Joint Indo-Pak School History Textbook on the Web

Thanx Krashid. I would prefer crude but honest people any day over polished but hypocrites. This net is indeed a beautiful thing. You can bring out all that is simmering within you without having to care for other`s feelings. May be such an exercise by giving vent to our feelings,avoids dangerous explosion in our real lives.

Cheers

SameerJB and Tahmed

Interesting discussion. If I correctly interpret Sameer, the point he makes is that given the varied interpretations of religious beliefs, religion often becomes a weapon in the hands of a determined bigoted clique to brainwash the less intellectually gifted majority to tread its path. Few selfish Mullas among Muslims and their Hindu counterparts as Mahants, use a vulnerable God fearing majority to further their own interests. What Tahmed says is also right. If there are conscientious people who interpret the sayings with a humanitarian point of view, realising that the truth can be multifaceted, there would be little problem. But my friend Tahmed, this is not practical looking at the way priests of organized religion abuse religion. The point is not whether religious teachings are right or wrong but that how are they interpreted and still more importantly how are they implemented. So in my opinion, organized religion should be banned and the task of interpretation should be left to the individual. I have more faith that when the impressionable minds are not poisoned, they will probably interpret more objectively. No one wants to have bloodshed and quarrels. One more point, all the religions contain certain teachings which were inserted by some selfish people like caste system in Hinduism. With changing times people must apply their own wisdom to alter or eradicate such things.

BTW, Sameer I love words of your vocab like boundary conditions being a student of engg.Only a scientist/engineer can truly appreciate the beauty of two point boundary value problems.

Cheers

RE: krashid

``What are you doing on this forum, tracing your ancestry to India? Aren`t you an American citizen.``

No, I am not an American citizen. How silly and typical of you to assume that I am.

``My ancesstors settled in all parts of India, but they came from Arab, Central Asia, and Iran. What can I do?``

For most of you, your ancestors did not come from anywhere. You are the children and descendants of forced converts. Most of you should go look in a mirror and then look at the pictures of some Arabs and you`ll see what I am talking about. Your Moose CE leader was born in Delhi and looks as much. Throw him in India, strip his Quran from his chest and he`ll fit right in. Pathetic fools.

SameerJB #101 I am not sure that religion is the cause of these ``We-Good-You-Bad`` posts. A serious consideration of any religion tends to reveal the profound humanity and beauty of the basic concepts, of their commonality of concepts in all other religions. So it cant be religion. I suspect the cause of such attacks and counterattacks have to do with (a) psychological factors - personal insecurities, feelings of inferiority, anger - that interact with (b) the peculiarities of the internet medium. These peculiarities include the one-dimensional interaction that some chowkwallahs, including temporal and myself had discussed earlier. Similarly, in real life, religion is dragged in as a means to promote ``hidden`` psychological agendas: a desire to gain authority without responsibility (this, I suspect, is what caused people like Zia, Nawaz Sharif, assorted Mullahs to call of an Islamic State), a desire to overcome feelings of inferiority and servitude through nationistic fervor, and so forth.

RSaxena#

Your remarks on manoj quote are interesting.

That unlike Muslims Hindus don`t trace their ancesstory to Arabs.

Can they?

What are you doing on this forum, tracing your ancesstary to India? Aren`t you an American citizen.

What is good for you is good for us. My ancesstors settled in all parts of India, but they came from Arab, Central Asia, and Iran. What can I do?

Pankaj#

I see any issue as a human issue. It does not matter to me if it happens in India or Pakistan or any other country. That is my choice.

As I am not politician and don`t intend to be. I don`t expect people on this forum to meet in real life, so I can be very crude.

This is a thought forum. Real life is relationship forum. And In the last analysis,I have to carry my own Cross. So why burden my conscience, when I can do without that. In real life, I might smile and say ``Oh yes Kashmir issue is a complicated issue, lets go and eat``.

What I would think and do if I am in the shoes of Kashmiri? Do they have a right? Is their right historically, geographically and morally justified?. I found myself more sympathetic to the thoughts of Umair, who is a Kashmiri himself. Moreover, I have worked with Kashmiris in Iran, both Hindu and Muslim.

Krashid

I do not wish to start a discussion on much accursed K- issue, but from whatever info I have, I believe it is more of an Indo-Pak problem than an indigeneous Kashmiri uprising. I also do not believe that the war is being carried out by Kashmiris alone and with only ``moral`` support of Pakistan. This is not to say that Indian forces are pious and they are not committing any immoral or sinful deed in Kashmir. However, all the talk about freedom of Kashmiris seems only a facade to me to blur ulterior motives. If right of self determination is extended too far every minor group speaking a different dialect will claim a nation of there own. Regarding rights of Kashmiris, they must enjoy inalienable rights as free men. Presently if you know, no Indian from any other part of India can buy land or settle in Kashmir as a citizen of state. This provision of Indian Constitution already guarantees that the demographic balance of the state is kept intact. Infact I am in favor of guaranting autonomy to the state in all respects except Defence, Foreign affairs, and Communication. Kashmir has to be prevented from going Taliban way that Mujahideens like L-e-t want to take it to. But for this Pakistan MUST stop cross border terrorism and let peaceloving Kashmiris to sit and talk with the Indian Govt. Pakistan foiled the recent peace dialogue as it was afraid that if the talk is successful it may deprive him of the status of being a party in the issue.Pray what other argument but TNT(that I disagree with) can be put forward in advocating for a free Kashmir.

I am all for declaring LoC as the permanent border and end this internecine struggle. Lets say goodbye to Kashmir issue, settle down peacefully and do some good work for our countries. I optimistically hope that good days will return and we will be able to sit and talk about pleasant things over a coffee table. I know we have a lot of grievances against each other, but afterall we had lived together for centuries and sorted them out. For the sake of millions of poor, and common people we can at least make an attempt to mellow down our differences and pay attention to more constructive things. United we stand, divided we fall.

Cheers

Krashid

Its not the story of India alone but also Pakistan or for that matter rest of the world. No country has a monopoly on violence and injustice. Regarding your answer, I have not heard of any mosque brought down in Kashmir. Regarding intercaste clashes, lower castes are much more independent and well off economically now than before. If the economic progress continues at this rate, and with the spread of urbanization it will not be long before this evil is completely eradicated. The awareness among dalits about their constituitonal rights is increasing and they will soon come at par with the rest of countrymen. I need not tell but as an aware citizen you might be aware of equivalent forms of social injustice in Pakistan too. And regarding Mujahideens, I will not say anything but that violence begets violence. My views differ on this issue and I would not debate on that.

All said, I thought you were declaring mosque demolition and other things to be happening in India on a daily basis. Anyway you are entitled to your opinions.

Sincerely

tahmad321 (#100):

[All I see are the usual tiresome Hindu-Muslim-we-are-good-you-are-bad postings.]

What else is new? This style of discourse appears to be the most popular among certain desis this late in the twentieth century. But these people do not held sway over the mind and thoughts of a very large number of concerned individuals. The progress of such projects will ultimately depend on the determination of the authors and working out ingenious planning to expedite such a well-intentioned sevice for the next generation of desis.

I wonder why people do not realize that the principle of exclusivity of truth through religion is crumblining not only because of inter-religious rivalries but also intra-religious divisiveness with no inherent forces in them to control the rise in entropy. It is pathetic when the concerns of religions supersede the concerns and goodwill towards individuals, society and fellow human beings. Not only it elevates the status of religious intellectuals over all intellectuals in their respective fields, it also makes the behavior of such nations very predictable. It is often said that what we need is to follow Islam in its true essence. By following it in international relations means losing the element of surprise or flexibilty. Your adversaries or nemesis can also learn ``Islam in its true essence`` and correctly forcast your stand on a variety of social, moral, economical, political and in the area of international relationship.

That is why religion should play no role in governance in modern times. A history textbook written as objectively as possible is a step in the right direction, if we are interested in progress towards a just society and peaceful co-existance with our neighbors and the rest of the world.

All religions are true within the boundary conditions of self. It creates problems when we try to extend the boundary conditions to others and to other nations whose majority belongs to a different religion. What we see then is what we are seeing here at chowk so often.

Isa/Sadiq: I took a quick look at the recent correspondence on this subject and dont see any progress on your initiative. All I see are the usual tiresome Hindu-Muslim-we-are-good-you-are-bad postings. You as the discussion facilitators seem to have gone for lunch in the meantime.

Please advise if this initiative is proceeding or that you have dropped it.

Pankaj #97

There was a news of another mosque demolition recently.

In Kashmir soldiers go in mosque with boots.

Recently a soldier has been punished for raping a Kashmiri (an eyewash and tip of ice burg.

And examples you are giving from Bihar or if you give from Kanpur, Gujrat, Maharashter or any other place. Aren`t they part of India.

Re: manoj

``....The only difference is that the Indians dont try to trace their history / ancestory to the arabs. Which the pakistanis try quite streneously!!!!! without any results``

Most of these Jihadis are the descendants of forced converts. Had their forefathers been braver and not given in to the threat of the invading sword, they`d be a little different today. And South Asia would be a little different today. They never were Arabic and never will be. It`s almost laughable.

Krashid

You may not be correct. Mosques are not demolished in India on a daily basis.(give me an example other than Babri Masjid). Also except for Bihar where there is a caste war between upper castes represented by Ranvir Sena and lower castes representsd by Naxalites and Marxists revolutionery army, there is no institutionalised killings of lower castes in any other part of India. Although extremely lower castes such as Harijans still face some social discrimination(note ``social``) they are advantaged group when it comes to govt jobs in which they have 50% reservation.(Backwards:27% Sc/ST: 22.5%). So I dont find your statements accurate.

Sincerely

Manoj!

Your words are beautiful.

I hope word could fill the stomach of the world whether truth or lies.

But it needs actions. And so for all things.

Bombay riots were Hindu Muslim riots. Thousands were killed.

In New Dehli thousands of Sikhs were killed.

In Kashmir unfortunately the INDIGENT Hizbul-Mujahideen of interim period is now Pakistani militants. Hundreds of thousands killed.

Daily killing of Muslims, low caste hindus, christians, burning of churches, demolition of mosques etc. (And don`t tell they are lie)

Do I believe your words or your actions.

Historical accuracy in Pakistani social studies textbooks is often less important than ideology. In Pakistan, all students are required to take courses called Pakistan Studies and must pass standardized tests based on that curriculum. There are numerous textbooks published under the title, Pakistan Studies, which are, in general, a composite of patriotic discourses, justification of the Two-Nation Theory, Muslim heroes, and discussions of the superiority of Islamic principals over Hinduism. Pakistan Studies as a compulsory subject at the secondary and college level came in to being during the regime of General Zia-ul-Haq. The textbooks authored to reflect his mandates are decidedly anti-democratic and anti-ethnic, inclined to dogmatic tirades and filled with oxymorons and internal contradictions, and they are still in use in today`s Pakistan. Pakistani nationalism is characterized by ironies and contractions.

The manipulation of the media and the twisted historical discourse found in Pakistani Social Studies textbooks present multiple inconsistencies and oxymorons. In contemporary Pakistani textbooks the historical narrative is quite naturally, based on the Two Nation Theory. The story of the nation begins with the advent of Islam when Mohammed-bin-Qazim arrived in Sindh followed by Mahmud of Ghazni storming through the Khyber Pass, 16 times, bringing the ``Light of Islam to the infidels`` who converted en mass to escape the evil domination of the ``cruel Brahmins``. Reviewing a selection of textbooks published since 1972 in Pakistan will verify the assumption that there is little or no discussion of the ancient cultures that have flowed
in the land that is now Pakistan, such as Taxila and Mohenjo-Daro. In general, any mention of Hinduism is inevitably accompanied by derogatory critiques, and none of the greatness of Indic civilization is considered--not even the success of Chandragupta Maurya, who defeated, or at least frightened the invading army of Alexander the Great at the banks of the Beas River where it flows through the land that is now called Pakistan. These events are deemed meaningless since they are not about Muslim heroes. There is an elision in time between the moment Islam first arrived in Sindh and Muhammad Ali Jinnah. According to A.H. Nayyar a professor at Quaid-e-Azam University, ``What is important in the exercise is the faithful transmission, without any criticism or re-evaluation, of the particular view of the past which is implicit in the coming to fruition of the `Pakistan Ideology.```

History and social studies textbooks in Pakistan glorify the exploits of Muhammad-bin-Qazim, who is credited with bringing Islam and Arab culture to South Asia through the Indus Valley corridor.
In reality, Mohammed-bin-Qazim beheaded most men above the age of eighteen in several cities in Sindh. He captured thousands of Sindhi women and sent them to harems in the Abbasid kingdom. Pre-Islamic Sindhis fought valiantly against these foreign invaders, in fact repelling about fifteen raiding attempts by Arab armies to invade Sindh, before Muhammad-bin- Qazim was finally successful.

BTW there is no doubt that Aurangzeb was a villan. In fact he was one of the greates tyrant.