Protest in New York!

Omar Mirza

Good for you!

And a well-written article, too, in my opinion. The principle of equality is always worth upholding, the issue may be either its denial or its violation.

This may be of interest:
(re: Indian protests in New York)
http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/sep/08pmus11.htm

Sadhana

Re: YLH

I decided not to join the PSA in my alma mater when I realized that a major part of its time was taken up with the burning question of how best to increase turnout at the Jumma Prayers, the desirability of imposing true Sharia in Pakistan and other such weighty matters. I decided I had better things to do than to waste my time on this.

However, I would urge you to reconsider your decision to quit the PSA. If people like you abandon it to the fundo swines, then the bad guys win. In retrospect, I think I should have stayed in and fought the fundos, but there were just so many of them! So again, I would urge you to reconsider your decision but I do understand why you, like me before you, might decide not to do so.

To dream the impossible dream!
To fight the unbeatable foe!
To reach for the stars!

(with apologies for my inability to remember the actual lyrics; Prof. Ahmad is right, my memory is going)

Regards

Ferozk #11:

Blasphemy is a tree. Utter disregard for Law is the forest.

We do not have two requisites to fix the problem. Guts and Time.

Hope --- the only hope is Holi --- this time with some old fashioned revolutionary fervour and involuntary blood donation.

(Oh my friend, we have gone over this scenario many times in the past and tend to agree mostly and shake head and part --- likely might happen this time too.)

Those who have it (Power) are drunk with it; the inebriation blinds out Reality for them. Those who have not (Power) are seething with Rage; when they demolish their chains --- some 1500 years old, some 200 years old and some 50 years old --- then the land of the Pure will see vengeance with a ferocity not seen since Jalianwala Bagh.

Admission: Don’t know if I fear that moment or welcome it.

rgds,

t

PS: Fuzair: Memory? Hmmm ....I heard of goin` blind if we don`t stop ....:)

Urstruly #15

Are you serious? I mean really serious? really, really serious?

Blasphemy law is wrong period.

sadna #17

Interesting! I wonder why kashmiris.....ok, i won`t say :)

RE:FAIRDINKUM#20

I really, really, really want to see it to be proved wrong. Seriously.

Let me preface my comments by saying that I consider myself a religious and observant/devout Muslim.What the author is saying about the situation for christians in Pakistan is absolutely true and perhaps even understated.

Certainly the armed forces may have a liberel leaning and therefore may have a small number of high ranking christian officers but is that full participation in Pakistani ``citizenship`` .What about the private sector? Where does a christian have a chance in rising to any measureable stature.What about in our minds and private thoughts where a christian is simply a ``choora`` or a janitor.

In my own experience I have seen fake evidence against not only christians but also agianst Mirzai,s and Shia,s all at the behest of property disputes.

Re.Krashid...Two things..

A.I am in pakistan about three months out of the year,a place that you imply the author has never been to.

B.Think about the word ``Choora``.What do you think it means.Hoe would you feel if someone referred to you or someone you loved in that manner.Not a pretty thought is it?

Allah Hafiz.....villager

If you are interested in helping the Christian

cause, NewYork is not the right place

Ref; Urstruly #15

I agree that the right to free speech is not absolute. But I feel that this limit must be applied only in extreme cases. So let me ask you some questions which are playing around in my mind;

1. Firstly there is the problem of defining what ``blasphemy`` is. Is going against the prevailing religious orthodoxy blasphemy? If not, then are there enough safeguards in the system to prevent the law from being used to stifle all alternate points of view? I feel, and I hope you agree, that there is a fundamental problem in reconciling the objective of protecting people`s long held beliefs and of protecting the right of people to hold new ideas. Maybe in grey areas like this, it might be wrong to look for one ``right`` answer. One has to a position based on one`s judgement of where the greater good lies, knowing fully well, however, that there are cases where his judgement will be wrong. when the Kansas board rejected evolutionism before it hurt people`s beliefs and blasphemed against the bible, should the authorities have accepted their right not to have their beliefs hurt, or were they right in believing that the greater good lay in teaching students the new theory, even if it hurt a few people?

2. Do the minorities have the right to use the law to haul offending members of the majority community for blaspheming their beliefs? Often, even on Chowk, Indian gods have been derided as ``monkeys`` and as some body parts. I am sure that on the ground in Pakistan the situation is much worse. My point is that unless the minorities have the same protection that the majority has in terms of protecting their beliefs, they are being discriminated against and a law which fails to protect them adequately is institutionalizing discrimination.

I`d appreciate if anyone would comment on these issues.

-narain

It was an interesting article Omar. I believe there are many Pakistani like you who do believe in equality for all. I am glad that protests like this happen to change the system and structure of Pakistan. Our Pakistan is in choas, economically,socially and politically. Lets leave behind the Quaid`s dream. Its past, its history. What we have now the present, the future. If we can change the direction where our country is going then that itself is a big feat. And lets all forget Quaid`s vision too. The partition occured because of the so called religious differences. So as the law of nature goes ``so you sow, so you reap`` and thats what pakistan is reaping. Today there is racism against all sects of pakistanis. We have shias fighting with sunnis we have punjabis fighting with sindhis and etc. So what about the minorities? A society that has so much subconcious hatred between each other cannot protect the minorities. Eliminating those differences is a process but one cannot reach the final stage without reaching the first stage.

Today the politicians of our country remind me of two mahwaras i learn`t in my urdu classes:

``Ulta chour koutwaal ko daatay``

and `` aandhoon main kaana raja``

this is sad state of pakistan`s politics.

well to cut short my unneccesary ramblings...

a)i agree Omar that there is racism in Pakistan.

b) We have to do something about it?

but

c)But do we have practical rather than a therotical solution(s) to it?

Equality begins in the heart and mind. Yes, legal eqaulity is important, but will hardly ensure practical equality and security. The courts have yet to find anyone (Minority member or otherwise) guilty of blashphemy. Will the mere abolition (or watering down) of the law cause the lynch mobs to desist from persecuting? Or will it fire up their zeal further?

You want change? Change the textbooks used from Class One where Urdu and Provincial-language books may as well be Islamiyat ones... have public broadcasts explaining the significance of white portion of the flag... carry out some Affirmative Action measures... THEN talk about geting the common Pakistani to include religious minorities in their collective national identity.

Until such time, retain separate elcotrates. (Isn`t that what the Jinnah asked for in his Fourteen Points, fearing non-representation otherwise? -- And the RSS wasn`t even around then!!)

The Pakistan of today is not the Pakistan of Jinnnah... (and even THAT Pakistan may have been so much of a chimera). Pakistan *IS * an Islamic state and will not cease to be so without fracturing or Attaturkization. Let`s get past dreams of obtaining equality and retaining nationhood. -- In the near future anyway.



Omar, you know my feelings about your personal convictions and endeavours. Good on ya!

RE: NARAIN # 24

Your Point#1
The legal text of the Blasphemy Law may answer your question about the clarity or ambiguity in the law. The law is enlisted under Pakistan Penal Code Section 295B, 295C, and 298 A,B,C that is posted below. Is it specific enough?

Your Point# 2
I fully agree.


BLASPHEMY LAW-THE TEXT
Offenses relating to religion: Pakistan Penal code


295-B
Defiling, etc, of copy of Holy Quran. Whoever will fully defiles, damages or desecrates a copy of the Holy Quran or of an extract therefrom or uses it in any derogatory manner or for any unlawful purpose shall be punishable for imprisonment for life.


295-C
Use of derogatory remarks, etc; in respect of the Holy Prophet. Whoever by words, either spoken or written or by visible representation, or by any imputation, innuendo, or insinuation, directly or indirectly, defiles the sacred name of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) shall be punished with death, or imprisonment for life, and shall also be liable to fine.


298-A
Use of derogatory remarks, etc..., in respect of holy personages. Whoever by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation, or by any imputation, innuendo or insinuation, directly or indirectly defiles a sacred name of any wife (Ummul Mumineen), or members of the family (Ahle-bait), of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), or any of the righteous caliphs (Khulafa-e-Rashideen) or companions (Sahaaba) of the Holy Prophet description for a term which may extend to three years, or with fine, or with both.


298-B
Misuse of epithet, descriptions and titles, etc. Reserved for certain holy personages or places.
Any person of the Qadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves Ahmadis or by any other name) who by words, either spoken or written or by visible representation:
refers to or addresses, any person, other than a Caliph or companion of the Holy Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), as ``Ameerul Momneen``, ``Khalifat-ul-Momneen``, ``Khalifat-ul-Muslimeen``, ``Sahaabi`` or ``Razi Allah Anho``;
Refers to or addresses, any person, other than a wife of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), as Ummul-Mumineen;
refers to, or addresses, any person, other than a member of the family (Ahle-Bait) of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), as Ahle-Bait; or
refers to, or names, or calls, his place of worship as Masjid; shall be punished with imprisonment or either description for a term which may extend to three years, and shall also be liable to fine.


Any person of the Qadiani group or Lahore group, (who call themselves Ahmadis or by any other names), who by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations, refers to the mode or from of call to prayers followed by his faith as ``Azan`` or redites Azan as used by the Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years and shall also be liable to fine.



298-C
Persons of Qadiani group, etc, calling himself a Muslim or preaching or propagating his faith. Any person of the Qadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves Ahmadis or any other name), who directly or indirectly, posses himself as a Muslim, or calls, or refers to, his faith as Islam, or preaches or propagates his faith, or invites others to accept his faith, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation or in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years ans shall also be liable to fine.

To Fuzair,

I am currently debating whether to resign or not to. I think that my image of being a ``fassadi`` and a loose cannon can be used to the best advantage at the PSA... if I make a ``fassad`` at every so called ``Islamic`` action that the fundoo president takes. So I dont know yet. I ll keep you all posted.

To Feroze K ..

If you had read my articles, you could have easily deciphered that I believe in the ideal of Pakistan and see its faults all too well. I dont like its image being ruined though ... I think if these protests were to happen inside Pakistan ... not only would they be more effective. Nevertheless it was a good thing. The minorities in Pakistan and the liberals in Pakistan need to start a political movement calling for equality and the restoration of the true ideal of Pakistan. People like Omar Mirza are ideal for heading such a movement.

PM

Oneday Inshallah Ataturkization will happen and Pakistan will become Jinnah`s Pakistan.

Let me also make it clear... that as a Muslim who believes in the essence of Islam the only political system that can be acceptable to me is the SECULAR political system for Pakistan. Therefore in my mind there is no conflict between

Islam and secular Governance. But thats just me.

Pakistan Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Zindabad

Ataturk Zindabad

Jiye Bhutto

Imran Khan for PM

Yasser Hamdani

Fuzair #14: ``it does show that the Armed Forces are the last (badly, fatally?, flawed to be sure) bastion of liberalism in the country.``

I would agree with you here.

The first shock I received when I stepped out of the armed forces into the Pakistani civilian arena was the gigantic difference in ethnic and religious tolerance within the military environment and civilian environment (the second shock was the amount of corruption prevalent in the civilian sector as opposed to the military).

The Pakistan military has traditionally had a very cohesive and tolerant ethnic and religious environment. Considering the fact that religious minorities only constitute around 3% of the Pakistani population in Pakistan, they have done quite well in the military. This includes doing well at all ranks, and not just a few making it to the top. Even now, the restrictions that have affected the traditional tolerance are due more to the desires of politicians to portray, ``their`` military as an Islamic one, rather than any internal intolerance of religious minorities amongst the ranks.

The correct assessment of tolerance is not the rank a minority officer achieves, but the position he occupies in combat. I believe one of the Chief-of-Staffs of the PAF was an Ahmedi. Quite a few Christian officers have held command combat positions, as well. Ethnic minorities have also done extremely well. And there isn`t much ethnic discrimination in the military, as a whole.

I have had Parsi and Christian instructors and colleagues. The only deciding factor amongst us was our rank and nothing else. In fact at every single base, I was stationed at, religious preaching of any kind, outside the mosque, was officially disallowed (I don`t know whether this rule is still in effect). The logic being that it would divide the units into religious groupings. Of course, this did not stop the more religiously motivated to not follow this rule. However, even their preaching/call to prayers, etc. were inclusive and not exclusive of different sects and minorities.

I think, the posts of Chief-of-Staffs will be limited to Shias and Sunnis in Pakistan in the future. This is again more due to the wishes of the politicians and the civilians they are representing. However, below that rank, I think all members of the armed forces generally are promoted on merit, and not on their ethnic and religious status. This can be seen from the fact that almost all of the officers who make it to the top ranks in the Pakistan military graduated at or close to the top of their classes as cadets at their respective academies. And the top position as a cadet is open to any religious group.

So while the general intolerance for minorities is growing in Pakistan, it is growing at much much slower rate in the armed forces.

Regarding Musharraf: I did some checking up on him from officers who know him/worked with him. Apparently, he falls on the opposite spectrum of Zia-ul-Haq as far as religious tolerance is concerned, both personally and professionally. He is a liberal. And guess what: he drinks (for some reason drinking has become some sort of a standard for secularism and liberalism in Pakistan). However, he has had to keep the liberal side of himself in check, since he is in a political position now. My own guess is that he would love to get rid of all the laws Zia-ul-Haq put in (I don`t think he is a big fan of Zia). However, due to reasons articulated in this article, he doesn`t want to open up a new front with the hardliner religious groups, until the economy is under control. I think this is the best strategy (as long as he doesn`t completely sideline the issues of the religious minorities, in the long run). His order of priorities is maybe as follows: economy/ehtasab, political restructuring, solving Kashmir, ending feudal domination, handling domestic influence of religious groups. Needless to say, he has a lot on his plate, and needs to step through the issues one at a time.

PM

if you read Jinnah`s history carefuly ... he was always a proponent of Joint electorates ... he said this clearly in all his speeches especially the famous Nagpur speech where he said dont intermix religion with politics and got booed by people like Maulana Shaukat Ali for saying Mr Gandhi instead of Mahatma.

He did ask for a greater than percentage representation in his 14 points in seperate electorates ... and seperate electorates were accepted in principle because there was no compromise possible. However seperate electorates are a non issue ... as long as Christians and othe r minorities get the chance to vote and run in general elections too ... then the 5% representation will only be a safeguard that they are atleast represented. I believe that Omar Mirza and the minorities are asking for exactly that .. the right to vote and run in normal elections also.

In principle that should be allowed.

Pakistan Zindabad

PM

if you read Jinnah`s history carefuly ... he was always a proponent of Joint electorates ... he said this clearly in all his speeches especially the famous Nagpur speech where he said dont intermix religion with politics and got booed by people like Maulana Shaukat Ali for saying Mr Gandhi instead of Mahatma.

He did ask for a greater than percentage representation in his 14 points in seperate electorates ... and seperate electorates were accepted in principle because there was no compromise possible. However seperate electorates are a non issue ... as long as Christians and othe r minorities get the chance to vote and run in general elections too ... then the 5% representation will only be a safeguard that they are atleast represented. I believe that Omar Mirza and the minorities are asking for exactly that .. the right to vote and run in normal elections also.

In principle that should be allowed.

Pakistan Zindabad

PM

And by the way we do have public broadcasts on TV explaining the significance of the white part of the flag...All those who were in Pakistan this 14th of August will know what I am talking about...

In Defence of Musharraff...

I sincerely believe and as does my close friend and honorary Pakistani Tony Aschettino (he accompanied me to Pakistan this summer) that conditions in Pakistan are definitely on the upsurge... fundamentalism is being countered...

I remember the Bishop of Pakistan spoke on TV this

14th of August and he had really good things to say about Pakistan ... we are slowly but surely undoing what Zia had done. As far as the seperate electorates go ... I think that the christians and other minorities should have the right to contest and vote in general elections but also have seperate representation also just like the Women to ensure that they are in the assembley.

And believe me noone wants to start an India Pakistan match here but if any Indians are going to make any comments against Pakistan ... dont even try to ... first look what you have done to the Sikhs, christians, Muslims etc ... (lets see there was the Golden temple, and the Babri Masjid.. and then there were the churches in South India) ... So Please lay off... this is for Pakistanis only so that they contribute positively to the Pakistani community...