Protest in New York!

RE: Fairdinkum

Now that you have seen the Exhibit O, you will probably understand better whom I call the ``so-called Liberals and the Secularists`` (or ``confused/dishonest/`` etc for that matter). The emphasis is on the word ``so-called``. I know that addressing such people as Liberals and Secularists is an insult to the notions of Liberalism and Secularism but I ashamedly admit that I do not know any other way to address them. I just try to be polite and also that is what these people claim to be. Anyway, it is our responsibility to identify and expose the bigots among our ranks (not just the others ranks) and start treating them as such. Otherwise there will always be an impasse.

I do not believe in the terms `absolute religionist` or `absolute liberal`. There is no such thing. The world is gray. Only bigots make everything either dark or white. Although I am not in a habit of judging people and handing over character certificate yet, like everybody else, I do evaluate people. On one hand if I have deep respect for the people who are a living example of, ``Wafadari B`shart-e-ustawari asl-e-Iman ast`` on the other hand I envy pragmatists and people with common sense. But unfortunately the common-sense is not so common either.

I hope the above clarified certain things. By the way, you, my friend, is neither a liberal nor a secularist (for crying out loud); we still have to see about pragmatism and common sense though ;)

As far as, Blasphemy Law and other matters are concerned, as per this article, the author has refused to provide any evidence to substantiate his claims. He has even refused to discuss this matter further. I wonder why he brought his ``chaabri`` here in the first place. He is urging people to buy something, which he is not willing to sell.

Hummm, we have The Fencer and The Consultant here already , I wonder where the Puppet Master is?

re hamidm`s various fatwas:

Man you are too funny for your own good. Please write more regularly.

later

-sac

hamidm #82
``Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends``
Isn`t there something which says ``Let not the believers speak the tongue of the unbelievers so well`` .
You may be on safer theological grounds cursing Indians, there is a good reason there at least to use a Satanic language. :-)

Sadhana

sadna #100
“You may be on safer theological grounds cursing Indians, there is a good reason there at least to use a Satanic language. :-)”

why was I told off then? :)
Sadhna, you have double standards.... i would like to register a strong protest about the disciminatory treatment I got from you :)

urstruly #97

“I envy pragmatists and people with common sense. But unfortunately the common-sense is not so common either.”

Common sense ain’t nothin but prejudices accumulated by age 18 (AI)…so don’t envy people with common sense. :)

I am disappointed by Omar’s stance. I think Omar is young, emotional, and very passionate about his views… or perhaps, in the fine tradition of lawyers; he wants his fee deposited in his trust account (in advance) before he embarks on a thorough analysis of blasphemy law, and gives us his esteemed legal advice :)

fairdinkum #101
Its a `telling-off` quota system, I`m a member too :-).

iss quota system say kab jaan chootay gi.. I always had the wrong domicile for everything.. :)
you have quota system in India too?

And one more thing sadhna...would you leave my friend ylh alone (on the other board)? he is a top bloke :)

fairdinkum #103
I meant `quotas` as in rationing of essential items for fair distribution. We have that in India, yes :-).

#104
oho sifarish? We have that in India, too :-). Better fight persecution face to face

Re Protest in NY:
ditto.

Sadhana

Pakistanis do not have a culture of democracy. Clearly, the lack of the exercise of Freedom of Speech, Press & Assembly over extended peroiods of time in Pakistan`s chequered history, has made its impact. Even many of the posters here on Chowk exhibit that, much to my surprise. I made a promise earlier that if an issue was raised and not addressed, i would post an answer. Well everyone has had a fair opportunity to comment on this. So here goes.

Re: Sec 298B & 298C.

These statutes are religion specific, targeting a discrete & insular religious minority community directly and prohibiting them from the Free Exercise of their religious beliefs simply because they are `offensive` to Muslims. They impair freedom of conscience substantially, in addition to freedom of speech. Are these legitimiate functions for state power in the 21st century?

`in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of muslims` = Talk about handing a carte blanche to the fanatics with which to use the state apparatus to oppress a minority religious community for any reason whatsoever, and on any flimsy pretext. Very Very expansive language, in any civilized state where the judiciary was free from political pressure, and the threat of lynch mobs, the language of this statute would be struck down as a violation of the Constitutional guarantee of freedom of religion/religious practice as too overbroad. I am not however saying that if the statute was more narrowly tailored, that it would/could withstand Constitutional Scrutiny.

This is why the issue of equal rights and treatment under the law is a political issue in Pakistan much more than a legal issue. Until the political will exists, its practically a waste of time to challenge these kinds of laws in the courts. Its when Muslims from the majority religious community extend their support for equal rights and cut across the lines of religious belief in Pakistan, that things will change. Its not an ``Ahmadi`` issue, not a ``Christian`` issue, not a ``Parsi or Hindu issue``, its a HUMAN BEING ISSUE, A PAKISTAN ISSUE.

And the treatment of minorities by the law today in Pakistan is appalling.

(Whether the Ahmadis do or don`t consider themselves Muslims, does not make any difference to this discussion, for ease of reference herein, since Ahmadis are considered a minority by the masses).

O.M

298-B

Misuse of epithet, descriptions and titles, etc. Reserved for certain holy personages or places.

Any person of the Qadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves Ahmadis or by any other name) who by words, either spoken or written or by visible representation:

refers to or addresses, any person, other than a Caliph or companion of the Holy Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), as ``Ameerul Momneen``, ``Khalifat-ul-Momneen``, ``Khalifat-ul-Muslimeen``, ``Sahaabi`` or ``Razi Allah Anho``;

Refers to or addresses, any person, other than a wife of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), as Ummul-Mumineen;

refers to, or addresses, any person, other than a member of the family (Ahle-Bait) of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), as Ahle-Bait; or

refers to, or names, or calls, his place of worship as Masjid; shall be punished with imprisonment or either description for a term which may extend to three years, and shall also be liable to fine.

Any person of the Qadiani group or Lahore group, (who call themselves Ahmadis or by any other names), who by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations, refers to the mode or from of call to prayers followed by his faith as ``Azan`` or redites Azan as used by the Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years and shall also be liable to fine.

298-C

Persons of Qadiani group, etc, calling himself a Muslim or preaching or propagating his faith. Any person of the Qadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves Ahmadis or any other name), who directly or indirectly, posses himself as a Muslim, or calls, or refers to, his faith as Islam, or preaches or propagates his faith, or invites others to accept his faith, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation or in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years ans shall also be liable to fine.

RE: Fairdinkum

Khoda Pahar Nikla Chooha. I think, you are right about that fee thing.

Omar:

Haif! I wrote a long note pointing out few good points whereas few points to look into--Laiken, keyboard did not like the length of the post and baded goodbye. So I will try to jot down my thoughts in detail later. Just to briefly mention:

a) Your intent was worth appreciating, your action wasn`t. I`d never go out and chant any Darus to the PM at such a sensitive time. I`d rather try to schedule a meeting ahead of time or send a note with the issue and see the response. Please tell me what will be the result of this fiasco ? Do not misread me, as disagreeing on your stance about Human Rights/Minority Rights andd etc. Read me as strongly objecting on the steps taken to raise the concern. It was not the General who was visiting there. It was someone who was to represent Pakistan in UN.

b) Your argument on People vs Country, is emotional, patriotic, but very naive! What is a country ? What does it comprise of ? Cement ? Bricks ? Roads ? Soil ? What ?

c) It`s good to know that you are into law. I will like to write a case and would love to read your jurisprudence.

In general, I will repeat your thoughts and points were appreciable and worth addressing, but the implementation approach was not concrete and lasting. You won`t do that to a case, I hope so ?

Take Care

tahmed321 #89

``People like you are the only kafirs on earth``

...... so now Jay has some company - good company, I might add...... k for Kafir, J for Abu-Jahal and H for ..... Hypocrite ? Astaghfirullah ! i have often wondered why the poor Hypocrites are so horribly criticized, ostracized, and threatened with fire and brimstone ......... religion can`t be all that bad - what was that Janis Joplin song about going down to River Jordan, holding hands with Jesus and sitting at the table with the Master ? ......tahmed321 - I see the folly of my ways, because as the queen said :

Amazing grace

How sweet the sound

That saved a wretch like me.

I once was lost

But now I`m found

Was blind but now I see.

............. I am saved - Takbeer! Jay is still lost !

scout # 95

.....scout wants to know what does religion have to do with this and that - why ? ..... because I sincerely believe that organized religion is the mother of all evils .... even the benign, smirky, shifty-eyed Bahais and the white-shirted, bicycling polygamist-wannabe Mormons do more harm than the guys who run the trash business in NY.... as for the saffron brigade and the green-turbaned lashkars they will, Inshallah, bring the Messiah back to earth with a bang and radioactive fireworks ...... but then, as someone who has been exposed to this terrible virus, I cannot deny that it is difficult not to be in awe of burning bushes, leaping corpses and flying horses ........come Ramadhan, I will join the frenzied masses as they try to fast, pray and push their way into heaven .... incoherent ? yes - but then the whole concept is kind of ababeel-brained .....

............ last week, standing in the cellar of one of those ghoulish medieval churches in Europe I looked at the crypt which held the remains of a long-dead archbishop and wondered how many poor people had to die to satisfy his monstrous ego ...... brrrr ! ....... on the other hand, they tell me that the Kaaba is the place to be for serenity, peace and the sheer joy of gushing iman ...... whoa !...... some kafirs say the same about St. Peter`s Bascilica and those horrid temples at Benaras........ however, everyone will agree that Graceland is the true Mecca because this is where He was born - `` For unto you is born this day in the city of Memphis a Presley, which is Elvis the King``

Omar 1974!

I have only one problem with Qadiani, whether anybody likes it or not.

There is a consensus among the majority of Muslims that anybody not believing in the finality of prophet PBUH is not Muslim.

They should preach their religion as Qadiani and not Islam.

Throughout Islamic history, anybody not believing in the finality of prophet PBUH and claiming themselves to be Muslims have been persecuted, whether it is early Arab period, pragmatic Abbasid rule or Bahai and Ahmedi. They should equate themselves as Qadiani. As Christians, Jews and Muslims are related to a prophet. They should also say so.

That is just a perspective.

My teacher from class 1-10 was a Qadiani. A very great person. And did not mingle religion. In fact he incultated a habit of reading and if it was not him, I would be a technocrat (and a very intelligent person):)

Krashid,

Iam very angry with your Qadiane professor. Look what you turned out to be.

RE..post#82 Hamidm

Without a doubt The Quran Sharif is a source of incredible wisdom..however narrow minded exclusionist bigots are certainly NOT the source of it.

Are you serious? Do you really believe that we Muslims should walk around ith our noses high in the air looking down at other faiths. Please recall that the Syrian monk who consuled the Holy Prophet (pbuh) was a Christian. So I guess by your definition ther was ``consorting going on there too``?

The reason both India AND Pakistan are in the dire social situation right now is that there is no respect for basic human dignity.This is a very basic concept practised by many alleged western Kafirs today, perhaps we can learn something from them after all.

Allah Hafiz