Protest in New York!

RE: Fairdinkum

Khoda Pahar Nikla Chooha. I think, you are right about that fee thing.

Pakistanis do not have a culture of democracy. Clearly, the lack of the exercise of Freedom of Speech, Press & Assembly over extended peroiods of time in Pakistan`s chequered history, has made its impact. Even many of the posters here on Chowk exhibit that, much to my surprise. I made a promise earlier that if an issue was raised and not addressed, i would post an answer. Well everyone has had a fair opportunity to comment on this. So here goes.

Re: Sec 298B & 298C.

These statutes are religion specific, targeting a discrete & insular religious minority community directly and prohibiting them from the Free Exercise of their religious beliefs simply because they are `offensive` to Muslims. They impair freedom of conscience substantially, in addition to freedom of speech. Are these legitimiate functions for state power in the 21st century?

`in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of muslims` = Talk about handing a carte blanche to the fanatics with which to use the state apparatus to oppress a minority religious community for any reason whatsoever, and on any flimsy pretext. Very Very expansive language, in any civilized state where the judiciary was free from political pressure, and the threat of lynch mobs, the language of this statute would be struck down as a violation of the Constitutional guarantee of freedom of religion/religious practice as too overbroad. I am not however saying that if the statute was more narrowly tailored, that it would/could withstand Constitutional Scrutiny.

This is why the issue of equal rights and treatment under the law is a political issue in Pakistan much more than a legal issue. Until the political will exists, its practically a waste of time to challenge these kinds of laws in the courts. Its when Muslims from the majority religious community extend their support for equal rights and cut across the lines of religious belief in Pakistan, that things will change. Its not an ``Ahmadi`` issue, not a ``Christian`` issue, not a ``Parsi or Hindu issue``, its a HUMAN BEING ISSUE, A PAKISTAN ISSUE.

And the treatment of minorities by the law today in Pakistan is appalling.

(Whether the Ahmadis do or don`t consider themselves Muslims, does not make any difference to this discussion, for ease of reference herein, since Ahmadis are considered a minority by the masses).

O.M

298-B

Misuse of epithet, descriptions and titles, etc. Reserved for certain holy personages or places.

Any person of the Qadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves Ahmadis or by any other name) who by words, either spoken or written or by visible representation:

refers to or addresses, any person, other than a Caliph or companion of the Holy Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), as ``Ameerul Momneen``, ``Khalifat-ul-Momneen``, ``Khalifat-ul-Muslimeen``, ``Sahaabi`` or ``Razi Allah Anho``;

Refers to or addresses, any person, other than a wife of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), as Ummul-Mumineen;

refers to, or addresses, any person, other than a member of the family (Ahle-Bait) of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), as Ahle-Bait; or

refers to, or names, or calls, his place of worship as Masjid; shall be punished with imprisonment or either description for a term which may extend to three years, and shall also be liable to fine.

Any person of the Qadiani group or Lahore group, (who call themselves Ahmadis or by any other names), who by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations, refers to the mode or from of call to prayers followed by his faith as ``Azan`` or redites Azan as used by the Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years and shall also be liable to fine.

298-C

Persons of Qadiani group, etc, calling himself a Muslim or preaching or propagating his faith. Any person of the Qadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves Ahmadis or any other name), who directly or indirectly, posses himself as a Muslim, or calls, or refers to, his faith as Islam, or preaches or propagates his faith, or invites others to accept his faith, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation or in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years ans shall also be liable to fine.

fairdinkum #103
I meant `quotas` as in rationing of essential items for fair distribution. We have that in India, yes :-).

#104
oho sifarish? We have that in India, too :-). Better fight persecution face to face

Re Protest in NY:
ditto.

Sadhana

And one more thing sadhna...would you leave my friend ylh alone (on the other board)? he is a top bloke :)

iss quota system say kab jaan chootay gi.. I always had the wrong domicile for everything.. :)
you have quota system in India too?

fairdinkum #101
Its a `telling-off` quota system, I`m a member too :-).

sadna #100
“You may be on safer theological grounds cursing Indians, there is a good reason there at least to use a Satanic language. :-)”

why was I told off then? :)
Sadhna, you have double standards.... i would like to register a strong protest about the disciminatory treatment I got from you :)

urstruly #97

“I envy pragmatists and people with common sense. But unfortunately the common-sense is not so common either.”

Common sense ain’t nothin but prejudices accumulated by age 18 (AI)…so don’t envy people with common sense. :)

I am disappointed by Omar’s stance. I think Omar is young, emotional, and very passionate about his views… or perhaps, in the fine tradition of lawyers; he wants his fee deposited in his trust account (in advance) before he embarks on a thorough analysis of blasphemy law, and gives us his esteemed legal advice :)

hamidm #82
``Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends``
Isn`t there something which says ``Let not the believers speak the tongue of the unbelievers so well`` .
You may be on safer theological grounds cursing Indians, there is a good reason there at least to use a Satanic language. :-)

Sadhana

re hamidm`s various fatwas:

Man you are too funny for your own good. Please write more regularly.

later

-sac

Hummm, we have The Fencer and The Consultant here already , I wonder where the Puppet Master is?

RE: Fairdinkum

Now that you have seen the Exhibit O, you will probably understand better whom I call the ``so-called Liberals and the Secularists`` (or ``confused/dishonest/`` etc for that matter). The emphasis is on the word ``so-called``. I know that addressing such people as Liberals and Secularists is an insult to the notions of Liberalism and Secularism but I ashamedly admit that I do not know any other way to address them. I just try to be polite and also that is what these people claim to be. Anyway, it is our responsibility to identify and expose the bigots among our ranks (not just the others ranks) and start treating them as such. Otherwise there will always be an impasse.

I do not believe in the terms `absolute religionist` or `absolute liberal`. There is no such thing. The world is gray. Only bigots make everything either dark or white. Although I am not in a habit of judging people and handing over character certificate yet, like everybody else, I do evaluate people. On one hand if I have deep respect for the people who are a living example of, ``Wafadari B`shart-e-ustawari asl-e-Iman ast`` on the other hand I envy pragmatists and people with common sense. But unfortunately the common-sense is not so common either.

I hope the above clarified certain things. By the way, you, my friend, is neither a liberal nor a secularist (for crying out loud); we still have to see about pragmatism and common sense though ;)

As far as, Blasphemy Law and other matters are concerned, as per this article, the author has refused to provide any evidence to substantiate his claims. He has even refused to discuss this matter further. I wonder why he brought his ``chaabri`` here in the first place. He is urging people to buy something, which he is not willing to sell.

RE: Hamidm

The problem with dark sarcasm is that most of the time it is only you who finds himself laughing.

hamidm #91,

Why do you have to bring religion into it, even if in a humorous sense?

tahmed321 #89

Why do Sunni Muslims have such pathetic sense of humor? :)

hamidm #91:

``our great spiritual leader Ameer-ul-Momineen Mullah Omar, saw the dangers inherent in the decadant western nonsense of equality for women when he decided to banish them to the inner sanctum where they can serve God and His reagent on earth - Man.....``

May God bless our Ameer-ul-Momineen. Takbir!

urstruly #88:

You say: ``By the way I am the idiot here, in case you were wondering``

I concur:)

Take care.

himidm #82 you write ``consorting with Christians, Ahmedis and, Astaghfirullah, Hindus and other assorted Unbelievers is shameful, pitiful, and quite unbecoming of a Momin``

By participating in Chowk then, you are guilty of the ``shameful`` conduct your write about. I am sure this simply logic will not register with you though, nor are you capable of understanding what it means to be a Muslim (or even a decent human): People like you are the only kafirs on earth.

To the Christians, Ahmedis and Hindus who may have found the above post offensive, I can only say this: I am a sunni Muslim and a Pakistani and proud of being one. I can assure you what this man wrote speaks only of his way of thinking.

Very interesting news from today.

Jamiat Ulemae Islam (JUI) is one of the most influential religious party. One of its office bearer, I think Dr. Khalid Soomro is under arrest in a case of Blasphemy in Dadu Sind. JUI is making a huge hue and cry. (It only shows that it is a convenient tool in the hand of police to harass. But this is a good way of taking care of blasphemy law.)