Joint Indo-Pak School History Textbook on the Web

yasser,

just surfed over to the ``siqafat`` website for a few. I often disagree with what you say but my respect for you has increased.

Keep it up, bro.

Prem

aicha #31 and tahmed #30

Dear aicha

a) Well aicha , I want to ask you if it is possible for a non muslim to practise his religion in Saudi Arabia. A hindu cant take pictures of his GOd etc inside S. Arabia. people go to US and other countries for work9ex pats) but are free to practise their religion. Surely there is no danger to S. arabia if someone prays to his God in his house or in a religious place.

b) you are very true when u say that Indians / Pakistanis are given 3rd rate treatment in mid east. The only difference is that the Indians dont try to trace their history / ancestory to the arabs. Which the pakistanis try quite streneously!!!!! without any results.

c) Aicha, why does not democracy take root in the Islamic republics? because the essential ingredient of democracy `tolerance` is missing.

d) aicha, do you also believe that conversion of native Indians to Islam was peaceful and without force?

e) I wish I could give link where this kashmiri militants naming themselves Abu ...... to sound more arabic.

I will appreciate a point wise rebuttal.

Dear tahmed,

Dont worry if I am fake or not.

But please announce it to the forum that the K for .. and J or Z for .. is not taught in Pakistan. The fountainhead of hatred lies in the place called `land of the pure` and no where else.

Pl let all of us know why a non muslim cant become the PM or President or the Army chief. unless of course you have `peacefully` converted everybody.

Indians dont teach that muslims are Kafirs and fit to be killed. The kids in indian school sing

`Ishwar Allah tero naam, sabko sumati ( good sense) de bhagwan`. Quite unlike the madressa educated cyber jehadis from the `land of the pure`!!!!

CENSORSHIP- PAK STYLE,

In the `nation` of today, in the opinion column there is an open letter to vajpaye. The details of the author, in the last two lines have been blued out for censorsip. Stll faintly legible, the author is the leader of a jihadic organisation. Internet censor ship, pak style and this is original, a real contribution to IT from pakistan.

The premier Pakistani publication at Rutgers

Cut`n`paste, of which I am the co editor, can now be accessed from

http://www.siqafat.cjb.net

Dear Chowk: due to workload, I did not get into this forum until now. I wholeheartedly appreciate this idea. I am not sure how I can be of any use, my background is in Engineering, and have read very little history. However, if I can be of any assistance, you know where I am located from my user ID, and feel free to contact.

Jay #81, you are an intelligent man with wits matching only with Hamidm here (judging from your posts only). Please refrain from adding salt to the injury. This is not going to take us anywhere.

Paging for gymno, Sadhna, Zeemax, Farangikush, yes where is Farangikush?

Regards

cheraym

How ironic! that Pankaj`s post echoes Mr Jinnah`s speech of 1920 Congress Nagpur session made in opposition to Mr Gandhi`s involvement in Khilafat Movement and his noncooperation Movement.

Yasser Hamdani

Based upon my casual and partial reading, I commend both Pankaj and TAhmad for their effort to provide much needed understaning of the Indian religious/communal politics vis a vis the Muslims. Please keep it up!

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Re Tahmed

The crux of the whole affair, as far as I perceive were some of the pseudosecularist policies of Congress that sought to win ``Vote Bank`` by appeasing extremist elements from both religions. Unfortunately once this genie of fundamentalism is out of the bottle, it is difficult to put it back. What was even more tragic that Muslims got very little in this bargain as well as Hindus. Many Hindus failed to understand that one more temple will not eliminate their problems which are well known. Similarly by giving in to extremism, Muslims were unable to exact any promise from Congress for the real development of their community.

Since partition Indian Muslims had an ambivalent feelings towards India. They probably feel insecure from overwhelming Hindu population.

It is a well known psychological fact that a community feeling insecure, rallies behind extremist elements. You may be surprised to know that many Indian Muslims vote more on the basis of what is decreed(fatwa) by Imam from Jama Masjid or local Masjids. This was indeed the point that BJP used to instigate Hindus to polarise on the line of Muslims. You may probably also be knowing how inept politicians fool people in the name of caste among Hindus to win elections. There are very few leaders in Muslim community who realise the importance of modern education and tolerence. Muslim community by and large has alienated itself from the mainstream. I guess you will agree with me that praising Pakistani team with an open heart is one thing(that most of us do) and celebrating it in the streets or taking out processions is another. Dont you think that acts like this only serve to confirm the irartional suspicions and fears of the Hindus. Muslims might want to change their role models to Abdul Hamid, Abdul Kalam,Aziz Premji(Wipro CEO) and progress rather heed to Imams and remain backward.

When I went to school, I had a Muslim classmate Mohd Asif Khan and we had very good terms. Even now, there is an educated Muslim family beside our house close to Jajmau, and we exchange sweets of Deewali and Id. It is notable that inspite of whole Kanpur burning, Lal Bangla+Jajmau area didn`t have a single riot. I attribute it to the educated and liberal Muslims+Hindus in this area. It is only by learning to respect each other that we can live in peace and progress.

I hope that with time and economic progress, some intelligent Muslim leaders will

come forward to make people realise the imp of modern education and economic development and prevent their use as ``Vote Bank`` by selfish demagogues. Same thing can be said about Hindus.

I am disillusioned with the whole Indian politics of ``Vote Bank`` in which the corrupt politicians divide people in the name of religion, caste etc to consolidate their votes. My only hope is that people someday will realise that constructing a Mandir or Masjid is not a solution to everyday problems. And elect proper leaders who focus on development. I hope for the day when people will no longer vote along caste or religion lines, when they demand concrete work from their represenatives. In short, I hope for a day when Brutus wins and Mark Antony is vanquished.

Cheers

Pankaj #77 Your post certainly increased my knowledge of the Kanpur politics.

Based on this, I draw the following conclusions: (a) A gap was created between Hindus and Muslims in Kanpur as muslim extremists succeeded in pressuring the Congress government to allow ``muslim`` family laws to supersede the civil laws.

(b) This gap widened due to Babri mosque destruction as hindu extremists succeeded in pressuring the Congress government to look the other way.

(c) Things escalated with anti-hindu riots in Chamanganj.

(d) Indian muslims are seen (even by yourself) as having divided loyalties.

I have the following comments, based on the above understanding of the Kanpur politics:

(a) While congress may have seemed as if it was appeasing muslims or hindus, in fact it was appeasing only the extremists among them. For example, did anyone ask muslims to give a referendum on the issue of ``muslim`` laws, or for hindus to give a referendum on the issue of Babri masjid? I would bet that had a referendum been taken, muslims would have rejected the ``muslim`` laws and hindus would have rejected the storming of the Babri masjid. (I put quotes against ``muslim`` laws, since a comparison of them with the teachings of the Quran would have shown them to be quite unIslamic anyway, and simply the male chauvinistic views of some individuals.)

(b) You feel that there are many Indian muslims who have warm feelings for Pakistan. So what? The problem is not their warm feelings for Pakistan, but the hostilities between Pakistani and Indian governments. Italian-Americans can love both Italy and the US, so having warm feelings for one place or culture does not mean not having similar feelings for other places or culture.

When it comes to bringing people together, Governments are not going to be able do it - not Congress, as we have seen, nor BJP from whatever I can tell, nor any Pakistani government so far. However, the growth of the middle class and other global developments may make the Hindu-Muslims rifts as well as the Pakistan-India rifts obsolete over time.

What is important is this: In the meantime, ordinary people like you and me need to try and not allow the extremists on either side to set the agenda of conflict. Instead, we need to realize the utter stupidity of such conflicts and of the hate-mongers. The internet provides us with one way to keep light tiny beacons of peace and friendship and respect for all beliefs and cultures. Over time, I have no doubt, these beacons will join others and will one day Inshallah become a mighty light that chase away the darkness of ``jahalat`` that has enveloped this land for too long.

Rsaxena #76: I know in India a couple of wealthy NRIs are building free hospitals and schools with no assistance from the government...in fact they were asked for bribes to get permits. In any case, efforts like that are a drop in the otherwise empty bucket.

There`s a few orgs that started in the last few years and based in US that are funding the NGO projects. It may be peanuts, but the fact that it takes about a decade to stabilize such orgs and the effort and time put in by working individuals must mean something? Drops add up ...

Its another thing if we like to wallow in self-pity, and wax eloquent about our helplessness! (I do this too - may be just another subcontinental trait)

Please also read an excellent article by Dr. Tariq Rehman about the origin of different languages of Pakistan. The title of the article is ``People and Languages of Pre-Islamic Indus Valley`` at the following address:

http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/subject/peoplesandlanguages.html

Foqia, Q. Isa and the Rest:

I came across a website dealing with the history of Pakistan in some detail. It is:

http://www.geocities.com/pak_history/main.html



Are you managing this site or familiar with it? The quality of material is much better than usual textbooks variety and aside from critical of Brahmanical Hinduism, most material is pretty objective. Please visit this site and learn some areas of our history, many of us may not be familiar with. I think this website provides a prototype of the style, you are planning to write.

Some of the topics covered here are in great detail, for example, the historical origins of the people of Pakistan.

HOPE FOR PAKISTANIS,

There is hope, at least for the 30 million mohajirs, duped by the two nation theory. From deccan herald of today,

MQM leader seeks India`s support to halt Pak`s Talibanisation

NEW DELHI, Oct 1 (UNI)

Leaders of Pakistan`s Mutahida Quami Movement (MQM), on their first ever visit to India, today came up with tales of atrocities and denial of minimum political rights to the smaller nationalities by the Pakistani establishment and called for democratic restructuring of the ``failed`` political system there.

``Feudalism and fundamentalism have fashioned in Pakistan a culture which rationalises dictation and defends obedience,`` said Mr S A Tariq Mir, member of the MQM central co-ordination committee.

He said the smaller provinces in Pakistan are now faced with influx of Taliban-style fundamentalism besides drugs and small arms proliferation which could have destabilising consequences for the South Asian region. ``India cannot sit idle with an unstable Pakistan in the control of fundamentalists with their fingers on the nuclear button,`` he warned.

Mr Mir and two of his party colleagues, Mohammad Anwar, chief organiser of MQM in Britain and Europe, and Dr Khalid Maqbool Siddiqui, deputy convenor, expressed their views at a workshop today on the ``two-nation theory,`` organised by Security and Political Risk Analysis (Sapra), a think tank on security issues.

///time for the 3NT, for the real jinnahist to come forward, potentially pak punjab is for you.

Ummair,

Reference #34

This is not even a semblance of an answer, just some relevant points put down in-coherently on BJP. I may not believe in validity of all the points I have put. But, I truly believe, they are relevant. Before I put them here, are some ground rules I would like to play ļ)

1) To start with take me as a person who would vote for BJP more likely than not. You can quote me on that. There are few exceptions (individual candidates), but by and large I would vote for BJP.

2) I do not have any wish match every thing hurled at me (rightly, wrongly or vaguely). I just do not have time, energy or inclination.

3) Extention of point 2 above¡K I do not mind criticism. I will candid enough to u..I am a biased person and would be more receptive to answer some more than others (say likes of u (Ha!), Bilal, Shandana, Sadhana, Ferozks). I can just ignore some¡K... so will not mind anyone and every one just pounding on me anywhichway they can.

4) I have very scanty knowledge about Pakistan (for that matter India too). No claim of any expertize on that one. I have met few pakistanies, but just could not distinguish them from anyone else in South Asia. Same issues/problems/aspirations/propensity not to accept changes easily ¡K..

So here is Pandora¡¦s Box

„h BJP leaders (the top ones at least) have been around for ages. They have been in opposition for decades and decades without portraying themselves as just power hungry. On this count, Congress loses to them hands down.

„h The day-to-day BJPian you will see, comes from middle class who works in public/private sector, or business community. It is very difficult to portray these people as bigots. They are not. One knows them well enough personally. Plus business community has bigger priority than politics in day-to-day life, Business. Very hard for them to even be seen as anyone who will drive customer away.

„h Middle class in India (still) believes BJP and CPM (Marxist) are the people who say what they do and do what they say. It is just the consistancy. BJP has an advantage over CPM because of their freer economy stance now-a-days.

„h TNT still exists in India. There are some sects of Muslims (I cannot define them) which have joined mainstream Indian life more than most. For example, I know a sect known as Bohris. These people are typically ¡K.. soft spoken, doing well in business, have majority of their customers (buyers as well as sellers) other than muslims. These people are found mostly well educated, donate/contribute heavily in the community in which they live (schools other issues). Iranians in India (even though almost extinct) is other example. They just never will be considered as anyone but mainstream.

„h Extention to above point ¡K Whatever path Congress/CPM took for 50 years, has not proved to be a path that, was inclusive one. It has not worked very well. BJP is considered to be too nationalistic to be believed (still) to be exclusive in long run. (Kind of why not give them a try?).

„h BJP shoulders burden of power (and correspondingly charge of inaction) now. In order to do that, they just have to play by the ¡¥political¡¦ rules. They have to become like any other party . That in long (even short?) run is going to be their peril/asset. Nothing to do with BJP¡¦s idealogy.

„h Currently, there is a sense of optimism in India over all. There is a small boom in economy and most (all casts/creeds) ¡¥feel¡¦ this boom. There is work available for everyone who wants to (may not be where u want it, may not match what u want to do). Party in power gets the credit.

„h Extention of above point¡K. No economy expert me, but even I know there exists a huge undocumented economy in India. I am not talking about under-world economy but undocumented economy. That is booming too. It helps to ruling party.

„h Let us be very clear on this one. Either u get it or not (no rudity intended), Kargil was a victory for BJP in general and big one for our PM Atal Bihari Bajpai.

„h Many BJP ¡¥voters¡¦ in India believe in one people, one nation, one law, one destiny (please take out the religion ; that does not matter to a very large ¡¥fews¡¦).

„h Nobody reads BJP¡¦s web sites. Most who vote for BJP in India do not know it exists. For that matter, most do not know what is a web-site.

„h Finally, voting in election is not a very rational/logical process done by the voter. U will be simply amazed by the reason why a person may decide to vote to a particular candidate/party in India. I do not want to tell ¡¥tales¡¦. But please trust me u may land up in finding there is no ¡¥LOGIC¡¦ to it some(many)times.

Above may be just rambling. Most of it (may be all) you may know already. We can have a separate discussion on any (or all of the) points above, if u feel so. May be u have some new ones. If nothing further needed, just ignore all of it. Thanx

Bystander11

Re: RSaxena # 76

I agree with your post 100 percent!

I just wish that our leaders would admit they are flawed and our people would realize that governments are not the perfect solution to our problems.

You are right that the world laughs at us and who can blame it...we are cheap entertainment on CNN!

Ciao!

Jay#

Why don`t you donate your dead body for the cause.

I will take all measure so that it reaches dissection hall.

Your ``atma`` which is so ``Beqarar`` these days will find solace. Moreover this good deed might reincarnate you as human in your next ``Janam``.