Joint Indo-Pak School History Textbook on the Web

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never too late ...

tahmed & cheryam - congratulations on the most civilised, decent, rational miaow-fight ever.

very humbling but have to admit it almost made me puke : )

I believe the authors decided to take a nap after lunch (in an earlier post here I had asked them whether they had gone to lunch after writing their piece, and got no response).

I guess we can give up on this article and move our discussion elsewhere. Good exchanging posts with you on this article, and look forward to seeing your posts elsewhere on Chowk.

Tahmed, you are welcome. I agree what you say. I have mentioned it earlier that during Kargil war (then I did not know of Chowk, I used to visit a site for Indian soldiers,there I saw some vicious attack on Indian soldiers from some Pakistanis. And I was loosing faith on my generally tolerant view on humanity, when an article by Ikbal Khan at Rediff (with hyperlink to Chowk, I believe) brought my belief back. I realise again that there are good and bad people in every society, country, religion. There are people who will give away everything for peace, and my trust on my Pakistani friends restored again. That article meant a lot to me, and it was all because of internet.

Authors, I am curious. Is there any positive build up in your project? We have to work fast, see how middle-east is burning again because of this mistrust. We really do not have much time to waste.

Regards

cheraym.

cheraym #135

Thanks for your kind response. My post may have read a bit harsh, and I appreciate that rather than taking offense you chose to provide an explanation.

While the internet does make posts seem a bit cold, I think there is also the great beauty of the internet insofar as it provides strangers to discuss things that one would normally not discuss with anyone other than a close friend in real life. In fact, even with most friends in real life, one often gets involved in small talk, entertainment, and so on rather than on significant issues that we should also be concerned about. As such, one can actually build a better understanding on such issues with people one will never meet in real life, than with friends and relations.

So, I am really glad we have people like you on chowk who contribute to the postive aspects of internet discussions and in reading posts are able to allow for the fact that internet messages sound harsher than intended.

Best Regards to you too.

Dear Tahmed:

I guess you did not like my line of writing to Pankaj. You are correct that all the university rankings are readily available, but you have to still do that exercise. It does not really matter where I come from, what is my background to majority of the people in Chowk, except my views in different issues (again, this is my opinion). Of course, your views shape up to some extent on the basis of who you are. Since as a fellow IITan from the same department, Pankaj was curious, I thought I will give him some information. Email and internet can be very impersonal, as you may write something with some intention and it reflects something else!

Hope I did not sound too proud since I know my limitations and consider myself a lifelong student. That is why people like Sameer, Bahmad inspire me. I like your touch of humanity also. By the way, we are digressing from the issue in hand.

Regards

cheraym

The ‘Other’ as outsider

Shereen Ratnagar

Let us return to the ``glory-continuity-roots`` paradigm mentioned in the first part of this article (Aryan-Harappan myth, October 11). Archaeologists agree that the Harappan script went out of use; that instead of the shallow street drains of Mohenjodaro, the towns of UP and Bihar in the time of the Buddha had more efficient sewage in the form of vertical ring ``wells`` and jars; that the network of land routes and sea trade serving the Harappan region terminated with the civilisation and new routes fell in place.

Even so, some suggest that Harappan traditions of bead-making still survive in the town of Khambhat. This, even though the modern industry utilises wage labour, iron pikes, diamond drills, and other elements absent in the bronze age, and even though no post-Harappan groups made the very long and thin red carnelian beads in which the Harappan beadmaker excelled. (The beads of later cultures were much smaller in size.)

Again, is it not hard to accept that the modern Sindhi ox-cart is a survival from Harappan times, if this kind of ox-cart is not continuously attested through all the centuries between these two periods? Tradition is not something that alternately freezes and thaws. Perhaps in a certain environment, modern cart-makers used similar raw materials and faced similar kinds of technological constraints as did the Harappans.

Much that has been said about proto-Hindu deities and practices in Harappan religion, too, originates with John Marshall, who, in the Twenties and Thirties, had no frame of reference other than ‘Hinduism’ in which to comprehend this newly discovered culture; in any case he did not give due attention to the work of Bhandarkar and misunderstood the character of certain Vedic deities. Yet, for decades scholars — and certainly this does not include ‘fascists’ alone — have uncritically followed his ideas on religious survivals from Harappan times.

There were abandonments of several Harappan villages, and of all the major cities, around 1800 BC, and it is of interest that, unlike the ancient Gangetic towns, the great Harappan cities never attracted settlement thereafter. Large-scale migration and resettlement points to the break-up/schism/fission and consequent re-forming of communities. This and the decline of State organisation would explain at least partly why the craft and writing traditions did not endure.

We are predisposed to the ‘continuity-roots’ idea because there is an old intellectual tradition that opposed the traditional and spiritual East steeped in religion, on the one hand, to the dynamic, technological, and rational West on the other. This is a European thought in origin, to which Indian academia has also been prone. Moreover, ‘it has always been so’ becomes a defence of hooliganism during the Ganapati immersion. This brings us to the crux of the issue.

Fundamentalism, whatever its colour, seeks continuities with a text or stage of development of a religion that is perceived to be the original stage. (In the case of the fundamentalist State of Pakistan, of course, it was essential to say that the great civilisation of Mohenjo-daro came to an end because the people had worshipped false gods.)

Movements that target groups within society as enemies require unquestioning allegiance. If the roots of the practice of Sati, or of caste divisions, lie in the remotest past, it is not easy to challenge them — and they become an aspect of being Indian. If Hinduism has been practised in this land since ‘time immemorial’, the ground is prepared to present the Muslim as the ‘Other’ outsider. The trend of singling out periods of the past for public attention, then, can in one sense be explained as Hindutva’s need for its ‘givens’, its unquestionable truths.

A very dangerous set of ideas follows from this kind of thinking, which is to ascribe actions, values, or beliefs, when convenient, to ‘Indianness’. We say that there is corruption not because we know we can get away with it, but because we are Indian. It is claimed that certain kinds of behaviour are ‘in the blood’ of Brahmins, others ‘in the genes’ of lower caste people.

Such thinking may well be fuelled by recent trends in which the study in America of Harappan and post-Harappan skulls and skeletons is being uncritically linked with questions of language (Aryans, for sure!) and even notions of identity. At Independence, we rejected the barbaric British notion that people of the ‘criminal tribes’ were born criminal — are we now veering back to such thinking?

It is essential to teach students of archaeology the social sciences of anthropology, history, and sociology, so that they can be equipped to study cultures other than their own, and cease to refer all their discoveries forward to the present.

But it is also reassuring that continuous vocal opposition over the last few years has not fallen on deaf ears. The new Harappan gallery in the National Museum has been set up with professional skill and displays little saffron garbage even if some Sacred Truths about continuity of religious practices still linger.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/121000/detOPI02.asp

Thanks, Q. Isa and Foqia, for the noble idea and sharing it with us. I hope to see your project succeeding and bearing fruits not in too distant future. Pankaj, I am impressed with your dedication, knowledge and desire to contribute positively. You are much smarter than what I was at 22. I wish you a bright, happy and successful future. I will be glad to interact again with you, hopefully, at some front page article.

Regards,

sameer

cheraym #130 you write: ``you should know what is the best school for Chem engg in US (keep it to yourself if you have guessed it correctly). ``

I thought they taught the value of sharing as the first step in education in kindergarten. Hopefully, you will find an elective on this at the university and so catch up. Incidentally, info on the best universities in the US is readily available to anyone interested on the internet, magazines.

SameerJB: Thanks for the interesting discussion on the possible relationship between the Gujjar tribes with the Khazar people. I remember reading a Russian author`s book on a history of the people of the sub-continent the same thing: that the Gujjars are descendents of a Scythian people who came to the sub-continent around the 5th century BC.

I also remember seeing a Discovery channel (?) documentary where they discussed certain customs of the Pathans and made a case for them being in fact the lost 13th tribe Israelis.

I am not sure how much scholarship has gone into such studies, and how much speculation. Any opinions?

SameerJB

I like the way you approach the problems. I searched and went through one of your previous article on Game theory and its applications. Infact I had this idea of combining Game Theory with ``Generalised Perception of Scarcity`` which is a psychological concept(for cherayam, learned from Lilavati Krishnan in Psychology) to propose a set of hypothesis that can possibly explain much of the social behavior of the people of the economical scarcity hit societies like subcontinental ones. May be some day when I get enough time I will write a monograph on this subject.

In the discussions that we carry out here in chowk, problems arise because we fail to identify and define problems accurately. Every one gives the solution based on his own understanding of the problem and so the different solutiona that we get are not of the same problem but different problems. A problem well defined is problem half done. Even after the problem is defined the responses of the people are not based on a critical analysis rather driven by emotions, subjective prejudices, or the set opinions/rules inherited from their immediate society. Lets say an objective analysis is done and people converge on different solutions. This may be because of

1. open ended nature of many social problems

2. The models that are used for analysis are different or do not properly account for certain variables.

3. Sufficient reliable data for analysis is not available.

4. Certain irrational factors like emotions come into play

We can appreciate such issues if we agree to the non linear aspect of the problems in which multiple solutions may exist. Intelligent people who use such an approach towards problems will definitely respect the people having alternative solutions in such cases.

Your remark about boundary conditions is very apprpriate. Infact for a successful problem solving, one needs to define problem first, then determine the proper rules of nature applicable to that problem(like differential equations which are nothing but rules of nature). In the final phase it is absolutely necessary to determine proper domain( or boundary conditions) in which the rules are applicable and do an integration to determine the solution. I love discussing with people who follow such an approach.

Cheers

Dear Sameer and Pankaj:

I should not lead the discussion away from the article concerned as per the directive of chowk (and rightly so), but I could not resist my temptation to reply to Sameers` brilliant expression of a great scholarly mind. I wish I was so well read as you are, Sameer. I like the way you have extrapolated the concept of limit and boundary conditions. I am waiting for the day when my son grows up little bit more and when I have more time after my daily chores both at U and home.

Pankaj, I can not give away much information about myself for obvious reasons. As you are in US and in Chem engg, you should know what is the best school for Chem engg in US (keep it to yourself if you have guessed it correctly). I was fortunate enough to do graduate study there, and now after couple of post-docs, I have been in my current position in a relatively good school for the last five years somewhere in this world. But I do have a close tie with IITK, and work with SKG in optimization area. My specialization is in gas-soild separation, CFD, and process development for air water cleaning. Have you developed your own code for simulating flow through porous media? I am more than a decade older than you, and yes I still cherish the IIT days, I was in GH.

Regards

cheraym

Pankaj and Cheraym: Thanks for the thoughtfulness and guessing about my background. Actually, on various occasions I have mentioned about my extensive background in natural sciences, chemistry to be exact. My only teaching experience comes from being TA during my graduate studies. I have always been fascinated with the application of scientific and logical paradigms to interpret non-scientific issues. Actually science itself be worthless, if it is not used properly in life. Reading books by authors like, Carl Sagan, Linus Pauling, Richard Dawkins, Freeman Dyson, Stephen Hawkins, Issac Asimov and others really help in understanding many non-scientific aspects of life.

The use of vocabulary like boundary conditions or setting the limits is necessary to understand almost everything except few boundless things like imagination or spirituality. What would be the case if we do not have boundaries or limits? Can Pakistan win any cricket match, if boundaries for Pakistani team are set farther than the opponents? Similarly certain variables, like empires’ mindset will have lot more contribution to the outcome than spectators, weather conditions. Just as the solutions of integrated equations in calculus can lead to different results depending on the boundary conditions, changing the limits in religious matters would lead to varied results, failed expectations and unpleasant consequences with certain variables like classical interpretation, history of Islamic empires with extensive use of brutalities, madrassa and jihadi culture adversely effecting the outcome. Not only religions but also the physical laws will fail by changing boundary condition, for example, the limits of gravity and speed of light. In order to not have unpleasant outcome, the importance of negative variables have to be reduced to a level where they could be dropped out of the equation without significantly changing the desirable result. Jesus was setting the limit when he said about taxes, “give to Romans what is theirs and give to God what is His”. Western concept of separation of Church and State is also a step in this direction of setting the limits.

In order for religions to be beneficial and alive, they must be constantly evolving with the changing conditions. There must constantly undergo the process of reformation and reformulation. Hinduism would have been lot more successful worldwide, had they eliminated caste system and sati rituals early on. Islam would have also been lot more successful by decreasing the stress on time consuming rituals, dependency on Arabic language and culture and abolition of slavery ahead of western civilization. There was no need to interpret all events and physical laws in the light of religion. It did not benefit Islam when Sheik Abdel Aziz Bin Baz gave fatwas about everything and a well-respected Pakistani religious scholar interpreted higher density of water at 4 degrees Celsius so that sea life could survive under ice covered lakes and seas.

Religions are not panacea; they are part of the overall culture and their limitations in individual life as well as in the society as a whole must be well understood. Do not expect things which religion are not equipped to provide. Over-expectation would lead to disappointment, wasted time, resources and energies.

Krashid: I do understand chemistry quite well and the complex and enormous source of potential benefits found in a number of herbs, shrubs and trees. Many of them have been found very useful, both in labs and in the extended human experience. Again, there are limits to their efficacy and importance, especially when suffering from some serious illnesses. After all, the extension of life expectancy and general health in the developed nations owes it to the practices of modern medicine, among other factors.

temporal: pehle Khuda phir Rasool—pehle limitless phir conditional—pehle macroanalysis phir microanalysis—pehle generalized phir reductionism—pehle basics phir details (Sharia, Fiqah, Hadees, Organized Religions, Imam, Mullahs are details to me) and my favorite would be pehle taleem phir tafheem. Thus pehle insaan phir mussalman.

From almost b sameer to rms temporal….

Tahmed: I am what in urdu is called “kitabi keera”. I have read Arthur Koestler’s “Thirteenth Tribe” although I was familiar with the history much before the book came out. The European historians are not as restrained as US historians, when it comes to writing what they believe is the case. In the USA authors do not like to stir any such controversy which involves Jewish people. I am responding at this board because it has some relevance to our history also.

It is widely believed that a tribe named Khazars converted en-masse to Judaism in eleventh century. Khazars belonged to a class of people termed Scythians by historians. Scythians were a mixture of Turkic-Altai-East European people dominating the Eurasian steppes following Aryan migrations(?). Huns were on the eastern side and Khazars on the western side of this vast land mass. Now it gets intersting. Soon after Alexander the Great’s invasion of India, Scythians started pouring into India in waves and established many dynasties in northwest India (currently Pakistan) until the seventh century of current era. In local vernaculars, they are called Saka dynasties. First wave entering India was from western steppes, establishing Kushan dynasty with famous Buddhist King Kanishka were none other than Khazars. Remember this happened around 100 BC-100 AD while the conversion to Judaism took place around 1100 AD. It is widely believed among desi historians that the word Gujjars arose from word Khazars ( although some believe, it came from words gao and char; people who raise cows) and that Gujjars are the descendants of Khazars. Similarly, Hazara is also believed to be Khazara or Khazaria originally. A large number of Gujjars are still living in Hazara district of Pakistan. The city of Gujrat and Gujranwala as well as Indian state of Gujrat owe their origins to Gujjars. Do you find any similarity between Ashk-e-nazi Jews and Gujju Patels? Ever been to any number of shops named Patel Brothers? (Just kidding)

Jats are generally believed to be the descendants( in parts) of later Scythian waves and Rajputs and many Pathan tribes from the last wave of white Huns. Interesting suff?

This is actually a portion of our history, to which little disagreement between Indian and pakistani historians is expected.

Its a wonderful idea to write a joint history textbook.We have to launch a struggle against the dictum that all histories are national histories.It is ironical that the Hindu India and theIslamic Pakistan have chosen to partition what is of necessity and for a large part a shared history.

I am familiar with the works of Ayesha Jalal,Mubarak Ali, Anil Sethi and Krishna Kumar and I believe they will do a good job.

I have taught modern history at Delhi University and would love to participate in this collective endeavour in whatever capacity I can.

With best Wishes for a noble cause.

Cherayam

Yeah and I miss those peacocks too. BTW I used to live in Hall 2 F-bot Room 162. I will never forget my days in IITK. Those nightouts before Chem101, bulla and tulla throughout the night, following girls in Antaragni and most of all, passion of Galaxy(remember gaali contests between Hall2 and 3 during Galaxy). Those moments are unforgettable, permanently itched in memory.

Cheers

Dear Cherayam

C`mon you are also an IITian it seems. So nice to hear from you. You are right on both counts, I took D.N. Saraf`s course. He taught us Heat transfer. And I will never forget him `coz he gave a midsem in which I scored 1/30 and the average was 2.6/30. That was my all time lowest. Of Course I cracked end sem big time and got an A. S.K.G was indeed out for a sabbatical to Wisconsin. These days Ashutosh Sharma is doing some great work in Colloids and Interfacial Science. BTW are you also a Chemineer, if yes , which batch. Where are you now, and what are you doing. I am doing my MS here and plan to go for MBA afterwards. I am presently working on modeling and simulation of multiphase flow through naturally fractured porous media. Thanx again for enquiring.

Cheers

Pankaj, did you take SKG and DN Saraf`s courses? They are my all time favorites. SKG was out for sabbatical (Wisconsin and NUS)probably last half of your study? Am I correct? Chowk has the maximum entropy, what do you think? Are you doing Ph.D now or MS? I think your guess on Sameer is probably correct.

Best wishes for your study. You show more maturity for a 22 year old! and I love Kanpur, specially those peacocks in the IIT campus.

Sameer and Tahmed

Thanx Tahmed. Actually I was tickled by the use of words like entropy and boundary conditions by Sameer in explaining social concepts. Well it is my educated guess that Sameer must be either from engineering/science or a student of science(no one is a master in science:)). But I would bet on his being a Professor of natural sciences. In his last post he talks about complex problems demanding complex solutions and taking into account multidimensional aspects of a problem. This is exactly scientific lingo. You are definitely a sort of compassionate guy with a humanitarian attitude and it is a pleasure to talk with you. However I could not guess your profession. About myself, I am relatively new to chowk. As you might have guessed, I am a student of Chemical engg.. I am 22, did my bachelor`s from IIT Kanpur(remember Kanpur) and ended up here in America last year. There are some people whose posts I like to read like you people. You people provide me a new insight into the old problems.

Cheers

dear krashid

misinformed post!!! huh. Would appreciate a point wise rebuttal.

history bhool gaye kya and truth is bitter and it hurts.

Sameer: tahmad: Pankaj:

(Been following your interesting and level headed posts.)

As Mahajizardeh said: ‘Pehlay Khuda phir Rasool: pehlay insaan phir musalmaan’ ... this approach can and should be applied to any and all faiths or ideologies with appropriate word changes ..... ‘insaan’ remaining unchanged.

Re Muslims and Hindus came across this recently:

Yahan tasbeeh ka halqaa wahaaN zannar ka phanda
Aseeri laazmi hay mazhab-e-shaikh-o-brahmin maiN.

regards,

temporal

PS: For you Sameer, I`will sign off as rms temporal. That shall remain between us ;)

SameerJB#117/Pankaj#116: First, thanks SameerJB for taking the trouble of explaining what you meant by boundary conditions. I was a bit curious since Pankaj had mentioned the intellectual beauty of this engineering concept - looked up the internet to learn a bit about it and ran into some heavy duty equations and all I have understood so far is that in engineering they have to do with different arcs that join two points. Anyway, enough of my problems ... :-)

On the business of the Mullahs and Mahants (the latter, I assume, being the Hindu-version of the Mullah): I agree with you and Pankaj. We dont need any brokers between the individual and God.

Manoj#

J for ``Jahil``.

Misinformed post.

I have a question for you. If you don`t kill Muslims in mosques in India, where do you kill them. I thought that was the only place for Muslims to be killed. I forgot, you demolish mosques, so you have to find some other place to kill them.

Sameer JB #117

Can you tell me your perspective on many people`s choice of natural herbs as compared to taking medicine by physicians.

Many factors come into play, including desire of physicians to extract money, desire of drug companies to extract most profits, contempt towards literate by illiterate. There will be many other factors.

What is truth. Are the UNO resolution truth and demonstrate the will of nations. Then why some resolutions are implemented and some not.

Was Colonialism justified because it was advanced and caused the condition of people colonized to be improved or war against colonialism justified.

The truth is ones perspective except in science perhaps.

Tahmed321 and Pankaj: Boundary conditions of the self simply means within the limit or bound of self or individual. I also used the term entropy somewhere that is quite complicated to define completely but simply put; it means disorderliness. I wanted to follow up on this discussion but after reading message from Chowk Staff, I tried for 24 hours to refrain from unrelated issues.

Pankaj, you have elaborated my previous post very well. Similarly, tahmed, you have made a valid observation through human psychology and the unilateral phenomenon of interacting through internet with the factor of delayed time in response. Invariably, this lead to a multitude of one-to-one parallel interacts taking place under one topic with each one trying to make his/ her point as forcefully as possible in each shot. This is exactly where religions come handy because almost everybody has some knowledge of their and their targeted individual`s religion.

Moreover, it is one of the easiest paths to take. All religions do have basic goodness and value system built into them. All of them are based on essentially a very simplistic model of life, social justice and morality because: 1) They were developed in the distant past when consumption and demand of knowledge, spirituality and morality was limited to what we now consider basics and antique. 2) It had to be simple to be applicable and understandable to a large number of people.

Many of the respondents are using the same basic knowledge to the complicated questions of today, similar to Mullahs or Mahants. In practice, complex questions require complex answers with the consideration of a number of variables, absent at the time of inception of moral/ spiritual codes. Relying too much on the basics for complex questions (as in the case of ``religious scholars``, Mullahs or Mahants) leads to a resistance toward facing the tough questions head-on (superiority complex) and obscurantism, both of which are the natural allies of Mullahs/ Mahants. They are well versed and equipped with the basic knowledge that they use effectively against freethinkers (free from the boundary conditions set by organized religions/ priests), intellectuals and specialists in their respective fields. Simply put, modern, rational and logical thinking threatens the status, bread and butter of priestly class which they are bound to defend fiercely through interpreting religion in a way which guarantees their status. In the case of Pakistan, attempts to arabize culture, extensive use of Arabic terminology and phrases in the vernaculars, ``Islamize, both society and state are some of the means towards their desired ends.

Tahmed

Forget boundary condition and calculus. It was just a small ramble from the main topic. What I essentially implied is conveyed in the first para of my post. It is when a class of people with vested interests like Mullahas or Mahantas take up the task of interpreting religion and force their beliefs down the throats of gullible common man, religion becomes a menace to modern society. If there are conscientious people who interpret these sayings with a compassionate heart and humanitarian bent of mind there would be no problems. It is the scientific attitude and humanitarian ideals that should rule human mind not dogmas. True we can make mistakes even if we follow scientific methods but I believe it will be less horrendous than the crimes committed in the name of religion.

Sincerely

SameerJB #101: You wrote that ``All religions are true within the boundary conditions of self. It creates problems when we try to extend the boundary conditions to others and to other nations whose majority belongs to a different religion.``

Pankaj then wrote about the beauty of the concept of ``boundary conditions``. I realized then that I had no clue as to what you meant by this. I then checked the internet to understand what it means and understood this to be a term from calculus (which I never took beyond an introductory class). So, would any of you gentlemen, please explain in a language that even a moron like me can understand, exactly what you mean by this term?

http://www.timesofindia.com/today/09home5.htm
`Badnaseeb` Zafar`s family bemoans lost legacy
Monday 9 October 2000

http://www.sulekha.com/cgi-bin/column.cgi?resource=ms_roma
The Roma and the Persistence of Memory
Subhash Kak

a) Our pakistani friends have the Babri Masjid ( never mind it was built on a hindu shrine, never mind nobody ever offered prayers there) stick to beat the intolerant Indians.

Maybe they can enlighten us on the number of Hindu / Sikh shrines destroyed in their glorious tradition prior to and after the Babri Masjid.

b) let me assure that the Sikhs are very happy and doing very very well in India save for the few who are holed up in Karachi and Lahore. Now gentlemen see the people who are shedding tears for Sikhs.

The Pakistani cultural icon, the deeply religious `Aurangzeb` who bricked alive the kids of the Sikh Guru and tortured the Sikh Guru because they refused to convert. Such is the greatness of their cultural icon. The people who depict the Sikhs as ( J or Z for Zalim with a photo of a sikh) are shedding tears for the Sikhs.

The noble Mughal emperor `Abkar` is quite a villian as per Paki history books. That he choose to respect the other religions and did not break the shrines etc does not go down very well in the land of the pure.



Once again the Baburs, Ghanznis who raped, pillaged the subcontinent are the Paki heroes. That it is quite possible that the ancestors of todays pakistanis , Indians were at the receiving end of the Baburs, ghaznis is convenienlty forgotten!!!

c) As for the Christians, they are much much safer in India and do jobs other than that of `jamadars` which is their primary occupation in the land of the pure.

d) And yes the Muslims. They are much much safer in india. they dont get shot in mosques while parying and they are entitled to all rights that a Indian citizen has. They are not barred from occupying the highest positions in the land. the pakistani friends did not hear the MQM leaders in India asking for reunion with India and repenting the mistakes of 1947.

e) Coming back to the question of who were the the pakistanis before they came under the `civilizing` rule of Islam. i would leave this question to some of the more illustrious memebers of the forum.

f) why is there no reference to Harrapa and Mohanjodaro in the pakistani History books.

RSaxena #

Good to know that you are not yet American citizen. You are entitled to your worst kind of thoughts, because of this. And I apologize for realizing it late.

As far as YLH has clarified his position from Iran. I can trace my lineage all the way back till the time of Tughlaq when my ancesstors came. I cannot speak about Musharraf.

But my common bond with Musharraf is with belief in the same God, Prophet and Book. That was the same bond which made Pakistan possible. That was the same bond which kept Hindus and Muslims as two distinct entities for millenium.

Even if someone cannot trace the ancesstary to Arab, he can trace the common belief.

a) Our pakistani friends have the Babri Masjid ( never mind it was built on a hindu shrine, never mind nobody ever offered prayers there) stick to beat the intolerant Indians.

Maybe they can enlighten us on the number of Hindu / Sikh shrines destroyed in their glorious tradition prior to and after the Babri Masjid.

b) let me assure that the Sikhs are very happy and doing very very well in India save for the few who are holed up in Karachi and Lahore. Now gentlemen see the people who are shedding tears for Sikhs.

The Pakistani cultural icon, the deeply religious `Aurangzeb` who bricked alive the kids of the Sikh Guru and tortured the Sikh Guru because they refused to convert. Such is the greatness of their cultural icon. The people who depict the Sikhs as ( J or Z for Zalim with a photo of a sikh) are shedding tears for the Sikhs.

The noble Mughal emperor `Abkar` is quite a villian as per Paki history books. That he choose to respect the other religions and did not break the shrines etc does not go down very well in the land of the pure.



Once again the Baburs, Ghanznis who raped, pillaged the subcontinent are the Paki heroes. That it is quite possible that the ancestors of todays pakistanis , Indians were at the receiving end of the Baburs, ghaznis is convenienlty forgotten!!!

c) As for the Christians, they are much much safer in India and do jobs other than that of `jamadars` which is their primary occupation in the land of the pure.

d) And yes the Muslims. They are much much safer in india. they dont get shot in mosques while parying and they are entitled to all rights that a Indian citizen has. They are not barred from occupying the highest positions in the land. the pakistani friends did not hear the MQM leaders in India asking for reunion with India and repenting the mistakes of 1947.

e) Coming back to the question of who were the the pakistanis before they came under the `civilizing` rule of Islam. i would leave this question to some of the more illustrious memebers of the forum.

f) why is there no reference to Harrapa and Mohanjodaro in the pakistani History books.

RSaxena #

Good to know that you are not yet American citizen. You are entitled to your worst kind of thoughts, because of this. And I apologize for realizing it late.

As far as YLH has clarified his position from Iran. I can trace my lineage all the way back till the time of Tughlaq when my ancesstors came. I cannot speak about Musharraf.

But my common bond with Musharraf is with belief in the same God, Prophet and Book. That was the same bond which made Pakistan possible. That was the same bond which kept Hindus and Muslims as two distinct entities for millenium.

Even if someone cannot trace the ancesstary to Arab, he can trace the common belief.

Thanx Krashid. I would prefer crude but honest people any day over polished but hypocrites. This net is indeed a beautiful thing. You can bring out all that is simmering within you without having to care for other`s feelings. May be such an exercise by giving vent to our feelings,avoids dangerous explosion in our real lives.

Cheers

SameerJB and Tahmed

Interesting discussion. If I correctly interpret Sameer, the point he makes is that given the varied interpretations of religious beliefs, religion often becomes a weapon in the hands of a determined bigoted clique to brainwash the less intellectually gifted majority to tread its path. Few selfish Mullas among Muslims and their Hindu counterparts as Mahants, use a vulnerable God fearing majority to further their own interests. What Tahmed says is also right. If there are conscientious people who interpret the sayings with a humanitarian point of view, realising that the truth can be multifaceted, there would be little problem. But my friend Tahmed, this is not practical looking at the way priests of organized religion abuse religion. The point is not whether religious teachings are right or wrong but that how are they interpreted and still more importantly how are they implemented. So in my opinion, organized religion should be banned and the task of interpretation should be left to the individual. I have more faith that when the impressionable minds are not poisoned, they will probably interpret more objectively. No one wants to have bloodshed and quarrels. One more point, all the religions contain certain teachings which were inserted by some selfish people like caste system in Hinduism. With changing times people must apply their own wisdom to alter or eradicate such things.

BTW, Sameer I love words of your vocab like boundary conditions being a student of engg.Only a scientist/engineer can truly appreciate the beauty of two point boundary value problems.

Cheers

RE: krashid

``What are you doing on this forum, tracing your ancestry to India? Aren`t you an American citizen.``

No, I am not an American citizen. How silly and typical of you to assume that I am.

``My ancesstors settled in all parts of India, but they came from Arab, Central Asia, and Iran. What can I do?``

For most of you, your ancestors did not come from anywhere. You are the children and descendants of forced converts. Most of you should go look in a mirror and then look at the pictures of some Arabs and you`ll see what I am talking about. Your Moose CE leader was born in Delhi and looks as much. Throw him in India, strip his Quran from his chest and he`ll fit right in. Pathetic fools.

SameerJB #101 I am not sure that religion is the cause of these ``We-Good-You-Bad`` posts. A serious consideration of any religion tends to reveal the profound humanity and beauty of the basic concepts, of their commonality of concepts in all other religions. So it cant be religion. I suspect the cause of such attacks and counterattacks have to do with (a) psychological factors - personal insecurities, feelings of inferiority, anger - that interact with (b) the peculiarities of the internet medium. These peculiarities include the one-dimensional interaction that some chowkwallahs, including temporal and myself had discussed earlier. Similarly, in real life, religion is dragged in as a means to promote ``hidden`` psychological agendas: a desire to gain authority without responsibility (this, I suspect, is what caused people like Zia, Nawaz Sharif, assorted Mullahs to call of an Islamic State), a desire to overcome feelings of inferiority and servitude through nationistic fervor, and so forth.

RSaxena#

Your remarks on manoj quote are interesting.

That unlike Muslims Hindus don`t trace their ancesstory to Arabs.

Can they?

What are you doing on this forum, tracing your ancesstary to India? Aren`t you an American citizen.

What is good for you is good for us. My ancesstors settled in all parts of India, but they came from Arab, Central Asia, and Iran. What can I do?

Pankaj#

I see any issue as a human issue. It does not matter to me if it happens in India or Pakistan or any other country. That is my choice.

As I am not politician and don`t intend to be. I don`t expect people on this forum to meet in real life, so I can be very crude.

This is a thought forum. Real life is relationship forum. And In the last analysis,I have to carry my own Cross. So why burden my conscience, when I can do without that. In real life, I might smile and say ``Oh yes Kashmir issue is a complicated issue, lets go and eat``.

What I would think and do if I am in the shoes of Kashmiri? Do they have a right? Is their right historically, geographically and morally justified?. I found myself more sympathetic to the thoughts of Umair, who is a Kashmiri himself. Moreover, I have worked with Kashmiris in Iran, both Hindu and Muslim.

Krashid

I do not wish to start a discussion on much accursed K- issue, but from whatever info I have, I believe it is more of an Indo-Pak problem than an indigeneous Kashmiri uprising. I also do not believe that the war is being carried out by Kashmiris alone and with only ``moral`` support of Pakistan. This is not to say that Indian forces are pious and they are not committing any immoral or sinful deed in Kashmir. However, all the talk about freedom of Kashmiris seems only a facade to me to blur ulterior motives. If right of self determination is extended too far every minor group speaking a different dialect will claim a nation of there own. Regarding rights of Kashmiris, they must enjoy inalienable rights as free men. Presently if you know, no Indian from any other part of India can buy land or settle in Kashmir as a citizen of state. This provision of Indian Constitution already guarantees that the demographic balance of the state is kept intact. Infact I am in favor of guaranting autonomy to the state in all respects except Defence, Foreign affairs, and Communication. Kashmir has to be prevented from going Taliban way that Mujahideens like L-e-t want to take it to. But for this Pakistan MUST stop cross border terrorism and let peaceloving Kashmiris to sit and talk with the Indian Govt. Pakistan foiled the recent peace dialogue as it was afraid that if the talk is successful it may deprive him of the status of being a party in the issue.Pray what other argument but TNT(that I disagree with) can be put forward in advocating for a free Kashmir.

I am all for declaring LoC as the permanent border and end this internecine struggle. Lets say goodbye to Kashmir issue, settle down peacefully and do some good work for our countries. I optimistically hope that good days will return and we will be able to sit and talk about pleasant things over a coffee table. I know we have a lot of grievances against each other, but afterall we had lived together for centuries and sorted them out. For the sake of millions of poor, and common people we can at least make an attempt to mellow down our differences and pay attention to more constructive things. United we stand, divided we fall.

Cheers

Krashid

Its not the story of India alone but also Pakistan or for that matter rest of the world. No country has a monopoly on violence and injustice. Regarding your answer, I have not heard of any mosque brought down in Kashmir. Regarding intercaste clashes, lower castes are much more independent and well off economically now than before. If the economic progress continues at this rate, and with the spread of urbanization it will not be long before this evil is completely eradicated. The awareness among dalits about their constituitonal rights is increasing and they will soon come at par with the rest of countrymen. I need not tell but as an aware citizen you might be aware of equivalent forms of social injustice in Pakistan too. And regarding Mujahideens, I will not say anything but that violence begets violence. My views differ on this issue and I would not debate on that.

All said, I thought you were declaring mosque demolition and other things to be happening in India on a daily basis. Anyway you are entitled to your opinions.

Sincerely

tahmad321 (#100):

[All I see are the usual tiresome Hindu-Muslim-we-are-good-you-are-bad postings.]

What else is new? This style of discourse appears to be the most popular among certain desis this late in the twentieth century. But these people do not held sway over the mind and thoughts of a very large number of concerned individuals. The progress of such projects will ultimately depend on the determination of the authors and working out ingenious planning to expedite such a well-intentioned sevice for the next generation of desis.

I wonder why people do not realize that the principle of exclusivity of truth through religion is crumblining not only because of inter-religious rivalries but also intra-religious divisiveness with no inherent forces in them to control the rise in entropy. It is pathetic when the concerns of religions supersede the concerns and goodwill towards individuals, society and fellow human beings. Not only it elevates the status of religious intellectuals over all intellectuals in their respective fields, it also makes the behavior of such nations very predictable. It is often said that what we need is to follow Islam in its true essence. By following it in international relations means losing the element of surprise or flexibilty. Your adversaries or nemesis can also learn ``Islam in its true essence`` and correctly forcast your stand on a variety of social, moral, economical, political and in the area of international relationship.

That is why religion should play no role in governance in modern times. A history textbook written as objectively as possible is a step in the right direction, if we are interested in progress towards a just society and peaceful co-existance with our neighbors and the rest of the world.

All religions are true within the boundary conditions of self. It creates problems when we try to extend the boundary conditions to others and to other nations whose majority belongs to a different religion. What we see then is what we are seeing here at chowk so often.

Isa/Sadiq: I took a quick look at the recent correspondence on this subject and dont see any progress on your initiative. All I see are the usual tiresome Hindu-Muslim-we-are-good-you-are-bad postings. You as the discussion facilitators seem to have gone for lunch in the meantime.

Please advise if this initiative is proceeding or that you have dropped it.

Pankaj #97

There was a news of another mosque demolition recently.

In Kashmir soldiers go in mosque with boots.

Recently a soldier has been punished for raping a Kashmiri (an eyewash and tip of ice burg.

And examples you are giving from Bihar or if you give from Kanpur, Gujrat, Maharashter or any other place. Aren`t they part of India.

Re: manoj

``....The only difference is that the Indians dont try to trace their history / ancestory to the arabs. Which the pakistanis try quite streneously!!!!! without any results``

Most of these Jihadis are the descendants of forced converts. Had their forefathers been braver and not given in to the threat of the invading sword, they`d be a little different today. And South Asia would be a little different today. They never were Arabic and never will be. It`s almost laughable.

Krashid

You may not be correct. Mosques are not demolished in India on a daily basis.(give me an example other than Babri Masjid). Also except for Bihar where there is a caste war between upper castes represented by Ranvir Sena and lower castes representsd by Naxalites and Marxists revolutionery army, there is no institutionalised killings of lower castes in any other part of India. Although extremely lower castes such as Harijans still face some social discrimination(note ``social``) they are advantaged group when it comes to govt jobs in which they have 50% reservation.(Backwards:27% Sc/ST: 22.5%). So I dont find your statements accurate.

Sincerely

Manoj!

Your words are beautiful.

I hope word could fill the stomach of the world whether truth or lies.

But it needs actions. And so for all things.

Bombay riots were Hindu Muslim riots. Thousands were killed.

In New Dehli thousands of Sikhs were killed.

In Kashmir unfortunately the INDIGENT Hizbul-Mujahideen of interim period is now Pakistani militants. Hundreds of thousands killed.

Daily killing of Muslims, low caste hindus, christians, burning of churches, demolition of mosques etc. (And don`t tell they are lie)

Do I believe your words or your actions.

Historical accuracy in Pakistani social studies textbooks is often less important than ideology. In Pakistan, all students are required to take courses called Pakistan Studies and must pass standardized tests based on that curriculum. There are numerous textbooks published under the title, Pakistan Studies, which are, in general, a composite of patriotic discourses, justification of the Two-Nation Theory, Muslim heroes, and discussions of the superiority of Islamic principals over Hinduism. Pakistan Studies as a compulsory subject at the secondary and college level came in to being during the regime of General Zia-ul-Haq. The textbooks authored to reflect his mandates are decidedly anti-democratic and anti-ethnic, inclined to dogmatic tirades and filled with oxymorons and internal contradictions, and they are still in use in today`s Pakistan. Pakistani nationalism is characterized by ironies and contractions.

The manipulation of the media and the twisted historical discourse found in Pakistani Social Studies textbooks present multiple inconsistencies and oxymorons. In contemporary Pakistani textbooks the historical narrative is quite naturally, based on the Two Nation Theory. The story of the nation begins with the advent of Islam when Mohammed-bin-Qazim arrived in Sindh followed by Mahmud of Ghazni storming through the Khyber Pass, 16 times, bringing the ``Light of Islam to the infidels`` who converted en mass to escape the evil domination of the ``cruel Brahmins``. Reviewing a selection of textbooks published since 1972 in Pakistan will verify the assumption that there is little or no discussion of the ancient cultures that have flowed
in the land that is now Pakistan, such as Taxila and Mohenjo-Daro. In general, any mention of Hinduism is inevitably accompanied by derogatory critiques, and none of the greatness of Indic civilization is considered--not even the success of Chandragupta Maurya, who defeated, or at least frightened the invading army of Alexander the Great at the banks of the Beas River where it flows through the land that is now called Pakistan. These events are deemed meaningless since they are not about Muslim heroes. There is an elision in time between the moment Islam first arrived in Sindh and Muhammad Ali Jinnah. According to A.H. Nayyar a professor at Quaid-e-Azam University, ``What is important in the exercise is the faithful transmission, without any criticism or re-evaluation, of the particular view of the past which is implicit in the coming to fruition of the `Pakistan Ideology.```

History and social studies textbooks in Pakistan glorify the exploits of Muhammad-bin-Qazim, who is credited with bringing Islam and Arab culture to South Asia through the Indus Valley corridor.
In reality, Mohammed-bin-Qazim beheaded most men above the age of eighteen in several cities in Sindh. He captured thousands of Sindhi women and sent them to harems in the Abbasid kingdom. Pre-Islamic Sindhis fought valiantly against these foreign invaders, in fact repelling about fifteen raiding attempts by Arab armies to invade Sindh, before Muhammad-bin- Qazim was finally successful.

BTW there is no doubt that Aurangzeb was a villan. In fact he was one of the greates tyrant.

yasser,

just surfed over to the ``siqafat`` website for a few. I often disagree with what you say but my respect for you has increased.

Keep it up, bro.

Prem

aicha #31 and tahmed #30

Dear aicha

a) Well aicha , I want to ask you if it is possible for a non muslim to practise his religion in Saudi Arabia. A hindu cant take pictures of his GOd etc inside S. Arabia. people go to US and other countries for work9ex pats) but are free to practise their religion. Surely there is no danger to S. arabia if someone prays to his God in his house or in a religious place.

b) you are very true when u say that Indians / Pakistanis are given 3rd rate treatment in mid east. The only difference is that the Indians dont try to trace their history / ancestory to the arabs. Which the pakistanis try quite streneously!!!!! without any results.

c) Aicha, why does not democracy take root in the Islamic republics? because the essential ingredient of democracy `tolerance` is missing.

d) aicha, do you also believe that conversion of native Indians to Islam was peaceful and without force?

e) I wish I could give link where this kashmiri militants naming themselves Abu ...... to sound more arabic.

I will appreciate a point wise rebuttal.

Dear tahmed,

Dont worry if I am fake or not.

But please announce it to the forum that the K for .. and J or Z for .. is not taught in Pakistan. The fountainhead of hatred lies in the place called `land of the pure` and no where else.

Pl let all of us know why a non muslim cant become the PM or President or the Army chief. unless of course you have `peacefully` converted everybody.

Indians dont teach that muslims are Kafirs and fit to be killed. The kids in indian school sing

`Ishwar Allah tero naam, sabko sumati ( good sense) de bhagwan`. Quite unlike the madressa educated cyber jehadis from the `land of the pure`!!!!

CENSORSHIP- PAK STYLE,

In the `nation` of today, in the opinion column there is an open letter to vajpaye. The details of the author, in the last two lines have been blued out for censorsip. Stll faintly legible, the author is the leader of a jihadic organisation. Internet censor ship, pak style and this is original, a real contribution to IT from pakistan.

The premier Pakistani publication at Rutgers

Cut`n`paste, of which I am the co editor, can now be accessed from

http://www.siqafat.cjb.net

Dear Chowk: due to workload, I did not get into this forum until now. I wholeheartedly appreciate this idea. I am not sure how I can be of any use, my background is in Engineering, and have read very little history. However, if I can be of any assistance, you know where I am located from my user ID, and feel free to contact.

Jay #81, you are an intelligent man with wits matching only with Hamidm here (judging from your posts only). Please refrain from adding salt to the injury. This is not going to take us anywhere.

Paging for gymno, Sadhna, Zeemax, Farangikush, yes where is Farangikush?

Regards

cheraym

How ironic! that Pankaj`s post echoes Mr Jinnah`s speech of 1920 Congress Nagpur session made in opposition to Mr Gandhi`s involvement in Khilafat Movement and his noncooperation Movement.

Yasser Hamdani

Based upon my casual and partial reading, I commend both Pankaj and TAhmad for their effort to provide much needed understaning of the Indian religious/communal politics vis a vis the Muslims. Please keep it up!

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Re Tahmed

The crux of the whole affair, as far as I perceive were some of the pseudosecularist policies of Congress that sought to win ``Vote Bank`` by appeasing extremist elements from both religions. Unfortunately once this genie of fundamentalism is out of the bottle, it is difficult to put it back. What was even more tragic that Muslims got very little in this bargain as well as Hindus. Many Hindus failed to understand that one more temple will not eliminate their problems which are well known. Similarly by giving in to extremism, Muslims were unable to exact any promise from Congress for the real development of their community.

Since partition Indian Muslims had an ambivalent feelings towards India. They probably feel insecure from overwhelming Hindu population.

It is a well known psychological fact that a community feeling insecure, rallies behind extremist elements. You may be surprised to know that many Indian Muslims vote more on the basis of what is decreed(fatwa) by Imam from Jama Masjid or local Masjids. This was indeed the point that BJP used to instigate Hindus to polarise on the line of Muslims. You may probably also be knowing how inept politicians fool people in the name of caste among Hindus to win elections. There are very few leaders in Muslim community who realise the importance of modern education and tolerence. Muslim community by and large has alienated itself from the mainstream. I guess you will agree with me that praising Pakistani team with an open heart is one thing(that most of us do) and celebrating it in the streets or taking out processions is another. Dont you think that acts like this only serve to confirm the irartional suspicions and fears of the Hindus. Muslims might want to change their role models to Abdul Hamid, Abdul Kalam,Aziz Premji(Wipro CEO) and progress rather heed to Imams and remain backward.

When I went to school, I had a Muslim classmate Mohd Asif Khan and we had very good terms. Even now, there is an educated Muslim family beside our house close to Jajmau, and we exchange sweets of Deewali and Id. It is notable that inspite of whole Kanpur burning, Lal Bangla+Jajmau area didn`t have a single riot. I attribute it to the educated and liberal Muslims+Hindus in this area. It is only by learning to respect each other that we can live in peace and progress.

I hope that with time and economic progress, some intelligent Muslim leaders will

come forward to make people realise the imp of modern education and economic development and prevent their use as ``Vote Bank`` by selfish demagogues. Same thing can be said about Hindus.

I am disillusioned with the whole Indian politics of ``Vote Bank`` in which the corrupt politicians divide people in the name of religion, caste etc to consolidate their votes. My only hope is that people someday will realise that constructing a Mandir or Masjid is not a solution to everyday problems. And elect proper leaders who focus on development. I hope for the day when people will no longer vote along caste or religion lines, when they demand concrete work from their represenatives. In short, I hope for a day when Brutus wins and Mark Antony is vanquished.

Cheers

Pankaj #77 Your post certainly increased my knowledge of the Kanpur politics.

Based on this, I draw the following conclusions: (a) A gap was created between Hindus and Muslims in Kanpur as muslim extremists succeeded in pressuring the Congress government to allow ``muslim`` family laws to supersede the civil laws.

(b) This gap widened due to Babri mosque destruction as hindu extremists succeeded in pressuring the Congress government to look the other way.

(c) Things escalated with anti-hindu riots in Chamanganj.

(d) Indian muslims are seen (even by yourself) as having divided loyalties.

I have the following comments, based on the above understanding of the Kanpur politics:

(a) While congress may have seemed as if it was appeasing muslims or hindus, in fact it was appeasing only the extremists among them. For example, did anyone ask muslims to give a referendum on the issue of ``muslim`` laws, or for hindus to give a referendum on the issue of Babri masjid? I would bet that had a referendum been taken, muslims would have rejected the ``muslim`` laws and hindus would have rejected the storming of the Babri masjid. (I put quotes against ``muslim`` laws, since a comparison of them with the teachings of the Quran would have shown them to be quite unIslamic anyway, and simply the male chauvinistic views of some individuals.)

(b) You feel that there are many Indian muslims who have warm feelings for Pakistan. So what? The problem is not their warm feelings for Pakistan, but the hostilities between Pakistani and Indian governments. Italian-Americans can love both Italy and the US, so having warm feelings for one place or culture does not mean not having similar feelings for other places or culture.

When it comes to bringing people together, Governments are not going to be able do it - not Congress, as we have seen, nor BJP from whatever I can tell, nor any Pakistani government so far. However, the growth of the middle class and other global developments may make the Hindu-Muslims rifts as well as the Pakistan-India rifts obsolete over time.

What is important is this: In the meantime, ordinary people like you and me need to try and not allow the extremists on either side to set the agenda of conflict. Instead, we need to realize the utter stupidity of such conflicts and of the hate-mongers. The internet provides us with one way to keep light tiny beacons of peace and friendship and respect for all beliefs and cultures. Over time, I have no doubt, these beacons will join others and will one day Inshallah become a mighty light that chase away the darkness of ``jahalat`` that has enveloped this land for too long.

Rsaxena #76: I know in India a couple of wealthy NRIs are building free hospitals and schools with no assistance from the government...in fact they were asked for bribes to get permits. In any case, efforts like that are a drop in the otherwise empty bucket.

There`s a few orgs that started in the last few years and based in US that are funding the NGO projects. It may be peanuts, but the fact that it takes about a decade to stabilize such orgs and the effort and time put in by working individuals must mean something? Drops add up ...

Its another thing if we like to wallow in self-pity, and wax eloquent about our helplessness! (I do this too - may be just another subcontinental trait)

Please also read an excellent article by Dr. Tariq Rehman about the origin of different languages of Pakistan. The title of the article is ``People and Languages of Pre-Islamic Indus Valley`` at the following address:

http://asnic.utexas.edu/asnic/subject/peoplesandlanguages.html

Foqia, Q. Isa and the Rest:

I came across a website dealing with the history of Pakistan in some detail. It is:

http://www.geocities.com/pak_history/main.html



Are you managing this site or familiar with it? The quality of material is much better than usual textbooks variety and aside from critical of Brahmanical Hinduism, most material is pretty objective. Please visit this site and learn some areas of our history, many of us may not be familiar with. I think this website provides a prototype of the style, you are planning to write.

Some of the topics covered here are in great detail, for example, the historical origins of the people of Pakistan.

HOPE FOR PAKISTANIS,

There is hope, at least for the 30 million mohajirs, duped by the two nation theory. From deccan herald of today,

MQM leader seeks India`s support to halt Pak`s Talibanisation

NEW DELHI, Oct 1 (UNI)

Leaders of Pakistan`s Mutahida Quami Movement (MQM), on their first ever visit to India, today came up with tales of atrocities and denial of minimum political rights to the smaller nationalities by the Pakistani establishment and called for democratic restructuring of the ``failed`` political system there.

``Feudalism and fundamentalism have fashioned in Pakistan a culture which rationalises dictation and defends obedience,`` said Mr S A Tariq Mir, member of the MQM central co-ordination committee.

He said the smaller provinces in Pakistan are now faced with influx of Taliban-style fundamentalism besides drugs and small arms proliferation which could have destabilising consequences for the South Asian region. ``India cannot sit idle with an unstable Pakistan in the control of fundamentalists with their fingers on the nuclear button,`` he warned.

Mr Mir and two of his party colleagues, Mohammad Anwar, chief organiser of MQM in Britain and Europe, and Dr Khalid Maqbool Siddiqui, deputy convenor, expressed their views at a workshop today on the ``two-nation theory,`` organised by Security and Political Risk Analysis (Sapra), a think tank on security issues.

///time for the 3NT, for the real jinnahist to come forward, potentially pak punjab is for you.

Ummair,

Reference #34

This is not even a semblance of an answer, just some relevant points put down in-coherently on BJP. I may not believe in validity of all the points I have put. But, I truly believe, they are relevant. Before I put them here, are some ground rules I would like to play ļ)

1) To start with take me as a person who would vote for BJP more likely than not. You can quote me on that. There are few exceptions (individual candidates), but by and large I would vote for BJP.

2) I do not have any wish match every thing hurled at me (rightly, wrongly or vaguely). I just do not have time, energy or inclination.

3) Extention of point 2 above¡K I do not mind criticism. I will candid enough to u..I am a biased person and would be more receptive to answer some more than others (say likes of u (Ha!), Bilal, Shandana, Sadhana, Ferozks). I can just ignore some¡K... so will not mind anyone and every one just pounding on me anywhichway they can.

4) I have very scanty knowledge about Pakistan (for that matter India too). No claim of any expertize on that one. I have met few pakistanies, but just could not distinguish them from anyone else in South Asia. Same issues/problems/aspirations/propensity not to accept changes easily ¡K..

So here is Pandora¡¦s Box

„h BJP leaders (the top ones at least) have been around for ages. They have been in opposition for decades and decades without portraying themselves as just power hungry. On this count, Congress loses to them hands down.

„h The day-to-day BJPian you will see, comes from middle class who works in public/private sector, or business community. It is very difficult to portray these people as bigots. They are not. One knows them well enough personally. Plus business community has bigger priority than politics in day-to-day life, Business. Very hard for them to even be seen as anyone who will drive customer away.

„h Middle class in India (still) believes BJP and CPM (Marxist) are the people who say what they do and do what they say. It is just the consistancy. BJP has an advantage over CPM because of their freer economy stance now-a-days.

„h TNT still exists in India. There are some sects of Muslims (I cannot define them) which have joined mainstream Indian life more than most. For example, I know a sect known as Bohris. These people are typically ¡K.. soft spoken, doing well in business, have majority of their customers (buyers as well as sellers) other than muslims. These people are found mostly well educated, donate/contribute heavily in the community in which they live (schools other issues). Iranians in India (even though almost extinct) is other example. They just never will be considered as anyone but mainstream.

„h Extention to above point ¡K Whatever path Congress/CPM took for 50 years, has not proved to be a path that, was inclusive one. It has not worked very well. BJP is considered to be too nationalistic to be believed (still) to be exclusive in long run. (Kind of why not give them a try?).

„h BJP shoulders burden of power (and correspondingly charge of inaction) now. In order to do that, they just have to play by the ¡¥political¡¦ rules. They have to become like any other party . That in long (even short?) run is going to be their peril/asset. Nothing to do with BJP¡¦s idealogy.

„h Currently, there is a sense of optimism in India over all. There is a small boom in economy and most (all casts/creeds) ¡¥feel¡¦ this boom. There is work available for everyone who wants to (may not be where u want it, may not match what u want to do). Party in power gets the credit.

„h Extention of above point¡K. No economy expert me, but even I know there exists a huge undocumented economy in India. I am not talking about under-world economy but undocumented economy. That is booming too. It helps to ruling party.

„h Let us be very clear on this one. Either u get it or not (no rudity intended), Kargil was a victory for BJP in general and big one for our PM Atal Bihari Bajpai.

„h Many BJP ¡¥voters¡¦ in India believe in one people, one nation, one law, one destiny (please take out the religion ; that does not matter to a very large ¡¥fews¡¦).

„h Nobody reads BJP¡¦s web sites. Most who vote for BJP in India do not know it exists. For that matter, most do not know what is a web-site.

„h Finally, voting in election is not a very rational/logical process done by the voter. U will be simply amazed by the reason why a person may decide to vote to a particular candidate/party in India. I do not want to tell ¡¥tales¡¦. But please trust me u may land up in finding there is no ¡¥LOGIC¡¦ to it some(many)times.

Above may be just rambling. Most of it (may be all) you may know already. We can have a separate discussion on any (or all of the) points above, if u feel so. May be u have some new ones. If nothing further needed, just ignore all of it. Thanx

Bystander11

Re: RSaxena # 76

I agree with your post 100 percent!

I just wish that our leaders would admit they are flawed and our people would realize that governments are not the perfect solution to our problems.

You are right that the world laughs at us and who can blame it...we are cheap entertainment on CNN!

Ciao!

Jay#

Why don`t you donate your dead body for the cause.

I will take all measure so that it reaches dissection hall.

Your ``atma`` which is so ``Beqarar`` these days will find solace. Moreover this good deed might reincarnate you as human in your next ``Janam``.

Tahmed

Thank you tahmed. I would like to start by giving estimated demographics of the city:15-20% Muslims,20% uppercastes, 25-35% backwards,2-3% Christians, and the rest are lower castes or miscellaneous. Muslims are concentrated in the some specific parts of the city, namely Chamanganj, and Jajmau. The population is overwhelmingly middle class. Kanpur was once known for its textile mills. Now it is considered an industrial region with numerous small scale industries thriving by Panaki region. Muslims mainly own tannaries and slaughter houses and other leather works. A lot others are involved in tailoring and other buisness.

Kanpur was known as a strong bastion of Congress till 1988. Situations started taking a turn when the then Govt of Rajiv Gandhi upturned a decision issued by Supreme Court in Shahbano case to pander to the extremist Mullahas in around 1986. Actually Supreme Court had ruled that the husband will have to provide some fixed alimony to the wife even after talaq and it was denounced by most of the Mullas as an interference with Shariat. BJP took advantage of this situation to put forward a concept of Uniform Civil code which was applauded by the Hindu masses and some Muslim sections who felt Govt is going all the way to appease some extremist Muslim leaders. In 1989 elections, a Communist Muslim leader Subhashini Ali won from Kanpur pushing Congress to third place while BJP surprisingly stood second. This was because before elections Rajiv ordered open the gates of disputed structure in Ayodhya to appease some extremist Hindu leaders which angered Muslims. So while upper castes+backwards turned to BJP, Muslims also shunned Congress and large sections of both Hindus and Muslims instead joined JD+Communist. After demolition of disputed structure in 1992, there were riots everywhere in Kanpur. While scores of Hindus were killed in Chamanganj, many Muslims were butchered in the other areas of Kanpur. After this event, Hindus fled from Chamanganj, and Muslims were even more concentrated in Chamanganj and Jajmau. RSS people did help Hindu families afflicted by riots while Govt was apathetic. This created a sympathy for BJP and there was a polarisation of the communities based on religion. The selective touring of Subhashini Ali to the Muslim areas further angered Hindus who felt cheated. The result was that BJP won by an overwhelming majority in the next elections. BJP fanned Hindu feelings by saying about thousands of temples sacked by Muslim invaders. They also called Subhashini Ali a traitor. I was only 15 then. In my opinion what made Hindus believe BJP was something else. It is a truth that I have been seeing many Muslims who celebrated the victory of Pakistan against India in Cricket, Hockey and other such events. There was a feeling that Muslims dont consider it as their own country. Note I am only talking about the general emotions that ran at that time. Also not all Muslims did such things but a sizeable portion did. Also Muslims tended to vote en masse against BJP heeding to the fatwas of their religious leaders. BJP used it to polarise Hindus. However after the emotions subsided the lead of BJP diminished as they failed to improve the infrastructure of the city and I hear that in the last parliamentary elections a Congress leader who lost to assembly elections earlier, won surprisingly defeating BJP.

In retrospection, I think while Hindu communities are guilty of getting carried away, some Muslims are no less guilty of openly showing their loyalties to the other countries. In Chamanganj, there is lawlessness these days. People do not pay for the electicity and water bills and no officer dares to enter and demand the same lest he should be dragged into the narrow gullies and killed. Many rich and respected peace loving Muslims especially Shias have migrated from that area to settle in Hindu-Muslim colonies of Jajmau which are more peaceful. Enough said, I have attempted to sketch an outline of the main reasons that made BJP readily accepted among Hindus. But sustaining this support will depend upon the performance of BJP. At the central level it has performed admirably and so it won support. But it also suffered heavy losses in the state of UP where it did not deliver in the last elections.

Cheers

Re: Ferozk

``You are right, but will our countries accept our help?``

Only if it doesn`t cost local leaders their bribes or require them to lift a finger. I know in India a couple of wealthy NRIs are building free hospitals and schools with no assistance from the government...in fact they were asked for bribes to get permits. In any case, efforts like that are a drop in the otherwise empty bucket.

``The problem is not a lack of help, but convincing the powers be that they need help!``

Very true. We are too busy celebrating our silly cricket victories and 10 IT billionaires while over half the population in each country rots due to illiteracy and lack of electricity, drinking water, and healthcare.

The world laughs at us and we bask in baseless self-flattery. Countries are made by its people and we have conveniently pointed fingers at our governments. Who elects those governments? Who allows them to stay in power?

Japan, Germany, and Singpaore build themselves back up from nothing but we failed miserably, showing to the world how incapable we are of dragging ourselves out of the middle-ages.

krashid,

At last you appear to be doing something good, the cadavar story is from dawn, letters, please do inform everyone about this.

Then again,a plastic one could be expensive, whay not assign a few jihadists for this. A few pak soldiers can dress up like the indians, shoot the jihadists on way to kashmir and give the cadavars to the college asking for it. Jihadists are happy, they have reached heaven, soldiers have their blood lust quenched, and the poor students have the cadavars. With a little bit of lateral thinking, even jihad can have useful outcomes.

Re: RSaxena # 71

You are right, but will our countries accept our help?

The problem is not a lack of help, but convincing the powers be that they need help!

Ciao!

Rsaxena#71:

I completely agree with you.

I am sure some of us donate atleast our