Negotiating Human Rights

jay

well uve admitted there are certain problems with India, problems of implementation as you call them and thats a start. However, those are the very problems that we are facing in Pakistan. I have no clue where your getting your impressions that we dont know our wrongs from rights, our legal from the illegal. As I have mentioned before, we have basically the same laws on the books that you do. Murder is illegal, it does not state anywhere that the murder of a minority or woman has any less significance than that of a Muslim man. The same goes for theft, corruption, whatever else. The problem comes with the law enforcers and the people in power who have influence over them. These elements are corrupt to the core and ordinary Pakistanis will continue to suffer at their hands. Now tell me how is the denial of justice to the family of girl murdered in an honour killing in Pakistan any different from the denial to a muslim family of their boy murdered by a well connected hindu in a slum of bombay? To me its useless to talk about laws when there is selective implementation.

to baloch1,

Implementation is important, but the concepts gives the frame work under which implementation takes place. World is essentially a world of ideas, if there are no laws, there is nothing to implement. Pakistan is in an ideological tugof war, and that is why ideas should be welcomed, what ever they might be. One should have the veracity and verve to discuss them openly, and it is totally lacking among the educated.

For example the vexed issue of honour killing. Who should be the arbiter of honour, who can order the killing etc. First and foremost is the need for ideas, the definition of good and bad, legal and illegal. In pakistan this is still not being worked out. Should the book be supreme, or should it be some secular human values, may be they are christian human values.

To come back to the central issue, indian problems are that of implementation, pakistan problems are that of finding a value frame work, the paucity of ideas, the conflict of ideas, the sheer hopelessness.

jay #70

jay my friend laws are no good if no one ever cares to enforce them or they arnt worth the paper they are written on. Do tell how many people were punished for babri masjid or the killings of christians and other minorities. The man who incited Babri masjid is now an important minister in the Indian government. By the way there are no laws in pakistan that sanction the killing of any minorities, ahmadians are proclaimed to be a non muslim sect but the law does not sanction there persecution as you seem to imply. However, as in India, our officials also turn a blind eye to all the laws and do as they please.

To baloc1,

Take it easy, there is a world of difference between what is in india and in pakistan. Babri masjid, we talk about, is there any one ever mentioning the temples destroyed in `` spontaneous violence in response to babri masjid``.

Read your blasphemy laws, it is reeking with hatred for the ahmadias.

In india the acts you mentions are crimes, in pakistan it is all a good days work for a true jihadic muslim, sanctioned, approved and glorified by law. Pakistan and india, it is chalk and cheese. Never say the two words in one breath.

regards

jay

jay #68

Before you criticise Pakistan, US or any other country check in your own back yard first. I love the way the Indians here conveiniently forget what happened with Babri masjid, the killings and rapes of christians in the western states or the killings of Sikhs in Punjab and Muslims in Kashmir. Not to mention the daily anti minorities rhetoric spewed out by politicians of organizations like the RSS and BJP. I will be the first to admit that we have serious human rights and religious problems in Pakistan, as this story demonstrates, but you guys need to get off your imaginary high horse too.

A HAPPY NEWS,

from deccan herald of today,

Controversy over Hindu prayer in US House

WASHINGTON, Sept 23 (PTI & UNI)

A US-based conservative body has objected to holding a Hindu religious prayer, arranged for the first time in the House of Representatives last week, saying that it ``tantamounts to sanctioning paganism.``

``It is one more indication that our nation is drifting from its Judaeo-Christian roots. Our priceless Western civilisation is derived from the Bible,`` the right wing Family Research Council (FRC) said.

``The US has historically honoured the one true Biblical god. Woe be to us on that day when we relegate Him to being merely one among countless other deities in the pantheon of theologies.``

``Our founders expected that Christianity and no other religion would receive support from the government as long as that support did not violate people`s consciences and their right to worship. They would have found utterly incredible the idea that all religions, including paganism, be treated with equal reverence.``

/// pakistan is no different from the US.

Re: Anamika

Very reliable sources + Gut feel.

Saima Shah #25

How do you know what is related here is true?

LEADING BY EXAMPLE

At times of sadness, it is desirable to look at the fate of the leaders. Nawaz Sheriff, a man on the ground has been convicted of hijacking and imprisoned for life, while four hijackers on board an indian aircraft were welcomed as heros. Bhutto was sentenced to death for plotting the assasination of a man who is in a previlaged position accorded by the military.

If this is the fate of the leaders elected by the people, what hope is there for the ordinary. What hope is there for the ordinary when even the educated dare not criticise. What hope is there when the educated want to palm off as Oscar Wilde.

Mrs. Mary Zehri,

I join others on the Chowk in expressing my sorrow at what happened and in commending you on confronting the man who was abusing his wife. The behavior of the police was disgraceful. I pray that our country is able to overcome the dark forces of hatreds, greed and oppression of the strong that threaten us from within, and that one day the great beauty of the land and the people of which you wrote so generously, can shine through. I wish you and your family all the best.

cheraym #59 If I have understood you correctly, you are saying that we form our views on what someone says are formed based on (a) our existing image of that person as well as on (b) the specific statements that person makes. That is generally accepted to be true, and I do not disagree. The point is that our image of a person is formed by his/her appearance and position in life as well as the substance of what he/she says. On the internet, we cannot see the person, do not know what he/she does in real life, and so forth. So, the statements a person makes stand or fall largely on their own merits. If you are interested in this subject, I recall reading an article on this subject in the magazine Scientific American (dated around 1998) that described studies showing how the use of email for communication has tended to democratize offices.

The horrifying tale of Ismail Zehri & his wife Mary has left me stunned and shocked.Not to say seething with fury. Not only at the so-called ``socially well known`` Kazis But at the corrupt,

inept,repulsive,Pakistani system.Violation of Human Rights in Pakistan is a way of life and I am indignant at the way both local & international communities passively watch the mass muder of human dignity.

Ismail Zehri and I are school friends and if I know a `wonderful` human being, that is Ismail. Always smiling, warm, courteous, and dignified Ismail is a happily married man. I have met his wife and she is more conservatively dressed than most Pak women. She not only wears a shalwar kameez but her dupatta always covers her head. Dignified and kind, Mary is the perfect mate for Ismail. It makes me mad when I think of the torture, a kind soul like Ismail must have suffered at the hands of the brutal police.

This is a classic case of `abuse of power` when the Kazis used their influence to harrass the Zehris instead of sending their mentally unstable brother to a psychiatrist.

I want the world to know, Ismail Zehri and his wife Mary are not the sort of people to interfere

in anyone`s life but Basma being a cousin sister, it is but natural to feel that protectiveness. I am outraged at the charges slapped on the Zehris.

Taliban, bin Laden and drugs are stuff Ismail and Mary read only papers. But I Trust the Process...

and I know(history has proved in the past) dictatorship and authoritarianism of any kind eventually crash and Truth surfaces.

There is Hope for Ismail & Mary, not because I believe in the Government or the Courts of Pakistan BUT God is watching us.... and HE knows the truth.

The truth is: Ismail and Mary are INNOCENT.

jay Thackeray #60:

Read posts #1, 7 & 8: on the JJ thread.

Please remember to take your prescription orally, not ...

concerned,

temporal

To Mary Z,

There is a place called Taxila in pakistan. It was the seat of a great University where studies of austronomy, ayurveda etc flourished during the Gupta, hope I am correct, period. Now read the pakistan history from pak.org, the official version that form the basis of education in pakistan. The easeness with which the history has been eliminated.

Then read the john joss thread, responses 1 to 4, and note the audacious confidence with which a famour quote has been appropriated, clearly indicating a prediliction.

May be, when you leave pakistan, just ponder, what have you left behind...

Regards and best wishes for stay in another country which you can contrast with.

Jay.

Thank you Sadhana. I thought that the thrust of this article was not about domestic violence (which is quite common in many cultures), but about how people of power can get away with anything they want in our countries!

Tahmed, I tend to disagree with you on the last post. No matter where one is interacting, whether it is a conventional medium or internet, I think most people tend to follow natural instinct and thus reacting to an issue is very much characteristic of a person (subjective one). Although, ideally it should be more objective than subjective. You tend to form an opinion depending on how you feel about an issue. Otherwise, there will not be too much emphasis on chosing a national leader based on his/her opinions about various issues. See how Advani, although quite capable and forthright is generally not accepted by Indian mainstream as a prime minister because of his rather strong views. It is possible that he probably may act more leniently towards muslim views on certain issues, but people have personified him as a radical politician based on his words and words alone! I hope I am making some sense, that is why I prefer to be a technical writer than anything else.

My simple point to Ras was that since he is a journalist, he should have seen the development of this incident as it was presented, once the authenticity of the article was proven.

Jay, India`s name will come inevitably since you and I like many other Indians chose to interact in this forum. And what is so wrong about that? Don`t we have these problems in our country as well?

Regards

cheraym

To Mary Z,

There is a person called Lala Lajpat Roy in the indian independance movement. Please read about him, his sacrifices and his contribution to the indian/pak independance. Then visit his home, some where in lahore in dilapilated condition. Spend a few seconds infront of the home, think of your contribution compared to Roy`s, and have a last glace at the derelict building, you will walk away a wise person, and a lot will be revealed about pakistan, present and the future. Turn your sadness into wisdom.

Regards and best wishes.

Jay

jay, I knew it was a question of time before you came shuffling in with your usual gibberish.

Mary Z #46

I have the deepest regard and respect for your emotions,thoughts and your decision to migrate.

I feel sad for you and ashamed that I am the part of a society that has been unjustful to you and has spread distrust in the hearts of your family.

I assure you that, Inshallah,when your daughters grow up and are faced with a decision to settle either in the States or Pakistan,they would proudly and confidently choose the later.

I am sure of that as I feel that there is still hope to come.

As someone rightly said ``this is the beginning of the end``...the end of opression, suppression, corruption and lawlessness in Pakistan.

and when the new sun rises you shall be proud of your adopted(chosen) homeland, the Land of Pure.

MORE POWER TO THE PEOPLE!

MORE POWER TO YOU!

cheers,

Taimur Altaf Malik.

cheraym #52
I tend to agree with you. An incidence of domestic violence cannot implicate or be used to implicate a whole nation. But misuse of high official positions or of the state machinery to falsely implicate others and escape wrongdoing does certainly malign a country and its system.

Simply publishing an article on events which have already taken place doesnot constitute an `insult to the nation`. Thats another reason why the authenticity of reportage is important(apart from preventing against defamation of individuals)

If the report is true, here are the people who one ought to be `strongly objected to`, not those who replied to this article.

``Members of the Kazi family who were actively involved in using all available means to harass the Zehris were: Professor Ahmed Kazi (father), former advocate of the Supreme Court of Pakistan; Mustafa Kemal Kazi (brother), recently appointed as Ambassador of Pakistan to the Netherlands; Iqbal Kazi (brother), former Secretary Industries in Sindh; Farooq Kazi (brother), an engineer with the Sindh government; Dr. Mohammad Ahmed Kazi, Deputy National Health Coordinator with Ministry of Health; Mustafa Jamal Kazi (brother), District Magistrate in Sindh; and the infamous Farooq Amin Qureshi (brother-in-law), the former Deputy Inspector General of Karachi Police who is now the key witness in the hijacking case against Pakistan`s former Prime Minister, Mian Nawaz Sharif. ``

And it would be only fair to hear the other side of the issue.

Sadhana

cheraym you write ``Ras, TAhmed should behave upto their images, while 19 year olds can behave the way they want!``

Actually, I dont think that is true. The great thing about discussion on the internet is that it is purely that, unmixed with things like personality, position in life, and so forth. In internet discussions, our words have to stand on their own merit. And we normally dont expect to ever meet the other people in real life, so there is no ``image`` to be concerned with.

To mary,

May be you have a lot of friends, good ones in pakistan, and finally you are heart broken by the pak collective, the legal system. Befor you leave, learn something about the pak collective, actions of pakistanis to those who have done something good, to their memories. I have reproduced a news item from Frontier times in the Rahil Khan thread. Read it , visit the place of remebrance before you leave pakistan, and that should relieve you of a great burden, it will put your contribution and love of pakistan in the correct context.

Wish you the best and please leve india out of the posts.

Jay.

Ras, I do not think any rational person will implicate any nation over a single incident. But one has to admit that these kind of incidents are all too common in our part of the world. One way of helping Basma is obvioulsy to circulate her story and draw attention of more people. At least you be aware of all the evils existing around you.

Hope you did not take any offence, see we have expectations from different contributors of Chowk. Ras, TAhmed should behave upto their images, while 19 year olds can behave the way they want!

Regards

cheraym

I would not like to repeat all that I wrote
in my last reply but ``Nameless``, Cheryam and
even little ``t`` seem to feel that some kind
of wrong had been done when I wrote:

``Is this a report on domestic violence which
should be condemned to its fullest or an attempt
to malign a country?``

I welcomed the exposure of wrongdoing here and
felt very sad that Mary had to leave a land that she had obviously developed an affection for.
But too much has been written in both this article
and the replies to implicate a whole nation. That
is something that I strongly object to.

I am a very firm believer in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I had it framed once
and even took it to Pakistan with me to share
with my father as the IDEAL of mankind. But
that was during the Zia Regime. And neither
the general or the bastion of human rights
AKA the United States were reading this declaration to the Pakistanis at then.

What we are seeing today in Pakistan is the product of being used to defend the free world.

Women are and have been LOSING ground since
the fall of ZAB in Pakistan. Their voice needs to
be heard and their rights restored.

Incidents like this one happen everywhere. It is good to know and act upon such information. The
best reply I have read so far was by someone who
asked how Basma could be helped.

Journalism is about reporting the news. Sometimes
due to the scarcity of all the facts news is
stretched. But you still cannot condemn a whole
country because of a shameful incident like this
one.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights still remains my ideal. The children of Kashmir and
the Basma`s of Iraq today are also waiting for
this ideal. Any suggestions?

Ras

re mary

your response is so moving. i wish there was something we could do, i could do. i wish you all the best in your court case and everything else.

regards.

re temporal

yes, sadly, you are right, t. the UDHR isnt worth more than the paper its written on.

its an elitist, western, discourse that has no teeth. mostly, its a foreign policy tool of the US...and, things are getting worse in many places for many people.

the point, though, is that we all know certain basic things like dignity, freedom from fear, freedom from want are what we are entitled to as human beings. we didnt need franklin roosevelt to ``declare`` it and the UN to tell us that now we have these rights. we have them, even if the UN doesnt affirm them. but, we have to fight for them, as mary did. and unfortunately, in many parts of the world, the price you pay for fighting is so high. maybe, too high?

Mary Zehri #46

I am proud and sad for you.

Proud that you acted. Sad at the price you had to pay for acting.

Don`t put too much faith in UDHR. It looks like things will get a lot worse, before they get any better.

rgds,

t

Re: Mary Z # 46

I second your concluding paragraph and I hope that one day, not in the too distant future, you will return to your adoptive homeland once again.

If it is any consolation, the fight is just begining and the road ahead is dark and forbidding, but we, as a nation, are fast approaching that fork in the road, where as Robert Frost once said, we will have to take the road least travled and that my friend, will God Willing, will make all the difference. The more I look at the dismay situation in this country, too numberous to be itemized, I remember what an American once said: ``I have seen the promised land; I may not reach it with you, but we as a people will one day reach the promise land``. His name was Martin Luther King, Jr.

I will be honest with you and admit that I have serious doubts about the journey ahead and the challenges and the obstacles, which will have to be confronted and mastered. Not only are the people, who will carry the banner of social and political justice in Pakistan, will be pitted against the orthodoxy of the state, but they will be fighting with the inflexibility of a dogmatic traditional mode of thinking, which does not welcome new ideas.

There are about 150 million people in Pakistan and out of this seething sea of a suffering humanity, there will emerge ray of hope and depending on your personal inclinations, we are heading, as a nation, into a world described by Charles Dickens as ``the best of the times and the worst of times`` and it not belittle the imagination an iota to realize, as a French friend once wryly remarked to me, that the present conditions in Pakistan are same as they were in France in 1789!

Out of the blood of the French Revolution came the Universial Declaration of the Rights of Man and out of the reign of terror came a republic and like that republic in 1789, Pakistan will one day slip the noose of its despotic monarchial forms of government and assume the belated personification of a republic. It will happen as surely as fire burns and water wets.

Mary, the conditions in Pakistan are awful and they are fast sliding into an even worse state, but I also think, that this decay is in many ways just the begining of the end and one day soon, we have our own Concord and Lexington to cherish!

As you slip the bounds of this country, as a fellow citizen of this poor, suffering and forsaken country, I wish you all the best and hope that one day you will be amongst friends once more and your present ordeal will be a just another bedtime story you will tell your grandchildren and mightly bored will they be!

Take care and cherish the memories!

Ciao!

Mary Zehri`s reponse here (#46) is the saddest

indictment of the state of pakistan - not

withstanding Ras`s aversions (may be that is the

after effects of the 1971 trauma he underwent

while in B`desh).

It is really sad that a person who had made

Pakistan her home for many years has been made to

run away from it.

At a different level her story is the same as

Basma`s. Basma ran from a wife beating * * * * * * *

(Bush`s expletive), Mary from a women degrading

society.

Whats the difference Ras?

Dear Saima:

This is Mary Zehri writing in response to the interactive discussion at your website. You must be some sort of amazing personality!!! How can you deal with all these emotional opinions coming from all different directions concerning the article about our case posted on Chowk by ``Chowk Contributor``.

Wow!!! I suppose that I am too close to the situation to be unbiased and removed enough from the situation to be objective about the article. But, I am impressed by the response that this story is getting.

I am at a certain stage in my life or mindset to know that this case is one of ``individuals versus individuals``. I do not quite understand the overall paranoia that seems to permeate through some letters published that posting this case on the web will somehow defame Islam or Pakistan and boost India politically.

I hope that the readers of Chowk will understand that I love Pakistan. Although I am a California born American of European descent, I have chosen to live in Pakistan for the last 16 years versus returning to the states. It is just the heartbreak that I feel with this incident with a few rogue public officials and the ineffective criminal justice system which has taken away the rose-colored glasses off of my eyes and made me want to embrace Pakistan with a sort of maternal pity and cry deep sobs for the majority of innocent people here that have gone through, are going through, and will go through suffering in a society that seemingly values to NOT talk about its problems and worry more about what the world thinks and how India will react.

My action oriented approach to problem solving that I was raised with led me to naively get involved into resolving a friend`s personal problems and come to Basma`s assistance each time she called me for help. Furthermore, it is culturally understood here in the Pak-Indian sub-continent, and certainly all over the world, that extending one`s hand out to help another, especially a helpless female, forgivable and understandable. I had no idea a few months ago that Ismail, Bootow and I would be in this sort of a dangerous situation that we are currently facing for simply coming to a friend`s desperate call for assistance. As a matter of fact, she is also my husband`s cousin. We were the only other family members she had here in Islamabad to call when her life was being threatened. Other family members are either living abroad or in other far away cities of Pakistan. Basma herself did not want anyone hurt ever in this situation...even her abusive husband. Somehow, she believed he would change! But, she knew well that the legal system would make matters nearly impossible to resolve. Yet, when the basic instinct to survive arose in her when her life was being threatened by her out-of-control husband, she called us.

Why us? Perhaps, because I was a foreigner. Well, Basma always said that others in the Pakistani society, due to cultural norms, would not take kindly to her need to run away from her husband`s violent behavior. It seems that some of the response that this article by ``Chowk Contributor`` is getting is from individuals who completely miss her ``catch-22`` position in the story. Neither Basma, Ismail nor myself really think that this domestic issue that happens in every country can be misconstrued into an international incident to defame one country or another. We are just simple human souls that are asking to be heard. I cannot tell you how lucky I feel that the American embassy came to assist us, otherwise only Allah knows what would have happened to my 3 daughters (after the incident, we sent our two older one`s to live with their grandparents in California), myself and Basma the night when the individual group of police officers (all male members when the Pakistani law is clear that a female police officer must be present if they are arresting a female) came to arrest me at 3:00 AM in the morning, but fled when I asked them through a screen window to wait until the American embassy representatives came. Why did they leave if not for skulking?

With the opening of the discussion of issues on Chowk this is a beginning in the right direction, I believe. We must all do a little something positive to assist the countries in which we reside or have any interest to change things if there is something that needs changing.

Writing alone will not give anyone full solace in our emotional reactions to move and respond in writing on this article in the Chowk. We must act to look at and change injustice and lack of integrity in our government institutions. People have to admit that social problems do exit universally. Each individual has a unique personal responsibility for the injustices inherent in their country`s political and judicial systems if gone unchecked.

This is the question that I pose to Chowk readers now. What actions can be taken to revolutionize countries, such as Pakistan or India, to find ways to ensure the basic UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS document ---so poignantly alluded to in the response by taimurmalik #13?

Well, I do my own social cleansing by beginning with my own home, then on a case by case basis for those relatives or friends who approach me for help. What other way is there? How can I help these cases of injustice alone without the assistance of the judicial and political system, especially when I face individuals with mindset that only worry about who is trying to sabotage who`s country or religion with what information? This paranoia only gets in the way of finding peaceful co-existence here for me in Pakistan.

My home was Pakistan and to leave this beautiful place because of a few atrocious public officials who misuse the legal system is one of the saddest moments of my life. I hope that Chowk readers know that I am leaving this country with my heart on my sleeve and will miss all of the wonderful friends that I have made here over the years. May Allah keep peace in Pakistan, give courage to her people to fight for justice, and turn the country into a livable place for all -- not just for the one`s residing in Islamabad!

Sincerely,

MZ

AVOIDING THE UNPLEASENT,

At last the teary eyed pakistanis have moved away from this thread, throwing aside the onion slices and the glycerine bottles. Take it easy, atrocities of this nature take place in your beloved country USA, which appear to set the standards for you. Story of `Hurricane` is only a tip of the iceberg, from Rodney King it is only a hop step and jump to the heavenly England of Bermingham Five. Pakistan is not all that bad.

What is deplorable is the failure of your schooling, only aspect relevant in the article is the psuedonym of the author. To pen something so ordinary, the author had to hide even in a transient medium like the chowk. It is the fear, the fear of death, that is the curse of pakistan, derived from the fatwas and jihad.

The other day a journalist based in pakistan stated here that there is no anti-blasphemy protest in pakistan because they will be killed. None of the allegedly educated on the chowk ever cared to put it so bluntly. And the response of another educated took the biscuit, `can we afford the fear of death to stop progress`.

It is the same on this thread, shed the teased out tears on the unfortunate, but deny the fear gripping the educated, the fatwafobia, the force behind the psuedonym.

In the thread on devolution, there was praise for the freedom of press in pakistan. No, there is self censorship, that is worse than overt censorship. Accepting fatwafobia in the promise land of USA is hard, shedding a few tears is a pleasent indulgence.

You are welcome Tahmed. I really, really hope we as people can remove the differences so that we have peace in sub-continent. See the myriads of problems like domestic violence, police brutality, corruption, poverty, religious bigotry.. etc are so much rampant in both the countries, it is useless to discuss who is marginally better than the other. On top of these we have to continuously drain our valuable resources for the border(I chose not to use the K word) problems!

Ras, I did not expect your comment on this article, specially when you are a journalist. You know better that this can not be a sporadic incident. When criminalization of institutions are done in a systematic way as you mentioned duly in an impoverished nation like ours, there is no justice for anybody. Who are you really ashamed of exposing the dirty laundry in Chowk? The Indians? We have our equal shares. Unless you recognize this as a problem, how are you going to solve it?

Regards

cheraym

cheraym: They say the best way to criticize is to ensure that the recipient leaves actually feeling good about himself. Your post #19 did that for me, and thanks for that. Maybe you and I should represent our respective countries and we will fix all our problems before lunch.

Best regards to you too.

re temporal #37

`` * * *Come on aakar, bashfulness? You mean you DID NOT read the article before jumping in?``

er, no. but i DID after reading saima`s post.

``what would your mentor M J Akbar would do? After a few years under the belt any half decent editor can SMELL a good story, distinguish between the wheat and the chaff, blind folded...``

mr akbar would`ve run the story eight columns on top (``let`s fly it!``)with all-caps headlines AFTER he had it verified.

``if the ediotrs at the Washington Post shared your views, there would be no Watergate. Only Woodward and Bernstein knew -- the EDITOR did not know the identity of the deep throat.``

i say what i do on the assumption that chowk editors have NOT verified the story. indeed, saima has made no mention of that. however, i now think the person may have sent in the story with an explanatory note to chowk editors on why she/he wished to remain anonymous, and offered some proof, in which case i think this should have been made clear. and in which case i apologise for kicking up this hoo-haa.

``Where would you place Asghar Ali Engineer’s efforts from your fine city?``

i do not think mr engineer sees himself as a journalist -- he is a full-time activist/rationalist, and a very ocassional columnist for that rag, the times of india, and THAT certainly does not qualify him as a journalist.

regards

aakar patel

Ferozk #38:

Thanks re: Bradley.

At that time he did not plead the fifth. When pressed he clearly said he did not know the source.

Missed that interview on CNN -- well not really ---- how can I say delicately? --- all the tv screens in my house met a certain fate about three years ago --- now I have access to Larry or Oprah or others only in waiting rooms or lounges --- so I am less informed --- good or bad is a matter of conjecture.

rgds,

t

Re sigalph235 #21: ``The bottomline is this: there is no Pakistani way and no Islamic way of human rights. Human rights are human rights and only the Mullah Umars of the world will try to fudge the issue by constantly denying that there exists a universal standard of human dignity.``

Recently read two pieces that are relevant to the above comment. (I apologize for straying from the general thrust of the discussion that the article has generated, and do not wish to diminish the importance of the core issues in any way.)

Jermey Bentham, Anarchical Fallacies (1796):

``In proportion ot the want of happiness resulting from the want of rights, a reason exists for wishing that there were such things as rights. But reasons for wishing that there were such things as rights, are not rights ... - wants is not supply - hunger is not bread.``

``Of a natural right who has any idea? I, for my part, I have none: a natural right is a round square, - an incorporeal body. What a legal right is I know. ... Right is with me a child of law ... A natural right is a son that never had a father.``

Jeremy Waldron, The Law (1990):

``Though they are often expressed in simple slogans, human rights are not a simple matter. There are endless disputes about what counts as torture, whether pornography is free speach, what`s required for a fair trial, which rights can be overridden in a public emergency, what counts as a public emergency, how conflicts of rights are to be resolved, and so on. Think about the issue of abortion. Do foetuses have rights, and if they do, how do they weigh against a woman`s right to control her own body? These are awfully difficult issues on which honest disagreement is more or less inevitable. When such disputes crop up, how are they to be decided?``

ras #32

nice comments...exactly the point that I was trying to get across in my comments...

Re: Temporal # 37

Temporal, Lee Bradley the former editor of the Washington Post knew of the Deep Throat`s identity and he admited to this fact on Larry King, when Larry was interviewing him on his retirement.

As to the identity of the author, that is a minor concern in contrast to the message of the article and yes, the author`s real name would help, but in such cases, people who give such info do not like to be burned in the sun of publicity and secondly, if the info is credible, then the identity is never asked so as not to expose the source.

Ciao!

TO SUM UP THUS FAR

I think the discussion is wearing away from the original intent. I read this as a general thrust following the directions of Radhika’s Women in India piece.

aakar patel #20:

[..whether this was out of bashfulness or fear i cannot say....],

* * *Come on aakar, bashfulness? You mean you DID NOT read the article before jumping in?

[if chowk were a print product exposed to libel charges, i`m not so sure this would have been published.]

* * *Depends on the country. Though generally you are right. Here libel charges are increasingly used as an intimidating tool.

[.... anonymity... substantially takes away from the gravity of the charge.....]

* * *Most of the times. But then there are exceptions where the Editor has to listen to his gut feelings. For instance, legendary Pakistani journalist/editor Razia Bhatti, were she alive today would have run this story. She would have read the story carefully, make two phone calls to ascertain the substantive allegations and then run away with the story: name or ghost would not factor in the decision.


Saima Shah 25:

[......papers in India and Pakistan SHOULD print outcries against abuse and violence....]

* * *Who can argue against this?

[... most of the stuff that papers in India and Pakistan print is lies, subterfuge, the nudges of politicians with titillating pictures of women......]

* * *Shall we say on second thoughts you will reconsider this statement?

[...the people who have genuine stories of abuse to tell? Where do they go for justice? ..]

* * *The key word here is GENUINE. Aakar my friend, what would your mentor M J Akbar would do? After a few years under the belt any half decent editor can SMELL a good story, distinguish between the wheat and the chaff, blind folded.

Also, to be fair, Saima, they come to share their plight and agony and make us aware of it. so that hopefully we are better prepared -- they DO NOT come for justice. Justice depending on where one is located is provided by somber men and women in black gowns or through the barrel of the gun NOT through public outcry.

[Manufacturing consent is not something Chowk will ever be good at. And I am proud of that.]

* * *Is it not ironic that the publication (of Chowk) in a way leads to consent manufacturing? It is an inevitable outcome of any mass medium effort.

aakar patel #35:

[...i do not want Chowk Contributor`s name to be revealed. he or she may be worried about personal safety or may not be sure of the facts at hand or have other reasons for sending this piece in anonymity. however, i do not think it right that it be published as an article.]

* * *Aaakar, if the ediotrs at the Washington Post shared your views, there would be no Watergate. Only Woodward and Bernstein knew -- the EDITOR did not know the identity of the deep throat.

[...i do not believe journalists, especially editors, should see themselves in messianic terms ..]

* * *Well put. Agree fully.

[...i see journalism as reportage and not as activism, which i think is dangerous and damaging to the causes it seeks to take up. ]

* * *Debatable. Where would you place Asghar Ali Engineer’s efforts from your fine city?

[..i do not see the media as dispensers of justice, which again i feel is dangerous and damaging.]

* * *Very well said. Full agreement here.

[regards and apologies to all for this rather long and, on a reread, rather pointless post.]

* * *Again, barring the last phrase, am in full agreement. May say the same, if and when I come to the end here.

Zehri #33:

[....the focus of this discussion should remain on the important issues: gender based violence; unjust imprisonment; and misuse of government powers by individuals who are public officials. Furthermore, unveiling the author will not serve any productive purpose in improving our lives here in Pakistan and will not assist us in our blatant outcries for justice and integrity within our bureaucratic system.]

Sir/Madam: Very well said.

Ras Siddiqui #32:

[But this unfortunate domestic and now international incident does not warrant magnification to ``It is common in Pakistan for law enforcement organizations to raid in the early morning hours to either rape, torture and possibly murder relatives of suspects under interrogation in order to extract false confessions``]

AND

[Domestic violence must be condemned. Police brutality should be similarly exposed and given
back the third degree that it dishes out in countries like Pakistan. But let us not hang an
entire country out to dry on CHOWK because one man has a problem with his wife.]

* * *We are not reading from the same page Ras. Please read carefully the quote I reproduced above from Zehri #33.

amjad5 #31:

[....assigning this type of treatment of women as being a character of Pakistan is totally unjustified. ........ blame the individuals, not the government...]

* * *Please read carefully Zehri’s quote reproduced here. We should not be examining the tree and ignoring the forest.
taimurmalik -various

[..he should have been more open, personal, truthful and maybe a bit more AGGRESSIVE, abusive and outright in his expression!]

* * *Thank you for your passionate participation. There are moments in our personal lives when we cannot be totally brutally honest with our mothers, friends, lovers ---not for any fear but for the love we have for them. That is why I will have to disagree with you.

In this article, there have been enough names mentioned on either side that any resourceful editor can verify in ten minutes the substantive veracity of this story. The name of the writer therefore need not figure in the decision to run the story.

[... WHY IS IT that a nation of 150 million can`t stand up to the ruling elite of 150 families..]

* * *That day of reckoning, my young friend, is round the corner. Though am not sure our Gods will help us much then.

bg #28:

[...please, let us not pretend that journalism and media exist in a social and political vacuum...]

* * *Hard to disagree.

Please forgive the length,

regards,

temporal

Re: Aakar

Hi Aakar,

I think we are arguing the same point from different angles; the halo of objectivity is false in my opinion...I do not think that any paper can be objective; plural; diverse yes but objective no!.

Sure I can pick out why u think there is a halo in my post; but I can pick out your objectivity halo.

Well, to cut an endless argument short, I feel that media acts in situations where the justice mechanism falls short. Public communication is the first court in any case--through out history there is a connection. Numerous examples come to mind as I am sure you can think of too. However, I have a big bone to pick with the media in Pakistan and have extended that to India. I feel that we must have a diverse bunch of people writing a lot about issues in ordinary lives and definitely way more idealism. I am tired of cynical so-called objectivity which lets everybody know what is current, hip and cool. Acts as a mechanism of social control and a means to subjugate the masses.

Interactive media has a different ambit than print journalism, that is for sure. I hope that clarifies some of my previous reaction.

Regards

Saima

zehri #33

``It is truly unfortunate that a few learned readers of Chowk are asking that the name of the author, ``Chowk Contributor``, be revealed.``

dear zehri,

i do not want Chowk Contributor`s name to be revealed. he or she may be worried about personal safety or may not be sure of the facts at hand or have other reasons for sending this piece in anonymity. however, i do not think it right that it be published as an article.

that is my opinion -- i do not WANT anything to be revealed or not done. i am only voicing my disappointment.

i also strongly object to being referred to as ``learned reader`` :)

saima #25

``With all due respect to you. Maybe papers in India and Pakistan SHOULD print outcries against abuse and violence. Maybe then we would be closer to some form of democracy. The court of the public needs to be established and our media has sadly neglected its foremost role.``

``...Infotainment is not Chowk`s calling.``

``Let`s engage in dialogue by all means--lets have justice here.``

dear saima

i do not believe journalists, especially editors, should see themselves in messianic terms (please read through your post to me carefully and let me know if you can spot that halo).

i see journalism as reportage and not as activism, which i think is dangerous and damaging to the causes it seeks to take up.

i do not see the media as dispensers of justice, which again i feel is dangerous and damaging.

in any case, i do not see how by putting up an unattributed (unverified?) report, the purposes of justice are being served.

also, i actually have great respect for my fellow hacks, and a lot of the journalists i have worked with and for are outstanding professionals. the majority of our media does a very good job, so i disagree with you when you said that most of what we print is: ``lies, subterfuge, the nudges of politicians with titillating pictures of women.`` i think that is just a little too sweeping.

``...But according to you a family`s genuine plight because they defended a woman is libel?``

i never said it was libel: i said if chowk were a publication exposed to libel charges, it may not have printed this anonymous article. i could be wrong, of course.

i`m not sure why or against whom you have launched your diatribe against ``infotainment``. i must however confess that not all the pages of the newspaper i work for are filled with reports on injustice and the murder of democracy.

we`re a tabloid (yes, we have a page 3 girl), and we do great stories -- some of them are even on (choke) celebrities.

but we put our name to our work.

regards and apologies to all for this rather long and, on a reread, rather pointless post.

aakar patel

ps: saima, we did try to being `quality` into our paper, but you turned us down!

re fuzair #24

Right on, brother!

Thanks for reminding me about the depth of hatred felt by the Jamaatis and their cohorts towards Pakistan in 1946-47. Now they are the big defenders of the Pakistani ideology. And plenty of idiots believe that conversion.

It is truly unfortunate that a few learned readers of Chowk are asking that the name of the author, ``Chowk Contributor``, be revealed.



Taimurmalik states in his:

Reply # 14: ...the Author `chowk contributor` should have written this under his own name...

Reply # 29: ...he should have been more open, personal, truthful and maybe a bit more AGGRESSIVE, abusive and outright in his expression!

Akaar Patel states in his:

Reply # 20: I also think the fact of the anonymity, and this has not be remarked upon, is that it substantially takes away from the gravity of the charge -- which is reduced to no more than gossip.

Perhaps in countries where freedom of speech is considered one`s basic human right (Reply # 13 by Taimurmalik: Article # 19 of the UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS), then it can be safe to state the names of authors who write such controversial articles. But, unfortunately, the reality is that in Pakistan, and numerous other countries, if you openly discuss unlawful activities partaken by an Army General, an Acting Foreign Secretary, a Brigadier, a Major, an Assistant Superintendent of Police, and numerous other high-level government officials who have proven themselves to be atrocious in reacting to such charges, then exposing your name simply means that you have signed your own ``death certificate``.

For the information of any idealistic reader of Chowk, not only the author of such articles can be killed, but their well-wishers, friends and relatives may be ``kidnapped`` in un-marked cars and their eyes covered before being taken to special cells where they are interrogated for more than 15 days -- all in the name of ``defending Pakistan``! The truth remains that when one reveals incredulous actions taken by high-ranking public officials in Pakistan, a person faces possible death, torture, rape, or at the very least, life imprisonment. So, before criticizing someone for not revealing his or her name, please be realistic to the fact that such a foolish move could prove to be injurious for the author (if still residing in Pakistan).

Therefore, in my opinion, the focus of this discussion should remain on the important issues: gender based violence; unjust imprisonment; and misuse of government powers by individuals who are public officials. Furthermore, unveiling the author will not serve any productive purpose in improving our lives here in Pakistan and will not assist us in our blatant outcries for justice and integrity within our bureaucratic system.

Zehri

There are idiots in every society. And some of them are powerful or well connected to boot.
This ``report`` is an unfortunate reflection of ills that exist within humankind which are possibly more acute in third world countries where the old agrarian background is reluctant to accept the equal rights of the female gender.
But this unfortunate domestic and now international incident does not warrant magnification to
``It is common in Pakistan for law enforcement organizations to raid in the early morning hours to either rape, torture and possibly murder relatives of suspects under interrogation in order to extract false confessions``
Is this a report on domestic violence which
should be condemned to its fullest or an attempt
to malign a country?
If I wanted to judge all of America by a report
that I recently read in the Sacramento Bee where
a man was convicted of killing his wife and kids
(burned them to death, if I remember the report correctly), would that remain my prism to see
ALL of America with from now on?
Domestic violence must be condemned. Police brutality should be similarly exposed and given
back the third degree that it dishes out in countries like Pakistan. But let us not hang an
entire country out to dry on CHOWK because one
man has a problem with his wife.

Ras

i agree that this incident is very unfortunate and disturbing. However, assigning this type of treatment of women as being a character of Pakistan is totally unjustified. Domestic abuses similar to this one occur all over the world. Even in ``The Great United States of America``, a guy can slice and dice his ex-wife, run away from the cops in a White Ford Bronco and be able to walk away from the whole thing a free man..

My point: blame the individuals, not the government...

To me this incident is about the POWER GAME that the influentials of our country are soo fond of playing...

ONE top family trying to get another equally well backed resourceful one!

SPEAK FOR THE RIGHTS OF THOSE who live in misery and die in misery...those who haven`t been lucky enough to get educated or haven`t got any relatives with links to the appointees of Uncle Sam!

SPEAK for those who wake up each morning fearing it to be their last!

SPEAK for those whose lives ended a lot earlier than they should have!

SPEAK for if even we don`t speak MORE basma`s will meet this fate..more naghma`s would die..

and the world will still move on...

and their abusers will still live to see another day...NOW only we don`t want that!

MORE POWER TO PEOPLE!

Saima Shah #25:

You are right about the freedom of press and the freedom of speech..and yes i agree that chowk has been playing its part in providing a platform for free speech and expression...and that is exactly why youngsters like me,seasoned proffesionals like Aakar and others hang out at this place we so fondly call `chowk`.

BUT the fact remains that the AUTHOR`s hiding behind false identities just goes to show the fear that has accumulated in the hearts and minds of an average Pakistani.

AND more importantly the fact that he choose CHOWK as the platform to lend ears to his outcry..he should have been more open,personal,truthful and maybe a bit more AGGRESSIVE,abusive and outright in his expression!



The day I have an incident to narrate I would let it be known to everyone that its ME whos calling the shoots!...LET GO OF THE FEAR!...

Fear is the reason this nation and its people have NEVER been able to make their ruler accountable for their wrong-doings....

WHY IS IT that a nation of 150 million can`t stand up to the ruling elite of 150 families..

Is it death that we fear or is it loss of worldly things,connections and people that we hold dear.

I think it is the fear of ones own guilt being made public that keeps us from speaking out!

It is actually cuz we ourselves are not clean!

May God be kind to us.Amen.

regards,

Taimur.

re saima shah`s response to aaker patel

i couldnt agree more. journalists play the ``neutrality/objective reporting`` card and say they need names of both parties to print articles. many who fear for their lives get silenced as a result.

i appreicate the fact that chowk printed this article. of course the author`s name would have helped, but that`s not the point. in any event, do you blame the author for being afraid? look what this family has done to basma and her relatives?

please, let us not pretend that journalism and media exist in a social and political vacuum. lets ``compromise`` our so-called standards, or re-think them, if a story needs to be told. otherwise we`ll have the usual tripe -- this govt blaming that intelligence agency, vacuous ``bayaans``, and an obsession with the toe nails and nostril hair of celebrities.

regards

Re: All

I have a simple question. Mary and her husband had the US Embassy to protect them and thanks to Uncle Sam`s influence, escaped the web of death laid out for them. What about the average Pakistani who has no one to support him against the lies, who cries for him/her?

Yes, I am trully saddened by this incident and even more so, because it would seem that you need influence to be saved from being wrongly accused by influential persons!

Maybe Pakistan needs an Oskar Schindler of its own; maybe Pakistan needs to die before it can have another rebirth and; maybe Pakistan is just a perception which conflicts with reality!

Yes, we have our problems and those problems are a result of our own misdeeds of greed, indifference and immorality. If we have to slove these problems and better ourselves to that the point that we can call ourselves as human beings, do we need to change ourselves or do we need more laws? What good is a law, protecting us, when we willing disobey that law or sell it to the highest bidder? Can we change for the better? A waterfall starts out with one drop of water and great storms always announce themselves as a simple breeze first, but who will fan our gentle breezes of social equality and when will the rains come promising that one drop of water for which we are thristing? We hear the thunder, but where are the rains? Where are the rains?

I hope the rains come and I hope a gentle breeze whispers our way...

Ciao!

fuzair #24:

Mullahcaust?

Aur Khuda ka kiya karo gay?

On a serious note, I am loathe to blame the mullahs for all that ails us. To me they are usurpers par excellence by default. When people of the Book stop reading, stop learning, sub-surface bearded creatures will fill the vacuum.

To reiterate with perhaps a degree of over-simplication: Islam is not at fault - Muslims are.

rgds,

t

Re: Aakar

With all due respect to you.

Maybe papers in India and Pakistan SHOULD print outcries against abuse and violence. Maybe then we would be closer to some form of democracy. The court of the public needs to be established and our media has sadly neglected its foremost role.

To me it is important that one person spoke up and called a spade a spade. As for libel; most of the stuff that papers in India and Pakistan print is lies, subterfuge, the nudges of politicians with titillating pictures of women.

Where does libel end and abuse start? I find libel in Indo-Pak papers not at Chowk. Are stories about the personal lives of public figures not libel?; they are printed without thought as a sort of public right to publicity. But according to you a family`s genuine plight because they defended a woman is libel?

If Chowk wanted to be like `standard` papers, it would not be what it is today. Housing dissent and making it somehow work is a harder task than housing articles by `good` writers packaged in a pleasing format. Infotainment is not Chowk`s calling.

Do you realise, how these `standards` somehow work against the people who have genuine stories of abuse to tell? Where do they go for justice? to USA, to Canada? How long will this go on? Manufacturing consent is not something Chowk will ever be good at. And I am proud of that. Of-course, chowk will be criticized; some may appreciate it. But that doesnt mean that we stop making hard judgement calls.

Maybe it is time that some paper performed the function it is supposed to: A free place where people from all walks of life feel safe enough to air their griefs. I am proud that Chowk gave this opportunity to this person to speak. That this person has reason to be afraid is obvious.

Pakistan is a hard country to fight for justice. I am happy that Chowk provided a starting point.
Let`s engage in dialogue by all means--lets have justice here.

Regards

Saima

Re: Sigalph235

Don`t you know, old boy, that the Mullah Brigade dubbed Mr. Jinnah as the Kaffir-e-Azam? I propose a mullocaust as the one sovereign remedy for most of our ills.

Beautiful Kabuliwallah ...

Where are you by the way ... and how is JNU?

re:sac

Maybe recourse to Judge Judy might not be such a bad thing. It would provide some recourse considering there are precious few as it is.

Maybe more `domestic disputes` as they are so euphemistcially referred to, need to be broadcast across the airwaves for men and women in Pakistan to realize that there are alternatives - that help is possible as is punishment.

Maybe this one really was a `domestic dispute` blown out of proportion (doesnt sound like it though) but there are millions more where that came from - with the men and women and indeed families involved purporting to be educated, enlightened and aware. They are not domestic disputes - but pure violence against HUMAN rights.

Most of our ills it seems are traced back to a lack of education. But what excuse does anyone have when all concerned are educated ?

Yes we need drinking water, electricity and more schools (amongst a host of other needs). But in the meantime men, women and children must continue to suffer in a distorted social system ? Why ?

dL

sac`s # 6 reminds me again of the typical nonsensical defense used by the defenders of the medieval practices.

First, these folks say `it is our business therefore no foreigners`.

Second, `we define human rights in a different way.`

Third, `when we don`t have enough to eat why should we be concerned about funny things like human rights.`

This kind of deliberate denial of the problem over the last fifty some years has made the most promising new Muslim nation the lamentation of her own own Founders and her admirers in the rest of the world. The Pakistan which boldly acceded to the UDHR in 1949 is now a country where killing some women is considered honorable.

My old nemesis Omar Mirza is so right: for all its faults, the West doesn`t attach any civic societal honour to killing women and burning heretics.

The bottomline is this: there is no Pakistani way and no Islamic way of human rights. Human rights are human rights and only the Mullah Umars of the world will try to fudge the issue by constantly denying that there exists a universal standard of human dignity. Pakistani society is in the battle of its life between the spirit of MA Jinnah and the ghost of Mullah Umar&Co.

i share the disappointment of taimurmalik #14, that the author chose not to reveal her/his identity.

whether this was out of bashfulness or fear i cannot say, but i can reveal what we normally do at our newspaper with allegations sent in anonymity: spike them. we do not lend our shoulder to the guns of others -- and i do think the editors of chowk should not have either.

if chowk were a print product exposed to libel charges, i`m not so sure this would have been published.

i also think the fact of the anonymity, and this has not be remarked upon, is that it substantially takes away from the gravity of the charge -- which is reduced to no more than gossip.

regards

aakar patel

Just curious, not a place to post this when teh matter is serious, but whatever has happened to old Tahmed321? He does not seem like the one, the poised, calm and rational Tahmed. Somehow this new Tahmed seems little jittery. Jay is nowhere to find in this board yet. Why invite problem?

Regards from Indian brigade.

BEAT THE WOMEN, if they stray ... or if you just plain feel like it. OUR CULTURE, TRADITIONS & RELIGION SANCTION IT.

MULLAH SALVATION CMTE OF PAKISTAN

He-e-e-e-e-r-e comes Jay

and his Indian brigade,

with proof, positive,

about that miserable creature,

the Pakistani male.

The more things change ... the more they remain the same. So what if Pakistan has a General called Mushy running the country? It does not mean that the rule of law prevails.

I agree with Pullu`s post #4s following comment:

`When society starts to accept these things without raising an eyebrow then that society is in decay. Law and Order are our own reflections`.

The whole article answers the following questions:

#1Whats the value of Pakistani citizenship and why?

#2Whats the status of women in PAK society?

#3 Why are Pakistanis deservedly treated with such contempt abroad, especially when they show their green passports anywhere?

Hope for change? Dream on. Change cultures first!

Abolish illiteracy and ignorance first. Then hope for change. These nasty cultural perversities cannot be hidden in the West. There are many stories about Paki-Mulsim girls being abducted by their parents into forced marriages ... and numerous reported cases of domestic violence, women being torched by abusive husbands abroad like recently in Chicago. Fortunately, their is no `cultural` sympathy for the perpetrators of these crimes in the West, Murder is simply Murder, and not dubbed `HONORABLE`, unlike in Pakistan. And the law is the law. No man is above it, again unlike Pakistan. Justice is blind, but not also deaf, mute and dumb, unlike in Pakistan.

Btw, its nice to see you back on Chowk, Bad Girl.



OMAR MIRZA

re chowk contributor

can we do anything to help the zehris or basma?

regards

btw. its just my personal opinion but I feel that the Author `chowk contributor` should have written this under his own name..especially when one is telling an incident involving real life names of the people involved,especially when one is writing something which will damage their reputition for good.

Offcourse if he had given his name as some `hamid`,`qazi` or `osama`...we would never have been able to tell if its his real name or not but STILL it makes a difference!...just goes to show the fear in peoples mindz.

This name-hiding thing just goes to show how much people in Pakistan are afraid of the powers that be...

Even people like the learned Author have to resort to safer means for reasons best known to them.

PEOPLE PLEASE RISE....SPEAK UP...THIS IS A FREE WORLD...YOUR WORLD...DON`T BE AFRAID...

because if the priviliged ones like us feel a restriction on our freedom of speech...we can only imagine about the condition of the under-priviliged..

WAKE UP!....SPEAK OUT!...BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF!

Over n` Out.

Taimur.

Sorry for the rather long post..but i think that people need to read it again and rather learn it by heart especially those in Pakistan without any high-flying influentials in their families...

GOD..incidents like these make even a staunch patriot like me think again...work harder..

and act faster!

May God be nice to us.Amen.

Taimur.

On December 10, 1948 the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.Following this historic act the Assembly called upon all Member countries to publicize the text of the Declaration and ``to cause it to be disseminated,

displayed, read and expounded principally in schools and other educational institutions,

without distinction based on the political status of countries or territories.``

PREAMBLE

Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all

members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,



Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the commonpeople,

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort,

to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,

Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,

Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in co-operation with the

United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights

and fundamental freedoms,

Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,

Now, Therefore,

THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY

proclaims

THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.

Article 1.

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with

reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without

distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other

opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no

distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status

of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust,

non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3.

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4.

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5.

No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6.

Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7.

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8.

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10.

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and

impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal

charge against him.

Article 11.

(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until

proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees

necessary for his defence.

(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission

which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time

when it was committed Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was

applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Article 12.

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or

correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation Everyone has the right

to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Article 13.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of

each state.

(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 14.

(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.

(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from

non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 15.

(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change

his nationality.

Article 16.

(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or

religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights

as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.

(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.

(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to

protection by society and the State.

Article 17.

(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Article 18.

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes

freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with

others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice,

worship and observance.

Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 20.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.

(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Article 21.

(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or

through freely chosen representatives.

(2) Everyone has the right to equal access to public service in his country.

(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this shall be

expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Article 22.

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to

realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance

with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural

rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23.

(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.

(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for

himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if

necessary, by other means of social protection.

(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his

interests.

Article 24.

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working

hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being

of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and

necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment,

sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances

beyond his control.

(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children,

whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Article 26.

(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the

elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory.

Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to

the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.

(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their

children.

Article 27.

(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to

enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.

(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting

from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

Article 28.

Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

Article 29.

(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development

of his personality is possible.

(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such

limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition

and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements

of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.

(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes

and principles of the United Nations.

Article 30.

Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or

person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction

of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

regards,

Taimur.

Talking of Law and Order. This is what happened in the heart of India`s capital.

At 12.00 noon, five goons got into a DTC(delhi transport corporation) bus and looted the passengers. Few who tried to resist were slashed. Then they walked away casually after getting down at a crossing. And the passengers scooted too { may be didn`t want be caught in a lafda}. One of the passengers however took himself to a police station to file a FIR. Not surprisingly, the policemen dissuaded him from doing so saying..``kaheka lafda mol rahe ho..woh court ka chakkar...goondon se dushmani..ghar ja aur sab bhool ja..``

This in New Delhi- our National capital..If you guys don`t know, it is also the crime capital of this country. So much for Law And Order.

Thulla Maharaj ki Jai Ho...

Pullu

A sad, but true reflection of Pakistan. My only comment is that I agree with sac on this issue. What human rights in Pakistan are we talking about, when we have no concept of what those rights are all about in the first place!

Re: Temporal # 8

What police reforms are you wishing for? :)

The police will never be reformed in Pakistan! Mark my words!

Ciao!