Joint Indo-Pak School History Textbook on the Web

Assad_K #44
Its not so subjective an opinion as you think. See the two situations as so many Indians would see it:

Military dictators in Pakistan: 25+ years of rule, repeated adjustments in the Constitutional provisions solely for protecting their overlordship, for which only `fraudulent` legitimisation was sought from the general public. Am I wrong? There is also a history of harmful and divisive politics and policies pursued by military governments which many agree have to be undone now. Have any of these effects of military rule been an exertion of deliberate choice by Pakistanis which they had/have an option to reject? The same question with regard to support for Taliban. Have ordinary Pakistanis been allowed to exert at least partial choice in contending with any ill effects on their society?

Coming to BJP: They have not been in power for a full term yet at Centre and Vajpayee is essentially managing a circus of a coalition subject to other`s vagaries.
Take a simple example in real life : The Midnapore violence and the West Bengal CPM government. Even to please an important poll partner Mamata Banerjee and her party who could bring down the Central government, even with a constitutional provision Art 356, BJP is unable to dismiss the WB government, because
a. Anything unconstitutional is out of the question anyway, and when in the Opposition BJP always kicked up a fuss when Art 356 was used by the Cong I,
b. The NDA coalition doesnot have enough support in the Rajya Sabha to pass the use of Art 356 in W B.
c. Its unable to unconvince the Cong I and others to support such a dismissal.
BTW, the previous BJP government fell because they refused another poll partner`s demand for dismissing another state government.
One may or maynot see some difference here.

Sadhana

Indians turn to the BJP not because they are anti-Muslim/Pakistan but because they are a better alternative to Congress, lack a clear majority etc etc. Acceptable.

Pakistanis support the military government because of the failed `democrats`. Religious extremism rises because of the poor economics.. while the well-funded fundos can provide food and shelter to the kids they take in. Pakistan supports the Taliban because it provides a `friendly` neighbour to the border.. not the friendliest neighbour possible, but not hostile as the Northern Alliance was. Acceptable? Nahhh.. we`re just evil.

mythbreaker #39 you write: ``32% of polled votes doesn`t represent the 100 billion Indians.``

Last time I checked the population of India was merely one billion. You people have been very busy...

YLH ZINDABAD,

Pakistan has serious problems with history which the the authors appear to be unaware. Include YLH in the team, here is his quote. Before attacking the indian history, can you two fix up the Jinnah speach.

///thus spake ylh,

Religion and Politics should not be mixed`` seems to be an Echo of the youthful Jinnah in 1920 advocating against the Khilafat Movement and the Non cooperation movement,and of an older Jinnah who in 1947 said

``You may belong to any religion caste or creed, that has nothing to do with the business of the state``

And this brings me to the sad state of affairs in History writing in Pakistan. Pakistani History has altered the same speech like this ...

(Altered version)

``You may belong to any religion caste or creed, that has nothing to do with the fundamental principle that you are equal citizens of one state.``

//talks a historical volume about the educated of pakistan.

ARABISATION,

Instead of worrying about the portrayal of muslims in indian books, if the authors have any pride in pakistan they should worry about the arabisation of pakistan. After faisalabads and x bin Y of pakistan, here is a report about pressure to learn the arabic. Can you two do something about it, or u are part of the scheme. Leave TNT alone, leave the indian muslims alone, or if you really want, join the jihadists. From nation of today,

Islamiat in Matric

I want to draw the attention of the Punjab Textbook Board (PTBB) Chairman to a very serious problem that is being faced by the school students, i.e. change in syllabus of Islamiat for Matric session 2000 onward.

I have witnessed children crying because they are unable to understand anything. Teachers, as usual, are least bothered about it as they just go through the text book. In fact, teachers themselves do not know how to teach this particular course.

The Suras included in Matric are Sura Tuba; Sura Infaal, Sura Ihzab and Sura Mum-thanna. Translation of each and every Ayat of these Sura(s) and in addition five chapters wholly in Arabic with Arabic grammar are parts of this course.

Translation of Holy Quran with its exact meaning is not a child`s play, specially for the people whose language is not Arabic. How can you expect from students aged 13-15 to translate the Holy Quran and understand the Arabic grammar.

Matric is the first most important event in a student`s life and a child who also has to study eight more subjects, how can he spare 2-3 hours daily to understand Arabic language.

///can you write a book on arabic for urdu readers. I have a check in the mail for this task.

TNT THINKING,

This project is a typical example of the TNT thinking that permeates every aspect of the pak society. OK, moghuls and ghouri are portrayed as villains in the indian history books. It is of interest to pakistan because under the TNT, pakistan is the custodian of every thing muslim in india. To correct the books, it has to have pakistan.

Take it easy the academics, trying make a few quids on TNT, moghuls and all that is about are in indian history, you chaps have no claim to anything muslim in india today. TNT is dead as far as india is concerned, you have pakistan. Leave the history and indian muslim history to indians.

Is it not good enough that under jihadic TNT, pakistanis are crossing to india to kill, now under the academic jihad you want attack the history books. Leave the indian muslims and their history alone, if you are looking to improve the pak balance of payments, check is in the mail.

You have problems with pak text books, your TNT idea of the book and your unawareness of it is the proof of the bias of the pak books. If you have problems with pak books, change it, leave the joint indo-pak idea. Leave the situation as it is, only one joint activity under white flag takes place at LOC, stop that before you think of another.

Umairr:

Some of my answer is already explained in Shankars post.

The reason for BJP coming into power is not that every Indian believes their version of history.I will try to give some of the reasons.

Congress Party

Congress is the main reason for the raise of many political parties not just BJP. Congress was in power at centre and most of the states for atleast 35 yrs.But even after 35 yrs of independence poverty increased instead of decreasing. Congress has this culture of psychofancy( not sure of the spelling hope u will understand).Most of congress leaders behaves like he is the king infront of people and when it comes to Nehru family, they will start touching the feet anyone from that family, praising lavishly without any reason etc.They went onto declaring ``Indira is India and India is Indira``. If you goto any part of India you will see Gandhi family names for all the important places sidelining all the great other leaders.Sometime back they changed the name of Connaught place in delhi to Rajiv place or some thing like that.I am just giving some petty examples.This list will go on.

Corruption in congress is rampant.They used article 356 for their political ends without any reason.Alienated common people with their misrule for 35 yrs. Then slowly regional parties started gaining strength in south with some popular leaders at the front(mainly cine actors).People who are fed up with congress, immedialtely elected the newly formed parties.Communists came into power in Kerala.DMK in Tamilnadu,TDP in Andhra, Hegde in Karnataka.But in north there was no other political party to choose for the people. Then came the BJP.

Reasons for people voting BJP:

1. As i said alternative to Congress.

2. History: You may agree or not, North Indians suffered mostly during Muslim Invasions for 1000 yrs.There were numerous temples destroyed.I cannot say anything about Babri mosque as iam not sure if there was really a temple.Even some muslim historians agree on that(not on Babri but temple destructions). BJP fully exploited that .They might have exaggerated some of the history.But there was some truth to it.Some people readily believed that.

3. Kashmir: Kashmiri terrorism also gave people a reason to vote for BJP.Congress and Janata Dal were always soft on Muslim fundamentalism.They thought BJP will be more strict in dealing with the terrorists.

4. Partition: Some of the Hindu Indians have this fear that with the raising of Muslim population, some day they will ask for another partition which they already did once.BJP appealed to this section of people by declaring that they will impose Unifor civil code.Most of the people in this category think that rapid growth in muslim population is due to multiple wifes for muslim men.

5. Leaders: Most of the leaders in BJP are very well educated. These leaders attracted the educated middle class people.The other parties in north have leaders like Laloo,Mulayam,Mayavati etc who doesn`t have any appeal among middle class educated families.

Even with all these reasons BJP got only 32% of polled votes and it is not ruling on its own.Its a coalition govt. 32% of polled votes doesn`t represent the 100 billion Indians.

I hope i put my answer in a readable way.

Umairr,

{{However, India seems to be moving in the opposite direction under the BJP, now; perhaps not economically, but socially. Do you think the history books of India are going to move in the same direction (assuming they present a correct version of Indian history now)? }}

I certainly think the BJP is going to try to change history books. I`d like to believe they are`nt going to be successful. India`s minority is sizable & muslims do have political clout. Besides, I think most hindus tend to be on the moderate side of the political spectrum. The press is also a decent watchdog. If they take it too far, I`m hoping there will be a backlash. Even the BJP realises that they cannot completely alienate the minorities, especially the muslims.

The wild card here is Pakistan. Ironically, anti-Pakistan backlash is what helps the BJP the most. Thats why I think they dont want to talk to Pakistan. The more Indians feel that Pakistan is a trouble maker, the more they rally behind the BJP.

Re Umair #34

Well, somebody other than those RSS nuts in khakis who do early morning exercises with dandas who has read the BJP version of India`s future etc.

If BJP hasn`t kept winning elections. they have been in power only for the last 3 years or so, and that too in coalitons. They`ve won far from a governing majority and so have had to deal with other regional parties.

The primary reason for their ascendance is the gross mismanagement by the Congress which has degenerated into a family unit for the Nehru clan. In the meanwhile, they`ve done a few things correctly and the economy has been getting better the same time. So, their election victories have more to do with economic satisfaction. Perhaps, their last victory could directly be attributed to that brave pearl harbour stroke of Musharaf. The stupid nuclear halo was wearing off and just as Indians were starting to evaluate the elections as a pocketbook issue comes this giant gift from across the border.

You state...``according to the BJP`s view of Indian history, Muslims were savages, and the cause of the current and past problems of India...`` but the day they start teaching this in schools will never, ever come. Can you say that of Pakistan?

The BJP even has a few, you might say, token muslim leaders. Can you say that of any Pakistani party?

Lets say that there was to be an economic downturn in the next year or two. The BJP would be voted out and someone voted in. And because the military reports to the President, that minimizes the possibility of a coup, either by the military or the ruling party. Our checks and balances may not be perfect, but they have been given some time and oxygen to evolve into something people can count on. Time after time. Once again, can you say that of your country?

shankar: #22: Thanks for your reply. Very balanced and objective, as usual.

From your reply, one gets the feeling that most Indians do not agree with the ideologies of the BJP. However, the BJP has, ``delivered and produced`` economically, and is thus becoming popular. Also Congress-I is now down in the dumps, so the BJP has no opposition, apart from a coalition of smaller parties. So even though many Indians may not agree with the BJP philosophy, they do agree with many of the governmental policies the BJP is following. Hence its popularity.

Perhaps the above explains the odd situation of a fundamentalist and extremist religious party (this is not an attempt to denounce the BJP; it is just my own evaluation of the party`s philosophy, after going through their own literature) coming into power within the framework of a secular constitution, i.e. most Indians prefer the cultural ideals of Congress-I, but prefer the ecomonic and political capabilities of the BJP. And they are now giving preference to the later over the former.

With regards to this article, this raises an intersting question: Much has been written about the distorted view of history presented in Pakistani textbooks by Pakistani writers on Chowk. I agree with quite a bit of it; however I think the problem has been overdone. If one sentence out a hundred is distorted, then one needs to look at the other 99 correct sentences also, instead of repeatedly highlighting the wrong sentence. Then again, I bunked many of my Pakistan Studies classes, so I am not the most compotent authority on this subject.

I don`t think Pakistani youngsters in government schools are being brainwashed to hate Indians or anyone else. If that were the case, then they wouldn`t buy Indian movies or cassettes. These sell by the millions, even in the remotest part of Pakistan. They almost put the Pakistani movie and music industry out of business, amongst school-aged children.

There is, of course, a problem of distorted history. Blown out of proportion on Chowk, though it maybe, it does exist. Because of this, there seems to be an interest in the Pakistani intelligensia to right the distorted sentences. This is quite a healthy sign, in my opinion, i.e get an accurate version of history, from an incorrect one.

The BJP`s view of Indian history seems distorted and very biased to me also (although history is not my area or expertise, so it may well be an accurate view). If one is to believe the statements from Indians on this site, then the current history curriculum in Indian schools is quite accurate, and is different from the BJP`s views. However, if the BJP is the most popular party (for whatever reasons), and continues to gain popularity, then sooner or later, will it not attempt to introduce its own version of Indian history into the school curriculum, and the Indian culture, as well? And if one is to believe that Indian history books are currently accurate, then will India not be moving from an accurate version of history towards an inaccurate version?

I read the following in this regard:

``The initiative Vajpayee has taken by having Laxman to retrieve the ground, which Vajpayee had lost in his bid to placate the hard-liners, is welcome. But this is not enough. He has to save so many fields from getting Hinduised. His priority should be education, which is from being saffronised by Human Resources Development Minister Murli Manohar Joshi with a vengeance. His aim is to rewrite history. He has appointed in many top institutions such persons who have no credentials except their pro-Hindutva leanings.`` (Kuldip Nayyar, Nation: Pakistan).

I have always felt that, considering the number of minorities in India, India had done a pretty good job of keeping everyone under one umbrella (at least as good a job as any other third world country could have done). However, India seems to be moving in the opposite direction under the BJP, now; perhaps not economically, but socially. Do you think the history books of India are going to move in the same direction (assuming they present a correct version of Indian history now)?

mythbreaker: #19:``Question: Why do the mountain ranges bordering Pakistan and Afghanistan are called Hindu Kush mountains.(any specific meaning for the word Hindu Kush).``

This is what I found at brittanica.com:

The name Hindu Kush derives from the Arabic for ``Mountains of India.`` Its earliest known usage occurs on a map published about AD 1000. (Brittanica.com)

mythbreaker: #19: Thanks for the reply. I think perhaps I did not state my question correctly.

I was not trying to state that the Indian version of the South Asian history is inaccurate. That is why I stated in my previous reply that it may well be accurate. I also, on principle, do not support the conquest of India by the Muslim kings. Since I do not think any group has a right to force their rule on another group, against the later`s wishes.

The question I was asking was many, if not most, Indians seem convinced that their history books present a very accurate picture of the history of India. Almost all the Indian contributors on Chowk, seem to either hate the BJP (and thus do not support its version of Indian history), or try to point out that the BJP version of India`s future or history is not the way it comes out from the BJP`s literature. The later I do not believe, since the BJP produces its own literature and website.

It seems like most Indians on Chowk believe the BJP is just a passing phenomenon, and the BJP`s historical views and cultural views only appeal to a small group of Indians. This is the part I do not understand. If BJP`s historical and cultural views are not supported by a great number of Indians, then how does the BJP keep winning elections. One would have to think that the BJP has the support of the largest single group of Indians, by far. If that is the case, then this group must also support BJP`s view of history. And according to the BJP`s view of Indian history, Muslims were savages, and the cause of the current and past problems of India. In fact the BJP website indicates that South Asian Muslims are actually Hindus, and will eventually convert back to Hinduism.

So once again I ask the question, how can someone state, ``The BJP version of history is not widespread and cannot become widespread`` when so many non-Chowk Indians are voting for the BJP. Obviously, the largest voting group in India seems to believe in the BJP`s version of Indian history. It already seems to be the most widespread version in India.

An admirable effort. I wish all the best for the the historians tackling this huge job. There should be similar initiatives between academics from India and those from Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapur, Combodia, China, etc. so that a balanced version of cultural/social interactions in this region can be presented for children. This would be especially helpful for children in regions which aren`t bordering Pakistan but are closer to, for example,Thailand physically and culturally.

Ashish

re: Umairr

BJP`s vote share is around 20% (30% among men, 10% among women). Because of the multicornered nature of electoral contests in most areas this is enough for them to win 180 seats in parliament. Their vote share is less than that of the Indian National Congress but the Congress vote is spread out all over India and hence the Congress has 140 seats. BJP`s support is concentrated in the North. Both, therefore need to form coalition governments if they are to come to power. Something that the Congress is less willing to do. Hope this explains why it is possible for many interacters here to have nothing to do with the BJP. Within the BJP there are many divergent trends. The person who created their website belongs to one vocal (though not necessarily influential) section. The main reason for middle class support for the BJP is the ineffectiveness of the Congress and other parties in tackling issues of common concern. The BJP has taken the space vacated by the Congress in states like my home state of Madhya Pradesh which has almost no communal problems. The congress strongmen like VC & SC Shukla (brothers) and Arjun Singh (involved in a lottery scandal) have a firm grip on the party in MP. In contrast the BJP has no big entrenched leaders in MP. Hence their success as also the recent successess of the BSP (Bahujan Samaj Party which is mainly the party of the backward classes). The issues in MP are very different from those in the north. A lot of media attention is given to UP, Bihar and other northern and some vocal southern states like Tamil Nadu. That`s why most people are unaware of the political goings on in other parts of India. For perspective, MP is larger than Germany in area and is about 85% of Germany in population. Another thing to remember would be that the state has been alternating between the Congress and the BJP in the past few elections.

I have used the example of MP as it has been mentioned in the article. The reason why history textbooks are being manipulated by certain sections of the BJP there is that it is such a low priority issue there. Even the media discovered it after it was done. I believe now that the Congress is in power there they have corrected it unless those idiots are involved in infighting and jockeying for power. As for Pakistan it doesn`t figure in any discourse in MP. It is too far for people to be bothered. Bangladesh is much closer though even that is around 650 kms from the eastern border of MP. Nepal is somewhat closer. Most people aren`t aware of their existence either. This is also the reason for my concern about too many India-Pakistan issues dominating the media. Why create a problem where none exists?

mythbreaker #re 19

The place in Karnataka you are talking about is perhaps Hampi, the capital of the Vijaynagara empire. It was destroyed by the joint army of the sultans of Bijapur,Gulbarga,Ahmadnagar and Golconda who earlier comprised the Bahamani kingdom.

The place is a real marvel. I spent 2 days there and I had a feeling akin to ``Lost Horizon`` by James Hilton.

The ruins present a very sorry picture. One finds huge 15 feet idols of Ganesha with stomach chopped off. Another huge idol of Narasimha about 15 feet again, whose arms and nose have been severed. All the gopurams have a string of small idols of apsaras offering flowers..with no heads.

There are a lot more...........

Hampi is the testimony to the severity and brutality that was involved in the massacre and loot that lasted for 6 months. A must see place.



Histroy ought to be written without any prejudice. Infact history should be more self-critical so we can learn from it. It is also a sign of confidence. I don`t see any point in a joint venture of South Asian History unless it aims to propagate harmony. If harmony is the aim then why chose history of two 53 year old nations. Anybody can come out with truth, who is stopping it from being published. This effort looks more like the Lahore bus, lot on hype less on substance.



Satyameva Jayate

Pullu

RE: manoj

... it is important to see how religious minorities fare in the so called `Islamic republics` of today. Can u build a temple in Saudi

Arabia or worship your god?

Being a minority in India/Pak is intrinsically different from being an expatriate in the Middle East. I think you are confusing the issue here. As an expat - you do not have any voting rights, cannot own property/business without the help of a local sponsor and at the end of your stay you have to return to your own country of birth. This - i suspect - has more to do with Arabs protecting their interests against emmigrants rather than their religious convictions.

What kind of 3rd rate treatment the Pakis get in the Arab lands is seen to be believed.

regarding 3rd rate treatment - it is the same that is mete`d out to all expats - Indians included.

...many of the militants killed in kashmir call themselves `Abu ....` to sound Arabic.

kindly get off it!

manoj #20: you, sir, are a fake. The proof is in your post itself: You write ``J is for jalim ( read sikh with a photo to boot)``: No one in Pakistan says jalim. The word used is Zalim. Z is pronounced like J by other people in the sub-continent, not by those in Pakistan.

So, there can be no Pakistani publication. Isnt there enough misery among the poor people of the sub-continent that extremists like you have to come in and try to fan hatreds and distrusts by spreading lies?