Protest in New York!

slink #39, ``so keep shouting, yelling and waving

placards (as well as studying for your degree) and who knows..maybe one day you`ll be in a position to actually bring about change in the system.``

African Americans shouting for their civil rights in US during the 60`s brought about changes, BUT

this protest won`t bring changes to Pakistan. This country of ``peace and justice and equality`` doesn`t really give a damn about PAkistan or it`s people.

Shouting, yelling, and waving placards: Is that all we can do? And if it is, it is worth the while?

The only thing it will do, is spread awareness to some segments of the Pakistani-American families,

and most of these are impotent members of the state of Pakistan or they`re too busy accumulating wealth to care or stop and think.

Omar Mirza and others!

Does it make any difference if I say Islam is my RELIGION or Christianity is my RELIGION or Liberalism is my RELIGION.

If I am blinded to the facts, whether in the name of liberalism or Islam or Christianity, for me they are same. For one praying is the highest goal, for other drinking is the highest achievement.

Having said that. You did not read my post.

Your title was ``Stop killing of Christians``. You have not given a single incident for that. So I referred that if you are a lawyer present your case properly (and not demonstration by Mullah as proof of killing).

I don`t justify blasphemy law and I stated that clearly that it is tool in the hands of police to harrass. But Blasphemy law in some form is important not because of poor christians in Pakistan, but Dadas of world, who have too much pain for plight of East Timor and Christian killings in India, but are dead on Kashmiri Muslims. Iraqi children are cattle to be left to die until their conscious wakes up by shortage of Oil supply. These Dadas of world will spare nothing to humiliate Muslims and their culture, and with money power they can do everything.

I have very good relations with Muslims and non Muslims throughout my career. For one I respect them and in turn get respect. (If some body wants to disrespect, should not expect respect in return, until off course with Danda)

Christians are advancing in Pakistan. Who are Christians, the same Shudar who were destined to do dirty job and christianity saved them a little humiliation, but our culture has been reluctant to give them equal status (may be for who will clean then). Christians are advancing and should advance. They have started to come in education, business etc. Our society does not have to throw Islamic Culture to give Christians equality, it has to shed the vestiges of caste system deeply ingrained in the psyche of our people.

There is no inferiority related to job, in Iran as much as I have seen.

In short we have to find ways:

1- To repeal the blasphemy law in its present form.

2- Enact some form of Blasphemy law for the protection of Muslim beliefs. (Apart from reason given above by me regarding Dadas of world, I don`t think prophet PBUH ever punished anyone for maligning him and therefore the justification.)

3- Fight the people who for personal gains use Islam (or Liberalism or christianity).

To YLH!

You have just stepped in the politics, and become dishearted. I think we need more people like you. Conscientious and fight for what they believe in. You will learn with time and mature + your thinking will change and adapt with time. Don`t get disheartened by fundoos. Thought interaction is a two way thing. If you are influenced by someone, they are influenced also. In the end only truth remains.

There is an Ayah in Koran regarding truth and falsehood and I like it very much.(The meaning is something like this) Smelting of iron produces a lot of scum which is blown away by air (that is falsehood) and what remains is pure iron (i.e truth). So what remains ultimately is truth and rest is blown away.

THIS IS WHERE TO START IF YOU WANT TO HELP CHANGE PAKISTAN:

http://www.care.org.pk

I met the lady who runs it this past summer in N.Y, at a fundraiser. She is very passionate about giving poor children a chance in life. A lawyer by training (not practice) naturally ... she topped the Punjab Bar results.

CARE is a non-profit NGO. At the moment they are awaiting the legal status in the U.S, that will make your contributions tax deductible. They are audited by reputable accounting firms in Pakistan.

Frankly, I don`t know a better cause to send Zakat money to. CARE NEEDS YOUR HELP TODAY. Even small amounts make a big difference in poor children`s lives. Please give whatever you can, as often as you can.

In response to Urstruly (Reply # 16)
Dear Urstruly:

Thanks for the address: http://hem.passagen.se/dpaul/index.htm

I am ashamed that the Pakistani state and society could be so cruel to our miniscule religious minority. What responsiblity should the state of Pakistan bear for producing and sustaining one or more generations of senseless Pakistanis who lack basic human values.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

dear omar,

well written and hard hitting. why don`t you send it to tft as well?
as for whether your protesting in new york will help change things in pakistan...of course it will. maybe not in this lifetime, but i think we`re all prepared for that. so keep shouting, yelling and waving placards (as well as studying for your degree) and who knows..maybe one day you`ll be in a position to actually bring about change in the system.

the blasphemy law...
there was to be no change in the blasphemy law but a procedural amendment to the process in which a case is registered and reviewed. the governement has been very very clear about that.

minorities in the armed forces...
my mamu was part of the original team that mapped out the siachen area, had a command position in the `65 war and the `71 war. his many stories of being in combat and being in the armed forces are free from any kind of resentement or complaint. apparently, the people he worked with were united by an emotion greater than their religous differences, love for pakistan.

things might be a little different now.

someone asked whether anyone has been convicted recently. yusuf ali (formerly and army man) was sentenced to death by a lahore court last month for claiming to be the prophet Mohammed. according to his accusers of course.

Re: KRashid post #1

I grew up in, and lived in Pakistan. I have spent the first half of my life there, and visted frequently since then. In addition, that i am very intimately familiar with Pakistan should be obvious from this article, and the links to previous previously published articles i have authored on Chowk. In addition i have also been writing in to Dawn & TFT since late last year, till Mushy compromised with the Mullahs on his program, and i decided not to waste my valuable time any longer to do so.

As for my being a lawyer, why should that surprise you? Jinnah was a British trained lawyer ... and he & I certainly have a lot more in common in terms of the way we think and analyse issues, than any graduate of a Pakistani Maktab today will ever have in common with him.

Just to be clear, the man ate and drank as he pleased. He would never stand with either Zia or the Mullah bigots. And he was a Bori. Do you really think he would support the establishment of a theocracy in which religious minorities are treated the way there are today in Pakistan? If so, you need to learn more about him, and his political thoughts.

Also, just in case anyone starts to wonder, i am a Sunni Muslim., i.e certainly part of the religious majority in Pakistan. I was there to protest on principle, not just for Christians, but ALL religious minorities similarly situated in Pakistan.

You need to learn to read more carefully. As for the last sentence in the article, frankly, if, I, with an Undergrad degree from NYU (with a double major in Political Science & History) make any remotely historical statement/judgement, you should believe its thought out very carefully. I well know the meaning of my words and phrases. And i don`t suffer from having taken the `NAPAK STUDIES` course in, `historical blindness, lies, omissions and distortions.`

In general i would prefer to stay out of this debate/posts as much as possible, having authored the article itself. Its my experience/conclusion that a jury of just 12 people deliberating behind a closed door never misses much, and there are a lot more people here to discuss the issues and give their opinions, and i welcome that (though not the double posts). And the purpose of my writing was to stimulate an honest discussion about a variety of issues among Chowkwalas, not to have me continue to write. So I`ll take a back seat at least for a while, although if issues are raised, and not addressed, i`ll provide a reply, since i can easily provide the answers, though i`d much rather other folks come up with `the answers` after thinking about the questions involved, then me jumping in.



Here is an interesting link someone e-mailed me:

http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ReportersAlley/rpoa/index.html

Btw, I will be visible with my placard (Which KRashid should have read more carefully as well) at major Pakistani-American events in the N.Y area from now on, including 14th August. I welcome your support, but I`ll be there even without it, as long as i can make time.

Knotyourcupoftea@aol.com

OMAR MIRZA

By the way, looks as though Pakistan isn`t the only country engaging in religious discrimination.

I happened to come across an interesting demonstration on C-SPAN, live from Washington DC.

It was the Indian American Christian Coalition of North America, protesting against the Indian government and the closing down of Christian institutions and the killings of hundreds of Christians in India. The suffering that these people have faced is horrible.

While in Pakistan, religious discrimination is a clear picture, India is doing the same evil deeds under the ``purdah`` of secularity.

Both countries need a tremendous amount of civil rights reforms.

Getting rid of the blasphemy law will be, in my opinion, impossible. I come to this conclusion after many a year spent trying to work out how section 295 of the Pakistan Penal Code can be repealed.

Section 295 is made of three parts. The first sub-section, of English origion, makes it an offence for any member of any religious community to commit a blasphemy towards any other religious community.

Sections B and C, introduced by the late General Zia (bless his cotton socks), make it illegal (and punishable by life sentence and death respectively) to blaspheme against the Prophet Mohammad or the Holy Quran, whether by act, word or implication (whatever that means).

As a result numerous non-muslims, and even some muslims, have languished in jail, or have faced the wrath of lynch mobs. To my knowledge, all the cases, though resulting in convictions in the sessions courts, have been dismissed by the High Courts. It is obvious the law is misused. Usually, it is a property dispute, with one party accusing the other of blasphemy, which results in imprisonment (as the offence is punishable by life imprisonment or death, the offence is non-bailable). In some cases, a misinformed mob (as was the case with the unfortunate Hafiz-e-Quran in Gujranwala a few years ago) takes the law in it`s own hand at the incitement of a few (in that case, it was the jealousy of a next door neighbour).

The solution: Pakistan is too religiously charged at this stage in time for anyone to attempt to remove section 295 from the statute books. In any case, we need a law to protect our non-muslims from the excesses of their muslim citizen brothers. One solution is to change the procedure of arrest as laid out in the Criminal Procedure Code, whereby the accused would not be arrested at implication, but only after a local magistrate (or deputy commissioner) has carried out a preliminary investigation and has grounds to believe the accusation is true. But even this solution is capable of being misused - after all, if you manipulate the police, what can stop you from manipulating the local administration. This solution is, in the absence of any other, the best one going.

There are people in Pakistan who often resort to citing cases of Blasphemy in England, as if the legal system there has been transported from heaven. They resort to the convictions in the Gay News case of some decades back. But they fail to understand the subtle change the English Law Lords were attempting to undertake. Gay News was accused of publishing a homosexual account of Christ, and was duly taken to court by Christian Bible thumpers. The first instance judge found the publishers guilty (in his judgment, he wrote of the Lord`s invisible hand guiding him). The case wound it`s way up to the House of Lords, where in a two-two split, it was up to Lord Scarman to cast the deciding judgment. Scarman ALSO found the publishers guily, but for good reason: The issue was whether the ecclesiastical offence of blasphemy was a strict liabilty offence or not, in other words, was guilty intent required for the offence. Can one`s innocent words, if blasphemously construed, result in a conviction? Or do the words have to have meaning in the mind of it`s speaker? Scarman judged that intent was not neccasary: that the words themself were enough to result in blasphemy. Scarman`s reasoning, however, was profound: By making the ofence of blasphemy not rest on intent, he tried to widen it`s scope to include other religions. He was trying to make the hitherto ecclesiastic (and Christian) offence of blasphemy equally applicaple to other religious communities in England.

So, to those who quote the English cases: Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Omar, as I said, well done. I wish I was there with you. I would have thrown eggs on the erstwhile Javed Jabbar (your question stand answered) and any other symbol of authority that dared condescend to the crowd.

Take care, well written, and well done.

Rafay

Good article Omar, nicely written, good sentiments expressed...BUT...who gives a damn?

NY City is a big place, with many protests occuring every day. Yes, they get 2 minutes worth attention on the local news. BUT is that significant to solve the problems, especially if the problems aren`t even in the US?

Superficial protests and parades won`t get you anywhere Omar. We, as Pakistanis who care about our country, need to get to the heart of the matter. We need to start from the bottom up.

Educate yourself, help educate Pakistanis in Pakistan. Only when you get the average Pakistani`s mind out of the grips of the fundamentalists through education and free thinking, will you get anywhere with regards to the rights of minorities.

Parading around Manhattan will only make you feel good about yourself, it won`t stop any Blasphemy Law or other social injustices occuring in Pakistan.

You can be as passionate in your protests and writings as you want, but unless you take your law degree (whenever you get done with it), gather some other bright young educated Pakistanis together, and go make some changes to Pakistan IN Pakistan, things will remain the same.

In conclusion, I commend you for at least thinking about other religious groups in your country. It`s a start, however small, and I`m not being patronizing.

scout

Umairr and Fuzair (in earlier posts) rightly point out that minorities are in general not discriminated against in the military (Indian or Pakistani). This seem to be a universal characteristic: a little commented-on fact is that the civil rights movement in the US was in fact started around the late 1940`s in the US military as a result of a deliberate decision by President Truman to integrate the armed forces. It worked quite successfully it seems although it appears acceptance took time (my father visited the US in 1956 on a military training course, and recalls a single black officer in their group who would pretty much keep to himself. This struck him as very odd given that aside from this the US officers were a friendly lot who showed great hospitality to overseas trainees). Ultimate success in integrating the military paved the way for the Civil Rights movement of the 1960`s.

Why are militaries such good melting pots? Possibly it is the ``langar`` food that is served in military camps around the world, or perhaps a sense of companionship in misery, who knows...

PM

And by the way we do have public broadcasts on TV explaining the significance of the white part of the flag...All those who were in Pakistan this 14th of August will know what I am talking about...

In Defence of Musharraff...

I sincerely believe and as does my close friend and honorary Pakistani Tony Aschettino (he accompanied me to Pakistan this summer) that conditions in Pakistan are definitely on the upsurge... fundamentalism is being countered...

I remember the Bishop of Pakistan spoke on TV this

14th of August and he had really good things to say about Pakistan ... we are slowly but surely undoing what Zia had done. As far as the seperate electorates go ... I think that the christians and other minorities should have the right to contest and vote in general elections but also have seperate representation also just like the Women to ensure that they are in the assembley.

And believe me noone wants to start an India Pakistan match here but if any Indians are going to make any comments against Pakistan ... dont even try to ... first look what you have done to the Sikhs, christians, Muslims etc ... (lets see there was the Golden temple, and the Babri Masjid.. and then there were the churches in South India) ... So Please lay off... this is for Pakistanis only so that they contribute positively to the Pakistani community...

PM

And by the way we do have public broadcasts on TV explaining the significance of the white part of the flag...All those who were in Pakistan this 14th of August will know what I am talking about...

In Defence of Musharraff...

I sincerely believe and as does my close friend and honorary Pakistani Tony Aschettino (he accompanied me to Pakistan this summer) that conditions in Pakistan are definitely on the upsurge... fundamentalism is being countered...

I remember the Bishop of Pakistan spoke on TV this

14th of August and he had really good things to say about Pakistan ... we are slowly but surely undoing what Zia had done. As far as the seperate electorates go ... I think that the christians and other minorities should have the right to contest and vote in general elections but also have seperate representation also just like the Women to ensure that they are in the assembley.

And believe me noone wants to start an India Pakistan match here but if any Indians are going to make any comments against Pakistan ... dont even try to ... first look what you have done to the Sikhs, christians, Muslims etc ... (lets see there was the Golden temple, and the Babri Masjid.. and then there were the churches in South India) ... So Please lay off... this is for Pakistanis only so that they contribute positively to the Pakistani community...

PM

if you read Jinnah`s history carefuly ... he was always a proponent of Joint electorates ... he said this clearly in all his speeches especially the famous Nagpur speech where he said dont intermix religion with politics and got booed by people like Maulana Shaukat Ali for saying Mr Gandhi instead of Mahatma.

He did ask for a greater than percentage representation in his 14 points in seperate electorates ... and seperate electorates were accepted in principle because there was no compromise possible. However seperate electorates are a non issue ... as long as Christians and othe r minorities get the chance to vote and run in general elections too ... then the 5% representation will only be a safeguard that they are atleast represented. I believe that Omar Mirza and the minorities are asking for exactly that .. the right to vote and run in normal elections also.

In principle that should be allowed.

Pakistan Zindabad

PM

if you read Jinnah`s history carefuly ... he was always a proponent of Joint electorates ... he said this clearly in all his speeches especially the famous Nagpur speech where he said dont intermix religion with politics and got booed by people like Maulana Shaukat Ali for saying Mr Gandhi instead of Mahatma.

He did ask for a greater than percentage representation in his 14 points in seperate electorates ... and seperate electorates were accepted in principle because there was no compromise possible. However seperate electorates are a non issue ... as long as Christians and othe r minorities get the chance to vote and run in general elections too ... then the 5% representation will only be a safeguard that they are atleast represented. I believe that Omar Mirza and the minorities are asking for exactly that .. the right to vote and run in normal elections also.

In principle that should be allowed.

Pakistan Zindabad

Fuzair #14: ``it does show that the Armed Forces are the last (badly, fatally?, flawed to be sure) bastion of liberalism in the country.``

I would agree with you here.

The first shock I received when I stepped out of the armed forces into the Pakistani civilian arena was the gigantic difference in ethnic and religious tolerance within the military environment and civilian environment (the second shock was the amount of corruption prevalent in the civilian sector as opposed to the military).

The Pakistan military has traditionally had a very cohesive and tolerant ethnic and religious environment. Considering the fact that religious minorities only constitute around 3% of the Pakistani population in Pakistan, they have done quite well in the military. This includes doing well at all ranks, and not just a few making it to the top. Even now, the restrictions that have affected the traditional tolerance are due more to the desires of politicians to portray, ``their`` military as an Islamic one, rather than any internal intolerance of religious minorities amongst the ranks.

The correct assessment of tolerance is not the rank a minority officer achieves, but the position he occupies in combat. I believe one of the Chief-of-Staffs of the PAF was an Ahmedi. Quite a few Christian officers have held command combat positions, as well. Ethnic minorities have also done extremely well. And there isn`t much ethnic discrimination in the military, as a whole.

I have had Parsi and Christian instructors and colleagues. The only deciding factor amongst us was our rank and nothing else. In fact at every single base, I was stationed at, religious preaching of any kind, outside the mosque, was officially disallowed (I don`t know whether this rule is still in effect). The logic being that it would divide the units into religious groupings. Of course, this did not stop the more religiously motivated to not follow this rule. However, even their preaching/call to prayers, etc. were inclusive and not exclusive of different sects and minorities.

I think, the posts of Chief-of-Staffs will be limited to Shias and Sunnis in Pakistan in the future. This is again more due to the wishes of the politicians and the civilians they are representing. However, below that rank, I think all members of the armed forces generally are promoted on merit, and not on their ethnic and religious status. This can be seen from the fact that almost all of the officers who make it to the top ranks in the Pakistan military graduated at or close to the top of their classes as cadets at their respective academies. And the top position as a cadet is open to any religious group.

So while the general intolerance for minorities is growing in Pakistan, it is growing at much much slower rate in the armed forces.

Regarding Musharraf: I did some checking up on him from officers who know him/worked with him. Apparently, he falls on the opposite spectrum of Zia-ul-Haq as far as religious tolerance is concerned, both personally and professionally. He is a liberal. And guess what: he drinks (for some reason drinking has become some sort of a standard for secularism and liberalism in Pakistan). However, he has had to keep the liberal side of himself in check, since he is in a political position now. My own guess is that he would love to get rid of all the laws Zia-ul-Haq put in (I don`t think he is a big fan of Zia). However, due to reasons articulated in this article, he doesn`t want to open up a new front with the hardliner religious groups, until the economy is under control. I think this is the best strategy (as long as he doesn`t completely sideline the issues of the religious minorities, in the long run). His order of priorities is maybe as follows: economy/ehtasab, political restructuring, solving Kashmir, ending feudal domination, handling domestic influence of religious groups. Needless to say, he has a lot on his plate, and needs to step through the issues one at a time.

To Fuzair,

I am currently debating whether to resign or not to. I think that my image of being a ``fassadi`` and a loose cannon can be used to the best advantage at the PSA... if I make a ``fassad`` at every so called ``Islamic`` action that the fundoo president takes. So I dont know yet. I ll keep you all posted.

To Feroze K ..

If you had read my articles, you could have easily deciphered that I believe in the ideal of Pakistan and see its faults all too well. I dont like its image being ruined though ... I think if these protests were to happen inside Pakistan ... not only would they be more effective. Nevertheless it was a good thing. The minorities in Pakistan and the liberals in Pakistan need to start a political movement calling for equality and the restoration of the true ideal of Pakistan. People like Omar Mirza are ideal for heading such a movement.

PM

Oneday Inshallah Ataturkization will happen and Pakistan will become Jinnah`s Pakistan.

Let me also make it clear... that as a Muslim who believes in the essence of Islam the only political system that can be acceptable to me is the SECULAR political system for Pakistan. Therefore in my mind there is no conflict between

Islam and secular Governance. But thats just me.

Pakistan Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Zindabad

Ataturk Zindabad

Jiye Bhutto

Imran Khan for PM

Yasser Hamdani