers like Taimur, or Ghazanvi. What is your opinion about the fall of Arabian civilisation. Do you think the trend can be reversed in modern society if Muslims become more tolerent of other faiths and focus on learning. Why do you think the spirit of scientific enquiry present in early Arabs vanished gradually.

Cheers

Pankaj #110: You asked

(1) ``What is the relation between Islam, judaism and Christianity.``

Though not claiming to be an expert, and this is clearly a subject that could be extended into a PhD thesis, the essence of the difference as I understand it (based on reading some books on religion) may be explained as follows: All three are part of a family of religions that can be traced back to the teachings of the prophet Abraham (even today, hundreds of millions of muslims all over the world refer the prophet Abraham every day in our standard prayer - or namaz, in Urdu - seeking God`s blessings). All three share the same ``story of man`` - the story of Adam, Eve, and the various prophets. All three share the concept of a kind and just God. The essential differences are in the emphasis, I understand: Judaism came first and introduced the concept of a God who is concerned about mankind, thus replacing the Greco-Roman tradition of gods who were concerned about themselves only (and this had the practical affect of introducing an element of humanity and kindness amidst the cruelties of the Roman empire of those days); Christianity emphasizes the concept of a God who loves mankind, and wishes mankind to show love and charity to one another (and so we have the great Christian tradition of running missionary hospitals and schools); Islam emphasizes the concept of a God who has created a boundless universe and wishes mankind to learn as much about it as possible, and recognizes that it is beyond human capacity to learn everything (and the early muslims did indeed highly value science and learning, and indeed contributed significantly to the European renaissance). One can of course find other differences too (including obvious ones like the fact that muslims consider Jesus a prophet and not the son of God while Muhammed finds no mention in Judaism or Christianity which came earlier), but in terms of providing guidance in our lives, these differences are nothing compared to the powerful similarities between these three as well as all other religions.

Your other question: ``Is there a concept of ``Atma`` ie self or soul or more precisely ``conciousness`` in Islam.(actually ``atma`` is considered to be indestructible and it can only change its body form in Hinduism.)``

Muslims do distinguish between a temporary body and an eternal soul (like virtually all religions). In Islam the soul is tested once in life, while in Hindu tradition of course the soul gets additional chances, via reincarnation. Again, such differences are insignificant, IMHO, and certainly Islam calls for full respect for all religions.

re slink and zahra:

First it was ice on my cranium and now its a typhoon(and out of context too). I might as well go see my shrink at the nearest Starbucks.

Many thanks

-sac

WOMAN`S POWER

Love triangle` case unfolds bizarre story

The Times of India News Service

MANGALORE: The sensational and elusive `love triangle case,` which finally reached a logical conclusion with the arrest of the slippery prime accused in the case, Santhosh alias Santhu, in Pune on September 7, has all the ingredients of a love triangle. In fact, it was a crime committed to get rid of two birds with one stone.

For nearly 90 days, the case was the bane of the Railway Police. Santosh is a small-time rowdy from Gorigudde here.

In the final analysis, the crime was committed by Mahesh (who committed suicide), with the intention of achieving two objectives: one to get rid of his friend Naveen, who was harassing his wife Deepthi, secondly to escape from Deepthi`s harassment.

Railway Police inspector Kalaiah, who had supervised the investigations, told The Times of India that after Mahesh married Deepthi secretly, she was constantly pestering him to take her back to her house. They had their marriage registered using false witnesses in April and their parents were unaware of the marriage.

Firstly, in a most devious way, Mahesh got rid of Naveen and tried to make the world believe that he (Mahesh) had committed suicide. By this he hoped that he could live somewhere under a forged identity and that Deepthi would forget him. But in a curious twist, Deepthi committed suicide, on hearing that her husband Mahesh had died.

On hearing of Deepthi`s death, Mahesh committed suicide in a lodge in Kushalnagar. Unravelling the case, Kalaiah said, according to Santosh, Mahesh had planned the whole crime and he had only lent support.

On how the murder was committed, Kalaiah said, Mahesh paged Naveen (an electrician) to come to Kadri for a small job, and from there he took Naveen to Saripalla. When the three of them, Santosh included, reached the railway tracks at Kulshekar, both Santosh and Mahesh stabbed Naveen. Later, they used thinner to burn his body and discarded it on the tracks. This happened on May 31 this year.

The next day, both the accused went to Mulky on a stolen two-wheeler, dumping the vehicle they used for the crime in a pond. Santosh came back to Mangalore the next day. When he went back to Mulky, Mahesh had fled the place, on realising the police were on his chase. The second vehicle, a scooter, was recovered from a pond at Kottara Chowki and the pager (Naveen`s) from Santosh`s house. The weapon used to murder Naveen was also recovered.

Kalaiah could not explain why Mahesh committed suicide, but guessed he may have feared arrest by the police. In his suicide letter, Mahesh tried to put the blame on Deepthi`s uncle. Kalaiah said, Mahesh was trying to settle an old score and thus divert attention.

Santosh, a carpenter by profession, was working at a furniture factory in Pune, when he was arrested by Sub- inspector Prabhuswamy at Pune.

To Indians!

Can somebody of you answer what is the importace of Bharat Mata as far as religion is concerned.

Because one of the theory presented is we will not tolerate further cutting of Bharat Mata etc. (Although I don`t agree that Bharat Mata is being cut, it is that people of different regions want to have their own way. Geographically it is intact).

Being a Muslim, you know Muslims ruled Spain, and now there is hardly any Muslim there, but it does not affect our psyche strongly, because Muslims want to have their way of life and believe in God whereever they are.

I never understand abhorrence of Indians regarding rights for self determination and splitting of Bharat Mata.

Simply put, what is the role of land ``Akhand Bharat`` which for me is whole of South Asia in your religion.

Tahmad

I also have certain queries about Islam. It will help if you can answer some of them.

1. What is the relation between Islam, judaism and Christianity. How similar and different are they. From whatever I know all these share a similar set of beliefs except who was the final and the greatest messenger of God.



2. Is there a concept of ``Atma`` ie self or soul or more precisely ``conciousness`` in Islam.(actually ``atma`` is considered to be indestructible and it can only change its body form in Hinduism.)

Gotta go. See you.

Cheers

sac,

i was sitting at my computer when this roaring sound filled my ears, the windowpanes rattled, and all the papers blew off my desk. i thought it was a typhoon and nearly rushed off to tie my cat down, then i realised it was just the sound of my first reply whizzing over your head.

shandana

Pankaj #104 Thanks for describing the Hindu beliefs. I`ll check out the web sites you mention in due course. I remember reading somewhere that the core beliefs of all religions are remarkably similar and consistent.

Sac:

I will take the `disaster theory` in the same stride that you have intended. Just to let you know, there is much more to it besides taking this thought lightly.

``How about a sane human being regardless of marital status who gets there on merit?``

Either you have a hard time understanding the premise of an argument or you do not want to deal with reality. No one is debating on the validity of the the above thought! There is something else in the picture here. Please care to catch up on what is being said/expressed than bringing forth blanket and out of context statements. If it is hard to read `men` being analyzed for their behavior and attitude then be forthright. Koii Baa`t Naheen--It is will be easier to understand your reactions ( *_ *) :-)

Kind Regards

In reply to Asfand -- how do Hindus adopt new customs, who has the authority, etc. ? -- perhaps an illustration of an extreme case will clarify.

Let me define ``jati`` to be a group of endogamous people (i.e., who marry amongst themselves). A version of customs, laws, traditions are carried by such a group.

Let us consider the extreme case of change in customs -- conversion to Islam or Christianity.

Typically, individuals or nuclear families do not convert, an entire jati or large chunk of it converts. By whose authority ? It is a decision by people within that group. There is some religious teacher that most people in the group have made a joint decision to follow.

Likewise, there have always been Hindu teachers, revitalizing (or regressing) the dharma; and likewise, a jati or large chunk of it may decide to change.

In both cases discussed above, the jati may split, and people who did not accept the change and people who do accept the change may no longer perform marriages between the groups.

Hope that helped.

-arun gupta

Re to tahmed

If you are interested in knowing more you may like to visit the following sites.

http://www.hindunet.org/vedas/rigveda/

http://www.engr.mun.ca/

Re to tahmed #97

Well Ahmed, the basic crux of Hindu philosophy and beliefs is contained in Upnishadas. Upnishadas unambiguously declare that there is only one ``Nirakar, Nirgun Brahm `` (ie a supreme entity with no material form, and with no externally observable characteristics). It manifests itself through three main forces of nature or the trinity of Gods: Brahma, the creator, Vishnu the preserver of the order in the universe, and Shiva the destroyer. It is interesting to note that the forces of destruction are not considered evil, but only the other side of creation and hence a manifesatation of the same ``Brahm``. All other dieties are either an ``avataar`` of this trinity or derive their power from this trinity. Another important aspect of Hindu philosophy is the doctrine of ``Karma``. It says that `` Do your duty without caring for the rewards``. A person goes to heaven or hell depending upon the ``good deeds`` or ``bad deeds`` one does in his life. This is in contrast with Christianity in which one goes to heaven solely by believing Jesus was their saviour. Hindus also believe in reincarnation, ie a person who has not done enough good deeds in his life will be reborn as lower organisms such as insects etc till he achieves salvation from the cycle of rebirth by performing ``good karmas``. However Hinduism believes that there are many ways to know ``Brahm`` , by knowledge, by bhakti, to name a few. I do not have much knowledge on this subject and it is difficult to write all that I know. But the most important point is Hinduism urges you to explore truth on your own taking cues from Vedas or Upnishadas, but not to be bound by these. The holy books of Hinduism are only a collection of thoughts of revered sages through centuries and not binding.

Cheers

re Zahra #99:

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Don`t know about a sane man with a strong woman though....that`s usually a recipe for disaster :) (Look at our friend Billy). How about a sane human being regardless of marital status who gets there on merit?

re slink #100:

The teacher seems to be taking her job rather seriously. My reference to a manly demeanour was based on traits like ruthlessness,haughtiness and imperiousness generally associated with the alpha males of our despicable speceis. If a woman has to behave like a man to get the job then why complain if the society treats you like one? If your thesis about a patriarchial society doing these leaders in is correct then how do you explain the willingness of the same society to let them get there in the first place? Wouldn`t the `patriarchial` society be the clever one in hindsight? Get them there for all to see how inept they are and then get rid of them in a manner that is a lesson for all future generations not to repeat the folly. Oh my aren`t we geniuses!!

later

-sac

Asfand

I am sorry to barge into your discussion with Arun, but here is what I think on the issue you are discussing. The distinction between smriti and sruti texts is valid but there is another, more fundamental point. Hindus are not bound by any scriptural text. Hindu scriptures are just guidelines, to suggest. The spiritual quest is a man`s job. You have to search for your own truth, taking guidance as and when you require from the spiritual texts. Not being an organised religion, there is no concept of an `apostate`. There have always been different schools of thought and they have discussed philosophical points threadbare, but that has never encroached on others` right to accept or reject any philosophical point. So, any hindu is always free, in theory, to reject any social practice he/she considers evil/illegal/in bad taste. Hindus dont have the option of hiding behind `it is my religion` plank.

I dont believe in conversion to hinduism, as there is no `ism` here. It is a commonwealth of many beliefs coexisting, inclusive, and freely borrowing from each other.

The social rules and `laws` are decided by society itself and there is no authoritative `book` to decide about these. Manusmriti is just a book by an ancient author discussing his concept of social laws, in the same sense as `Arthashastra` is a book on politics or Vatsyayana`s Kamasutra is a book on Sex.

I am a hindu and I can tell you that Manusmriti didnot take any part in my marriage or in my family life. I am not aware of anything except its name. My marriage was done with vedic mantras, and other than that everything else was dictated by the social norms of the place I was getting married at, which was different from the social norms of my family in many ways. A very large numbr of Hindu marriages dont even have vedic mantras.

Re-Reply#92

Slink

I don`t think my friendly neighbours can derive any benefits whatsoever from reading the article by R Chander. I can`t fathom why she has painted such a gloomy picture about women ( not just Indian). Its articles like these that remind you of the well known adage - Auratein hi Auraton ki dushman hoti hain. The author is of course free to express her views. But atleast get your facts right. In any case my friendly neighbours do not have to rely on such articles to know about the status of Indian women. They have access to Indian TV Channels, newspapers and relatives living here.

Don`t you think slink,that today`s woman is more aware? Ready to fight for her rights inspite of so many societal pressures. Some win some loose. But I definitely feel that blaming men for all the ills plaguing women is going to lead us nowhere.

By the way, what made you think that I worked for an intelligence agency? I did not in the past,nor at present. Aage ka khuda jaane. Knowing myself there is not the remotest possibility in the future as well. So long!

sac...

`more manly in their demeanour`, what does that mean?

Sac:

It seems that you’ve been there, to analyze and review the `eternal feminine insistence` on reforming the wild ones!!! Sorry, I haven’t ever noticed this trait — therefore, I will rely on your esteemed observation! Thanks for sharing that perspective.

An Example: There are two ways to look at a coin. You see one side of the coin and I see the other. Both are related to the same coin, but it is the perception. Side One: The man did not know how to treat women. Well, he got a lot of chances to learn, still he did not try hard.
Side Two: The women who married him got carried away/his charisma totally overwhelmed them. As a result, their mind was overawed by their emotions. I have heard this quite a few times in this specific case. In general, I am not interested what was the driving force behind any woman’s decision to marry him. It may be: love, infatuation, money, power, status----whatever. I brought up this case, as these women were not from downtrodden families---still they went through upheavals in their marriage. So the writer’s [Radhika] stance on mistreatment of women in a certain class is untrue. The Feudal Lord had some charisma that people will dullo-fy on him. I remembered hearing that from my childhood(I had few very close family members, who were active in PPP during early 70s). I also remembered hearing/reading good feedback about him from the people of his constituency, but on the other hand, the inside stories were very distasteful!

On a relatively serious note: I am not pleading the case of South Asian Women Leaders to be the most capable ones, on the face of earth. Contrary to that, I am pointing out the inconsistencies and the false images set by the S.A. countries – mainly, by electing these women as PMs (This is what the damn article was stating). Personally, I’d rather have a sane man with a strong backing (a woman) be the PM and hold a balanced view than a woman PM, who is totally incapable of any perception, and to add fuel to the fire —- she has a poor backing (a weak man).

?

re slink #92:

History unfortunately is not as charitable as you suppose.None of the south Asian ex-Queens(and I use the term loosely) was a victim of a `patriarchial` society.Actually if you think about it Indira and Benazir were more manly in their ways and demeanour than some of the more male leaders we`ve been blessed with.And the dastardly tradition will continue in the form of Priyanka in the coming years.

Personally speaking I think women make better leaders than men due to their empathetic and consensus-building skills with the caveat that the leadership has to be won on merit not luck of the genetic roulette.

As for ``......we realize that size doesn`t matter......``, couldn`t agree with you more.Girth is definitely more important!!

later

-sac

macgupta #93 The Smriti vs Shruti distinction is interesting. I looked up Smriti on the internet and one of the web pages had this quote, presumably from the Vedas: ``Surrender yourself to the Lord. He will be your greatest help and comfort. The person who knows this is unafraid, does not worry and is free from sorrow.`` This is entirely consistent, incidentally, with the basic beliefs in Islam. So what are the religious arguments all about?

Reply to #93 for Macgupta,

Thanks for clearing my confusion. You were right on point. But I am still confused and may be you can shed some light on the following two questions:

1) Where does the rules (law) about daily life comes from? For example rules for marriage, divorce, conversion to hinduism, etc etc.

2) Who decides which scripture can be considered current and which scripture should be dropped because the society dislikes it or rejects it completely?

I am asking this because when I read Swami Harshananda`s website I get a starkingly different point of view from what you mentioned in your reply.

Asfand Siddiqui

Sacramento CA

dear Sadhana,

neither man, nor woman, just `inhuman`.

shandana

slink #92
Here is a wicked question :-). Those who indulge violence or kill for purposes of ideology, profit, honor, power or whatever, particularly in S. Asia, are they equally men and women, or...?

Sadhana

In reply to Asfand (#82), no one denies that the Manusmriti is a Hindu religious text.

What we do deny is that it (or any Smriti, actually) sets down the rules for eternity.

A Smriti -- literally ``remembered`` -- (which includes Manusmriti, Ramayana, Bhagavad Gita, Purana) is a text with an author and authority very roughly comparable to say, the writings of a major Muslim saint or scholar.

A Shruti -- literally ``heard`` -- (the Vedas, including the Upanishads) are considered to be ``authorless``, i.e., roughly analogous to the revealed nature of the Quran, and are what are eternal.

Smritis can be discarded or ignored if the community so decides.

What confuses the discussion between Hindu and Muslim is that Hindus see Shruti e.g., God is One, and Smriti elements (rules for divorce) mixed up in the Quran. So, if a Muslim extrapolates from his holy scriptures, he will think that a Hindu law book is equally binding on Hindus as Quranic law is on Muslims. However, for most part, Shruti does not prescribe behavior, social norms, etc. -- all these are in Smritis.

-arun gupta

woman killed in karo kari case? the `paramour` is also killed.
woman emotionally abused by husband? man traumatized by neurotic mother, rendered incapable of ever having satisfying relationship.
woman burnt to death by husband and in-laws? hapless man on the street beaten to death by angry mob searching for scapegoat.
girl gang raped by eight men?
boy (and 50 friends) sodomized and dissolved by javed iqbal.
woman beaten by husband? boy whipped by angry alcoholic army man father.
if the degree of emotional intensity at a killing is subject to the victims gender does that not mean we are only paying lip service to the ideal of `justice` by sub-ordinating it to our vested interests? as a woman, should i be more angry when a woman is killed than a man? should a liberal male friends outrage also be propotionate to the gender? he`s a man, but he`s shared the same conditioning i have, so he`s see red when he sees `woman` and just a `watery pink` when he sees man.
which is not to suggest there isn`t a problem. the problem is a human one, the issue adressed should be `human beings: killed the animals? now be the animals.`
the current wave of violence sweeping the world has nothing to do with gender. theres no method to this madness. think of the residue of wars, cold wars, almost wars, brutal wars, silent wars, natural disasters, and britney spears, and then tell me there isn`t a tidal wave of anger and frustration sweeping the world.

gumnaam...
what possible benefits could your friendly neighbours derive from reading this article? you make it sound almost like a treasonous act. were you ever in an intelligence agency?

sac..

`women leaders made it because of the men behind them blah`. smart women. didn`t actually have to do anything themselves, got all the publicity, and went into the history books as victims of a patriarchal system rather than as failures themselves. also, think proportions. aren`t that many female politicians, yet quite a few leaders. imagine what`ll happen when more women get involved. except, politics on a macro level just aren`t as interesting. having a firmer grip on the way life works, we realize that size doesn`t matter.

which is, of course, good for a lot of other people.

Zahra #87 I am not defensive on your basic point that women are too often mistreated by men in countries like Pakistan. In fact, one of the most enjoyable sights I have ever seen are women from the poorest segments of society in Bangladesh (which I have visited a few times) stand up and discuss microcredit in a businesslike manner (while hubby stands in the background minding the children). I do question the assertion (which is what you seem to be making) that BB was made PM in order to portray a progressive image for Pakistan: She was voted in first time because people had a genuine sympathy for what she had been through during the hanging of her father. And I dont think the ``elite`` women of Pakistan are any better than the ``elite`` men when it comes to caring for their poorer sisters. There are world-class exceptions like Asma Jehangir, but not enough and luxury-loving BB is not one of them. As for the Feudal Lord, I saw him once and the image of that skinny little guy being a Feudal Lord is still quite funny.

I am amazed at the outlandish conclusion that Radhikaji has arrived at, about Indian women. 80% of them are suffering daily. You seem to think that Indian womens`only claim to fame is their (Indian elite class) nomination to Ms. World titles. Infact India has produced many women excelling in varoius male dominated bastions. And mind you most of them do nome come from elite backgrounds but have made their place through sheer grit and determination. To name just a few -

1.Phoolan Devi - Dacoit turned Member of parliament 2. Kiran Bedi - Indian Police Service 3. Lata Mangeshkar & sisters - Music 4. Bachendri Pal & Santosh Yadav - Mountaineers 5. PT Usha - Sports 5. Medha Patkar - Social Service, 6.Arundhati Roy - Literature. You may also like to recall the contributions made by Razia Sultan, Rani Laxmi Bai, Aruna Asaf Ali, Indira Gandhi and others.All of those mentioned above have made a global impact. Don`t you think you should appreciate the fact that inspite of facing so many odds in a male dominated society Indian women are becoming bolder and emerging stronger.

As for the National Commission for Women, it has been doing a commendable job. Atleast the Indian women in distress have an organisation to turn for help.In any case it is not the job of NCW to ban the Geeta Press literature or those brought out by the Muslim clergy. The concerned state Government /Central Govt Ministry should take it up on thier end. Why don`t you write to them? Moreover do you think with the invasion of satellite and Cable TV into the remotest corners of the country ,the Indian women would care for such literature? They are not so vulnerable. Besides cases of wife bashing are not India specific nor prevalent only in the rural areas. Even the most posh localities are not devoid of this. Cases of men being bobbitted and married women running away with their paramours are on the rise be it a village or a metro.

Now turning to our friendly neighbour country(I would always like to treat it that way), has its own share of women achievers. Benazir Bhutto ( court cases not withstanding), Asma Jehangir ( I admire her a lot), Noorjehan, Reshma,Nazia Hasan, Marina Khan and ofcourse Tehmina Durrani ( I have read her `My feudal lord` twice.But are women in Pakistan as free as in India? Ask yourself Radhikaji.

Even Bangladesh & Srl Lanka boast of women heads of State. Superpower America has been unfortunate on this count.

I think we should stop shedding crocodile tears about the position of Indian women. rather we should think of some long lasting solutions in helping build a society which respects it women. Changes have taken place for the better, but we can`t expect overnight solutions. Lets be optimistic and work towards it.

Also learn to appreciate the achievements made by Indian women. I hope in future u wont write articles just to please our friendly neighbours.

TAhmed #80

You are right on point.

I am in a profession where I come across this society in intimate details.

Women/ girl friend beating, influence of alcohol, short term relationship etc.

Why a person should adopt a self destructive behaviour.

Mrs. Rashid trust me and knows, I will go with my children. We are trying hard to continue, from where our parents left us.

Not much choice for a poor egotist person.

Tahmed:
[Please care to read the last sentence in its entirety below]

In other words, leave the emotions for (poor)women :-)

Take Care

Mr. Ahmed:

Please go back and read the para on the mentioned article. You are being defensive! I never liked Benazir. I never thought that she happened to use her mind anywhere, be it her marriage, her career, her judgements, prudence and above all vision. Besides all that, I will always & always give her a standing ovation for dealing with the men in our society.I am just pointing out a dilemma that may or may not exist when it comes to a woman ruling a 3rd world developing country. I hope I am clear ?

Lastly, your example[US-PM vs Pak-PM] was the exact point grilled, roasted and then savored with harsh critque in the paper. I am sorry, but I am not at all convinced on your argument, with regards to, the above thought. It was a typical typical escape--counter argument with no weight.

I think sometimes it is better to step back and analyze rationally than emotionally. In others, leave the emotions for (poor)women :-)

Take Care

re Zahra #83:

So Khar Sahib took your classmate as his ``10th or 11th`` wife as you submitted and was mistreated. Pray tell me what was your classmate thinking? Does a feudal change her/his spots the ``10th or 11th`` time around or was it the eternal feminine insistence on `reforming` the incorrigible that led to her sorry end?

And did you bother to stop and think about all these south Asian women leaders and the only reason they ended up where they were because of the men in their families? Easy come easy go!!

later

-sac

zahra #83 I think the reason (poor) women continued to suffer during BBs time was due to BBs lack of concern for them, and it is not fair to blame Pakistani men for not letting BB rule (as the NYT article you mention seems to say). What the NYT article perhaps forgot to mention was that in the US even today it is unthinkable for a woman to be elected President. Does it blame it on the incompetence of US women or on attitudes of the voters here?

Poster # 61:

I wanted to pick on this post as it had quite a few deep thought provoking points in its contents.

The underlying message sounded so touching that Bae`Ikhtiyaa`r one can become emotional hearing about the `Muzalim`, men go through.[Tears]

``There are a lot of males who live a miserable life harassed by their womanfolk in India( I guess in Pakistan too).``

I think it is a little unfair on your behalf to assume -- you should ask the ones on board and get a voting before you declare, `you assume.`

``Waise I am ready to be tortured by ``katil ada`` of ``hasina`` anyday.``

Your above sentence can be construed in many ways, please clarify the applicable one:

a) Are you saying that you want to be among those men who are mistreated by women ?

Or

b) You are saying that you would like to be mistreated and be able to relate your story to the above mentioned male support groups ?

Thanks

(Comments)Part II

NY Times had an excellent article on Women PMs of the 3rd world countries, few years back. It was the time when Benazir was in power. The article ripped apart the third world countries trying to portray a false image of developed and progressive nations by electing women PMs. The false image was discussed, argued and concluded to add ‘ZERO Value’ to the growth and economy of these countries. None of these women cared to pursue the causes of fellow womenfolk. No one cared whether the poor women in the villages died of health problems during childbirth or barely survived. No one cared about those young women who had no way of pursuing higher education in their town/village. It was a grilling article and South eAST Asia deserved the wrath! I guess it is the damn irony, whenever a woman is in power, she is the most powerless person in our society and that is why: Behind every great man, there is a woman and not vice versa. [Reading out the quote from my bookmark – Shall I discard it or keep it? Still deciding……].

Few years back, on a trip to back home--I happened to dine with one of Ammi’s old colleague from college. The lady was a politician, hailing from a feudal breed. It was a reunion after 30 years, therefore the guests were Humaa` Tun Gosh—listening to her accomplishments(Ahem Ahem). Her views on women’s education were amazingly beautiful.[Thumbs Down] She’d rather have ignorant women in her constituency than push them for education. It was preferred to have those women as servants and maids than learning Alif, Bae’ Pae’ [Every time I think of this person, I cannot resist my dislike and disgust]

None of the women who came into power in Pakistan……Benazir, Abida Hussain and the others, cared to focus on women`s education and health. I think, for them, it was such a major achievement to be the PM or in Senate/National Assembly – that they had it! Or probably they had other problems: dealing with uncouth and uncivilized men and could not find time to focus on above-mentioned petty matters.
May be!
Or
May be not! Different Priorities!

On another note, the author has talked about a certain class of women who are maltreated and I am guessing her story revolves around women from lower or middle class. I feel like stating some interesting cases from Iss Paa’r[Enough of Uss Paa’r]

a) What about the maltreatment of the `elite – an insult to the word--elite` class?

b) Secondly, do you think women who have the education and the power to stand on their own, never come across maltreatment?

How many times Benazir Bhutto was mistreated by her `chivalrous` husband? This gallant & chivalrous man was famous for hitting his wife, an acting PM, in public. This incidence caught the attention of foreign media and was written in black and white. What was that ?

Has anyone cared to read the story—My Feudal Lord? What is Tehmina Durrani saying? I am sure she never quoted any excerpts from my beloved Punjabi Poet, Waris Shah’s – Heer. If she did, I must have missed them as I threw the book aside after reading few excerpts. The Feudal Lord’s 10th or 11th wife [?] was my batch-mate in Kinnaird, Lahore. The girl was younger than the Feudal Lord’s daughters. Last I heard, she was also mistreated and was just an addition to the Harem.

In short, one cannot even deduce that maltreatment happens in a certain class or group. I think the inflicters can be from any class – they are just mentally sick and insecure `men.`

Probably we need more `female-doctors` to inject the medicine (thishhhhhh) slowly and steadily?! [Like a Pink Panther….Teenoa’n Teenao’n Teenao’n Teeneao’n]Swoosh Swoosh!!!!!!in the heads of the Bae`maa`r Hazraa`t ?

Any Takers ? I meanT female-doctors! ?

Some of the people are trying to disown Manu as hindu religious scripture. Well they are wrong. Check out what Swami Harshananda (well known Hindu Scholar) is saying about Manu. He accepts Manu as Hindu religious scripture. Please check out his website at

http://hindubooks.org/hinduqa/ch1.htm

Check out answer to question number 5.

Asfand Siddiqui

Sacramento CA

krashid #62 you write ``Why I would marry a woman and stick to her, when 100`s are available and ready.``

I assume that this was written behind closed doors to ensure that Mrs. krashid does not by chance learn about your private fantasies.

You wrote,

``Some of these books are titled as `Musalman Biwi` and `Mian Biwi Ke Haqooq`. One of these books even has a chapter, `Right to Batter Wife` which reads, ``husband may use the stick to beat the wife but he should avoid hitting her on the face or cause deep scar.`` ``

True but only half. There are preconditions to this rule. Please check Surah Nisa (Quran) about the complete truth.

You also wrote

``The authors of such literature quote scriptures after scriptures to convey the message that a woman must treat her husband as master and herself as slave.``

Not True. Previlages and responsibilities go hand in hand. Please check husband`s responsibilities before making any allegations to Islam.

Asfand Siddiqui

Sacramento California

Your article makes some very interesting points. Our desi community always seems to be in denial of real issues and real problems, even real people! Like your example of the Miss World/Universe beauty pageants illustrates, our people always seem to focus on the appearance of perfection and status in India. Very few people think of the destitute and the suffering. Our community is unfortunately getting to the point where it`s all just a rat race to see who can achieve status and the esteem of the rest of the community, when no one gives a damn anymore about the rest of the community.

Radhika,while I cannot fully understand the repression that women suffer (being of the opp. sex) I do want you to consider an upside to this situation.

Perhaps a little background before I get into it.

I was educated in a liberal environment where I learnt that women and men should be treated equal.

With this prespective I went to the US for my undergrad and looked at their society closely.

To make a long story short, I realised that in socities where both sexes are equal, the institute of marriage weakens considerably. When two individuals start living together as husband and wife then over time they are bound to have differences of opinion. Now they compromise of many of these (as a team) until they reach a situation where none are willing to bugde. In such matters (since society here has removed the ``pecking order`` (if you will) ) the only recourse let if divorce.

Another reason why women in India have always had to compromise is due to living in joint families. In such cases if the women wants her way she has to change not only her husband but all the other family members also... which causes discorts.

The way I view the situation, i think women in India have always scraficied their own rights for the benefit of the family/society. For this I am ever grateful.

However, in doing so they end up killing their own desires/wants/needs and end up being unhappy.

But the grass in not much greener on the other side. Women here, value their own independence over anything and everything. hence the reason why the us has over 50% divorce rate. And what happens in the end... ? Broken families, step dads, mom`s boyfrinds and ultimately a miserable exsistance for all involved.

My belief is that women in the Eastern cultures choose to keep thier families above their own individuality and the result of that is that family life and structure in the east is much more stable and secure for the children.

My contention does not imply that men should be allowed to become wife beaters or burners. Just that there should be a some structure in place, where irreconcilable issues do not end up in divorce and the instution of marriage is somehow saved.

Urstrly, Rsaxena, fairdinkum and others, I look fwd to your rebuttals.

AD

I have a question for the author. One gets a sense from recent articles in the Indian press by prominent figures in the Indian `womens` movement, that there is a slight :-) turf tussle going on, ideologically.

On one side are those who are
a. the `traditional`(in terms of how long they have been active) activists, whose aims are allied to `post-industrialized dismantling of all traditional social structures since they are all unambiguously repressive in tendency`. The activities of these activists has been (in my view, thankfully)tempered with the reality that Indian society is anything but post-industrial and that dismantling tradition is not so simple or effective in practical terms.

There are others
b.those that feel we should be selective in what we aim to dismantle, we should be aware of the illeffects of the `other` approach, too and a bit more introspective and more informed about the utility or otherwise of social traditions.

c. maybe very minor players, but of nuisance value : the saffron-tinged obscurantists who say that every single social tradition must be preserved in all its glory nevertheless.

I get a feeling b and c get confused in the fight of labels(which I avoided by not using any :-)), a and b have basically interpersonal or political problems between them(which is sad since their end objective is essentially the same, the empowerment of Indian women)

The question is, is this reading of the `situation` correct? Sorry for the layman`s terminology, if I wasn`t ignorant I wouldn`t be asking, right? I hope to get an informed, unemotional and ideologically unbiased answer.

Sadhana

Ms.Chandar,

sorry for misusing this space

Kabuli

i thought this was an article about women.

Re: fairdinkum

``However, wouldn`t you agree that the situation in which Muslim women of Pakistan (or any other Muslim country for that matter) currently live is at least partly due to the MEN dominated clergy intent on interpreting religious scriptures to the detriment of women?``

Yes, that`s true. In most cases religion is being abused as a weapon to ensure male dominance.

fairdinkum

Sure. Everytime any subcontinental matter is reduced to `1000 years of subjugation` by `Pakistanis` of `Indians`, I plan to bring up 1400 years of subjugation. It might do Afghan women reduced to begging to safeguard societal values some good, the tamasha in Afghanistan is the biggest insults to Islam one could imagine. It might also do good to those who believe Hudood and zina ordinances are required to safeguard society in Pakistan or those that believe that stoning women to death in this day and age is just punishment prescribed by the scriptures for certain situations.

Re NCW`s report, I don`t see why anyone needs to get defensive and abusive. As I said if Pakistanis choose to identify themselves with invaders, its their problem. If anything Indians on chowk are more inclined to argue the opposite on other occasions.

Its a reality that many present-day social customs are related to our history. In North India, many communities did impose restrictions on women as a means to protect them. I donot believe that NCW is using that fact as a `let` or excuse, because its obvious to us Indians at least that that invasion factor has been totally irrelevant at least for a few hundred years and its continuance(restrictions on women) is due to continuing blindly with traditions which reinforce entrenched `power-structures` (not unrelated to caste) in society. Its seems this fact is not obvious to many Pakistanis, given their own interpretation of history and obvious ignorance of whats` what in Indian society. There is nothing wrong in recognising invasions as one of the original causes, its best to understand root causes while tackling a problem.

An equivalent example, where I grew up in India, young women moving about alone USED to be frowned-upon, even professional college-going ones. The rational reason for this tradition was no longer valid, however, it persisted, don`t tell me Pakistanis cannot appreciate this? The reason seems to have been that upto even say 100 years ago? according to custom in that particular region of the country, a woman might be obliged to accept the `patronage`(all legal and overboard) of a higher-caste man who took a fancy to her. So avoiding such situations by observing restrictions on movements seemed rather sensible. Now recognising this core reason is one step toward eliminating its ill-effects, if any in the modern day.

So where on earth do Pakistanis and Vajpayee come in?

Sadhana

Rajunjua #67

``Male dominance has been/is a universal phenomenon. It has little to with religion. Most religions including Islam have tried
to improve things for women.``

Dear Janjua,

I agree with your statement. However, wouldn`t you agree that the situation in which Muslim women of Pakistan (or any other Muslim country for that matter) currently live is at least partly due to the MEN dominated clergy intent on interpreting religious scriptures to the detriment of women?

I do agree with the spirit of your argument that Prophet Mohammed (S) presented a revolutionary approach to free women from the strangle hold of barbaric men who had no regard for women as human beings. But since then (i.e. more than 1400 years), have the Muslims followed the spirit of that revolutionary approach?
Also, please refer to the history of religions to get an idea of the role major religions of the world have played in (aiding and abetting) subjugation of women.

sadna #65

Dear Sadhna,

Would you please clarify the 1400 years of subjugation matter for us?

Thanks.

re: Rajanjua

You give yourself too much credit...you, it seems, are in denial...we have no reason to hate Ghauri and Ghazni...those bigoted sons(they probably killed more Muslims than non-Muslims, accusing them of apostasy) caused more havoc and destruction in present day Pakistan and ravaged most women there, in present day Pakistan...and you are their progeny and the result of that, if anything you ought to hate those invaders from the north-west, from Kabul ...not Indians...it is only your desire of identifying with the invaders and not the invaded that prevents you from seeing the above scenario...if you take your interacts on chowk seriously, then I can only pity you...and anyhow, feathers of a kind flock together...so Pakistani fools like you can only interact with Indian fools...thus I am not surprised at your deduction...which is wrong...the Indian Govt. is an alliance called the NDA...the BJP did not get a clear majority...the BJP is not going to see a next term...the recent Delhi Youth Elections were won hands down by the filthy son of a dog party called the Congress-I...

In any case, uninformed idiots like you who make gross generalizations without getting the whole picture make me sick...you get an idea of the whole Indian population by looking at the NCW report?...so should I say the whole Pakistani population believes in honour killings because your assembly condoned them? I won`t because I`m not a fool with his ass stuck in his rear...go buy an objective mind, if they sell it in the bada, when they reopen it.

Kabuli

re: Rajanjua

You give yourself too much credit...you, it seems, are in denial...we have no reason to hate Ghauri and Ghazni...those bigoted sons(they probably killed more Muslims than non-Muslims, accusing them of apostasy) caused more havoc and destruction in present day Pakistan and ravaged most women there, in present day Pakistan...and you are their progeny and the result of that, if anything you ought to hate those invaders from the north-west, from Kabul ...not Indians...it is only your desire of identifying with the invaders and not the invaded that prevents you from seeing the above scenario...if you take your interacts on chowk seriously, then I can only pity you...and anyhow, feathers of a kind flock together...so Pakistani fools like you can only interact with Indian fools...thus I am not surprised at your deduction...which is wrong...the Indian Govt. is an alliance called the NDA...the BJP did not get a clear majority...the BJP is not going to see a next term...the recent Delhi Youth Elections were won hands down by the filthy son of a dog party called the Congress-I...

In any case, uninformed idiots like you who make gross generalizations without getting the whole picture make me sick...you get an idea of the whole Indian population by looking at the NCW report?...so should I say the whole Pakistani population believes in honour killings because your assembly condoned them? I won`t because I`m not a fool with his ass stuck in his rear...go buy an objective mind, if they sell it in the bada, when they reopen it.

Kabuli

PS: My post is not directed at any particular person or group.. I think this is an issue which should be discussed as a human rights issue rather than a political or religious one.

Thanks.

Re: Subjugation/exploitation of women of South Asia

Would blaming a particular race/religion/ethnic group/linguistic group be helpful in making progress towards a more acceptable human rights situation in this matter? Aren`t there enough critical/urgent issues, adversely affecting women of South Asia, which most South Asians, irrespective of their religious beliefs and political affiliations, find unacceptable?

I do understand that it is important to look at this issue in its historical context, but what should be our approach? A confrontational one which is geared more towards landing political punches at each other OR an all-inclusive one which may bring about some positive changes for women of South Asia?

Re: Sadna

Madam,

Its a whole lot more than 1400 years of subjugation and still counting. Male dominance has been/is a universal phenomenon. It has little to with religion. Most religions including Islam have tried to improve things for women. Women-lib thingee in the west is recent. If I remember correctly women did`nt have the right to vote in U.S. until the beginning of 20th century. If you want to change attitudes you need to educate people, improve economic conditions, etc. For poor third-world countries like India and Pakistan that can not be done overnite. It would require decades of hard work. The mentality in the excerpt from the article which I quoted in my post does`nt help and I think the author was making the same point. The article point out a sad and deplorable situation. We should look at it as human beings and not Indians & Pakistanis. If women in Pakistan are treated badly by Mullah Omars, that does`nt stop the rapes in India and all of this has nothing to do with Ghauri and Ghaznavi invading India.

Regards,

Amir Janjua

Agree with rajanjua.

rajanjua

If you identify yourself and other Pakistanis with invaders of past years named in the NCW report thats your problem. The sad thing is that if you choose look around you, you`ll see millions of women who need to be freed from 1400 years of subjugation.

Sadhana

I`m with Rajanjua on this one. Even if AD 712 was a disaster for Indian women, the country has had at least a century of British rule and fifty years of Independence to rectify things.

Moreover, if people were always thinking of justice instead of blindly following custom, then many problems of women could be banished without changes in the law.

-arun gupta

First of all religion does not depict the correct picture of religion, it only reflects the society and position of women given religious cover to prevent any voice arising against status quo.

I will give few examples.

1- Regarding 1/3rd seats reserved for women, all the arguments by Islamic parties like JI and JUI are that, it is a conspiracy of NGO`s to increase lewdness in our society. They are not saying it is Anti- islamic. So when they cannot use Islamic card, they are using Anti-NGO`s (West) card.

2- It is evident from Hadith and Koran, that there was friction in the family life of Prophet PBUH, his wives used to argue with him, etc etc. But that part of religion nobody brings. Why?

3- When a ``Sahabi`` (companion of prophet) told his wife not to go for Khutba in mosque (lecture), because he did not liked it (We are talking 1400 years ago). She told him, that prophet PBUH allowed it. He could not stop it.

4- When Umar RZAH came to know that prophet`s PBUH wives argue with him, he told his daughter (who was also one of wives) that Medina women have made your mind corrupt and you will be doomed.

5- Also women are as much responsible for their actions as men as far as religion is concerned. A wife or woman can take refuge behind her husband or father.

Crossborder trade of women, in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh is not uncommon, and is a serious issue.

I agree with Zehra regarding ``Chicken`` Husbands. But also our women are coming from same background and I think they are same as men.

BD as usual is right regarding strength of our family system, which should not be traded.

Few thoughts.

First of all why marry? The only reason for institution of marriage is related to children and their broughtup. If anybody sees it more than this, it is fanciful.

No children, no marriage.

If women want protection of men in the marriage, they have to realize that they cannot expect to be married and avoid the responsibilities associated with it, like bearing children (men cannot do that as far as my knowledge goes). Same for men.

Why I would marry a woman and stick to her, when 100`s are available and ready.

A woman might think, that she is so beautiful and charming, that a man would be attracted and stick to her. But all women are charming and attractive.

Crude truths regarding male/female relationship.

`` Humara dil toota to aahat bhi na hui,

Woh roothi to Quaaamat aa gayi`` (Sher composed by myself, of course inspired :).

Bahut ho chuka. Down with these male bashers. There are a lot of males who live a miserable life harassed by their womanfolk in India( I guess in Pakistan too). In maharashtra, males have found a `` Mahila Pidit(tortured) Samaj`` to protest against the ``julms`` of women on a daily basis. It is sad that no one talks about the tortured males now a days which are also present in large numbers. There is a huge conspiracy brewing in the hearts of these FCBs ``Female Chauvinist B....`` . Males of the world, unite to fight against these FCB before they kill you by the sword of their ``tirchi nazar`` :)))

PS Intended to be humorous. Waise I am ready to be tortured by ``katil ada`` of ``hasina`` anyday. No offense intended:))

Re: Kabuliwallah

For the benefit of clarifying your puny little head:

In my different interacts over the last one year, I see a prevalant mentality of Indians to blame everything that`s wrong with them on the Muslim invaders of the past in general and Pakistan of today in particular. Its constantly talked about. Even in this article in which there`s no need for it. I think this mentality is in general that of the Indians as a nation. In the above article the excerpt is from a Govt. report, hence I said the Indian Govt. Since your bloody govt. is the representation of the largest democracy in the world, its fair to generalise to all of you-Did`nt you as a whole elect this moron Vajpayee and his sidekick Advani? Or was it a Pakistani conspiracy?. Did you get it or do you want me to write in Pashto for you, you khar-bachya. I`ll say again-get over this 1000 years subjugation/dark ages/slavery syndrome. If you term the era which gave you Taj Mahal as dark ages-there must be something wrong with you people. Now go eat your hajmola before you address me again.

re: Urstruly
``It is interesting to see that, when an article is published about India, how some Khatris start running scared.``

Just curious.... (a healthy curiosity, so chill.. :-)
What does the above mean (refer to, what the hell is going on ?)
...refresher courses, adult education ...wha ?? yeh sab kyaa ho raha hai ?

regards

re: Urstruly

I still don`t know what you are talking about ? Help me out ....?!?

regards

Radhika Chandar`s article is a pointed and balanced critique of the ugly side of Indian society. By the way, all societies have an ugly side, while the shades of ugliness vary from one society to another. Women, like Radhika (my assessment based on this piece), are needed to pave the way for not only women`s empowerment but for the creation of a just (and thus less oppressive) society in India.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

jay #42 The issue is the poor status of women and the criminal manner in which destitute women are often treated. The issue is not whether things are better in India or Pakistan for such women. The Indo-Pak conflict is a separate problem, and for the vast majority of (poverty-striken) people in both countries it is not relevant to the practical difficulties they face every day.

JUST ASKING,

The following is from nation of today, a set of demands by PML on behalf of women. It talks of `customary violence against women``. What the hell is that, now that all on this thread are libbers dating back to Ayan Rand, can any one post a response.

She demanded three months` timeframe for disposing of divorce (Khula) cases and said such cases are delayed unduly. She also urged the democratic forces to repeal the Hudood Ordinance and Law of Evidence, saying ``they are repugnant to women`s rights.`` ``All kinds of violence on women, including domestic and customary violence, should be categorically declared as crime, and stringent laws be enacted that no one can get away from acid-throwing, stove-burning, honour-killing and wife-bashing,`` she demanded.

Hi Ms. Chandar,

Nice article...agree with you cent percent...but I liked the kabab article too, I don`t think it was serious, so chill...lemme try to give a solution, futile as it may be. I think if women get educated at least on the primary level and get to know of their voting rights, the situation can be improved. When I say voting, not how their fathers, husbands, brothers or sons tell them to, but what women think is best for them, their children (if and when they have them) and their future. If women participate actively and not passively in elections, then the candidates will be compelled to listen to their voices. If the candidates don`t, then they should be made to realise that without female support they will get no where. At present I think, the political parties take female support for granted, given the patriarchal nature of our society (its different in Kerala I think, where there is a matriarchal system if I`m not mistaken, but todays article in the Hindustan Times has shaken that stereotype). Women`s organizations (not the sleeveless, bourbon sipping, bridge playing variety that arrive fashionably late and speak with a fake accent) should meticulously and vocally create a political manifesto and present it to the various political groups....we have a Democracy...it`s time we made genuine use of it.

regards,

Kabuli

re: Rajanjua


``So let me see, all the problems women in India have started
in 8th century. What in the hell is wrong with you people?
When are going to get over this 1000 years subjugation
syndrome. All this self-pity is unhealthy.``

Where in there do you say the Indian Govt.? Be clear fool...don`t generalise

Commies say that women are subjugated because of Ram...BJPs say that its because of the Muslims...Congress says that subjugation of one community by the other in the past is good, it reflects the composite nature of India and thus it strengthens the secular fabric of India...everybody has an bloody axe to grind

Re: Kabuliwallah

Forgot your daily dose of hajmola?

I read it. Nothing wrong with the article. Just that excerpt. Shows the mentality of the Indian Govt. They need to get over it. Should`nt go about finding root of every problem circa 712 AD.

http://www.research.att.com/

re:rajanjua # 44

You ass, go back and read the article again...Jesus

RE: Ranaransher # 45

I have always found refresher courses extremely helpful and I also beleive in adult education. So?

Wow...excellent. I am speechless. Completely agree. You brought on points that I probably would not have seen. Good facts. Yet, what can we do about it? Any suggestions?

reply: rchander # 28

what are reading of late ? ``liberalism for liberalism sake``, ``modernism for modernism sake``

``technology for technology`s sake``. india already has a whole gang with that ``rationality`` .

if you are in US please don`t come back. like i told you we already have too many.

nchiket

better throw off those coloured glasses.

Zahra #40,

Well said

Urstruly #43,

I hear ya :) They`ll do anything to divert attention away from their faults to the faults of others.

re: Urstruly

Pray tell me what you are talking about ?
Do you know what Khatri is ?
jis baat ka pataa na howe us baat kaa boliyo mati.

``They seem to have arrived at the following conclusion in the Prologue of the Report itself, ``in India, in ancient times, women had enjoyed an able position in the household and in

society. As the `queen` of the household, her position was envied by her

counterparts elsewhere. Unfortunately, constant invasions by foreign elements

from about 8th century changed the scenario to the detriment of women. Her

vulnerability to abuse by the invading hordes bestowed upon man a responsibility

to protect her and from thence developed the inherent dominant role of the male

within the family fold and her inevitable dependence on the male. Long years of

invasion and infliction of crime on her resulted in many protective measures. The

direct effect of this state of affairs was perforce, keeping women within the four

corners of the home and consequential enforced illiteracy which has been, by

and large, her lot since then.``

So let me see, all the problems women in India have started in 8th century. What in the hell is wrong with you people? When are going to get over this 1000 years subjugation syndrome. All this self-pity is unhealthy.

RE: Scout#39

It is interesting to see that, when an article is published about India, how some Khatris start running scared.

Indian womens libbers take note of the condition in a place where some have opted to live.

from dawn of today,

THE National Identity Card is usually taken as a permanent instrument of ``personal`` identity of the holder. Any change, if at all, may be necessitated only if someone changes the name or the name of one`s father is changed. This is true as far as men are concerned.

However, a women has to go again and again through an agonizing, time consuming and expensive hassle of getting a new ID Card when she marries. Miseries of an unfortunate victim of circumstances, beyond her control, are aggravated manifolds since she has to have a new card every time she is divorced or remarries, although her own identity does not change.

Now that new computerized ID cards are being issued, it is hoped the this vital matter would receive serious consideration and a card once obtained by a woman must be declared a permanent instrument of personal recognition irrespective of marital status.

This will be a small favor shown to the women many of whom are going without an ID card only to avoid the abject harassment.

Zahra #40, macgupta #37 #36
Very good reading, thanks.

Sadhana

Although the issues identified in the article are serious and worth addressing, the article in itself is neither compelling nor moving. It is a documentary of events with a misleading heading!

I do not see `men – the cruel ignorant ones` reading this piece and making a vow to:

a)Learn, how to treat women
b)Stand by their wives through thick and thin
c)Stand up for the rights of their daughters
d)Start realizing that women [their daughters, wives and sisters] have a defined share in all the family inheritance
e)Allow a family woman the right of divorce, if she is being mistreated or dislikes her husband

Laiken, the writer did care to analyze the root cause of a few points, for which she deserves credit.

- The missing component is: Next Steps?
- Why do we leave these Next Steps - figure out yourself ?
[I am sure the writer does not expect angels to land on earth and resolve the issues for the womankind.]
- Why is she is trying to wake up the ones who are dreaming of Dahi Bha`llas and Seekh Kababs?They will come back saying, that we treat our women equally and nicely.

- Shouldn’t it be a woman`s call first?
- Who can influence a society?
- A mother? Who bears a child?
- Who adds the most to a child’s upbringing?
Do not think for a minute that I am ignoring the father’s role, but it is the mother’s language the child catches first. On one of my recent trips to West Coast, I met my little nephew, whose mother is a Malaysian. The child is amazingly fluent in Malay and English than in Urdu or any other languages. The grandmother is performing the duty of teaching the kid Urdu and Arabic. Look at the influence of women in this little boy’s life. He will just start school in few days and will have another woman teaching him in his class. Please contemplate very carefully on the term: Influence!

Some Observations:

a)During my grad school, I ran into two Indian women who were pursuing their higher studies. Both of them were newlyweds, who grew up in India and came to US after marriage. Both of them were very adamant to complete their degrees besides being newlyweds. Their husbands had no interest, whether they received grade A or C. These women deserved a lot of credit for their patience and perseverance. One was married to a man[Lord Kaa`m Chor`], who never entered his kitchen - an engineer. It was his wife[Shreematee` Jee],who was supposed to fetch a glass of water or food for him, whenever he needed. [Unbelievable, in this day and age]. The woman rather than trying to mend his ways, ended up further Bigaa`ro-fy the situation. In this scenario, the culprit was her M.I.L. [as per the girl- I disagreed]. The MIL - miscreant, used to visit her son, twice a year. As she had only one son, therefore she wanted to make sure that Bahu Raa`ni was not mistreating her ``Aa`nkhoa`n Kaa` Taa`raa Toddler.``
[For the sake of clarity, I will use the term `toddler` for her hubby]

I was simply amazed/astonished/spell-bound to see the girl`s tolerance level. At times, it was damn annoying to hear her going through the pain of attending her classes, running home to cook fresh food before the Lord returned and making sure everything looked spick and span.

The toddler was in the bad habit of telling his mother in India regarding the time his wife gave him the breakfast, cooked the lunch and served the dinner. The girl was under a lot of pressure due to all these things and was trying to juggle between her school and home [basically, the toddler]. Besides all this nonsense, she was a very hardworking woman and did well in her studies. My suggestion to fall sick occasionally and other Nazuk` Unda`meeyaa`n never worked, the fellow was indifferent & insensitive. If she were ever late or sick, he would make her feel guilty that his mother would never give priority to herself. It took her sometime, but she kind of brought him down to earth from Lord Kaa`m Chor`s Level to Lord Human Being. [Her % of success was 60:40). It took her few years, but being vocal added to her better understanding with Lord Kaa`m Chor husband.

b)A very traditional Indian girl, got married in a blindly traditional manner. The family interviewed and scrutinized a guy [Indian - born and bred in US] for their daughter. They were told that he was at a managerial position in US. She [a qualified engineer] ended up marrying him and came to US. When she tried to find out his occupation, it was something that neither she nor her family could ever imagine--the guy had a background in engineering, but was working in his father’s apartment complex, as a maintenance person. First of all, she took few months to reconcile with the idea. Secondly, she could not talk to her parents about it, for they may get a shock. Thirdly, her plan to pursue higher education got postponed. Her father-in-law [An insult to Godfather] was a control freak. He had a very bad influence on his son and other family, in general. Being an extremely selfish and cruel man, he would torture the couple in many ways: the son was never paid in his entire life, he was kind of a slave and the daughter-in-law was not allowed to spend a penny. After a lot of arguments and tussles, the girl ended up going for her MBA. Besides the husband`s attempt to leave his father’s business, the guy could not find another job as he’d been out of his field for a very long time[more than a decade or so]. As this couple lived with the guy’s parents and other family, therefore they had no other way of survival than to tolerate the maltreatment. After she finished her studies, she got a job and tried to take her husband out of his father’s influence. It was a very traumatic period for this girl and her family in India, but her perseverance to make her marriage work was commendable. On one occasion, the girl was beaten/kicked by her father-in-law just because she asked,`if she could go to a bank with her husband first, and then to the party the whole family was supposed to go.` This amazing young woman did not let go of this ruthless act and took a stand, by calling 911. The police came and a case was registered. The husband was forced to pressurize the wife to withdraw the case and divorce her. He refused to follow any instructions [It took him sometime to wake up] after seeing his father’s behavior. Finally, they ended up moving out of that Munhoos house and are fine now. The couple meets the guy’s parents, but the girl can never forgive and forget the past nightmares. I had hardly known her for a couple of years, when the horrific episode took place. I wanted to narrate this episode for various reasons:

a)The woman’s strength
b)The woman’s holding onto her traditional views [Which I found to be very bizarre in the prevalent circumstances, but respected as an individual’s approach]
c)The woman’s standing up for herself and making her very turbulent life a haven

In general, the atrocities happened and will keep on happening. Unless a woman does not stand up for herself, she is never going to realize--what is meant by taking a stand in life and learning from it. Parents, siblings, friends, peers and relatives matter a lot for emotional support – Laiken, they cannot decide for her or think for her.

No one can, except for the woman herself!

Rsaxena #29,

Are you related to Jay?

You`re beginning to sound like him.

RSaxena - iforget the reply # but -

``We don`t need to be reminded...we need some action to fix the problems.``

To htat dubious note let me add - and ????

regarding the article - everyone contributes how they see fit.

regarding women - they do face the same problems discrimination/physical/mental-abuse/whatnots

to/of varying degree all over the world - even here. To be able to help even one of them going thru that hell - counts. You dont ness have to go to India/Pak to do your good deed for the day. Or - just sitting on the fence and recognizing the need for ``action`` is counted as one these days??

In another article, Madhu Kishwar points out :

http://www.freespeech.org/manushi/115/madhu.html

``When [Indian] women demean themselves in ways currently approved by the West, nobody is particularly upset.``

The whole article is worth reading.

-arun gupta

Folks,

Here is an Indian woman explaining the irrelevance of the Manusmriti to Hindu life :

http://www.freespeech.org/manushi/117/manusmriti.html

Her argument is that Hindus have almost never been ruled by the Manusmriti, or by any set of textual laws; instead laws varied by community, locality, jati, family.

The British in their search for a single authoritative source to rule Hindus by brought about the myth that Hindus were governed by the Manusmriti.

To whet your appetite for the above article :

In the late 18th century, the British began to study the ancient shastras to develop a set of legal principles that would assist them in adjudicating disputes within Indian civil society. In fact, they found there was no single body of canonical law, no Hindu Pope to legitimise a uniform legal code for all the diverse communities of India, no Shankaracharya whose writ reigned all over the country......

Perhaps more egregiously, in their search, the British took no steps to understand local or jati based customary law or the way in which every community – no matter how wealthy or poor – regulated its own internal affairs through jati or biradari panchayats, without seeking permission or validation from any higher authority. The power to introduce a new custom, or change existing practices, rested in large part within each community. Any individual or group respected within that biradari could initiate reforms. This tradition of self-governance is what accounts for the vast diversity of cultural practices within the subcontinent......



In order to arrive at a definitive version of the Indian legal system that would mainly be useful for them, the East India Company began to recruit and train pandits for its own service. In 1772, Warren Hastings hired a group of eleven pandits to cooperate with the Company in the creation of a new digest of Hindu law that would govern civil disputes in the British courts....

This codification still could not put an end to the conflicts of opinion....

The resulting confusions and reports of corruption led William Jones to work on a more `definitive` code of Hindu law, as a reference work for Europeans in India. Jones` statement says it all:

``I can no longer bear to be at the mercy of our pandits who deal out Hindu law as they please, and make it at reasonable rates, when they cannot find it ready made.`` (Derret, p. 244)

He was determined that the British should administer to the Indian people the best shastric law that could be discovered. Jones went on to translate Manusmriti. It became one of the most favoured texts of the British. A policy decision was taken at the highest levels in the India Office to keep this particular document in circulation and project it as the fountainhead of Hindu jurisprudence, for the purpose of perpetuating the illusion that the British were merely enforcing the shastric injunctions by which Hindus were governed anyway, and that they had inherited the authority to administer this law.....

The British consistently promoted the myth that Hindus were governed by their codified versions of shastric injunctions......

Since then, the dynamism of customary law has been in constant conflict with the frozen and artificial Anglo-Shastric law......

Neither shastras nor smritis suggest that there exists an immutable, universal moral doctrine. Rather, they emphasise that codes of morality must be specific to time, person, and place, and evolve according to changing requirements.

For example, Narada states, ``custom is powerful and overrides the sacred law.``

Manusmriti itself stresses that the business of the ruler is not to impose laws from above but that,

``a king... must inquire into the law of castes (jati), of districts (Ganapada), of guilds (Shreni), and of families (kula), and settle the peculiar law of each...Thus have the holy sages, well knowing that law is grounded on immemorial custom, embraced as the root of all piety good usages long established.`` (Mulla, Principles of Hindu Laws, 15th ed., 1986, p. 23).

The authority to change or create new customs rests with not just the biradari but also the kula or family. Our smritikars repeatedly stress the primacy of custom and practice over textual axioms......

Discrimination against women or Dalits is neither inherently `Hindu` nor is it scripturally mandated. This is not to suggest that such practices do not exist. Sadly enough, the disgraceful treatment of Dalits and downgrading of women are among the most shameful aspects of contemporary Indian society.

But they will not disappear by burning ancient texts because none of the `Hindu` scriptures have projected themselves as commandment-giving authorities demanding unconditional obedience from all those claiming to be Hindus....

etc.

-arun gupta

Radhika:

Brilliant! I really liked your article.

Women have always been put down because of 2 reasons - the insecurities of men and the jealousy of other women.

Men are to blame 95% because of their own insecurity with respect to women. The more men interact with women at all levels and get educated, they are able to see that they have nothing to feel insecure about and that women are just as smart or just as weak as men. Given the same environment and opportunity a man or woman can perform equally well - even the traditionally gender specific tasks and roles.

I am against gender-based segregation practiced by most cultures.

Women are also to blame 5% of the time because I myself have seen women put down by other women primarily because of jealousy. The more women get educated this is going to change.

Bottom line, men and women are just plain human. My two daughters can kick ass as good as or better than any man in any culture or race.

RE: RADHIKA

This refers to National Commission for Women`s (NCW) report and its conclusions on the status of women in India. I am surprised that the NCW missed the Laws of Manu while compiling their report:

{THE LAWS OF MANU

The Laws of Manu represent one of the most ancient sources for our knowledge of early Indian social structure. Though it was probably written in the first or second century BCE, the traditions that it presents are much older, perhaps dating back to the period of Aryan invasions almost fifteen hundred years earlier. Manu himself was a mythical character, the first man, who was transformed into a king by the great god Brahma because of his ability to protect the people. The fact that the ancient Indians attributed the beginnings of kingship and social classes to the first man is evidence that they themselves recognized the antiquity of these institutions.

STATUS AND DUTIES OF WOMEN, FROM THE LAWS OF MANU

Women must be honored and adorned by their father, brothers, husbands, and brother-in-law who desire great good fortune.

Where women, verily are honored, there the gods rejoice; where, however, they are not honored, there all sacred rites prove fruitless.

Where the female relations live in grief -- that family soon perishes completely; where, however, they do not suffer from any grievance -- that family always prospers.

Her father protects her in childhood, her husband protects her in youth, her sons protect her in old age -- a woman does not deserve independence.

The father who does not give away his daughter in marriage at the proper time is censurable; censurable is the husband who does not approach his wife in due season; and after the husband is dead, the son, verily is censurable, who does not protect his mother.

Even against the slightest provocations should women be particularly guarded; for unguarded they would bring grief to both the families.
Regarding this as the highest dharma of all four castes, husbands, though weak, must strive to protect their wives.

His own offspring, character, family, self, and dharma does one protect when he protects his wife scrupulously.

The husband should engage his wife in the collection and expenditure of his wealth, in cleanliness, in dharma, in cooking food for the family, and in looking after the necessities of the household.

Women destined to bear children, enjoying great good fortune, deserving of worship, the resplendent lights of homes on the one hand and divinities of good luck who reside in the houses on the other -- between these there is no difference whatsoever.}

For further info visit :
http://www.humanities.ccny.cuny.edu/history/reader/MANU.htm

Re: tahmed

``The measures you indicate (toilets etc.) are measures of economic poverty. The measures I refer to (treatment of other people and of animals) are measures of spiritual poverty.``

Agreed. Strange thing is that most domesticated animals in the West have access to plumbing and medical care while many of our people don`t. So until we can take care of our people, our animals will continue to be second on the list.

Re: Ms. Chandar

``Isn`t it a place which is supposed to promote harmony within the South Asia region, rather than promoting hostilities between Hindu/Muslim fanatics?``

Uhhhh, NO!! From what I understand it is a place for open discourse..unbiased, brutally honest, and raw.

Re: aicha

``This article is anthing but jaded and does a very good job of reminding us of the plight of women in the subcontinent``

We don`t need to be reminded...we need some action to fix the problems.

Re: sac #13

For once, I whole heartedly agree with you! Down with these male bashers!

Satyavadi #19 I have heard of (and seen) similar situations among Pakistanis too. One more: Husband forbids family planning - Wife sneaks off to clinic and asks for something to prevent future pregnancies (reported as commonplace by my brother when he was a medical intern in Lahore).

RSaxena #18 The measures you indicate (toilets etc.) are measures of economic poverty. The measures I refer to (treatment of other people and of animals) are measures of spiritual poverty. It is the spiritual poverty of many among the South Asian ``elite`` that is responsible in large part for the economic poverty of the South Asian poor.

There are two very important matters of a women`s life where a daughter is not given as much freedom to take her decisions, as a son.

1. Career:

There are restrictions in many families on girls staying out of home,in hostel etc. I know of a cousin who was forced to join an engineering college after her Dad refused permission for her to study in a medical college in another city. Now the same Dad is looking for a groom and is ready to consign his electonics engineer daughter to housewife status, if the demand came from a suitably rich family with a decent looking son.

2. Marriage:

Specially in arranged marriages, the girl has little choice. In many families the guy is selected by the parents of the girl and a proposal already given to the guy`s side, without the girl having met the guy at all. The first time the girl sees the guy, is when the meeting is officially scheduled. The girl though theoretically has the right to reject the guy, practically the girl`s side is already committed and the girl if unhappy with choice, is mostly pressurized into consenting.

These are my observations from some people I know. I know a lot of families who give much more

freedom to their daughters in career choice and marriage. But I still wonder if the degree of freedom is the same as they have for their sons.

Any comments anyone?

Satyavadi

Here`s what giving in to Pakistani groups` demands on Kashmir will do for the liberation of its women. Sorry to corrupt your board with Kashmir Ms. Radhika, but it is relevant.

From yesterday`s newswires.

Lashker warns govt employees, women

SRINAGAR: Less than a week after the Hizbul Mujahideen opposed census in the state, Pakistan-based militant outfit Lashker-e-Toiba on Thursday handed out a death threat to 22,000 government employees if they joined the exercise. The outfit also warned women in the state that if they did not use the ``purdah`` (veil) while on the streets, they would be shot in the leg.

This message is for Rsaxena:

Are you a nephew/niece of Bal Thakray (the Hindu fanatic?) It seems that because of your ``Pakistanphobia`` only negative comments are generated from your side. Rather than taking a balanced viewpoint on situation around you, you seem to focus on negative aspects. Why are you so bitter about every thing?

I don`t know why the administration at Chowk.com allows your negative comments to be posted on its site. Isn`t it a place which is supposed to promote harmony within the South Asia region, rather than promoting hostilities between Hindu/Muslim fanatics?

reply #11 RSaxena

dont see the point in your reply either.

This article is anthing but jaded and does a very good job of reminding us of the plight of women in the subcontinent. You do have to realise that everyone tries in their own way.

reply #?? Satyavadi - 1&3&4 - good solutions but they just dont work : (

However as an aside - the sad state of some men being the way they are is more due to their upbringing rather than any other factor.

I mean - why shouldnt a male child also be taught to help around the house, make tea?? for want of a better ... - despite the servants. Wont make them a sissy and a lot easier to deal with.

Having said that - a world without tehm and hindi movies. Gawd!!

``No nation can rise to the height of glory unless your women are side by side with you. We are victims of evil customs. It is a crime against humanity that our women are shut up within the four walls of the houses as prisoners.``

Muhammad Ali Jinnah 1944

Pakistan should have the same concerns as expressed by the author. Here I have to say that I am really proud of my mom who has been serving the nation as a Doctor for more than 25 years ... and is currently a DHO which puts her in charge of an entire district... I can literally see the anguish of the maulvis and fundoos of her district.

We need to stop misrepresenting Islam and using it to our advantages... like Fatima Mernissi says ... its the male elite that have used it to their advantage ...

Pakistan ZIndabad

``No nation can

rise to the height of glory unless your women are side by side with you. We are victims of evil customs. It is a crime against humanity

that our women are shut up within the four walls of the houses as prisoners.``

Muhammad Ali Jinnah 1944

Pakistan should have the same concerns as expressed by the author. Here I have to say that I am really proud of my mom who has been serving the nation as a Doctor for more than 25 years ... and is currently a DHO which puts her in charge of an entire district... I can literally see the anguish of the maulvis and fundoos of her district.

We need to stop misrepresenting Islam and using it to our advantages... like Fatima Mernissi says ... its the male elite that have used it to their advantage ...

Pakistan ZIndabad

Re: Radhika

A well balanced article.

In many ways, I wish you had titled your article as ``Homos ad portas!``. Roughly translated from Latin it means men at the gates and the orginal comes from the popular Roman refrain, from the Punic Wars, of Hannibal ad portas or Hannibal at the the gates. In the modern lexicon, it means barbarians at the gates and given the message of your article, it would have been more apt!

Gender inequality is endemic throughout the world and I just hope that people will keep this in mind and not turn this into another mindless Indo-Pak mud slinging fest. It is a serious topic which deserves serious consideration and cannot be marginalized.

Ciao!

Geeta Press Sati edition or Playboy weekly? edition, any denigration, taking the support of scriptures or of market forces ought to be loudly condemned. Often the most effective counterarguments for such BAD things are found within the same scriptures and market forces, so theres nothing wrong in trying that out, too.

Please take time out and ask your household help or your vegetable seller what they have to face on a daily basis. You may realise its more a question of entrenched social customs, easy availability of country liquor and the modern rush toward consumerism where dowry is concerned than anything else.

Having publically-acclaimed role-model women achievers does make a positive difference, whether Kiran Bedi, Justice Fatima Beevi or Aishwarya Rai.

Where exactly does Karachi come into all this?

Sadhana

Important issue.

But why the reference to ancient and medieval India. Can`t we discuss anything without references to Ramayana, etc.

Women all over the world are worst off than their male counterparts. Of course, this differs in different places. One thing is common though. When humans moved from hunter/gatherers to home dwellers, farmers and built communities/societies women were left out. When concepts of property, estate, state were formulated women were left out and kind of got included with the men or as an extension of a mans possesions. This created some serious economic disparities which still exist. Of course, as labour intensive chores got associated with the physically stronger male this disparity only increased through industrilization, etc.

Forget ancient India and other such phrases (you missed this very popular ancient Delhi/Haryana phrase, I believe from the erstwhile Manu himself) like ``Dhor, pashu, naari, yeh sab taadan ke adhikari`` (meaning cattle, animals and women are entitled to being beaten).

The focus should be on present rules, regulations, conditions and social norms in India. Do these give the women folk equal oppurtunities or not ? And are the women availing them, if not, why ?
The basic issue is of economic parity with men. Emerging new economies afford women, IMHO, a lot more oppurtunities. A lot of the service oriented fields which do not require physical labour (DR, RX, lawyers, IT professionals, knowledge workers) are perfect for women. A lot of this starts with education. Just compare stats of American women to their European counterparts and see what economic parity with men gives women.

But this is kind of like saying that a woman will only get her worth if she succeeds in a ``mans world`` ie she works just like most men and is not a housewife. In India, most of the women are housewives. So how does one value their very useful contribution to a household ?????? The problem in India is it does not get valued at all.
It is quite obvious that economically independant women take less abuse from men than women who are not economically independant.

regards

I am always amazed by one commonality in all these man-haters. All men are evil except the ones in their comfy lives. huh........???? And when men say most women are sluts except for their sisters,mothers and wives they are laughed out of the room...huh????

Even their guru Gloria Steinem couldn`t escape the booty call at 66!! Try as you might you can`t get rid of us.........Sorry!!

later

-sac

P.S:Oh...and I agree with Jay about the article.

Here are ways Indian girls to get around some of their families` patriarchal norms. All from experiences of very close relatives of mine.

1. College going girl forbidden to wear skirts and jeans. (only salwar kameez allowed).



Leave home in a nice salwar kameez, reach some friend-with-a-liberal-mom`s home. Change into a nice skirt and sleeveless shirt. From college back to friend-with-a-liberal-mom`s home, change back in the salwar kameez. Return home like a nice demure obedient girl.

2. Married girl allowed only sari at in-law`s; allowed other dresses at Dad`s

a. Leaving hubby`s bombay for daddy`s hyderabad

Pair-chhuo-fy mummyji and paapaji with a nice silk sari , with heady perfectly covered.

Board the train, take the handbag and enter the train`s bathroom. Change into comfortable salwar kameez or jeans-tshirt. Ask toddler Bittu not to mention it to ``badi mummy`` or ``daadiji``. Carry just one other sari along for return from Hyd to Bom.

b. Leaving with Hubby and friends for Esselworld

Wear a nice zippered Sari with head covered. Sit in the car and pull down the zip to reveal jeans-tshirt or skirt etc. Coming back home, pull the sari on again and zip it up properly.

3. College going girl not allowed to visit discs.

Go to Reena`s house to stay overnight for group discussion with only `female friends` for impending exams. Rafuchakkar from there to the disc, with female as well as male friends.

4. Mom not approving of a boyfriend.

Make him a rakhi-brother and get him unlimited phone call and occassional visit rights.

Drop the bombshell on the day mummy-paapa have arranged the first ladki-dekhna.

Aaj bolo bhiayya bhaiyya, kal bolo saiyyan saiyyan.

Re: TAhmed

``Gandhi, I understand, said that to judge a society`s worth, see the way dogs are treated in that society.``

How about the number of:

- Flush toilets

- Malaria cases

- Typhoid cases

- Clean drinking water faucets

- Doctors/1000 people

- Days of uninterrupted power supply

I think the status of women in India is a mixed bag. On the one hand, educational opportunities, jobs, political opportunities, etc. are increasing. Health-care of women is improving -- mortality during childbirth, for example, has been dropping over the past few generations.

On the other hand, social ills like dowry and dowry-related harassment and abuse are also increasing, among Hindu communities and among communities of other religions that did not have these practices just two generations ago (e.g., my community)!

The women/men gender ratio is a good indication of how much attention is paid to women`s health and well-being, and the answer is it is still not adequate. By this measure, prosperity does not seem to be strongly correlated to women`s status. For example, Punjab is relatively prosperous but has a relatively unfavorable gender ratios.

The author has done us a favor by bringing us to examine all this.

BUT :

About the last (IMO stupid) paragraph in the article :

Individual achievements do not ameliorate the condition of the majority of people. But what alternative are you suggesting ?

E.g., even if 100% of the police force and armed forces of India and railways personnel were women, that would only be about 4 million out of about 500 million or 0.8% -- we could still safely claim that 80% of the women in India are miserable. In fact, I think if 100% of the so-called ``organized sector`` of the economy were run by women, it would still leave 80% of the women ``miserable``.

By celebrating the achievement of a few, we are saying that we are open to achievement by all. Though frankly, I think women judges and business owners and engineers and doctors and so on are more worthy of celebration than Ms. World.

-arun gupta

Radhika:

Like you, I am disappointed that the NCW starts its report with stupid references to ancient and medieval India. Waste of time. Enough said.

Unfortunately, your focus is just as alarmist and off-base. As you correctly point out, it would be silly to draw broad conclusions on the status of Indian women from 3 Miss World`s from India. Similarly, do you really believe it is fair to draw broad conclusions from one book on Sati? I know they have been a few instances in current day India but if I had to focus energy, I would focus on dowry, bride burning, womens education, female infanticide, divorce, widow remarriage. These are broad issues worthy of focus - for you to pick on some book on Sati by some idiot somewhere unfortunately diverts attention from all the real issues I have just mentioned.

Radhika,

Agreed, all that you have to say is true. But then haven`t you been a bit harsh. You have not even made a passing mention of the change that is taking place in towns and cities. Women are getting their due place. There have always been all sorts of books/views available and people chose what they wanted to read. I do not see anything wrong in that. I have read books from Gita Press, Gorakhpur..but they have been Ramacharita Manas,Bhagwat Gita and many such.Believe me these books are very good. While the ones` you mentioned..I hadn`t even heard of them until now.

Certainly there did not exist purdah in Indian society nor is any native indian dress really good enough to become a purdah..thankfully.

Anyway a silent revolution is going on. Not amidst the elites winning beauty contests..but in our houses, across the strata of society...the working women..But if you are only looking at some states then yes you are right. But how long can they remain ablivious to their changing suroundings. They will have to change. There exists no other choice.

So come..have a cup of tea...

Pullu

Below is another example of the shoddy and disrespectful treatment meted out to women in India. I realize that this post is likely to result in counter-posts that will focus on the perpetrators and their motivations (I can imagine another India-Pak diatribe beginning), and (unfortunately) not on the victim. One side is likely to defend/deflect criticism away from the perpetrator (`Indian forces did it` argument), and the other gleefully picking this up as further evidence of the degeneration of the `freedom struggle` into despicable criminal acts. What will be lost entirely is the plight of the victim.

That will be unfortunate -- because civility is measured by how well it treats its most vulnerable citizens.

Read on...

Kashmir militants shoot women in the leg

SRINAGAR, India, Sept 8 (AFP) -

Suspected Muslim militants stormed a beauty parlour and shot two women in the legs in Srinagar on Friday, a day after a rebel group reportedly issued a diktat forcing Islamic dress codes on women.

The guerrillas, who raided the privately-owned Shehnaz Beauty Parlour in Srinagar`s Gunikhan district, also shot Mohammad Mohsin Sulemani, a male worker, in the legs, officials from a local police station said.

No one claimed responsibility for the attack, the first of its kind in Kashmir.

The attack came a day after the Press Trust of India said the Pakistan-based Lashker-e-Toiba guerrilla group had threatened to shoot Muslim women in the legs if they refused to wear Islamic dress, covering them from head to ankle.

Kashmiri guerrillas, spearheading an anti-Indian rebellion in the region since 1989, have banned the sale of alchohol, screening of Indian movies and other form of public entertainments as unIslamic.

Even the Ms. World contest is increasingly seen as viewing women as objects, not as human beings. Gandhi, I understand, said that to judge a society`s worth, see the way dogs are treated in that society. I think the way women are treated is another measure of the progress we have made towards ``insaaniyat``.

Great article. Now instead of writing these jaded articles from the comfort of your wealthy (you at least have access to a computer) position, go do something to educate the women in the rural areas of India so they can stand up for themselves. Female armchair generals! Kinda like the non-resident Pakistani fanatics in America who chant and rant for Jehads but wouldn`t risk a bullet in their own behinds...

THE REVOLUTION

The only way for women to bring a revolution is by learning Karate and Dance. Using Karate chops they can beat their rights out of men-folk. If they (women) ever find themselves in a situation where they are over-powered by these two-legged hyenas, called `men`, they can dance their way out; as shown in the movies.

Radhika,

Congratulations on writing this succinct, and balanced piece. Unfortunately, all organized religions of the world have this preposterous and absurd view of women that you allude to, and complain about in your piece. I am disappointed to learn that recent trends in Hinduism are no different to other religions in this matter. .

One would like to think that sustained democracy and India’s recent economic progress would make people realize the vital role women play in building and maintaining a prosperous and happy society. Times of economic prosperity in any society provide a window of opportunity for oppressed and down trodden sections of the society to demand for a fair and equitable share and just treatment. This is a good time for women of India to fight for, what are, their due rights.

Once again thanks for sharing your thoughts and knowledge with us.

All the best!

slink #3, ``. the dominant image (thanks to vulgar videos from terrible movies) is of a scantily clad woman with her bosom heaving prancing around a tree while a man looking suspiciously like a chimp races after her (stopping occasionaly to somersault down a flower covered slope).``

You just summarized Zee TV in one sentence. Can`t stop laughing.

Thank God Pakistani movies aren`t famous or respected, else we`d be hearing sarcastic comments about Reema`s butt shaking in tight yellow pants.

Dear Ms. Chandar

I commend you for a fascinating article. I would like to express some thoughts which came into my mind when I read the article. Firstly, the current state of women`s issues discussions, debate and research in India is fascinatingly identical to the literature in 1960`s in England and USA. I will admit that the situation is a bit further back in Pakistan. Second thought was, till when will we sub-divide our society by groups so as to raise their consiousness? Since you are most familiar with India, let me take that direction, we have groups based on farmers, OBC`s, SC`s, ST`s, linguistic based groups, culture based groups, religious based groups and so on and so forth. Each of these groups are clamouring for attention, resources and laws. What is fascinating is how a society fractures along these fault lines, and people merrily switch between groups and demand attention or resources without realizing the humour or even the inherent dichotomy. What would a policy decision maker do when confronted with such a vast variety of group based demands and having only limited resources to satisfy them with?

The third thought which popped into mind was the impact of feminism on advanced societies. In european and american societies - we have singular situations of massive divorce rates and rise of single parent families. While fully supporting rights and fair treatment of women, one does wonder as to the direction where this will lead us. My only hope would be that our societies remember that the family is the important unit and there is a delicate balance between men`s rights and women`s rights. Having seen the state of western society, one does wonder and hope that India/Pakistan does not go down that route.

Crimes against women have to be strongly fought against, there is absolutely NO excuse for any kind of crime against women, none at all, religion, society, history, economic development, nothing. This has to be stamped upon and I even call for castration for rapists and paedophiles. I wonder if the author could comment on the fascinating similarity of western feminist thinking in the 1960`s and 2000 south asian feminist thinking, then compare that with the current western feminist thinking, and what lessons does she draw from this difference?

Sincerely

bd

MEN OF INDIA, ARE THEY BETTER OF

From Indian express of today

Woman alleges gang-rape, court calls her bluff

BIRAJA MAHAPATRA

NEW DELHI, SEPT 7: Can a woman member of a family be subjected to gang-rape by three of her elderly brothers-in-law at the instance of their wives in a two-room flat occupied by 13 people including her mother-in-law and husband ?

Such an allegation levelled by a woman against members of her in-laws family came up for judicial scrutiny during a trial and was found to be ``motivated`` in the absence of any corroborative evidence.

Acquitting the three accused, J C Chawla, his brother Devender and brother-in-law Purusottam Dass Gandhi, Additional Sessions Judge B S Mathur said, ``the prosecution has failed to prove that the accused had committed rape on the prosecutrix. But the motive of involving them in this case by the woman appears to be something else``.

The Chawlas and their brother-in-law, who were government servants, were arrested by Badarpur police after the woman alleged that they on the intervening night of October seven and eight, 1998, had committed rape on her with active assitance of their wives by successfully forcing her husband to come out of the room where the offence was subsequently committed.

The court wondered ``can in a Hindu civilised family, the sons and the son-in-law afford to commit a gang-rape in a two-room flat occupied by 13 people including five grown-up wards ?`` and said ``the answer in my opinion is `No`.

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Women libbers of India, go and get a life, join the save mosquito campaign,

India and pakistan, what a comparison, from dawn of today

Though official statistics show that 28 per cent of women participate in economic activity. This figure is contested by human rights groups. A recent United Nations annual survey has put Pakistan only above Niger and Togo as far as women`s participation in national development activities is concerned. According to an HRC report, women`s participation in the formal economic sector was negligible. It was a little over five per cent of all employees in the federal public service, but in the overall public and privates sectors, it was only about two per cent.

The women work only in health, social welfare, education and communication sectors by and large. There are only 30 women in the police department in Rawalpindi. they city has only two women judges. There is no woman in the magistracy or in the district administration.

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In india there is an entire police establishment called Womens Police. It is annoying to see posts, ``Oh yeah, india and pakistan have common problems``, Yes there are problems, One is hungry waiting for the food, the other has finished food and is complaining about the matress. Have some idea about the qualitative difference, think of being killed by the family to protect honour, while the police looks the other side.

1. Brilliant article but I think I have read it either in Times of India or Pioneer. The last paragraph is the addition for Chowk. Which paper it has been published in?

2. Women of the World, unite. You have nothing to lose except horrible men. (My husband happens to be a Gem.)

3. When a man hits you, hit him back ten times more and also with more force.

4. By the way, comparison of Dahibhalla and Kababs in Delhi and Karachi was relative. That is ‘better then’ and not ‘best’. Similarly, status of women in India is better then that in Pakistan but nowhere in comparison with Scandinavian countries.

5. To the best of my knowledge and that is pretty good because I have worked in this field of women development, these scriptures are no longer quoted in public or private life to lower women’s status. Rather most of the people are not even aware of these pearls of wisdom. As for Gita Press and its publication, the Hindi therein is so difficult that like me, most of the people may find the whole thing too boring.

6. At present, status of women is so low not because of religion but because of social conditioning that came from scriptures ages ago. Since, such saying in scriptures have lost importance over time, efforts should be made to change the mentality of men. Anyway, Manu who has written disparagingly about women at some places have also glorified women in his writings. Same is the case with other books.

7. Since problems of women are same in South Asia, why not have a Women’s Forum here in Chowk and fights are diverted on gender based injustice rather then religion?

India and Pakistan have so much in common, we have the same problems, and we fight each other instead of fighting the problems.
as a woman, i`d like to be able to claim the benign `value of life` perspective as something instrinsicly female. but i can`t. we can blame the dismal state of womens rights as a product of a patriarchal soceity but a lot of women are key players in the maintainance of the status quo. take the example of burn victims. in a significant percentage of the cases the mother in law or sister in law was also involved. sometimes, they helped hold the woman down while kerosene was poured over her. and waited, with the man involved, till she died or her condition deteriorated to the point that she could be taken to the hospital in safety with no danger of her living to tell the tale. we woman, we`ve developed the bad habit of yearning to pass on our bitterness to our daughters and reacting viciously when they show signs of wanting to break free. `i went through it` thinks a mother trapped in a bad marriage `so why can`t she?` as she pushes her daughter into lowering her expectations.
i`m not saying women aren`t victims. i`m suggesting a closer look at the silent perpetrators of cruelty. `boys will be boys` might well translate into `men will be men` as we grow older, but when will women change their own definitons of what it means to be a woman?
the literature the author mentions is indeed scary. but those people have as much right to voice their opinions as the liberals do. to some, our pleas for `freedom and equal rights` are scandalous and threaten the very fabric of soceity. to us, their demands for `put them in thier place and batter them if necessary` are dangerous and threaten our lifestyles. they have the right to their opinion. as long as they dont try and enforce it through violent means (which they sometimes do, and should be painfully punished for). the notion of freedom of speech cant be selectively applied. if you want to fight something like that, the approach should be to flood the market with books suggesting an alternative lifestyle, and let adult women who can read be aware of their options and responsible for the path they choose to follow.
the indian media (depsite the hype surrounding it on another articles interact section) might also be culpable for the way things are. half naked woman here, half naked woman there, sari clad traditional patni here, pious mother in law there, and another dozen half naked women thrown in for good measure. the dominant image (thanks to vulgar videos from terrible movies) is of a scantily clad woman with her bosom heaving prancing around a tree while a man looking suspiciously like a chimp races after her (stopping occasionaly to somersault down a flower covered slope). does anybody else see a connection between that and the objectification of women? that, in conjunction with the hardline literature and fanatical religous edicts you mention creates a fractured psyche that doesn`t distinguish between male or female but is simply a genderless mass of frustration, confusion and alienation.
blame does not lie with the male species alone, and it does not lie solely with the female either. we fail as human beings.

As the person who started the Great Kabab Controversy, so scathingly mentioned by you at the end of your otherwise lucid article, I would like to state in my defence, pso-facto, that:-

a) I have been born to a mother, had three sisters, now have a wife and a daughter. I now try y best to employ more women. I`ve ``done`` most of India and the world, and not superficially either. Through my eyes and theirs, I feel matters have improved for women, especially the middle class urban and semi-urban, more than matters have improved for Indian society as a whole, coterminus with a few factors like education and economical emancipaion.

b) But never mind the educated middle class. Look now at the so-called uneducated lower classes also, both rural and urban. Wife-beating in slums is no longer looked upon as the prerogative of the husband, the other women (and often men) fix the wife-beater quite well.

c) That women have it better especially in the ``B`` cities can be judged by a simple exposure to towns like Chandigarh, Indore, Pune, Vijaywada, Coimbatore, even Guahati.

d) Locations where religion or lack of education rears a head, like Srinagar, Patna, even Lucknow, are, agreed, sad cases. But that is for society as a whole.

e) So who tends to deprive Indian women, then?

One possible answer is that only those who can afford to, do so. The ultra-rich, conservative or liberal, tarred with the same brush, view women as a threat to their male succession theories. We can hardly blame society for this, can we, for the sins of the ultra-rich industrialists, politicians or ``ye olde families``? Applicable worldwide.

Areas where, traditionally, women are treated like animals, the Meos, some parts of Rajasthan and many parts of UP & Bihar. Applicable worldwide.

Religions where women do not have the same rights as men. Here, I think, all the major religions are equally guilty, the difference being only in degree. All religions give prime position to men. Muslim maulvis, Hindu pujaris, Christian priests, Sikh Bhaiyas, Jewish rabbis . . . eceptions apart, what does religion really do for women? Applicable worldwide.

So why blame me for kababs when you seem to have no reason to single out Indian women?

By the way, as a small aside, I come from the Merchant Navy, probably the last male bastion. A batchmate of mine took command of the TS Chanakya a few years ago and as the entrance exam was on par with the IIT JEE, found himself with the option of taking women cadets for both navigation and engineering branches. Well, over much resistance and not much support from any of the women`s organisations, he did so.

After they passed out, and he really had to ake sure they didn`t give uphalf-way either, he had another battle trying to get suitable employment for them. Again, every shipping company is ``manned`` by men. Here again it was the old-tie network of batchmates that worked, all men.

Now some of these ladies command ships abroad and possibly in India, too.

So was that an effort by men or by women or by both?

Yes, I am proud of the Indians who are breaking out. Gender is not relevnt.

80% of all Indians go through misery and more. Let us work towards moving all of them up, no? Who gives a billy-oh about 3 girls going for Miss World, nobody measures India by that yardstick.

Wow Radhika,

This is what I call a ``dood ka dood, paani ka paani`` type of article. You provided a fair, and broad-minded account of the subordination of women

by men. Thank you. This is one of the most balanced and to the point articles I`ve read on Chowk in a long time.

It`s unfortunate how the Muslim and Hindu male fanatics have twisted religion to suit their egos and superiority complexes.

Although educated women can break free from this subordination, my heart breaks at the thought of the helpless poverty stricken, illiterate women of Pakistan and India who face these problems everyday.

I still stand by my belief that men (except for t-bhai and some others) are the most evil animals

in the world. Maybe if men bore children, they would realize the importance of human life.