Protest in New York!

Urstruly:

Don`t be so hard on yourself. We all have a personalized idiot living inside of us. :)

Zahra baji:

Shukriya, apnay humsay baat ki,

hum bikhar say gaye.

scout #84

............. i would like to remind scout that according to the great monotheistic tradition God is definitely a ``He`` ...... and even though the revisionist Christians have given ``Him`` a mother - for which they will certainly burn in hell - most ``real`` men, in addition to not eating quiche, do not call their mothers when settling spiritual or temporal matters ......after all, didn`t God crate us in ``His`` image ? ................ perhaps our great spiritual leader, Ameer-ul-Momineen Mullah Omar, saw the dangers inherent in the decadant western nonsense of equality for women when he decided to banish them to the inner sanctum where they can serve God and His reagent on earth - Man.....

Assad_K: #83: I am not quite sure why there are hardly any Hindus in the Pakistan military. Since there aren`t that many, I am not quite sure how they would be treated, if there were quite a few. I don`t know why they don`t join. Perhaps it has something to do with the areas they come from. Very few people from rural Sind join the military. And I believe most of the Hindus live in rural Sind.

RE: Zahra, Scout

I learnt a valuable lesson at this board i.e never argue with idiots, they drag you down to their level and beat you up with experience.

(By the way I am the idiot here, in case you were wondering)

RE: OMAR1974

Thank you. That`s all I wanted to know.

An interesting narrative.

Although I do not agree with the steps taken by the writer, but being an individual he is very much entitled to flow with his own thoughts and ideas.

What motivated me to write was some of the interacts :-))) I am amused to read Scout`s analysis. The less I say the better it will
be :-))

Scout:

Buha`t Patae` Kee Advice Thee` Hae`. Well, you should start a formal consultancy practice. I am sure there will be quite a few who would like to be your disciples :-))

I loved the humor!

Take Care & Keep it up!!!

Re: The anonymous Urstruly’s comments

Lets get something very clear. I am nobody’s official spokesman. I follow the dictates of my own conscience, I am not a herd animal. I think for myself. Unfortunately, that makes me dangerous to people like Urstruly. Its conceited people like him, that sat down 1000 years ago, and decided that `the gates of Ijtehad should be closed` because no further human progress was likely and the principles that society had developed by then were perfect, and could never be improved upon, since no unforseen social changes were ever likely to occur in the future. The consequences of that are the intellectual stagnation we see in the Muslim world today all around us.

As I had predicted earlier in these posts, rather than deal with the issues in this article, these closet Jamaatis prefer to make me personally the issue of any discussion, rather than the issues I have raised. The reason is simple, these people have absolutely no answers to the uncomfortable kinds of questions I have raised. For this reason I don’t think my further participation in this discussion serves any useful purpose.

The Mullah line: We want to treat others in a way that we ourselves would not want to be treated if we were standing in their shoes. And we want them to know we are doing them a favor by ‘tolerating’ their presence in Islamic Pakistan.

My View: I will treat others no better or worse than I would demand to be treated myself in their shoes. The Blasphemy law & Separate Electorates are simply morally WRONG. The treatment of minorities and their status in society in Pakistan is Unconscionable. And the Quaid-E-Azam would agree. None of this is palatable to the likes of Urstruly.

OMAR MIRZA

P.S

HERE IS THE URL LINK TO SEE THE ARTICLE ON THE PAKISTANI PLAYERS WHO GOT A FREE HAIRCUT !

http://sidebar.cnn.com/2000/ASIANOW/central/07/19/taliban.soccer.ap/

This article and it`s replies somewhat proves that all men can do is talk gibberish, and put each other down in the name of argument or to prove their ``Godly`` wisdom or wit.

Besides Kabulliwallah and some others, I suggest all of you need to spend more time in the intellectual company of level headed females, before you become into full fledged morons.

Call your mothers.

scout

Umairr re: 78

I wonder what the reasons would be for the absence of Hindus in the army.

Is there a feeling amongst them that they would be persecuted in the army?

Would there be any substance to such a feeling?

Will this Hindu cadet be the equivalent of the first coloured and women cadets at

West Point, I wonder, and lead to higher numbers in the future.

Bilal re: 76

I was referring to the Pakistani posters on the Chowk (unless it was a case

of me seeing what I want to see!). The feeling seems to be that the Army

remains relatively free of religious biases, and is merit based with ones

religion not being an issue. Perhaps egalitarian was an incorrecnt choice of word?

................. it is rather presumptous for simple-minded folks like us to try and understand the Grand Design ..... this constant babble by placard carrying liberals who, on their way to Starbucks, linger to picket and boo our Amir-ul-Momineen and his trusted Vizier J.J., is irritating and bordering on blasphemy ............ consorting with Christians, Ahmedis and, Astaghfirullah, Hindus and other assorted Unbelievers is shameful, pitiful, and quite unbecoming of a Momin .......... to those who, under the influence of espresso, ecstasy or apple-pie, give way to these pagan liberal emotions, let me say that when in doubt one should seek guidance from the source of all wisdom :

[3.28] Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.

................ so please stop behaving like mid-town bohemians and let`s embrace the spirit that once made Islam great and Muslims proud .......

Omar,
It is not enough just to shout and protest about injustices. You are a law student, where is you case (with facts, figures, and proof)?

urstruly has provided the text of blasphemy law in its entirely. Where is your analysis of this law?

Urstruly #75

Dear urstruy,

Some times, people say a lot by remaining quiet.

Whereas Omar has chosen to express his disapproval of blasphemy laws by going out in the street and shouting, you have chosen to avoid ‘them and us’ approach & fight the injustices from within the system. But I am sure you both want things to change for the better. In my personal opinion, your approach to try to change things from within may be more effective and stands a better chance of success than Omar’s approach of clearly marking the line, and publicly denouncing such practices/laws as honor killing, and blasphemy laws etc. There is a strong argument (presented here on this board by some) that such behavior of ‘liberal’ Pakistanis (as Omar’s decision to protest publicly) in the West only strengthens the extremist elements in countries like Pakistan. Western media is biased against Islamic countries, and such actions, only provides fuel to western media to carryon their malicious campaign against Muslims. This adversely affects the efforts of those who have chosen to remain in Pakistan and fight (for reforming the system) from within.

And then there are people like me who, when it comes to religion & spirituality, are inconsistent, sometimes confused, and eternally searching - unable to reconcile their faith/religion beliefs with their conscience, and yet unable to side completely with either religionists or ‘liberals’ (as you some times refer to them). Issues such as blasphemy laws or treatment of women by Islamic fundamentalists are instances where I have no doubts about where I stand; I am wholeheartedly with ‘liberals’. However, there are instances where I find myself on cross roads. And there are instances where I find myself leaning towards religion. People like me are of not much use to either religionists or liberals. I suspect that majority of people fall in this category. They are not willing to commit themselves completely to any ideology or dogma. They prefer to make up their minds (on any issue) on a case-by-case basis. Some call them pragmatists; others call them “inconsistent/confused/dishonest” :)

You say: “It is better to be honestly dishonest than being dishonestly honest”.

May be we are all honest in our desires. Some firmly believe in their righteousness and are sure of their destiny – they are blessed people indeed. Others, and I include myself in this category are not so blessed, and prefer to reevaluate themselves and their worldview from time to time.

Take care.

``Pakistani Hindus``

Now there`s an oxymoron if I ever heard one. The country was created for the purpose of separating Hindus and Muslims -- the Hindus who chose to stay back had it coming....according to a recent article I read somehwere (Chowk?) the geniuses are finally deciding to leave.

tahmad321 #34: ``Why are militaries such good melting pots? Possibly it is the ``langar`` food that is served in military camps around the world, or perhaps a sense of companionship in misery, who knows...``

I have thought about this quite often. Specially when I got out of the military, and noticed the differences in acceptance of minorities, and (specially) people from poor families, in the general civil environment and the military. I think the Pakistan military (and militaries, in general) is more accepting of minorities due to the following reasons:

People join the military as young teenagers. At that age they haven`t quite been exposed the, ``real world`` situation in civilian societies. Their minds are still quite, ``moldable.`` They go through 2 to 6 years of training as cadets. During this time, they are thrown together with people from all corners, and all social levels of the Pakistani society. Rich, poor, Muslim, non-Muslim, Punjabi, Sindhi etc. etc. are all in the same batch, and live identically. From day one, they are taught to be loyal to be their course mates, their units, their military, and their country. Everything else like religion, ethnicity takes a back seat. By the time, the cadets become officers; they have all been molded into a standard military officer. The bad part is they lose parts of their individuality. The good part is they lose their religious and ethnic biases also. Everyone dresses the same, talks the same, and essentially becomes a similar entity. Their military identities overshadow their ethnic and religious identities.

The second reason is that militaries have a very strong concept of seniority based on rank. Rank is everything. A Major is senior to a Captain; even if the Major is a Christian from the poorest rural area of Sind, and the Captain is the Sunni son of the wealthiest jagirdar in the same area. All promotions are based on time spent in the military, so the Major will always remain senior to the Captain.

The third reason is that in the military, people`s lives depend on each other during peacetime training, and definitely during wartime. If a soldier is relying on his colleague to cover his back while he is charging to, ``take the hill,`` then the fact that the person covering him is from another province or another religion becomes immaterial. If a soldier is willing to put his life in the hands of a soldier from another religion, then he would be more than happy to socialize with him also.

Another reason is that the Pakistan military (all militaries) has a 100% literacy rate. It is the most educated and by far the most merit based organization in Pakistan. The poorest of the poor can join and become generals. In fact, many generals come from poor backgrounds.

A friend of mine who topped his class at PMA was the son of a sepoy. Some of his course mates were sons of millionaires. This guy is on the fast track, and will probably be a general someday. As a civilian, his millionaire course mates would have left him far behind (perhaps not even socialized with him). Two of my friends who topped their respective courses in the Air Force did not have running water in their homes. Yet both of them will probably become Air Marshals, someday. One of my flying instructors was a Christian from a poor background. For about six months, he held my future in his hands, and could have easily kicked me out of flying had he wished (hence my respect for Christian Pakistanis). Two other instructors were Parsis. I sat in the same cockpit with them, twice a week, for eight months, yet did not find out about their religious affiliations till later. No one asked, and no one cared. Look at Musharraf. He is a muhajir running the most powerful institution in Pakistan, as well as the whole country. All his generals follow his orders, be they Muslim, non-Muslim, Punjabi, Pathan etc. What chance does a muhajir have in the Pakistani civilian sector of reaching the top position in the country? There are hundreds of other examples.

There are some groupings and some discrimination in the military as well. It is definitely not perfect, in this regard. But on the whole, my experience has been that the Pakistan military is, by a wide margin, more merit based and accepting of people from all walks of Pakistani life, than civilian Pakistan. Mostly due to the reason described above.

Assad_K: #``I don`t know of the status of Hindu officers/soldiers in the armed forces (since the general consensus seems to be that it is the most egalitarian of institutions in Pakistan)``

I never met a single Hindu in the Pakistan military. I heard of one Hindu cadet, who was under training. The fact that everyone knew about him is an indication that there probably aren`t many, if any, Hindus in the Pakistan military. The military is open to them, just like it is open to all minorities. However, very few join, or are able to join.

bahmad #76: ``Comment: Asad, are you kidding about the egalitarian character of the Pakistan army? General consensus among whom?

My dictionary defines egalitarian as: ``Affirming, promoting, or characterized by belief in equal political, economic, social, and civil rights for all people.``

I have read your passionate criticisms of the Pakistan military with great interest. I was a big critic of the military myself, while I was serving in the military. That is why I didn`t last long, and was basically, ``shown the door.`` However now that I no longer wear a uniform (and have spent some time in the Pakistani civilian sector), I am able to form a more objective view. On the whole, I have developed a lot of respect for the Pakistani military (and all militaries)now; specially for soldiers of the rank of Colonel and below. The most difficult thing in the world, in my opinion, is to kill or be killed, to satisfy the desires and to protect people other than one`s own self. Believe me, going into combat makes running a .com look like a walk in the park.

Did you ever get a chance to serve in the Pakistan military? Have you had a chance to see it from the inside? I would be interested in finding out the reasons behind your views.

KabuliWallah!

You hit the nail on the head.

No tolerance, but taking the person what he/she is.

As far as my interactions with Hindus in my country. Hindus are mostly in Sind Interior and do as good and as poor as their other Muslim partners. They suffer not only together due to the Feudal system, but are also involved in crimes together. The politics of religious parties (and not Islam) most people hate and is certainly disadvantageous for Hindus. But most people as rightly said by someone co-exist and that bond is greater than any hatred propagated by religious parties.

During my college years two Hindus shared rooms with us for a while. (We would share bed even as space was short). Initially they started with some religious discussion with an intent of maligning and found retort. But later within a few days we learned what to discuss. After one year one of them got married and we travelled on ``Chakra`` (if anyone knows) in Thar desert to his wedding and were received well.

During my training in Pakistan one of my fellow was Hindu by the name of Murli Dhar. He was a very nice person (probably some higher caste fair color always smiling) and it never occured to me that he was a Hindu. His wife was also Hindu and used to visit him. (At that time I was unmarried and his wife was angry on him. And for the first time I came to know that hormonal changes affect the temperament)

In Sind, Apart from the sword of some religious parties, which hang on Hindus as well as underpriviledged Muslims, there is a good harmony

between people.

I agree with anyone, who says that quacks of politics should be shot who incite hatred.

In response to Asad_K (Reply # 74)
Dear Asad:

Your statement: ``I don`t know of the status of Hindu officers/soldiers in the armed forces (since the general consensus seems to be that it is the most egalitarian of insititutions in Pakistan)....``

Comment: Asad, are you kidding about the egalitarian character of the Pakistan army? General consensus among whom?

My dictionary defines egalitarian as: ``Affirming, promoting, or characterized by belief in equal political, economic, social, and civil rights for all people.``

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad