Joint Indo-Pak School History Textbook on the Web

Anil #12 you ask (for purposes of promoting better understanding among South Asians) ``Would someone consider developing South Asian Leadership Council?``

The idea is good. I believe there already are some Indo-Pakistan Peace movements around (they have had meetings in Lahore and possibly other places). I would like to know more about these to see (a) if we can simply join and reinforce existing efforts that are already ``on the ground``; or (b) ensure that any new movement that start works in close partnership with existing ones for some common, well-defined goals.

Could someone on Chowk provide some info on these existing peace efforts?

Nothing was said of translations, perhaps the authors or someone else related to the project could shed some light on this. Specifically, will the translations be left to publishers or will an equally reputed (and objective) historian translate the book?

Umairr, #14

``Any objectve views.....will be welcome.``

Ha!Ha!Ha! An objective view about a subjective observation? Aap ka bhi jawaab nhiN! BTW, inadvertently, you forgot Sianchin! Umairr, please do not try to hijack the board.

Re. the project, a humble idea. However, there should be ample safeguards that the whole thing does not turn out to be a `politically correct` exercise. Look at the Indian constitution, with a humble aim in providing a secular fabric, it actually created class-cum-caste-cum-religion protective interests. Thus solidifying these very prejudices. Also gave rise to such gender and ethnic-religio base legislations as the Hindu Code, Muslim Personal Laws, etc.

The purpose of the project should be NOT to `correct` the current version(s), but to factualize it. After that let the reader be the ultimate judge, jury, or whatever.History is all about the past and the facts it contain. Please leave the interpretations to the students.

Kant.....

A very very good idea.

Anil should be congratulated for offering to underwrite the expenses.

re: stayavadi, friend et al

Should not get too worried whether history teaching in India should be compared with Pakistan or not. The point is that there are distortions in history teaching on both sides. In India the communal eelemnt is becoming stronger. I do not know about Pakistan but given the conditions things cannot be improving. So let us welcome this initiative without any ifs and buts.

Umairr #14

``..how exactly does the BJP end up winning all these elections; again and again and again.``

1.BJP does not win elections regularly (so far).

2.TINA (There Is No Alternative):

Vajpayee vs Sonia (Give me a break!).

Vajpayee vs Kesri??

A STARTING POINT,

Before the pakistani historians get busy correcting the indian history of a thousand years old, why cant they fix up their own recent history where the facts are still available. From nation of today,

History and truth

Hafizur Rahman

I once wrote in this column how for a national philatelic exhibition in Quetta intending participants were directed not to send any postage stamps that bore the effigy of Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. This was in the time of General Ziaul Haq. Apparently not content with hanging the man, the General also wanted to murder history by implying that there had been no such phenomenon as ZAB.

This was not all. Very few people besides educationists know that entire books of Pakistan studies were revised with ZAB in mind. The General would have liked that his predecessor should not be mentioned in history books at all, but since that was not possible, the next best thing was to paint the man as a deep-dyed villain, something akin to Iblees or Dracula. So the period when the man ruled the country came to be described in school and college books as ``a dark and evil period in Pakistan`s otherwise glorious history.`` In these books the emergence of Bangladesh too was laid at Mr Bhutto`s door, while poor General Yahya Khan got nothing for his effort! This was for the man who, for the first time in the history of the Subcontinent made the common Muslim stand up with pride in himself and contempt for the feudal --- the millstone around the community`s neck; the man who laid the foundations of Pakistan`s nuclear programme for which he had to pay with his life as a result of collusion between the United States and General Ziaul Haq; for the man who was threatening to lead the Third World against the hegemony of the super power.

When Ms Benazir Bhutto became prime minister in 1988, a committee was appointed to revise school and college history books and purge them of offensive material about her father. Maybe the committee erred on the side of the other extreme --- this I have not been able to find out. But it is certain that the good work, for whatever it was worth, could only have been done in BB`s first tenure when some germs of idealism still infected her mind. In the second coming she was completely overtaken by money considerations infused in her by an enterprising husband.

/// take it easy historians, there it is one version for you to work on. Get cracking, check is in the mail.

A third view,

Some of the most boring and insipid reports that no one can read more than two pages are produced by the UN. They do not want to offend any one, crtical perspective are a no no.

The idea of an indo=pak book produced by a commitee, to be used in both the countries, great some have got out of cookoo land.

`` Gaznavi was a muslim explorer who heard about the wealth of Somnath temple, came with a few of his friends. He looked at the jewells, liked a few and by mistake pocketed a few. The temple priests didnt like this, they objected, there was a melee, and when everything cleared, the priests were found dead.``

I like that type of compromise history, a lot of children and teachers in kerala are waiting for it. I have a lot of paper, used only on one side, I can send it for the project, for the manuscript purpose.

Umairr,

The Congress-I party was basically a personality cult revovling around the Nehru-Gandhi family. After they died, it has drifted aimlessly without any leadership. There were attempts by Sonia Gandhi to give it some form of leadership, but she failed. Many middle class Indians also equate Congress to Indira Gandhi`s failed socialism.

Indians were predicting a future of coalition govts with Prime Ministers rising & falling--similar to what is happening in Italy. As a matter of fact, during the 90`s India probably had more Prime Ministers than the previous 40yrs or so, since independance.

I think the BJP took a huge gamble when they conducted the nuclear tests in the late 90s. Either they were extremely astute or extraordinarily stupid, though lucky. I suspect it was the last.

After the nuclear tests, India was in the international doghouse. Almost every country condemned it. Domestically, after the initial euphoria died down, it started dawning on many Indians that it was a stupid thing to do. People were beginning to take to the streets in protest.

The rest of the world (especially the West) pleaded with Pakistan not to follow suit. They even offered generous incentives & ``bribes``. I will argue that if Pakistan had not followed suit, India would be in Pakistan`s situation today. The Kashmir problem would have been given its due priority & India would have become the Serbia of Asia. Clinton would have visited Pakistan & Bangladesh & purposely ignored India. The Clinton administration was furious with India & clearly tilted towards Pakistan after India`s tests. In the few weeks gap between the Indian & Pakistani tests, Pakistan`s stock had risen dramatically in the international arena. Down the road,the BJP would have been outcast in India, licking its radioactive wounds.

But that was not to be. Thats where I wonder aloud whether they are extraordinarily astute. The BJP knew Pakistan had the capability of exploding nuclear weapons--that was no secret. I wonder if they were banking on the fact that Pakistan just would`nt rest until they carried the tit-for-tat testing. The BJP sensed that the Indian economy could withstand international sanctions (relatively speaking); whereas the Pakistani economy would go down the tubes, if sanctioned. Thats where the gamble paid off.

After that, a series of Pakistani blunders continued to help the BJP`s popularity. Whatever Kargil`s rationale was, it was Pakistan`s biggest foreign policy mistake. BJP was successful in portraying to Indians that Pakistan is nothing but a back stabbing, terrorist sponsoring country. They milked it to the max & paid rich dividends domestically. When national security is at stake, people generally rally behind the existing govt.

To their credit though, they adopted liberalisation rapidly & the economy started improving . The IT revolution also helped them domestically & internationally. At last the world was beginning to realise that maybe India is`nt a hopeless basketcase afterall.

On the international front, I dont think the BJP was/is all that successful. Their efforts to label Pakistan a terrorist state is an excercise in futility. It was Pakistan`s military coup that lead it to international isolation--not the BJP. Right, wrong or indifferent, the mujahadeen are not helping Pakistan`s standing in the world. The US has concluded that they are against American interests.

The world, especially the US, will never allow Pakistan to become a pariah state--not when it has nuclear weapons. Similarly,it is not in the US interests to have Pakistan default on its loans. I suspect the US wants to have leverage over Pakistan by keeping it in debt, & when they are at the verge of default, announce magnanimously that they will give them emergency financial relief--just so that Pakistan remains mired in a debt trap. I dont think the BJP can take any ``credit`` for that; but it suits them just fine.

Unless some other national party can challenge them (which I doubt in the near future), the BJP will be around for a long time to come--alas. India`s only hope is that they can be ideologically restrained in a coalition govt. I shudder to think what could happen if the BJP got absolute majority.

I have three comments to make

a) A country which teaches that

K is for Kafir ( read hindu with a photo to boot)

and

J is for jalim ( read sikh with a photo to boot)

can never hope to see history objectively.

b) While talking of history and the Muslim rulers and their atrocities it is important to see how religious minorities fare in the so called `Islamic republics` of today. Can u build a temple in Saudi Arabia or worship your god? Why is their institutionalised discrimination against religious minorities in the `islamic republics`? If this is state in the 21st century , i shudder to think the state of religious minorities during the earlier centuries under the `Islamic rule`. Why is their lack of democracies in the `Islamic states`?

c) Who were the `pakistani ` people before the advent of `Islam` in the subcontinent. Given the violent history of the `Islamic ` hordes, I am interested to know how many converted to Islam with the sword staring in front of them? What is the Pakistani reaction to their Hindu ancestory and strong attempts to `Arabize` their ancestory.

many of the militants killed in kashmir call themselves `Abu ....` to sound Arabic. What kind of 3rd rate treatment the Pakis get in the Arab lands is seen to be believed.

The Indonesians who have converted to Islam are quite still proud and celebrate thier Hindu ancestory.

``Eklavya - a tonne of anything let alone pearls - will kill for sure !!``

True, aicha, but nothing else will bring half as much pleasure...

``You seem to be too much afraid of dying.``

Oh dear Aamir,

I am the last person to be afraid of dying, especially when my killer is so very special as she is...

BTW patangas have come and gone. I am taking complete control of this shamma.

Mere sher bhi naye hain, Aamir bhai, mera andaaz bhi naya

main un patango me nahin hoon jinka janaja nikal gaya.

Umairr:

The history i read in my schooling days doesn`t contain any muslim bashing.Sure there are negative comments about Aurangazeb, Ghori,Ghazni and some other invaders.Afterall Aurangazeb imposed Zizya on Hindus and Ghori,Ghazni destroyed countless temples.So you cannot expect Hindus to look some positive aspects in these monsters.I have read about the Ghazni and Ghoris temple destructions even in Pakistan`s news papers(The News).Aurngazeb killed even some of the sikh gurus in the heart of Delhi. If you goto Karnataka down south you will see some of the Idols in temples that are destroyed by muslim sultans still standing.Like hands cut down and half destroyed idols.I don`t remember the name of the town where these temples stand today.may be someone from Karnataka will tell about this.

In some of the Pakistan news papers(english) they call names when they refer to Hindus like bania`s, zhalim log etc.You won`t see any main stream Indian news paper calling names on any community let alone Muslims.I don`t care about the history but atleast the language in Pakistani news papers should be changed first.

Question: Why do the mountain ranges bordering Pakistan and Afghanistan are called Hindu Kush mountains.(any specific meaning for the word Hindu Kush).

Assalamlaikum.

Great idea. Thanks for the information. I have no idea about any of this because I didn`t study in Pakistan, but I did teach as a substitute teacher(I was harly qualified) in 4th grade for a day or so and in their social studies class, but I didn`t come across any anti-india stance in any part of it.

Good work.

Wassalam.

Aisha

Really only a half-necessary thing, since we have repeatedly been informed that Indian history textbooks are completely objective and lack any bias whatsoever (I believe someone used the word `perfect`). Someone should tell Mr. Daudpota he may be wasting half his effort!

Still waiting for Prof. Hoodhboy to let us know if the committee he is part of is bringing about any changes in the Pakistani syllabi..

SameerJB,

i think your idea about a chapter on the south asian diaspora is a good one, but the book will probably be a long time in the making. why not make a documentary?

Anil Kapuria,

your idea about a south asian leadership council is also interesting, but how would you go about it? under what umbrella? whose politics?

urstruly,

crucifixes? huh?

animika: #11: ``The BJP version of history is not widespread and cannot become widespread since there are enough watchdogs making sure that it does not spill over.``

It is very difficult for an outsider to figure out what the BJP stands for. I have visited their website many times, and have gone through all the pages there. This website is maintained by the BJP itself, so one would have to assume it represents exactly the picture the BJP wants to present. I think one can safely assume that it is the most authentic form of information about the ideas of the BJP. One can also assume it presents the BJP in its best light, i.e. exactly the way BJP wants to present itself.

There are way too many quotes and articles on this website to list here, that describe the BJP as a fundamentalist Hindu party. There are also writings on this site that describe the history of India as one in which the Muslims were basically savages:

``During the era of Islamic invasions, what Will Durant called the bloodiest period in the history of mankind, many Hindus gallantly resisted, knowing full well that defeat would mean a choice of economic discrimination via the jaziya tax on non- Muslims, forced conversion, or death. It is no wonder that the residents of Chittor, and countless other people over the length and breadth of Bharat, from present-day Afghanistan to present-day Bangladesh, thought it better to die gloriously rather than face cold-blooded slaughter. Hindus never forgot the repeated destruction of the Somnath Temple, the massacre of Buddhists at Nalanda, or the pogroms of the Mughals.

Thus, the seeds of todayUs Hindu Jagriti, awakening, were created the very instance that an invader threatened the fabric of Hindu society which was religious tolerance. The vibrancy of Hindu society was noticeable at all times in that despite such barbarism from the Islamic hordes of central Asia and Turkey, Hindus never played with the same rules that Muslims did. The communist and Muslim intelligentsia, led by Nehruvian ideologists who are never short of distorted history, have been unable to show that any Hindu ruler ever matched the cruelty of even a moderate Muslim ruler.`` (www.bjp.org)

I personally do not support the conquests of India by Muslim kings. And it is quite possible that the point of view expressed by the above article is an accurate view of history (it is definitely an accurate view of the BJP`s view of Indian history, since is straight off their website).

However, there is one thing I have yet to figure out. Everyone from India on Chowk seems to fall into two categories regarding the BJP. One group hates the BJP, and consders them extremists. The other group dislikes the BJP, and points out that India is actually being governed by a coalition. It states that the BJP is not as extremist as its own website indicates it to be. Or it points out that there are too many groups in India opposing the BJP, and hence the BJP, ``version of history,`` or the BJP philosophy, ``cannot become widespread.``

If everyone in India is either criticizing or apologizing for the BJP, then how exactly does the BJP end up winning all these elections; again and again and again. Obviously, someone is voting for them. Where exactly is that group, and its representatives? This group should be the largest group, since the BJP has a far larger representation in the Indian govt. than any other party. And it must believe in the BJP ideals that the BJP has put up in its manifesto and on its website (otherwise, it would not vote for the BJP).

After reading BJP`s literature (put out by the BJP itself), I am convinced the BJP is based on an extremist version of fundamentalism (this does not mean that the India society as a whole has been transformed into the BJP`s views). However, how can someone state, ``The BJP version of history is not widespread and cannot become widespread`` when so many non-Chowk Indians are voting for the BJP.

Any objective views from Indians will be appreciated.

Good idea. I just hope it works out well.

What I don`t understand is the internet publishing part of it all. If the book is meant to teach youngsters the ``truth`` about the subcontinent`s history, why would you want it to be published on the net? Will these children and students be able to access it? Will they be able to understand it?

How about writing it, translating it into Urdu and Hindi, and publishing it IN PAPER to be distributed in schools and libraries in Pakistan and India. I`m sure you`ll find a company to publish it free of charge. And if not, I`m sure you`ll be able to collect funds for that purpose.

Internet publishing will only serve to inform a small percentage of well-to-do or internet savvy desis, not the masses in Pakistan and India who need the ``enlightenment`` the most.

scout