Protest in New York!

Omar Mirza!

It is ironical that you are law students.

The example you are giving is protests by Mullahs etc.

Can you substantiate your claim by some incidences of killing of christians (which you want to stop)

Although blasphemy law in its present form is a convenient tool in the hand of police to harrass christians and should be repealed and replaced with some other form.

As you are a lawyer you might be knowing that there are some form of blasphemy laws in other countries even in so called advanced countries.

In Pakistan the people who are killed are mostly Muslims of all sort. Christians and Hindus are much much safe.

If title has any meaning, your title does not signify the subject matter.

Just a question, if you don`t mind. Have you ever been in Pakistan?

Omar Mirza,

Pakistanis have killed Jinnah ... Pakistanis have killed his spirit ... and I found this out today.

As you know I am the PSA treasurer at Rutgers. At the meeting today ... I quoted Quaid e Azam`s speech of 11th August 1947 ``religion has nothing to do with the business of the state etc`` ...

After the meeting the fundoo president of the Organization first scolded me and then threatened not to bring this particular speech up. And he is like if I do .. then he will bring Zia`s quotes up.

Omar, we at PSA rutgers need your help. WE have a board which is very liberal and is willing to keep the baneful influence of fanatics out of PSA but we have a fundoo president.

Any suggestions ?

Today I am really very very depressed.

-Pakistan Zindabad

-Quaid e Azam Zindabad

-Ataturk Zindabad

-Jiye Bhutto

-Imran Khan for PM

Yasser Hamdani

PS You are an inspiration to me OMAR

Sigalph is so right when he says that on the last

thread that Pakistani society is a constant battle between the Spirit of the Muhammad Ali Jinnah and the ghost of Mullah Omar and co .....

I have never experienced the abovementioned more than I have today.I have decided to quit PSA and move away from this nonsense... and its not because I think I have lost but because it hurts me too much inside to take this ..

krashid

a) `there are such laws in advanced countries`

unless of course you thinking of Afganistan, Sudan ... as advanced countries! Pl tell us of other advanced countris which have similar laws.

b) `hindus and christians are much safe`

so how come number of hindus ... has shrunk so much since Paksitans independence? Since the minorities have been practically extriminated, there are no more to kill. And indeed if the minorities are doing so well, why dont we see them in the armed forces, police, civil services.

Could u krashid pl tell me number of hindu,christian, sikh officers in Pak Army, Navy, Air force? or how many Generals in Pak forces were non muslims? unless of course the non muslims are all cowards!!!!

How many new temples, churches have come up in the last 5 years in pakistan.

Why cant a non muslim occupy the highest post ie PM and President in Pakistan. Surely this was not what Qaid-e-azam wanted in Pakistan? Surely there is no Quarnic injunction to this effect.

c) Is it not true that evidence provided by a non muslim is not equal to a muslims evidence.

Dear Omar,

It is heartening to know that there still are Pakistanis who feel sorry about the discrimination against religious minorities in their country. Infact it should be condemned by all throughout the world.Though incidentally Hindus do not figure in your article.may I know why? I guess they constitute less than 1% of Pak`s population. A couple of months back Star TV`s Indian correspondent Rajdeep sardesai was in Pakistan interviewing a couple of Hindus families, asking them how they were faring in Pakistan. Contrary to expectations the menfolk dressed in Pathan Suits said that inspite of discrimination faced they would never want to return to India as Pakistan is our motherland.

So coming back to your question - when these people love their country, then why does it not love them back equally? Of course the country and its majority should should reciprocate and treat them well.

A very disturbing news item appeared in the Indian Express dated 12th September which stated that atleast seven Hindu families from Leyya in Punjab ( Pakistan) have come to Rohtak (India) never to return to Pakistan again. The Muslim villagers threatened them with conversion, their children are beaten up fro playing ewith Muslim children and the womenfolk are not allowed to touch the water taps. Ab to hamari lashein hi Pakistan wapas jayengi, is what they have to say.

( K R Ashid get your facts right)

If only we could learn to do away with religious discrimination and co-exist peacefully many of our problems would be solved. Maybe Quaid-e-Azam`s vision of Pakistan could then take place.

So Omar, You did it! You did what you felt was right and what you felt was the most you could do.

But is it going to help in anyway? Are mumblings in US going to roar in Pakistan? Is Musharraf that milk of Human Kindness?



Answer is only negative. You are not fighting anybody or any system from US. To get fruits you have to fight, right where the action is. You are only giving vent to your feelings. This is not to discourage you, for what you have done is certainly better than sitting and moaning. I just can`t help but see the futility of it.

Good Work..yaar keep it up. Atleast it shows that there is more to life than religion.

Krashid #re 1

If there exists a Law which can harm a citizen only on the basis of religion, then it must be repealed. If you do not know any case of it`s use/misuse, out of ignorance or indifference, it does not make the Law any kinder.

Blasphemy is a big word and How do you define it? What is the degree of blashpemy to just manage to evade it? And why blashemy only against Islam?

See a bigger picture Krashid, They can keep you from thinking about food for sometime by feeding you religion, but how long?

Tell me what does ``separate electorate`` achieve? Why can`t people have equal rights in deciding the course of their nation?

And why separate, is religion that big a division?

Respect life, respect the difference, this is what poets call ``beauty``.

Pullu

Asking for democratic rights from a military dictator .... Reminds one of similar representations to Company Bahadur or the Viceroy with the expectation of noblesse oblige

I think one has to wait for real political reforms incl. legal reforms till when there is a democratic government and the Pakistani people say. And if the people`s representatives decide that the Blasphemy Law or Separate Electorate is a good idea, one has to accept that these policies are a part of the `structure` of the Pakistani state.

Currently, the people`s silence on any of the issues is deafening. Protests in New York are no substitute and symbolic at best.

krashid, the following news article may be of some interest to you regarding your previous observations about how the minorities fare these days.

http://www.indian-express.com/ie/daily/20000912/ina12052.html

Omar,

I commend the job you have done in talking about a political and social issue that remains eclipsed by squabbling on a national level, and the violation of political freedoms.

The fact is, much of Pakistani society educates itself to be intolerant of other communities. We laugh at difference, and we are scared by it. The Christians are one of several communities in the country that have contributed to its economic and social fabric in enriching ways - the Catholic School Board being a case in point. That recognition, and that gratitude, must be granted them.

However, it is easy to be an idealist being a Pakistani abroad - in that bastion of modern freedoms we know as New York. Do we do enough to educate our own families, friends and neighbours here, or in our forgotten neighbourhoods back home? Our children must be taught respect for all, they must see that diversity can be a source of unifying strength, and great pride. Until the next generation of Pakistanis around the world does not grow up with those values, minority rights and representation will all remain ad hoc measures... for a very manufactured equality.

Keep on posting!

Manail

Good show, Mirza!! Minorities in Pakistan should have full protection and this blasted blasphemy law should be repealed.

Dear Omar:

Notwithstanding my thoughts on your actions or motivations I applaud your dedication to the voice of your conscience. But please don`t drag Jinnah into the picture. Statements like

``If the Quaid-e-Azam, M.A Jinnah had been alive, i know which side of the barricades he would have been standing on today.``

show a complete lack of knowledge of the life and history of the man.I find it all the more appalling considering you`ve identified yourself as a law student.

later

-sac

Re: Omar

Welcome back yaar!

Omar, I have been asking that question for a while now and the answer is still elusive.

YLH, you resigned from PSA...what took you so long! My own experience with PSA, on my campus, lasted about 15 weeks. The good news is that you have taken the first step and now for the second step, open your eyes and see why your country is crying. The best help you can give your poor country is by being honest to yourself and seeing reality for it is and not by believing in falsehoods told to make a ``trap for fools``.

Do you believe in the power of one? If you have seen the reality and accepted the hollow truths as being lies, then you are freed from mental inslavement and tomorrow is the first day for the rest of your life! If your mind is free; nothing will inslave you and nothing can inslave you!

Ciao!

Omar,

I think that you yourself mention a problem facing the current regime - that of too many fronts, and something having to give. A protest may have been carried out by a 1000 mullahs.. but how large is the constituency that they represent? More to the point.. how reasonable is that constituency? We are talking about a few hundred thousand heavily armed and moderately trained men! What is more likely to destabilize Pakistan, a crumbling economy or the blasphemy law? Where should prioritization lie?

Ideally, of course, we should be able to tackle the economics and the spirits of the country simultaneously. Practically, it may not be so feasible. The blasphemy law is aberrational and easily misused. Biases against minorities must stop, and they must be seen as Pakistani first - we (as a nation, for I do not think that any of us Pakistanis on Chowk fall into the trap of looking at religion first) have to stop looking at a persons religion and making snap judgements. Everyone agrees that the basic Pakistani villager is good hearted and hospitable, but he, because of the way religion is taught, becomes a willing member of a lynch mob when religion is invoked. Education and economics are the key, to allow people to become aware.. And even in the US, after all, people do exercise discrimination, regardless of the laws of the land (hey, look! It`s vsn!).

BTW, I have not read of any recent killings on the grounds of blasphemy. Is this a lull, or something more positive? When was the last one?

I should probably add that I applaud you for the courage of your convictions, and for actually doing something. Too many of us are armchair philosophers, and getting off ones butt and doing something positive - whether symbolic or not - is great. And the power of symbolism as well must never be understated.

A question: Have Christian leaders actually attempted to have a meeting with Musharraf? And if Christians stand to gain 5% of seats, a higher proportion than they are populationwise, is that a better thing for them (how likely would minorities be to win such a proportion of seats ?).

Manoj re:4

England, for one, has a blasphemy law still in place. It probably hasn`t been applied for a long time. And before you start crowing about how we use it in Paki-land, be advised that whenever a blasphemy case has reached the courts, it has always been dismissed. Once a lower court found the person guilty, but the case was then dismissed by a higher court.

We, in India, also have the same problems with Christian, Muslims and other minority groups. Yesterday, Mr. Vaj visited Washington to attend a big conference on Indian atrocities against christians. He promised all kind of support to Christians in India and, of course, kept denying that gravity of the issue.

It is amazing how India and Pakistan are riding the same boat when it comes to basic human rights. We were seperated 50 years ago, but the germs of nastiness still exist in all of us. I guess it is hereditary.

Re: Various posts

Far be it for me to defend the ``tolerance`` of the Pakistani state but, in all fairness, I should point out that there have been many non-Muslim Pakistani Armed Forces officers.

The two highest ranking ones that I can think of have been Major General Daniel Austin and Air Vice Marshall Eric Hall, both obviously Christians. I`m not sure but I think Hall might have been promoted to Air Marshall but don`t quote me on that. There have been several Christian and Parsi Brigadiers (Jivanandham, Cardoza, Jalwala [sp?]). Several non-Muslim officers have been decorated: Gp. Capt. Cecil Chaudhury, Sq/Ldr Middlecoat, etc. On a similar note, after 1971, a Bengali officer who opted to stay on in Pakistan was promoted to Major General in the 1980s.

As far as I know, there have never been any Hindu army officers although, if I remember correctly, Raja Tridiv Roy`s son did join the Army. I`m not sure, but I think he is a Buddhist.

This record of ours is nothing compared to the Indians (an Air Force Chief was a Muslim, Manekshaw, a Parsi, was a Field Marshall, Cariappa and Thimayya were both nominally Hindus but were actually Coorgis so really animists/ancestor worshippers, Jacobs was a Jew and the list goes on) but it does show that the Armed Forces are the last (badly, fatally?, flawed to be sure) bastion of liberalism in the country.

I would really appreciate readers, if they visit the following site to see the plight of Christians in Pakistan, and answer the following questions:

http://hem.passages.se/dpaul/index.htm

Now that you have visited the site please contribute your opinion on the following:

1. Given the social setup, level of education, and considering the minority-majority ratio, in Pakistan, does (or will) the Blasphemy Law help curb vigilante-ism?

2. Blasphemy Laws in various Muslim countries were enacted in reaction to the Sulaiman Rushdie saga. Whether we like it or not the religion in Muslim countries is there to stay. Is there an alternative to Blasphemy Law that might help curb religious vigilante-ism?

3. Has anyone ever thought that only the Muslims and their ideals are vulnerable to blasphemy from Christians (it has happened in the past throughout the history and it is happening today) but the reverse can and will never be true-because Christian ideals are also Muslim ideals.

4. Is the right to blaspheme someone`s ideal a fundamental human right?

5. If right to blaspheme comes under freedom of speech then why threatening a US President is not freedom of speech? Isn`t Freedom of Speech absolute? A retired employee at Buckingham Palace wrote a book (1987) entitled ``Officially Speaking.`` About the goings on in the Royal precincts. About drunken orgies and sexual frolics among the Royalty. Mrs. Thatcher`s government suppressed the publication of this piece of Royal gossip. Is such a writing blasphemous to the royal family? Where is Freedom of Speech here? What about laws of Libel?
(I am just quoting two examples i.e from US and Britian since they are our Abba Ji, there are tens of other examples from Europe, Asia, and N-America that can be made available, if requested)

6. Any law has a potential to be abused by the enforcer. Should we also repeal the laws dealing with rape, murder, arson, theft etc. because court and police abuses them? Are we setting our priorities straight?

7. British law only protects Christianity from Blasphemy? Your input is required here.

8. Would Blaspheme Law be acceptable to the minorities if it is somehow guaranteed that it will not be used for religious persecution or it will not be used unfairly? Or minorities have to have a ``freehand``?

RE: My Last Post

The link that I provided was misspelled. The correct one is:

http://hem.passagen.se/dpaul/index.htm

I regret the error.

Omar Mirza

Good for you!

And a well-written article, too, in my opinion. The principle of equality is always worth upholding, the issue may be either its denial or its violation.

This may be of interest:
(re: Indian protests in New York)
http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/sep/08pmus11.htm

Sadhana

Re: YLH

I decided not to join the PSA in my alma mater when I realized that a major part of its time was taken up with the burning question of how best to increase turnout at the Jumma Prayers, the desirability of imposing true Sharia in Pakistan and other such weighty matters. I decided I had better things to do than to waste my time on this.

However, I would urge you to reconsider your decision to quit the PSA. If people like you abandon it to the fundo swines, then the bad guys win. In retrospect, I think I should have stayed in and fought the fundos, but there were just so many of them! So again, I would urge you to reconsider your decision but I do understand why you, like me before you, might decide not to do so.

To dream the impossible dream!
To fight the unbeatable foe!
To reach for the stars!

(with apologies for my inability to remember the actual lyrics; Prof. Ahmad is right, my memory is going)

Regards

Ferozk #11:

Blasphemy is a tree. Utter disregard for Law is the forest.

We do not have two requisites to fix the problem. Guts and Time.

Hope --- the only hope is Holi --- this time with some old fashioned revolutionary fervour and involuntary blood donation.

(Oh my friend, we have gone over this scenario many times in the past and tend to agree mostly and shake head and part --- likely might happen this time too.)

Those who have it (Power) are drunk with it; the inebriation blinds out Reality for them. Those who have not (Power) are seething with Rage; when they demolish their chains --- some 1500 years old, some 200 years old and some 50 years old --- then the land of the Pure will see vengeance with a ferocity not seen since Jalianwala Bagh.

Admission: Don’t know if I fear that moment or welcome it.

rgds,

t

PS: Fuzair: Memory? Hmmm ....I heard of goin` blind if we don`t stop ....:)

Urstruly #15

Are you serious? I mean really serious? really, really serious?

Blasphemy law is wrong period.

sadna #17

Interesting! I wonder why kashmiris.....ok, i won`t say :)

RE:FAIRDINKUM#20

I really, really, really want to see it to be proved wrong. Seriously.

Let me preface my comments by saying that I consider myself a religious and observant/devout Muslim.What the author is saying about the situation for christians in Pakistan is absolutely true and perhaps even understated.

Certainly the armed forces may have a liberel leaning and therefore may have a small number of high ranking christian officers but is that full participation in Pakistani ``citizenship`` .What about the private sector? Where does a christian have a chance in rising to any measureable stature.What about in our minds and private thoughts where a christian is simply a ``choora`` or a janitor.

In my own experience I have seen fake evidence against not only christians but also agianst Mirzai,s and Shia,s all at the behest of property disputes.

Re.Krashid...Two things..

A.I am in pakistan about three months out of the year,a place that you imply the author has never been to.

B.Think about the word ``Choora``.What do you think it means.Hoe would you feel if someone referred to you or someone you loved in that manner.Not a pretty thought is it?

Allah Hafiz.....villager

If you are interested in helping the Christian

cause, NewYork is not the right place

Ref; Urstruly #15

I agree that the right to free speech is not absolute. But I feel that this limit must be applied only in extreme cases. So let me ask you some questions which are playing around in my mind;

1. Firstly there is the problem of defining what ``blasphemy`` is. Is going against the prevailing religious orthodoxy blasphemy? If not, then are there enough safeguards in the system to prevent the law from being used to stifle all alternate points of view? I feel, and I hope you agree, that there is a fundamental problem in reconciling the objective of protecting people`s long held beliefs and of protecting the right of people to hold new ideas. Maybe in grey areas like this, it might be wrong to look for one ``right`` answer. One has to a position based on one`s judgement of where the greater good lies, knowing fully well, however, that there are cases where his judgement will be wrong. when the Kansas board rejected evolutionism before it hurt people`s beliefs and blasphemed against the bible, should the authorities have accepted their right not to have their beliefs hurt, or were they right in believing that the greater good lay in teaching students the new theory, even if it hurt a few people?

2. Do the minorities have the right to use the law to haul offending members of the majority community for blaspheming their beliefs? Often, even on Chowk, Indian gods have been derided as ``monkeys`` and as some body parts. I am sure that on the ground in Pakistan the situation is much worse. My point is that unless the minorities have the same protection that the majority has in terms of protecting their beliefs, they are being discriminated against and a law which fails to protect them adequately is institutionalizing discrimination.

I`d appreciate if anyone would comment on these issues.

-narain

It was an interesting article Omar. I believe there are many Pakistani like you who do believe in equality for all. I am glad that protests like this happen to change the system and structure of Pakistan. Our Pakistan is in choas, economically,socially and politically. Lets leave behind the Quaid`s dream. Its past, its history. What we have now the present, the future. If we can change the direction where our country is going then that itself is a big feat. And lets all forget Quaid`s vision too. The partition occured because of the so called religious differences. So as the law of nature goes ``so you sow, so you reap`` and thats what pakistan is reaping. Today there is racism against all sects of pakistanis. We have shias fighting with sunnis we have punjabis fighting with sindhis and etc. So what about the minorities? A society that has so much subconcious hatred between each other cannot protect the minorities. Eliminating those differences is a process but one cannot reach the final stage without reaching the first stage.

Today the politicians of our country remind me of two mahwaras i learn`t in my urdu classes:

``Ulta chour koutwaal ko daatay``

and `` aandhoon main kaana raja``

this is sad state of pakistan`s politics.

well to cut short my unneccesary ramblings...

a)i agree Omar that there is racism in Pakistan.

b) We have to do something about it?

but

c)But do we have practical rather than a therotical solution(s) to it?

Equality begins in the heart and mind. Yes, legal eqaulity is important, but will hardly ensure practical equality and security. The courts have yet to find anyone (Minority member or otherwise) guilty of blashphemy. Will the mere abolition (or watering down) of the law cause the lynch mobs to desist from persecuting? Or will it fire up their zeal further?

You want change? Change the textbooks used from Class One where Urdu and Provincial-language books may as well be Islamiyat ones... have public broadcasts explaining the significance of white portion of the flag... carry out some Affirmative Action measures... THEN talk about geting the common Pakistani to include religious minorities in their collective national identity.

Until such time, retain separate elcotrates. (Isn`t that what the Jinnah asked for in his Fourteen Points, fearing non-representation otherwise? -- And the RSS wasn`t even around then!!)

The Pakistan of today is not the Pakistan of Jinnnah... (and even THAT Pakistan may have been so much of a chimera). Pakistan *IS * an Islamic state and will not cease to be so without fracturing or Attaturkization. Let`s get past dreams of obtaining equality and retaining nationhood. -- In the near future anyway.



Omar, you know my feelings about your personal convictions and endeavours. Good on ya!

RE: NARAIN # 24

Your Point#1
The legal text of the Blasphemy Law may answer your question about the clarity or ambiguity in the law. The law is enlisted under Pakistan Penal Code Section 295B, 295C, and 298 A,B,C that is posted below. Is it specific enough?

Your Point# 2
I fully agree.


BLASPHEMY LAW-THE TEXT
Offenses relating to religion: Pakistan Penal code


295-B
Defiling, etc, of copy of Holy Quran. Whoever will fully defiles, damages or desecrates a copy of the Holy Quran or of an extract therefrom or uses it in any derogatory manner or for any unlawful purpose shall be punishable for imprisonment for life.


295-C
Use of derogatory remarks, etc; in respect of the Holy Prophet. Whoever by words, either spoken or written or by visible representation, or by any imputation, innuendo, or insinuation, directly or indirectly, defiles the sacred name of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) shall be punished with death, or imprisonment for life, and shall also be liable to fine.


298-A
Use of derogatory remarks, etc..., in respect of holy personages. Whoever by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation, or by any imputation, innuendo or insinuation, directly or indirectly defiles a sacred name of any wife (Ummul Mumineen), or members of the family (Ahle-bait), of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), or any of the righteous caliphs (Khulafa-e-Rashideen) or companions (Sahaaba) of the Holy Prophet description for a term which may extend to three years, or with fine, or with both.


298-B
Misuse of epithet, descriptions and titles, etc. Reserved for certain holy personages or places.
Any person of the Qadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves Ahmadis or by any other name) who by words, either spoken or written or by visible representation:
refers to or addresses, any person, other than a Caliph or companion of the Holy Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), as ``Ameerul Momneen``, ``Khalifat-ul-Momneen``, ``Khalifat-ul-Muslimeen``, ``Sahaabi`` or ``Razi Allah Anho``;
Refers to or addresses, any person, other than a wife of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), as Ummul-Mumineen;
refers to, or addresses, any person, other than a member of the family (Ahle-Bait) of the Holy Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), as Ahle-Bait; or
refers to, or names, or calls, his place of worship as Masjid; shall be punished with imprisonment or either description for a term which may extend to three years, and shall also be liable to fine.


Any person of the Qadiani group or Lahore group, (who call themselves Ahmadis or by any other names), who by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations, refers to the mode or from of call to prayers followed by his faith as ``Azan`` or redites Azan as used by the Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years and shall also be liable to fine.



298-C
Persons of Qadiani group, etc, calling himself a Muslim or preaching or propagating his faith. Any person of the Qadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves Ahmadis or any other name), who directly or indirectly, posses himself as a Muslim, or calls, or refers to, his faith as Islam, or preaches or propagates his faith, or invites others to accept his faith, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation or in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years ans shall also be liable to fine.

To Fuzair,

I am currently debating whether to resign or not to. I think that my image of being a ``fassadi`` and a loose cannon can be used to the best advantage at the PSA... if I make a ``fassad`` at every so called ``Islamic`` action that the fundoo president takes. So I dont know yet. I ll keep you all posted.

To Feroze K ..

If you had read my articles, you could have easily deciphered that I believe in the ideal of Pakistan and see its faults all too well. I dont like its image being ruined though ... I think if these protests were to happen inside Pakistan ... not only would they be more effective. Nevertheless it was a good thing. The minorities in Pakistan and the liberals in Pakistan need to start a political movement calling for equality and the restoration of the true ideal of Pakistan. People like Omar Mirza are ideal for heading such a movement.

PM

Oneday Inshallah Ataturkization will happen and Pakistan will become Jinnah`s Pakistan.

Let me also make it clear... that as a Muslim who believes in the essence of Islam the only political system that can be acceptable to me is the SECULAR political system for Pakistan. Therefore in my mind there is no conflict between

Islam and secular Governance. But thats just me.

Pakistan Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Zindabad

Ataturk Zindabad

Jiye Bhutto

Imran Khan for PM

Yasser Hamdani

Fuzair #14: ``it does show that the Armed Forces are the last (badly, fatally?, flawed to be sure) bastion of liberalism in the country.``

I would agree with you here.

The first shock I received when I stepped out of the armed forces into the Pakistani civilian arena was the gigantic difference in ethnic and religious tolerance within the military environment and civilian environment (the second shock was the amount of corruption prevalent in the civilian sector as opposed to the military).

The Pakistan military has traditionally had a very cohesive and tolerant ethnic and religious environment. Considering the fact that religious minorities only constitute around 3% of the Pakistani population in Pakistan, they have done quite well in the military. This includes doing well at all ranks, and not just a few making it to the top. Even now, the restrictions that have affected the traditional tolerance are due more to the desires of politicians to portray, ``their`` military as an Islamic one, rather than any internal intolerance of religious minorities amongst the ranks.

The correct assessment of tolerance is not the rank a minority officer achieves, but the position he occupies in combat. I believe one of the Chief-of-Staffs of the PAF was an Ahmedi. Quite a few Christian officers have held command combat positions, as well. Ethnic minorities have also done extremely well. And there isn`t much ethnic discrimination in the military, as a whole.

I have had Parsi and Christian instructors and colleagues. The only deciding factor amongst us was our rank and nothing else. In fact at every single base, I was stationed at, religious preaching of any kind, outside the mosque, was officially disallowed (I don`t know whether this rule is still in effect). The logic being that it would divide the units into religious groupings. Of course, this did not stop the more religiously motivated to not follow this rule. However, even their preaching/call to prayers, etc. were inclusive and not exclusive of different sects and minorities.

I think, the posts of Chief-of-Staffs will be limited to Shias and Sunnis in Pakistan in the future. This is again more due to the wishes of the politicians and the civilians they are representing. However, below that rank, I think all members of the armed forces generally are promoted on merit, and not on their ethnic and religious status. This can be seen from the fact that almost all of the officers who make it to the top ranks in the Pakistan military graduated at or close to the top of their classes as cadets at their respective academies. And the top position as a cadet is open to any religious group.

So while the general intolerance for minorities is growing in Pakistan, it is growing at much much slower rate in the armed forces.

Regarding Musharraf: I did some checking up on him from officers who know him/worked with him. Apparently, he falls on the opposite spectrum of Zia-ul-Haq as far as religious tolerance is concerned, both personally and professionally. He is a liberal. And guess what: he drinks (for some reason drinking has become some sort of a standard for secularism and liberalism in Pakistan). However, he has had to keep the liberal side of himself in check, since he is in a political position now. My own guess is that he would love to get rid of all the laws Zia-ul-Haq put in (I don`t think he is a big fan of Zia). However, due to reasons articulated in this article, he doesn`t want to open up a new front with the hardliner religious groups, until the economy is under control. I think this is the best strategy (as long as he doesn`t completely sideline the issues of the religious minorities, in the long run). His order of priorities is maybe as follows: economy/ehtasab, political restructuring, solving Kashmir, ending feudal domination, handling domestic influence of religious groups. Needless to say, he has a lot on his plate, and needs to step through the issues one at a time.

PM

if you read Jinnah`s history carefuly ... he was always a proponent of Joint electorates ... he said this clearly in all his speeches especially the famous Nagpur speech where he said dont intermix religion with politics and got booed by people like Maulana Shaukat Ali for saying Mr Gandhi instead of Mahatma.

He did ask for a greater than percentage representation in his 14 points in seperate electorates ... and seperate electorates were accepted in principle because there was no compromise possible. However seperate electorates are a non issue ... as long as Christians and othe r minorities get the chance to vote and run in general elections too ... then the 5% representation will only be a safeguard that they are atleast represented. I believe that Omar Mirza and the minorities are asking for exactly that .. the right to vote and run in normal elections also.

In principle that should be allowed.

Pakistan Zindabad

PM

if you read Jinnah`s history carefuly ... he was always a proponent of Joint electorates ... he said this clearly in all his speeches especially the famous Nagpur speech where he said dont intermix religion with politics and got booed by people like Maulana Shaukat Ali for saying Mr Gandhi instead of Mahatma.

He did ask for a greater than percentage representation in his 14 points in seperate electorates ... and seperate electorates were accepted in principle because there was no compromise possible. However seperate electorates are a non issue ... as long as Christians and othe r minorities get the chance to vote and run in general elections too ... then the 5% representation will only be a safeguard that they are atleast represented. I believe that Omar Mirza and the minorities are asking for exactly that .. the right to vote and run in normal elections also.

In principle that should be allowed.

Pakistan Zindabad

PM

And by the way we do have public broadcasts on TV explaining the significance of the white part of the flag...All those who were in Pakistan this 14th of August will know what I am talking about...

In Defence of Musharraff...

I sincerely believe and as does my close friend and honorary Pakistani Tony Aschettino (he accompanied me to Pakistan this summer) that conditions in Pakistan are definitely on the upsurge... fundamentalism is being countered...

I remember the Bishop of Pakistan spoke on TV this

14th of August and he had really good things to say about Pakistan ... we are slowly but surely undoing what Zia had done. As far as the seperate electorates go ... I think that the christians and other minorities should have the right to contest and vote in general elections but also have seperate representation also just like the Women to ensure that they are in the assembley.

And believe me noone wants to start an India Pakistan match here but if any Indians are going to make any comments against Pakistan ... dont even try to ... first look what you have done to the Sikhs, christians, Muslims etc ... (lets see there was the Golden temple, and the Babri Masjid.. and then there were the churches in South India) ... So Please lay off... this is for Pakistanis only so that they contribute positively to the Pakistani community...

PM

And by the way we do have public broadcasts on TV explaining the significance of the white part of the flag...All those who were in Pakistan this 14th of August will know what I am talking about...

In Defence of Musharraff...

I sincerely believe and as does my close friend and honorary Pakistani Tony Aschettino (he accompanied me to Pakistan this summer) that conditions in Pakistan are definitely on the upsurge... fundamentalism is being countered...

I remember the Bishop of Pakistan spoke on TV this

14th of August and he had really good things to say about Pakistan ... we are slowly but surely undoing what Zia had done. As far as the seperate electorates go ... I think that the christians and other minorities should have the right to contest and vote in general elections but also have seperate representation also just like the Women to ensure that they are in the assembley.

And believe me noone wants to start an India Pakistan match here but if any Indians are going to make any comments against Pakistan ... dont even try to ... first look what you have done to the Sikhs, christians, Muslims etc ... (lets see there was the Golden temple, and the Babri Masjid.. and then there were the churches in South India) ... So Please lay off... this is for Pakistanis only so that they contribute positively to the Pakistani community...

Umairr and Fuzair (in earlier posts) rightly point out that minorities are in general not discriminated against in the military (Indian or Pakistani). This seem to be a universal characteristic: a little commented-on fact is that the civil rights movement in the US was in fact started around the late 1940`s in the US military as a result of a deliberate decision by President Truman to integrate the armed forces. It worked quite successfully it seems although it appears acceptance took time (my father visited the US in 1956 on a military training course, and recalls a single black officer in their group who would pretty much keep to himself. This struck him as very odd given that aside from this the US officers were a friendly lot who showed great hospitality to overseas trainees). Ultimate success in integrating the military paved the way for the Civil Rights movement of the 1960`s.

Why are militaries such good melting pots? Possibly it is the ``langar`` food that is served in military camps around the world, or perhaps a sense of companionship in misery, who knows...

Good article Omar, nicely written, good sentiments expressed...BUT...who gives a damn?

NY City is a big place, with many protests occuring every day. Yes, they get 2 minutes worth attention on the local news. BUT is that significant to solve the problems, especially if the problems aren`t even in the US?

Superficial protests and parades won`t get you anywhere Omar. We, as Pakistanis who care about our country, need to get to the heart of the matter. We need to start from the bottom up.

Educate yourself, help educate Pakistanis in Pakistan. Only when you get the average Pakistani`s mind out of the grips of the fundamentalists through education and free thinking, will you get anywhere with regards to the rights of minorities.

Parading around Manhattan will only make you feel good about yourself, it won`t stop any Blasphemy Law or other social injustices occuring in Pakistan.

You can be as passionate in your protests and writings as you want, but unless you take your law degree (whenever you get done with it), gather some other bright young educated Pakistanis together, and go make some changes to Pakistan IN Pakistan, things will remain the same.

In conclusion, I commend you for at least thinking about other religious groups in your country. It`s a start, however small, and I`m not being patronizing.

scout

Getting rid of the blasphemy law will be, in my opinion, impossible. I come to this conclusion after many a year spent trying to work out how section 295 of the Pakistan Penal Code can be repealed.

Section 295 is made of three parts. The first sub-section, of English origion, makes it an offence for any member of any religious community to commit a blasphemy towards any other religious community.

Sections B and C, introduced by the late General Zia (bless his cotton socks), make it illegal (and punishable by life sentence and death respectively) to blaspheme against the Prophet Mohammad or the Holy Quran, whether by act, word or implication (whatever that means).

As a result numerous non-muslims, and even some muslims, have languished in jail, or have faced the wrath of lynch mobs. To my knowledge, all the cases, though resulting in convictions in the sessions courts, have been dismissed by the High Courts. It is obvious the law is misused. Usually, it is a property dispute, with one party accusing the other of blasphemy, which results in imprisonment (as the offence is punishable by life imprisonment or death, the offence is non-bailable). In some cases, a misinformed mob (as was the case with the unfortunate Hafiz-e-Quran in Gujranwala a few years ago) takes the law in it`s own hand at the incitement of a few (in that case, it was the jealousy of a next door neighbour).

The solution: Pakistan is too religiously charged at this stage in time for anyone to attempt to remove section 295 from the statute books. In any case, we need a law to protect our non-muslims from the excesses of their muslim citizen brothers. One solution is to change the procedure of arrest as laid out in the Criminal Procedure Code, whereby the accused would not be arrested at implication, but only after a local magistrate (or deputy commissioner) has carried out a preliminary investigation and has grounds to believe the accusation is true. But even this solution is capable of being misused - after all, if you manipulate the police, what can stop you from manipulating the local administration. This solution is, in the absence of any other, the best one going.

There are people in Pakistan who often resort to citing cases of Blasphemy in England, as if the legal system there has been transported from heaven. They resort to the convictions in the Gay News case of some decades back. But they fail to understand the subtle change the English Law Lords were attempting to undertake. Gay News was accused of publishing a homosexual account of Christ, and was duly taken to court by Christian Bible thumpers. The first instance judge found the publishers guilty (in his judgment, he wrote of the Lord`s invisible hand guiding him). The case wound it`s way up to the House of Lords, where in a two-two split, it was up to Lord Scarman to cast the deciding judgment. Scarman ALSO found the publishers guily, but for good reason: The issue was whether the ecclesiastical offence of blasphemy was a strict liabilty offence or not, in other words, was guilty intent required for the offence. Can one`s innocent words, if blasphemously construed, result in a conviction? Or do the words have to have meaning in the mind of it`s speaker? Scarman judged that intent was not neccasary: that the words themself were enough to result in blasphemy. Scarman`s reasoning, however, was profound: By making the ofence of blasphemy not rest on intent, he tried to widen it`s scope to include other religions. He was trying to make the hitherto ecclesiastic (and Christian) offence of blasphemy equally applicaple to other religious communities in England.

So, to those who quote the English cases: Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Omar, as I said, well done. I wish I was there with you. I would have thrown eggs on the erstwhile Javed Jabbar (your question stand answered) and any other symbol of authority that dared condescend to the crowd.

Take care, well written, and well done.

Rafay

By the way, looks as though Pakistan isn`t the only country engaging in religious discrimination.

I happened to come across an interesting demonstration on C-SPAN, live from Washington DC.

It was the Indian American Christian Coalition of North America, protesting against the Indian government and the closing down of Christian institutions and the killings of hundreds of Christians in India. The suffering that these people have faced is horrible.

While in Pakistan, religious discrimination is a clear picture, India is doing the same evil deeds under the ``purdah`` of secularity.

Both countries need a tremendous amount of civil rights reforms.

Re: KRashid post #1

I grew up in, and lived in Pakistan. I have spent the first half of my life there, and visted frequently since then. In addition, that i am very intimately familiar with Pakistan should be obvious from this article, and the links to previous previously published articles i have authored on Chowk. In addition i have also been writing in to Dawn & TFT since late last year, till Mushy compromised with the Mullahs on his program, and i decided not to waste my valuable time any longer to do so.

As for my being a lawyer, why should that surprise you? Jinnah was a British trained lawyer ... and he & I certainly have a lot more in common in terms of the way we think and analyse issues, than any graduate of a Pakistani Maktab today will ever have in common with him.

Just to be clear, the man ate and drank as he pleased. He would never stand with either Zia or the Mullah bigots. And he was a Bori. Do you really think he would support the establishment of a theocracy in which religious minorities are treated the way there are today in Pakistan? If so, you need to learn more about him, and his political thoughts.

Also, just in case anyone starts to wonder, i am a Sunni Muslim., i.e certainly part of the religious majority in Pakistan. I was there to protest on principle, not just for Christians, but ALL religious minorities similarly situated in Pakistan.

You need to learn to read more carefully. As for the last sentence in the article, frankly, if, I, with an Undergrad degree from NYU (with a double major in Political Science & History) make any remotely historical statement/judgement, you should believe its thought out very carefully. I well know the meaning of my words and phrases. And i don`t suffer from having taken the `NAPAK STUDIES` course in, `historical blindness, lies, omissions and distortions.`

In general i would prefer to stay out of this debate/posts as much as possible, having authored the article itself. Its my experience/conclusion that a jury of just 12 people deliberating behind a closed door never misses much, and there are a lot more people here to discuss the issues and give their opinions, and i welcome that (though not the double posts). And the purpose of my writing was to stimulate an honest discussion about a variety of issues among Chowkwalas, not to have me continue to write. So I`ll take a back seat at least for a while, although if issues are raised, and not addressed, i`ll provide a reply, since i can easily provide the answers, though i`d much rather other folks come up with `the answers` after thinking about the questions involved, then me jumping in.



Here is an interesting link someone e-mailed me:

http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/ReportersAlley/rpoa/index.html

Btw, I will be visible with my placard (Which KRashid should have read more carefully as well) at major Pakistani-American events in the N.Y area from now on, including 14th August. I welcome your support, but I`ll be there even without it, as long as i can make time.

Knotyourcupoftea@aol.com

OMAR MIRZA

dear omar,

well written and hard hitting. why don`t you send it to tft as well?
as for whether your protesting in new york will help change things in pakistan...of course it will. maybe not in this lifetime, but i think we`re all prepared for that. so keep shouting, yelling and waving placards (as well as studying for your degree) and who knows..maybe one day you`ll be in a position to actually bring about change in the system.

the blasphemy law...
there was to be no change in the blasphemy law but a procedural amendment to the process in which a case is registered and reviewed. the governement has been very very clear about that.

minorities in the armed forces...
my mamu was part of the original team that mapped out the siachen area, had a command position in the `65 war and the `71 war. his many stories of being in combat and being in the armed forces are free from any kind of resentement or complaint. apparently, the people he worked with were united by an emotion greater than their religous differences, love for pakistan.

things might be a little different now.

someone asked whether anyone has been convicted recently. yusuf ali (formerly and army man) was sentenced to death by a lahore court last month for claiming to be the prophet Mohammed. according to his accusers of course.

In response to Urstruly (Reply # 16)
Dear Urstruly:

Thanks for the address: http://hem.passagen.se/dpaul/index.htm

I am ashamed that the Pakistani state and society could be so cruel to our miniscule religious minority. What responsiblity should the state of Pakistan bear for producing and sustaining one or more generations of senseless Pakistanis who lack basic human values.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

THIS IS WHERE TO START IF YOU WANT TO HELP CHANGE PAKISTAN:

http://www.care.org.pk

I met the lady who runs it this past summer in N.Y, at a fundraiser. She is very passionate about giving poor children a chance in life. A lawyer by training (not practice) naturally ... she topped the Punjab Bar results.

CARE is a non-profit NGO. At the moment they are awaiting the legal status in the U.S, that will make your contributions tax deductible. They are audited by reputable accounting firms in Pakistan.

Frankly, I don`t know a better cause to send Zakat money to. CARE NEEDS YOUR HELP TODAY. Even small amounts make a big difference in poor children`s lives. Please give whatever you can, as often as you can.

Omar Mirza and others!

Does it make any difference if I say Islam is my RELIGION or Christianity is my RELIGION or Liberalism is my RELIGION.

If I am blinded to the facts, whether in the name of liberalism or Islam or Christianity, for me they are same. For one praying is the highest goal, for other drinking is the highest achievement.

Having said that. You did not read my post.

Your title was ``Stop killing of Christians``. You have not given a single incident for that. So I referred that if you are a lawyer present your case properly (and not demonstration by Mullah as proof of killing).

I don`t justify blasphemy law and I stated that clearly that it is tool in the hands of police to harrass. But Blasphemy law in some form is important not because of poor christians in Pakistan, but Dadas of world, who have too much pain for plight of East Timor and Christian killings in India, but are dead on Kashmiri Muslims. Iraqi children are cattle to be left to die until their conscious wakes up by shortage of Oil supply. These Dadas of world will spare nothing to humiliate Muslims and their culture, and with money power they can do everything.

I have very good relations with Muslims and non Muslims throughout my career. For one I respect them and in turn get respect. (If some body wants to disrespect, should not expect respect in return, until off course with Danda)

Christians are advancing in Pakistan. Who are Christians, the same Shudar who were destined to do dirty job and christianity saved them a little humiliation, but our culture has been reluctant to give them equal status (may be for who will clean then). Christians are advancing and should advance. They have started to come in education, business etc. Our society does not have to throw Islamic Culture to give Christians equality, it has to shed the vestiges of caste system deeply ingrained in the psyche of our people.

There is no inferiority related to job, in Iran as much as I have seen.

In short we have to find ways:

1- To repeal the blasphemy law in its present form.

2- Enact some form of Blasphemy law for the protection of Muslim beliefs. (Apart from reason given above by me regarding Dadas of world, I don`t think prophet PBUH ever punished anyone for maligning him and therefore the justification.)

3- Fight the people who for personal gains use Islam (or Liberalism or christianity).

To YLH!

You have just stepped in the politics, and become dishearted. I think we need more people like you. Conscientious and fight for what they believe in. You will learn with time and mature + your thinking will change and adapt with time. Don`t get disheartened by fundoos. Thought interaction is a two way thing. If you are influenced by someone, they are influenced also. In the end only truth remains.

There is an Ayah in Koran regarding truth and falsehood and I like it very much.(The meaning is something like this) Smelting of iron produces a lot of scum which is blown away by air (that is falsehood) and what remains is pure iron (i.e truth). So what remains ultimately is truth and rest is blown away.

slink #39, ``so keep shouting, yelling and waving

placards (as well as studying for your degree) and who knows..maybe one day you`ll be in a position to actually bring about change in the system.``

African Americans shouting for their civil rights in US during the 60`s brought about changes, BUT

this protest won`t bring changes to Pakistan. This country of ``peace and justice and equality`` doesn`t really give a damn about PAkistan or it`s people.

Shouting, yelling, and waving placards: Is that all we can do? And if it is, it is worth the while?

The only thing it will do, is spread awareness to some segments of the Pakistani-American families,

and most of these are impotent members of the state of Pakistan or they`re too busy accumulating wealth to care or stop and think.

Umaair #29

You say that a PAf chief was an Ahmedi. This itself is a sign of intolerance. You have choosen to potray a muslim as a non muslim? maybe after 5 years we will hear that Pakistan treats its minorities well because 3 army chiefs were Shias?? because the mullahs would have declared the Shias as non muslims?

ylh

Your reference to Sikhs ( Golden temple) and Muslims ( Babri masjid) as black spots on Indian secularism.

Can I assume that you agree that prior to these events India was a truly secular state?

Sikhs - the most prosperous community in India!! max representation in armed forces, civil services!!!

How about the terrorists ( not sikhs, armed by the napakis) who had stocked weapons, ammo and shat in the harmandir saheb?? How about the raid by Saudi army assisted by Pak army on a mosque in S. Arabia to flush out armed militia??

muslims - not the most prosperous certainly ,but enjoy full religious freedom, rights, have held all important positions in civil, military , private sectors. Richest man in India being a muslim!!!!

christian church bombings - cases investigated and evidence points to Deendar -e - anjuman , a shadowy sect with the chief hiding in Karachi , pakistan!!!!

India does not lessons from rabid, intolerant, undemocratic self procalimed Islamists!

re OMAR1974 #38:

Instead of giving reasons for making that ludicrous statement about Jinnah at the end of the article, you`ve instead chosen to highlight your undergraduate crendentials. Wisdom my dear does not come with going to school(albeit fancy ones) alone. Read Rafay Alam`s reply to see the difference.

Of late Chowk seems to have become a safe haven for empty sloganeers and shrill conspiracy mongers.It leaves little room for constructive debate or the sometimes gentle or vicious banter. Esperanto anyone?

later

-sac

One from the archives:

BLASPHEMY

Word came in once again to hang
One`s head in shame as a member of
The human family that still stands firmly
Divided by faith, which is okay but not
To accuse, each other of disrespect with
Sentences of death looming
Based on possibly twisted facts or self interest
Backed by laws that need review
On the basis of the religion itself which once
Liberated us from such injustice and ignorance



Christians and us drink from the same well
Of enlightenment as do the Jews
With Hindus we have had much interaction while
Sharing the land of the Indus since our history began
The Bible and the Gita have lived amongst us
Along with the Ahmadi and the Zikri people
Color added from our own cultural paintbrush
But the canvas was and is in the hands of the Creator
Who has taught us much about respect and
The meaning of justice



One helpless Bishop with a gun in his hand
Conduct usually unbecoming for a man of the cloth
Has pulled the trigger and extinguished god`s gift of life
A last act of a desperate crusader for justice or
The parting cry of a human being to be seriously heard
Drawing attention to blasphemy laws as a tool of persecution
Against all believers who don`t walk the same path and become
Verbal targets of accusers and sometimes much more
In the land which today absorbs his blood
And that of many other innocent spirits
Who have chosen to be different.




- Ras H. Siddiqui (5-8-98)

This writing is dedicated to two people. Bishop John Joseph of ``Khushpur`` who killed himself in protest against the current Blasphemy Law in Pakistan and Arif Iqbal Bhatti, a respected lawyer and judge, who was assassinated because he pardoned a Christian boy innocent of the ``Crime``. It is also hoped that the Government of Pakistan will launch a full investigation to rule out any foul play in the matter of Bishop Joseph.

Omar: I support what you are trying to do. I am also of the opinion that the military guys in power would support what you are doing as well. However, in trying to get rid of the blasphemy law, you need to have a carefully planned strategy keeping in mind the following factors: the military already has a heavy internal agenda (devolution, IT, privatization, bringing back the nations looted wealth), a hostile external environment (Indian government - foolishly, IMHO - leading the charge, with the Bangladesh PM chiming in, and cold shouldering by the West) as well as dangerous internal forces of fundamentalism trying to gain power through force and subterfuge that they have never been able to gain through the free will of the Pakistani people. It is only common sense that one does not open up too many fronts, else you lose everything and Pakistan may well slide into the hands of fundamentalists.

While I have no doubt that the military people would be sympathetic to getting rid of the blasphemy law (and I say this based on some personal observations only), you need to get your message across in a thoughtful and constructive way. I dont have any answers for you on what that constructive way would be, but am sure you can come up with something if you think about it.

Re: Slink #39

Do I assume from what you wrote about your Mamu that you meant to imply that he was a member of a minority community? I`m just curious: which one? (Not that its really any of my business, just nosy.)

Re: Umairr`s reference to an Ahmedi as the Chief of Air Staff

I think that the point was not to discriminate against Ahmedis by calling them non-Muslims but to show that even groups officially despised by the State have a home in the Armed Forces. Don`t forget that Sir Zafarullah Khan was an Ahmedi, as was Gen. Akhtar Hussain Malik of 1965 fame. But, of course, this was before we declared them to be non-Muslims!

The Armed Forces used to believe in Legio Patria Mori (the legion is my fatherland) and to an extent they still do. Under Pervez Musharraf, it may revert back to the active enforcement of this ideal.

Manoj

It is not India and Pakistan being discussed here but another issue ... as far as India is concerned... in my opinion the whole Indian political History is a black spot on the name of secularism... India is a Hindu state and it shall remain a hindu state no matter what the constitution states...

However this is not the time and place to change my opinion so please refrain from posting on this thread against me ...

All I wanted to say was this is a purely Pakistani discourse and Indians should not feel free to give us their two cents...

Physician Heal thyself...

manoj: #44: ``You say that a PAf chief was an Ahmedi. This itself is a sign of intolerance. You have choosen to potray a muslim as a non muslim?``

Please do not incorrectly extrapolate my statements. In fact, please do not attemtpt to extrapolate them at all. Just stick to what I have stated. This is what I stated in reply 29 (about which you have made an incorrect assumption)

``The correct assessment of tolerance is not the rank a minority officer achieves, but the position he occupies in combat. I believe one of the Chief-of-Staffs of the PAF was an Ahmedi.``

If you read the above correctly, you will notice that I reference Ahmedis as being a minority. Not a religious minority, but a minority, in general (hence the word minority officer, and not religious minority officer).

As far as I am concerned, anyone who says he/she is a Muslim, is a Muslim. After that, it is between them are their God. I don`t particularly care.

You stated, ``maybe after 5 years we will hear that Pakistan treats its minorities well because 3 army chiefs were Shias?? because the mullahs would have declared the Shias as non muslims?``

I am not quite sure what we will hear about the Pakistani minorities in 5 years. However, the purpose of my reply was not to state that Pakistan treats its minorities well. It is just to state that in my experience, minorities are treated relatively well in the Pakistani armed forces. That is why, I said,

``So while the general intolerance for minorities is growing in Pakistan, it is growing at much much slower rate in the armed forces.``

Kindly do not misquote or misrepresent my replies. It wastes everyone`s time.

Tsk tsk tsk. Umairr, first protect your own citizens before worrying about India`s in Kashmir. How shameful and embarassing what you guys are doing to Christians.

Krashid:

The TITLE of the piece is ``PROTEST IN N.Y!``, the discription of one of the eye catching issues which the protest was about, is what you are refering to, its NOT part of the title for G-Ds sake!

The 1000 mullahs mentioned in the piece are not an example cited of people killing Christians, just the street power of a political pressure group opposed to equal rights for minorities and their disproportionate political impact in circumstances in which the military regime felt itself under siege from every side. You are confused i suppose by the marketing of the article (Yeah, i figured i needed to make it eyecatching to get people to at least read it). I don`t feel i need to prove the killing of Christians in Pakistan, there are enough incidents recorded, and that was not my specific issue (READ MY PLACARD). If you read the piece carefully, you`ll realize there are a combination of three different things going on in the writing:

#1 Its a first person narrative account from my perspective, including my own involvement,

#2 I am reporting on what happened exactly at the Protest, and ``STOP KILLING CHRISTIANS`` was a slogan raised by the protesters.

#3 My Political Analysis & Editorial style writing.

Sac:

You focused too much on my mention of my alma mater. You should also have read the salient facts in that same post that i presented to support my `ludicrous` statement as you put it; Jinnah was a BORI, i.e a member of a religious minority himself. Also, he was a liberal, and a lawyer. The conclusion should be self-evident. Only someone who deliberates chooses to be wilfully blind to MAJs ideas/life/legacy could state that what i said was `ludicrous`. YES, JINNAH WOULD PROTEST TODAY`S PAKISTAN AS A BETRAYAL IF HE WAS ALIVE. That statement betrays your ideological bias, if anything. The truth is very hard to digest for people who have spent their lives tuned in to PTV thinking that the Vison of Jinnah is anything reemotely connected to what Pakistan has become today. I can only hazzard a guess that perhaps that experience as a PTV viewer left a deep impression on you that you have yet to overcome.

PTV has a very sanitized, black & White view of Pakistan`s history and politics. I guess they feel that in the name of patriotism, they have a right to selectively distort history as well. And if they repeat a lie often enough, people do become brain washed in their perspectives if exposed to little else, day in and day out. But things have changed since the 80s and ZIA KA DAUR, the state no long has a monopoly on information, the press is much much more free, internet use is up, SAT Dishes have increased. Unfortunately, the massses remain illiterate & ignorant, and a free press can`t change that. An image is often worth a thousand words. PTV is nothing more than a government propaganda machine.

OMAR MIRZA

RE: OMAR 1974 Reply# 52

I am really disappointed and disgusted with you after reading your reply. So it was nothing but sensationalism. What do you expect to achieve when you create resentment instead of awareness in the other party. Please spare us from your pathetic attempts to explain your motives why you sensationalized issues. As compared to you a lot of people firmly believe that the issues can be resolved-but this is not the way.

What a wonderful read this was.

http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10603-2000Sep15.html

Bill Gates chilling in Delhi and Vajpayee getting standing ovations from the US Congress while our friends in the Jewish-controlled American media contrast this to the reception accorded Musharraf and the souring ties due to Pakistan`s links with ``Islamic terror groups and the Taliban``

RSexana #51: ``Tsk tsk tsk. Umairr, first protect your own citizens before worrying about India`s in Kashmir. How shameful and embarassing what you guys are doing to Christians.``

Unfortunately, I am not in a position to protect anyone. I wish I were, but I am not. What I can do is to point out the places human rights are being violated; be it Pakistan or India or any other place. I myself oppose all human rights violations anywhere in the world, and have criticised all the human rights violations that have and are being committed by Pakistan. Unlike some people, I do not make any attempts to justify the human rights violations committed by my country of origin. In fact quite the opposite, I attempt to highlight them.

You seem quite concerned about the Christians in Pakistan. I am concerned as well. If you are interested in pursuing this furthur, then I can point you to some people in Amnesty International who would be more than happy to get in touch with you in your efforts to improve the situation of Christians in Pakistan. I would you like to encourage you to get involved in pointing out the human rights violations of minorities in Pakistan, provided you have a sincere interest.

If you are just pointing out the situation of minorities in Pakistan to justify the killings of innocent human beings in India, then I am afraid you have a quite a bit of hatred inside you against any human being who does not share your views of the world. There isn`t much I can do to change that. You are the best judge of your own conscience.

Re: #53

Sigh. The trouble with me is that i`m too damn honest. ``sensationalism`` my ass. Its to make sure people read whats inside the click, which is absolutely true, and nothing contained inside is factually untrue, and the slogan was most certainly used and it is a real issue for the Christian community and even for other minorities such as Ahmadis (YES, I WOULD ALSO SUPPORT ``STOP KILLING AHMADIS``, ``IN PAKISTAN IN PAKISTAN``, who are being killed in the name of religion also on a periodic basis, so this is completely factually true. Frankly I don`t think i misrepresented anything. So don`t be childish and throw a fit. And some people are motivated by other reasons, and would love to find a way to attack the issues contained in the article indirectly by attacking me, because they are closet jamaatis for whom i literally don`t make any effort to hide my utter contempt.

Jinnah liked his whiskey `n his Pork. Deal with it. He still led the Pakistan movement, while most Islami mullahs opposed the division of India and sided with the Congress party. Then these same mullahs and their progeny tell the people of Pakistan, that ``Pakistan was created in the name of Islam``, so shariat needs to be enforced., and minorities should remain in separate electorates and be denied equal rights of citizenship.

The mullah line today is a vast oversimplification of the issues involved. The bottom line was that Pakistan was created to insure that the Muslim community was not economically discriminated against by the Hindu majority in a United India, and that it was free to practice its religion without let or hinderance. Neither of those 2 goals has anything to do with Shariat.

But how do you get that message across to people who are illiterate, uneducated and brainwashed? Its quite beyond their level of understanding, and ideological frame of reference to comprehend the distinction. And i don`t mean this in a condesending manner, its just a plain fact. So Education is the priority.

OMAR MIRZA

Re: Urstruly #53

If a tree falls in a forest when no one is around ... does it make a sound?

ylh:

Thanks for correcting me on Jinnah`s stance on the electorates issue.

My suggestion that the significance of the white part of the flag be explained was figurative -- the point being the need to drub the equal status of Minorities into public consciousness.

Attaturkization of Pakistan? hmmm.. let`s wait and see... Just remember, Pakistan is not Turkey, so that needn`t be a panacea.

rgds,

PM

rsaxena #51, ``How shameful and embarassing what

you guys are doing to Christians.``

Aww, how righteous of you to point that out. In case you missed it, go back and read my post #37.

Shame doesn`t just lie west of the border. Or do you turn a blind eye towards your own shortcomings to sneer in our direction.

Omar Mirza!

I think Jinnah was Khoja Memon and Shia. I think Bohri are different.

I completely agree with Manoj that Indians don`t need lessons from intolerant, rabid Muslims.

I think they are themselves in a position to supervise PhD thesis on that.

If educated Indians are SO MUCH TOLERANT, one can understand the Indian SECULARISM.

As far as highly respected Sikhs. It does not deny their killing 20,000 in number. (BBC. quote in case somebody starts farting)

Well Manhoj if being well off was the criterion for being free of exploitation... may I add that the Ahmadi community is perhaps a very well off community ... but that doesnt mean that they are not discriminated against....

VijayAmrit

Go read my comment on the Jinnah thread.... maybe you will know the truth...

Re: Vijay Amrit

I would suggest that you familarize yourself with Jinnah`s life and his political thinking, before generalizing Jinnah with a contempory Indian politican.

Jinnah`s seculurism, if that is an applicable term, originated in his British influenced upbringing and education; Jinnah`s political philosophy was based on constitutionalism. Jinnah was a British trained lawyer and he argued for Pakistan, in toto for the Muslims of India, on the basis of a consititutional right to political representation. Where Jinnah erred was in underestimating the raw emotional appeal of religion as a political consideration of the Muslims of India. Jinnah was, in his political attitudes, aloof from the religious sub-text of pre-partition Indian politics and since he was, for all practical purposes, a British gentleman, he never really understood the religious political under currents of the Muslim politics in India and that was his mistake; a mistake, which we are still debating in Pakistan vis-a-vis issues of Pakistan`s identity.

I am, on the other hand, in no position to make a generalized statement on Advani`s political logic and answer, or refute, your suggestion arguing a similarity in Jinnah and Advani`s political views. If I have an indication, it mostly points to the argument that Advani, and for that matter your Prime Minister Vajpayee (sp?) have blurred the distinctions in Indian politics between apolitical secularism and allowable political sectarianism.

When your prime minister, in a gathering in America, makes a statement that he is a member of RSS first and an Indian prime minister second, what does it say about his interpretation of India`s consitutional separation of the affairs of the state with local specified party political interests?

As fate would have it, Jinnah death before his vision of Pakistan could be fully articulated, but if his past political experince, historically doucmented, would suggest that Jinnah was acutely aware that Pakistan would have problems in overcoming the abstraction of secularism in its politics. Political speeches have an intent; a message that they convey and if that hypothesis is valid, then the question is not what Jinnah intended Pakistan to be, given his September 11 speech to the Constituent Assemby, but why did he use that much quoted (and infamous phrase)reference to a non-religious nature of a Pakistani polity? Was he aware of something and wanted to warn his listeners to that fact?

Jinnah`s Pakistan would have been a consitutional state with clearly demarcated boundries between politics and religion and in this intent, he differs from Advani in that sense that BJP has blurred that division of politics and religion in Indian politics.

Also, I would also humbly suggest to you that please do not generalize personalites living in differen historical periods. The verdict on Jinnah has been pronounced and the verdict on Advani is still being debated and it would premature of you to infer something that is still not decided!

History may agree with and then, angain, it may not!

Ciao!

Omar you write: ``But how do you get that message across to people who are illiterate, uneducated and brainwashed? Its quite beyond their level of understanding, and ideological frame of reference to comprehend the distinction. And i don`t mean this in a condesending manner, its just a plain fact. So Education is the priority.``

I am very tired of this arrogant view of the Pakistani elite of those less well off. What have you ``educated`` people done? stolen wealth shamelessly; destroyed democratic institutions; replaced use of your minds with rote thinking. I could go on.

The poor person in Pakistan is second to none in common sense and intelligence and strong moral character. Unlike poor people in some other countries, they dont drink (and thus dont do thinks like wife-beating due to drunkenssness as happens in some other places) and they have a deep faith in God. I have heard more than one foreign visitor comment on the inherent dignity of the poor in Pakistan.

I would have expected something more sensible from someone trying to abolish the blasphemy law than what you just wrote.

Urstruly,

what`s the result of your survey?
you know the questions you asked about blasphemy laws...

should we make amendments to blasphemy laws or should we ditch them...as if i have any say :)

it is so boring on chowk these days..

I usually stay out of Pakistan`s business on chowk...there are many Indians who can do that for me (unwisely in my opinion and this goes for their Pakistani counterparts to