Protest in New York!

Omar Mirza!

It is ironical that you are law students.

The example you are giving is protests by Mullahs etc.

Can you substantiate your claim by some incidences of killing of christians (which you want to stop)

Although blasphemy law in its present form is a convenient tool in the hand of police to harrass christians and should be repealed and replaced with some other form.

As you are a lawyer you might be knowing that there are some form of blasphemy laws in other countries even in so called advanced countries.

In Pakistan the people who are killed are mostly Muslims of all sort. Christians and Hindus are much much safe.

If title has any meaning, your title does not signify the subject matter.

Just a question, if you don`t mind. Have you ever been in Pakistan?

Omar Mirza,

Pakistanis have killed Jinnah ... Pakistanis have killed his spirit ... and I found this out today.

As you know I am the PSA treasurer at Rutgers. At the meeting today ... I quoted Quaid e Azam`s speech of 11th August 1947 ``religion has nothing to do with the business of the state etc`` ...

After the meeting the fundoo president of the Organization first scolded me and then threatened not to bring this particular speech up. And he is like if I do .. then he will bring Zia`s quotes up.

Omar, we at PSA rutgers need your help. WE have a board which is very liberal and is willing to keep the baneful influence of fanatics out of PSA but we have a fundoo president.

Any suggestions ?

Today I am really very very depressed.

-Pakistan Zindabad

-Quaid e Azam Zindabad

-Ataturk Zindabad

-Jiye Bhutto

-Imran Khan for PM

Yasser Hamdani

PS You are an inspiration to me OMAR

Sigalph is so right when he says that on the last

thread that Pakistani society is a constant battle between the Spirit of the Muhammad Ali Jinnah and the ghost of Mullah Omar and co .....

I have never experienced the abovementioned more than I have today.I have decided to quit PSA and move away from this nonsense... and its not because I think I have lost but because it hurts me too much inside to take this ..

krashid

a) `there are such laws in advanced countries`

unless of course you thinking of Afganistan, Sudan ... as advanced countries! Pl tell us of other advanced countris which have similar laws.

b) `hindus and christians are much safe`

so how come number of hindus ... has shrunk so much since Paksitans independence? Since the minorities have been practically extriminated, there are no more to kill. And indeed if the minorities are doing so well, why dont we see them in the armed forces, police, civil services.

Could u krashid pl tell me number of hindu,christian, sikh officers in Pak Army, Navy, Air force? or how many Generals in Pak forces were non muslims? unless of course the non muslims are all cowards!!!!

How many new temples, churches have come up in the last 5 years in pakistan.

Why cant a non muslim occupy the highest post ie PM and President in Pakistan. Surely this was not what Qaid-e-azam wanted in Pakistan? Surely there is no Quarnic injunction to this effect.

c) Is it not true that evidence provided by a non muslim is not equal to a muslims evidence.

Dear Omar,

It is heartening to know that there still are Pakistanis who feel sorry about the discrimination against religious minorities in their country. Infact it should be condemned by all throughout the world.Though incidentally Hindus do not figure in your article.may I know why? I guess they constitute less than 1% of Pak`s population. A couple of months back Star TV`s Indian correspondent Rajdeep sardesai was in Pakistan interviewing a couple of Hindus families, asking them how they were faring in Pakistan. Contrary to expectations the menfolk dressed in Pathan Suits said that inspite of discrimination faced they would never want to return to India as Pakistan is our motherland.

So coming back to your question - when these people love their country, then why does it not love them back equally? Of course the country and its majority should should reciprocate and treat them well.

A very disturbing news item appeared in the Indian Express dated 12th September which stated that atleast seven Hindu families from Leyya in Punjab ( Pakistan) have come to Rohtak (India) never to return to Pakistan again. The Muslim villagers threatened them with conversion, their children are beaten up fro playing ewith Muslim children and the womenfolk are not allowed to touch the water taps. Ab to hamari lashein hi Pakistan wapas jayengi, is what they have to say.

( K R Ashid get your facts right)

If only we could learn to do away with religious discrimination and co-exist peacefully many of our problems would be solved. Maybe Quaid-e-Azam`s vision of Pakistan could then take place.

So Omar, You did it! You did what you felt was right and what you felt was the most you could do.

But is it going to help in anyway? Are mumblings in US going to roar in Pakistan? Is Musharraf that milk of Human Kindness?



Answer is only negative. You are not fighting anybody or any system from US. To get fruits you have to fight, right where the action is. You are only giving vent to your feelings. This is not to discourage you, for what you have done is certainly better than sitting and moaning. I just can`t help but see the futility of it.

Good Work..yaar keep it up. Atleast it shows that there is more to life than religion.

Krashid #re 1

If there exists a Law which can harm a citizen only on the basis of religion, then it must be repealed. If you do not know any case of it`s use/misuse, out of ignorance or indifference, it does not make the Law any kinder.

Blasphemy is a big word and How do you define it? What is the degree of blashpemy to just manage to evade it? And why blashemy only against Islam?

See a bigger picture Krashid, They can keep you from thinking about food for sometime by feeding you religion, but how long?

Tell me what does ``separate electorate`` achieve? Why can`t people have equal rights in deciding the course of their nation?

And why separate, is religion that big a division?

Respect life, respect the difference, this is what poets call ``beauty``.

Pullu

Asking for democratic rights from a military dictator .... Reminds one of similar representations to Company Bahadur or the Viceroy with the expectation of noblesse oblige

I think one has to wait for real political reforms incl. legal reforms till when there is a democratic government and the Pakistani people say. And if the people`s representatives decide that the Blasphemy Law or Separate Electorate is a good idea, one has to accept that these policies are a part of the `structure` of the Pakistani state.

Currently, the people`s silence on any of the issues is deafening. Protests in New York are no substitute and symbolic at best.

krashid, the following news article may be of some interest to you regarding your previous observations about how the minorities fare these days.

http://www.indian-express.com/ie/daily/20000912/ina12052.html

Omar,

I commend the job you have done in talking about a political and social issue that remains eclipsed by squabbling on a national level, and the violation of political freedoms.

The fact is, much of Pakistani society educates itself to be intolerant of other communities. We laugh at difference, and we are scared by it. The Christians are one of several communities in the country that have contributed to its economic and social fabric in enriching ways - the Catholic School Board being a case in point. That recognition, and that gratitude, must be granted them.

However, it is easy to be an idealist being a Pakistani abroad - in that bastion of modern freedoms we know as New York. Do we do enough to educate our own families, friends and neighbours here, or in our forgotten neighbourhoods back home? Our children must be taught respect for all, they must see that diversity can be a source of unifying strength, and great pride. Until the next generation of Pakistanis around the world does not grow up with those values, minority rights and representation will all remain ad hoc measures... for a very manufactured equality.

Keep on posting!

Manail

Good show, Mirza!! Minorities in Pakistan should have full protection and this blasted blasphemy law should be repealed.

Dear Omar:

Notwithstanding my thoughts on your actions or motivations I applaud your dedication to the voice of your conscience. But please don`t drag Jinnah into the picture. Statements like

``If the Quaid-e-Azam, M.A Jinnah had been alive, i know which side of the barricades he would have been standing on today.``

show a complete lack of knowledge of the life and history of the man.I find it all the more appalling considering you`ve identified yourself as a law student.

later

-sac

Re: Omar

Welcome back yaar!

Omar, I have been asking that question for a while now and the answer is still elusive.

YLH, you resigned from PSA...what took you so long! My own experience with PSA, on my campus, lasted about 15 weeks. The good news is that you have taken the first step and now for the second step, open your eyes and see why your country is crying. The best help you can give your poor country is by being honest to yourself and seeing reality for it is and not by believing in falsehoods told to make a ``trap for fools``.

Do you believe in the power of one? If you have seen the reality and accepted the hollow truths as being lies, then you are freed from mental inslavement and tomorrow is the first day for the rest of your life! If your mind is free; nothing will inslave you and nothing can inslave you!

Ciao!

Omar,

I think that you yourself mention a problem facing the current regime - that of too many fronts, and something having to give. A protest may have been carried out by a 1000 mullahs.. but how large is the constituency that they represent? More to the point.. how reasonable is that constituency? We are talking about a few hundred thousand heavily armed and moderately trained men! What is more likely to destabilize Pakistan, a crumbling economy or the blasphemy law? Where should prioritization lie?

Ideally, of course, we should be able to tackle the economics and the spirits of the country simultaneously. Practically, it may not be so feasible. The blasphemy law is aberrational and easily misused. Biases against minorities must stop, and they must be seen as Pakistani first - we (as a nation, for I do not think that any of us Pakistanis on Chowk fall into the trap of looking at religion first) have to stop looking at a persons religion and making snap judgements. Everyone agrees that the basic Pakistani villager is good hearted and hospitable, but he, because of the way religion is taught, becomes a willing member of a lynch mob when religion is invoked. Education and economics are the key, to allow people to become aware.. And even in the US, after all, people do exercise discrimination, regardless of the laws of the land (hey, look! It`s vsn!).

BTW, I have not read of any recent killings on the grounds of blasphemy. Is this a lull, or something more positive? When was the last one?

I should probably add that I applaud you for the courage of your convictions, and for actually doing something. Too many of us are armchair philosophers, and getting off ones butt and doing something positive - whether symbolic or not - is great. And the power of symbolism as well must never be understated.

A question: Have Christian leaders actually attempted to have a meeting with Musharraf? And if Christians stand to gain 5% of seats, a higher proportion than they are populationwise, is that a better thing for them (how likely would minorities be to win such a proportion of seats ?).

Manoj re:4

England, for one, has a blasphemy law still in place. It probably hasn`t been applied for a long time. And before you start crowing about how we use it in Paki-land, be advised that whenever a blasphemy case has reached the courts, it has always been dismissed. Once a lower court found the person guilty, but the case was then dismissed by a higher court.

We, in India, also have the same problems with Christian, Muslims and other minority groups. Yesterday, Mr. Vaj visited Washington to attend a big conference on Indian atrocities against christians. He promised all kind of support to Christians in India and, of course, kept denying that gravity of the issue.

It is amazing how India and Pakistan are riding the same boat when it comes to basic human rights. We were seperated 50 years ago, but the germs of nastiness still exist in all of us. I guess it is hereditary.

Re: Various posts

Far be it for me to defend the ``tolerance`` of the Pakistani state but, in all fairness, I should point out that there have been many non-Muslim Pakistani Armed Forces officers.

The two highest ranking ones that I can think of have been Major General Daniel Austin and Air Vice Marshall Eric Hall, both obviously Christians. I`m not sure but I think Hall might have been promoted to Air Marshall but don`t quote me on that. There have been several Christian and Parsi Brigadiers (Jivanandham, Cardoza, Jalwala [sp?]). Several non-Muslim officers have been decorated: Gp. Capt. Cecil Chaudhury, Sq/Ldr Middlecoat, etc. On a similar note, after 1971, a Bengali officer who opted to stay on in Pakistan was promoted to Major General in the 1980s.

As far as I know, there have never been any Hindu army officers although, if I remember correctly, Raja Tridiv Roy`s son did join the Army. I`m not sure, but I think he is a Buddhist.

This record of ours is nothing compared to the Indians (an Air Force Chief was a Muslim, Manekshaw, a Parsi, was a Field Marshall, Cariappa and Thimayya were both nominally Hindus but were actually Coorgis so really animists/ancestor worshippers, Jacobs was a Jew and the list goes on) but it does show that the Armed Forces are the last (badly, fatally?, flawed to be sure) bastion of liberalism in the country.

I would really appreciate readers, if they visit the following site to see the plight of Christians in Pakistan, and answer the following questions:

http://hem.passages.se/dpaul/index.htm

Now that you have visited the site please contribute your opinion on the following:

1. Given the social setup, level of education, and considering the minority-majority ratio, in Pakistan, does (or will) the Blasphemy Law help curb vigilante-ism?

2. Blasphemy Laws in various Muslim countries were enacted in reaction to the Sulaiman Rushdie saga. Whether we like it or not the religion in Muslim countries is there to stay. Is there an alternative to Blasphemy Law that might help curb religious vigilante-ism?

3. Has anyone ever thought that only the Muslims and their ideals are vulnerable to blasphemy from Christians (it has happened in the past throughout the history and it is happening today) but the reverse can and will never be true-because Christian ideals are also Muslim ideals.

4. Is the right to blaspheme someone`s ideal a fundamental human right?

5. If right to blaspheme comes under freedom of speech then why threatening a US President is not freedom of speech? Isn`t Freedom of Speech absolute? A retired employee at Buckingham Palace wrote a book (1987) entitled ``Officially Speaking.`` About the goings on in the Royal precincts. About drunken orgies and sexual frolics among the Royalty. Mrs. Thatcher`s government suppressed the publication of this piece of Royal gossip. Is such a writing blasphemous to the royal family? Where is Freedom of Speech here? What about laws of Libel?
(I am just quoting two examples i.e from US and Britian since they are our Abba Ji, there are tens of other examples from Europe, Asia, and N-America that can be made available, if requested)

6. Any law has a potential to be abused by the enforcer. Should we also repeal the laws dealing with rape, murder, arson, theft etc. because court and police abuses them? Are we setting our priorities straight?

7. British law only protects Christianity from Blasphemy? Your input is required here.

8. Would Blaspheme Law be acceptable to the minorities if it is somehow guaranteed that it will not be used for religious persecution or it will not be used unfairly? Or minorities have to have a ``freehand``?

RE: My Last Post

The link that I provided was misspelled. The correct one is:

http://hem.passagen.se/dpaul/index.htm

I regret the error.