Joint Indo-Pak School History Textbook on the Web

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never too late ...

tahmed & cheryam - congratulations on the most civilised, decent, rational miaow-fight ever.

very humbling but have to admit it almost made me puke : )

I believe the authors decided to take a nap after lunch (in an earlier post here I had asked them whether they had gone to lunch after writing their piece, and got no response).

I guess we can give up on this article and move our discussion elsewhere. Good exchanging posts with you on this article, and look forward to seeing your posts elsewhere on Chowk.

Tahmed, you are welcome. I agree what you say. I have mentioned it earlier that during Kargil war (then I did not know of Chowk, I used to visit a site for Indian soldiers,there I saw some vicious attack on Indian soldiers from some Pakistanis. And I was loosing faith on my generally tolerant view on humanity, when an article by Ikbal Khan at Rediff (with hyperlink to Chowk, I believe) brought my belief back. I realise again that there are good and bad people in every society, country, religion. There are people who will give away everything for peace, and my trust on my Pakistani friends restored again. That article meant a lot to me, and it was all because of internet.

Authors, I am curious. Is there any positive build up in your project? We have to work fast, see how middle-east is burning again because of this mistrust. We really do not have much time to waste.

Regards

cheraym.

cheraym #135

Thanks for your kind response. My post may have read a bit harsh, and I appreciate that rather than taking offense you chose to provide an explanation.

While the internet does make posts seem a bit cold, I think there is also the great beauty of the internet insofar as it provides strangers to discuss things that one would normally not discuss with anyone other than a close friend in real life. In fact, even with most friends in real life, one often gets involved in small talk, entertainment, and so on rather than on significant issues that we should also be concerned about. As such, one can actually build a better understanding on such issues with people one will never meet in real life, than with friends and relations.

So, I am really glad we have people like you on chowk who contribute to the postive aspects of internet discussions and in reading posts are able to allow for the fact that internet messages sound harsher than intended.

Best Regards to you too.

Dear Tahmed:

I guess you did not like my line of writing to Pankaj. You are correct that all the university rankings are readily available, but you have to still do that exercise. It does not really matter where I come from, what is my background to majority of the people in Chowk, except my views in different issues (again, this is my opinion). Of course, your views shape up to some extent on the basis of who you are. Since as a fellow IITan from the same department, Pankaj was curious, I thought I will give him some information. Email and internet can be very impersonal, as you may write something with some intention and it reflects something else!

Hope I did not sound too proud since I know my limitations and consider myself a lifelong student. That is why people like Sameer, Bahmad inspire me. I like your touch of humanity also. By the way, we are digressing from the issue in hand.

Regards

cheraym

The ‘Other’ as outsider

Shereen Ratnagar

Let us return to the ``glory-continuity-roots`` paradigm mentioned in the first part of this article (Aryan-Harappan myth, October 11). Archaeologists agree that the Harappan script went out of use; that instead of the shallow street drains of Mohenjodaro, the towns of UP and Bihar in the time of the Buddha had more efficient sewage in the form of vertical ring ``wells`` and jars; that the network of land routes and sea trade serving the Harappan region terminated with the civilisation and new routes fell in place.

Even so, some suggest that Harappan traditions of bead-making still survive in the town of Khambhat. This, even though the modern industry utilises wage labour, iron pikes, diamond drills, and other elements absent in the bronze age, and even though no post-Harappan groups made the very long and thin red carnelian beads in which the Harappan beadmaker excelled. (The beads of later cultures were much smaller in size.)

Again, is it not hard to accept that the modern Sindhi ox-cart is a survival from Harappan times, if this kind of ox-cart is not continuously attested through all the centuries between these two periods? Tradition is not something that alternately freezes and thaws. Perhaps in a certain environment, modern cart-makers used similar raw materials and faced similar kinds of technological constraints as did the Harappans.

Much that has been said about proto-Hindu deities and practices in Harappan religion, too, originates with John Marshall, who, in the Twenties and Thirties, had no frame of reference other than ‘Hinduism’ in which to comprehend this newly discovered culture; in any case he did not give due attention to the work of Bhandarkar and misunderstood the character of certain Vedic deities. Yet, for decades scholars — and certainly this does not include ‘fascists’ alone — have uncritically followed his ideas on religious survivals from Harappan times.

There were abandonments of several Harappan villages, and of all the major cities, around 1800 BC, and it is of interest that, unlike the ancient Gangetic towns, the great Harappan cities never attracted settlement thereafter. Large-scale migration and resettlement points to the break-up/schism/fission and consequent re-forming of communities. This and the decline of State organisation would explain at least partly why the craft and writing traditions did not endure.

We are predisposed to the ‘continuity-roots’ idea because there is an old intellectual tradition that opposed the traditional and spiritual East steeped in religion, on the one hand, to the dynamic, technological, and rational West on the other. This is a European thought in origin, to which Indian academia has also been prone. Moreover, ‘it has always been so’ becomes a defence of hooliganism during the Ganapati immersion. This brings us to the crux of the issue.

Fundamentalism, whatever its colour, seeks continuities with a text or stage of development of a religion that is perceived to be the original stage. (In the case of the fundamentalist State of Pakistan, of course, it was essential to say that the great civilisation of Mohenjo-daro came to an end because the people had worshipped false gods.)

Movements that target groups within society as enemies require unquestioning allegiance. If the roots of the practice of Sati, or of caste divisions, lie in the remotest past, it is not easy to challenge them — and they become an aspect of being Indian. If Hinduism has been practised in this land since ‘time immemorial’, the ground is prepared to present the Muslim as the ‘Other’ outsider. The trend of singling out periods of the past for public attention, then, can in one sense be explained as Hindutva’s need for its ‘givens’, its unquestionable truths.

A very dangerous set of ideas follows from this kind of thinking, which is to ascribe actions, values, or beliefs, when convenient, to ‘Indianness’. We say that there is corruption not because we know we can get away with it, but because we are Indian. It is claimed that certain kinds of behaviour are ‘in the blood’ of Brahmins, others ‘in the genes’ of lower caste people.

Such thinking may well be fuelled by recent trends in which the study in America of Harappan and post-Harappan skulls and skeletons is being uncritically linked with questions of language (Aryans, for sure!) and even notions of identity. At Independence, we rejected the barbaric British notion that people of the ‘criminal tribes’ were born criminal — are we now veering back to such thinking?

It is essential to teach students of archaeology the social sciences of anthropology, history, and sociology, so that they can be equipped to study cultures other than their own, and cease to refer all their discoveries forward to the present.

But it is also reassuring that continuous vocal opposition over the last few years has not fallen on deaf ears. The new Harappan gallery in the National Museum has been set up with professional skill and displays little saffron garbage even if some Sacred Truths about continuity of religious practices still linger.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/121000/detOPI02.asp

Thanks, Q. Isa and Foqia, for the noble idea and sharing it with us. I hope to see your project succeeding and bearing fruits not in too distant future. Pankaj, I am impressed with your dedication, knowledge and desire to contribute positively. You are much smarter than what I was at 22. I wish you a bright, happy and successful future. I will be glad to interact again with you, hopefully, at some front page article.

Regards,

sameer

cheraym #130 you write: ``you should know what is the best school for Chem engg in US (keep it to yourself if you have guessed it correctly). ``

I thought they taught the value of sharing as the first step in education in kindergarten. Hopefully, you will find an elective on this at the university and so catch up. Incidentally, info on the best universities in the US is readily available to anyone interested on the internet, magazines.

SameerJB: Thanks for the interesting discussion on the possible relationship between the Gujjar tribes with the Khazar people. I remember reading a Russian author`s book on a history of the people of the sub-continent the same thing: that the Gujjars are descendents of a Scythian people who came to the sub-continent around the 5th century BC.

I also remember seeing a Discovery channel (?) documentary where they discussed certain customs of the Pathans and made a case for them being in fact the lost 13th tribe Israelis.

I am not sure how much scholarship has gone into such studies, and how much speculation. Any opinions?

SameerJB

I like the way you approach the problems. I searched and went through one of your previous article on Game theory and its applications. Infact I had this idea of combining Game Theory with ``Generalised Perception of Scarcity`` which is a psychological concept(for cherayam, learned from Lilavati Krishnan in Psychology) to propose a set of hypothesis that can possibly explain much of the social behavior of the people of the economical scarcity hit societies like subcontinental ones. May be some day when I get enough time I will write a monograph on this subject.

In the discussions that we carry out here in chowk, problems arise because we fail to identify and define problems accurately. Every one gives the solution based on his own understanding of the problem and so the different solutiona that we get are not of the same problem but different problems. A problem well defined is problem half done. Even after the problem is defined the responses of the people are not based on a critical analysis rather driven by emotions, subjective prejudices, or the set opinions/rules inherited from their immediate society. Lets say an objective analysis is done and people converge on different solutions. This may be because of

1. open ended nature of many social problems

2. The models that are used for analysis are different or do not properly account for certain variables.

3. Sufficient reliable data for analysis is not available.

4. Certain irrational factors like emotions come into play

We can appreciate such issues if we agree to the non linear aspect of the problems in which multiple solutions may exist. Intelligent people who use such an approach towards problems will definitely respect the people having alternative solutions in such cases.

Your remark about boundary conditions is very apprpriate. Infact for a successful problem solving, one needs to define problem first, then determine the proper rules of nature applicable to that problem(like differential equations which are nothing but rules of nature). In the final phase it is absolutely necessary to determine proper domain( or boundary conditions) in which the rules are applicable and do an integration to determine the solution. I love discussing with people who follow such an approach.

Cheers

Dear Sameer and Pankaj:

I should not lead the discussion away from the article concerned as per the directive of chowk (and rightly so), but I could not resist my temptation to reply to Sameers` brilliant expression of a great scholarly mind. I wish I was so well read as you are, Sameer. I like the way you have extrapolated the concept of limit and boundary conditions. I am waiting for the day when my son grows up little bit more and when I have more time after my daily chores both at U and home.

Pankaj, I can not give away much information about myself for obvious reasons. As you are in US and in Chem engg, you should know what is the best school for Chem engg in US (keep it to yourself if you have guessed it correctly). I was fortunate enough to do graduate study there, and now after couple of post-docs, I have been in my current position in a relatively good school for the last five years somewhere in this world. But I do have a close tie with IITK, and work with SKG in optimization area. My specialization is in gas-soild separation, CFD, and process development for air water cleaning. Have you developed your own code for simulating flow through porous media? I am more than a decade older than you, and yes I still cherish the IIT days, I was in GH.

Regards

cheraym

Pankaj and Cheraym: Thanks for the thoughtfulness and guessing about my background. Actually, on various occasions I have mentioned about my extensive background in natural sciences, chemistry to be exact. My only teaching experience comes from being TA during my graduate studies. I have always been fascinated with the application of scientific and logical paradigms to interpret non-scientific issues. Actually science itself be worthless, if it is not used properly in life. Reading books by authors like, Carl Sagan, Linus Pauling, Richard Dawkins, Freeman Dyson, Stephen Hawkins, Issac Asimov and others really help in understanding many non-scientific aspects of life.

The use of vocabulary like boundary conditions or setting the limits is necessary to understand almost everything except few boundless things like imagination or spirituality. What would be the case if we do not have boundaries or limits? Can Pakistan win any cricket match, if boundaries for Pakistani team are set farther than the opponents? Similarly certain variables, like empires’ mindset will have lot more contribution to the outcome than spectators, weather conditions. Just as the solutions of integrated equations in calculus can lead to different results depending on the boundary conditions, changing the limits in religious matters would lead to varied results, failed expectations and unpleasant consequences with certain variables like classical interpretation, history of Islamic empires with extensive use of brutalities, madrassa and jihadi culture adversely effecting the outcome. Not only religions but also the physical laws will fail by changing boundary condition, for example, the limits of gravity and speed of light. In order to not have unpleasant outcome, the importance of negative variables have to be reduced to a level where they could be dropped out of the equation without significantly changing the desirable result. Jesus was setting the limit when he said about taxes, “give to Romans what is theirs and give to God what is His”. Western concept of separation of Church and State is also a step in this direction of setting the limits.

In order for religions to be beneficial and alive, they must be constantly evolving with the changing conditions. There must constantly undergo the process of reformation and reformulation. Hinduism would have been lot more successful worldwide, had they eliminated caste system and sati rituals early on. Islam would have also been lot more successful by decreasing the stress on time consuming rituals, dependency on Arabic language and culture and abolition of slavery ahead of western civilization. There was no need to interpret all events and physical laws in the light of religion. It did not benefit Islam when Sheik Abdel Aziz Bin Baz gave fatwas about everything and a well-respected Pakistani religious scholar interpreted higher density of water at 4 degrees Celsius so that sea life could survive under ice covered lakes and seas.

Religions are not panacea; they are part of the overall culture and their limitations in individual life as well as in the society as a whole must be well understood. Do not expect things which religion are not equipped to provide. Over-expectation would lead to disappointment, wasted time, resources and energies.

Krashid: I do understand chemistry quite well and the complex and enormous source of potential benefits found in a number of herbs, shrubs and trees. Many of them have been found very useful, both in labs and in the extended human experience. Again, there are limits to their efficacy and importance, especially when suffering from some serious illnesses. After all, the extension of life expectancy and general health in the developed nations owes it to the practices of modern medicine, among other factors.

temporal: pehle Khuda phir Rasool—pehle limitless phir conditional—pehle macroanalysis phir microanalysis—pehle generalized phir reductionism—pehle basics phir details (Sharia, Fiqah, Hadees, Organized Religions, Imam, Mullahs are details to me) and my favorite would be pehle taleem phir tafheem. Thus pehle insaan phir mussalman.

From almost b sameer to rms temporal….

Tahmed: I am what in urdu is called “kitabi keera”. I have read Arthur Koestler’s “Thirteenth Tribe” although I was familiar with the history much before the book came out. The European historians are not as restrained as US historians, when it comes to writing what they believe is the case. In the USA authors do not like to stir any such controversy which involves Jewish people. I am responding at this board because it has some relevance to our history also.

It is widely believed that a tribe named Khazars converted en-masse to Judaism in eleventh century. Khazars belonged to a class of people termed Scythians by historians. Scythians were a mixture of Turkic-Altai-East European people dominating the Eurasian steppes following Aryan migrations(?). Huns were on the eastern side and Khazars on the western side of this vast land mass. Now it gets intersting. Soon after Alexander the Great’s invasion of India, Scythians started pouring into India in waves and established many dynasties in northwest India (currently Pakistan) until the seventh century of current era. In local vernaculars, they are called Saka dynasties. First wave entering India was from western steppes, establishing Kushan dynasty with famous Buddhist King Kanishka were none other than Khazars. Remember this happened around 100 BC-100 AD while the conversion to Judaism took place around 1100 AD. It is widely believed among desi historians that the word Gujjars arose from word Khazars ( although some believe, it came from words gao and char; people who raise cows) and that Gujjars are the descendants of Khazars. Similarly, Hazara is also believed to be Khazara or Khazaria originally. A large number of Gujjars are still living in Hazara district of Pakistan. The city of Gujrat and Gujranwala as well as Indian state of Gujrat owe their origins to Gujjars. Do you find any similarity between Ashk-e-nazi Jews and Gujju Patels? Ever been to any number of shops named Patel Brothers? (Just kidding)

Jats are generally believed to be the descendants( in parts) of later Scythian waves and Rajputs and many Pathan tribes from the last wave of white Huns. Interesting suff?

This is actually a portion of our history, to which little disagreement between Indian and pakistani historians is expected.

Its a wonderful idea to write a joint history textbook.We have to launch a struggle against the dictum that all histories are national histories.It is ironical that the Hindu India and theIslamic Pakistan have chosen to partition what is of necessity and for a large part a shared history.

I am familiar with the works of Ayesha Jalal,Mubarak Ali, Anil Sethi and Krishna Kumar and I believe they will do a good job.

I have taught modern history at Delhi University and would love to participate in this collective endeavour in whatever capacity I can.

With best Wishes for a noble cause.

Cherayam

Yeah and I miss those peacocks too. BTW I used to live in Hall 2 F-bot Room 162. I will never forget my days in IITK. Those nightouts before Chem101, bulla and tulla throughout the night, following girls in Antaragni and most of all, passion of Galaxy(remember gaali contests between Hall2 and 3 during Galaxy). Those moments are unforgettable, permanently itched in memory.

Cheers