Joint Indo-Pak School History Textbook on the Web

A noble and a well timed idea!

Ciao!

Dear Ms. Khan and Mr. Daudpota

I hope you are aware of the fact that you are laying down foundations of a new religion. Keep your crucifixes handy, cuz your are gonna need them pretty soon.

I wish you best of luck though-I will post my (specific) response soon.

Ms. Khan and Hazrat Isa:

Good intentions. Read about this project sometime back --- not sure where.

You say:

3.2 Planning & Implementation

[.....Once the draft is agreed upon by all the authors it will it be put on the web site for comments by others....]

I am sure Chowk would volunteer to host the draft chapters. This will be the ideal interactive medium to discuss the book, predictable knee jerk reactions from the Indo-Pakistani Hum Aap Say Behtar HaiN Brigade aside.

regards,

temporal


PS: I read in an Indian Magazine interview that Hazrat Isa thinks inter-actors at Chowk are `high-brow` --- if he reads some of the comments on the Rahil Khan board he might change his mind. We are very much run of the mill down to earth (keechaRR?) type. Mostly:)

TO THE AUTHORS AND OTHER CHOWKWALLAS:

Is this project real? How will it be financed? Once completed, who will implement it, with what kinds of costs? Shouldn`t such kind of conflict-laden projects be undertaken after sufficient consciouness-raising efforts (or this is actually a conciousness-raising exercise)?

Maybe there are moments in our existence when some bold steps need to taken. Good luck!

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

My congratulation to authors for trying to make a positive contribution through this great idea. I wish them success and my best wishes. Such idea are long overdue in the history of our people. Now that Internet has provided us with open-mindedness and opportunities for honourable and people of high integrity to speak the truth, as it is( was). People like Prof. Mubarak Ali and Ayesha Jalal, Tariq Rehman and Dr. Udayakumar deserve all the help and respect, Chowkwallas can provide.

P.S. Make sure YLH does not write the chapter about Jinnah, ML and Indian Muslims. Two Chowkwallas who can really positively contribute would be Bilal Ahmad and FerozK. There should be a chapter about the Indian/ Pakistani relations/ cooperation among desi diaspora.

Once again my congratulations and best wishes for this noble and practical idea.

Certainly a good initiative.

However, must mention a little uneasy feeling. I studied hitory in a govt school in Delhi till 12th grade. Never read any of those references. Perhaps I should read the text books of Vidya Bharati to verify. (remember they are not state run schools, prescribed text books are same, - teacher/school controllers may have liberty to use their own books). A better comparison could have been between history books of state run schools in Pakistan with state run schools in India. Difference in quantity of examples quoted from Indian & Pakistani textbooks is also noticable.

Perhaps it is just an uneasy feeling..

Regards

Good proposal.

One problem though. Why does India always have to be equated with India?

I studied history in school (1981 to 1992) and in none of my books there was ANY Pakistan or Muslim bashing, no vilification of Jinnah, no slandering of Muslim conquerors except critical mentions of Aurangzeb and Mahmud Ghaznavi and few others.

The books have been reviewed since then, as they are always periodically done, so cant say what they are teaching now. But atleast when I studied, Humaari Textbooks Aapse Hazar Guna Behtar Thi (Temporal, this one is for you :)).

Satyavadi

How apropriate for this article to come up now.

A very well written article which identifies the basic problems...

I actually went and researched some of the history books in Pakistan...

The books I had studied for British GCE O level was

Pakistan: a Formative Phase published by Oxford. The book was generally unbiased in my opinion and maintained strict policy of sticking to the facts. The other book I read was ``Pakistan: A Political Economy`` by Nadeem Qaiser who was also the director of the school I went to as a 12 year old Bloomfield Hall. Again this book dealing with Post Partition Pakistan ... is very neutral though I remember a certain girl from the famous ``Monoo`` family objected to Book`s tilt towards Mr Bhutto in my O level class. These books I presented for scrutiny to my dear friends from India and Italy who had accompanied me to Pakistan.

Then I proceeded to the text that most people in SSC people in Pakistan read ``Mutaliah -e-Pakistan``.. there was obviously a tendency to criticize the Hindus but I found the book more historically inaccurate when it came to M A Jinnah`s life. It tries to present Jinnah as this

extremely religiously observant soldier of Islam thus destroying his total image. Obviously this is a result of the rewriting of History by Zia regime.

Yes I also noticed the ``Nazaria Pakistan`` which is almost shoved down children`s gutts... and then there was ultimately the Objective resolution...

I concluded that the book Mutaliah e Pakistan is definitely written with the nefarious purpose of exploiting religion.

When I was in fifth grade I had studied ``First steps in Our History`` By KA Haye. This book is basically a character building book for the children of Pakistan ... Whereas Jinnah remains the ultimate Hero ... the Non Violent Gandhi and his life are also emphasized as a great role model. That is why in my circle of friends Gandhi is respected, if not agreed with. I presented that book to my Indian and Italian friends` scrutiny also.

Finally the book I looked at was the Local equivalent called Muasharti Uloom (or social studies) ... its first few chapters dealt with

Pakistan and its creation ... to my disgust it was all about Islam and Islam ... and Just Islam ...

SO this is the sad state of affairs of books in Pakistan.

As I had mentioned earlier ... I can see the shortcomings of our history writing but Indian History writing isnt too far ahead either.. On the contrary they tend to make a Monter out of MA Jinnah when there really wasnt one...

By the way I have had the pleasure of being taught by Rubina Saigol ... at Bloomfield hall ... I believe she was one of the directors there and she substituted as our teacher for one semester ...

I remember doing a History project on Julius Caesar ... she gave me a B .. I was depressed.

Anyway Pakistani list looks good. Frankly I am ignorant of the Indian names ... but if they are as good as the Pakistani names on the list ... this is going to be one hell of a Book.. Inshallah ...

For History and its Objectivity...

First off, let me say that the authors are probably well meaning. They seem to believe that a symmetry exists when it comes to teaching history in India and Pakistan; that both are distorted and that an objective version exists that probably will fall somewhere in the middle of the two.

I disagree. History text books in India, while quite likely biased, tread very carefully on communal issues. In a way, history is used as a tool to paper over divisions.

The BJP version of history is not widespread and cannot become widespread since there are enough watchdogs making sure that it does not spill over.

Pakistan, on the other hand, is an entirely different matter. Much has been said about how the government-designed text books there tend to make villains out of everyone but the muslims.

A good starting point for the authors would be to attempt an `objective` (their quotes) text book that would replace the current Pak version of history. Once that is adopted by the English-speaking, english-reading class, translate that into Urdu and integrate into madrassa curriculum. Were you to succeed, you`d shame the Indians into following your lead. All the best!

The idea of a history jointly written by private citizens from Pakistan and India and with the goal of objectivity is brilliant. Even partial success in implementation would be a major step in the right direction.

God Speed.

Dear Foqia & Isa:

Your budget:

I would underwrite your entire budget, if you need. However, I need more details on this project.

South Asian Leadership Council:

I also feel that there is a need to set up a South Asian Leadership Council. such a council could be on the lines of similar councils that exist and are supported by Democratic and Republican parties to groom political leaders. South Asian Leadership Council could help develop secular and pluralistic leadership in South Asia. Would someone consider developing South Asian Leadership Council?

ANIL KAPURIA

Anil@Kapuria.COM

Good idea. I just hope it works out well.

What I don`t understand is the internet publishing part of it all. If the book is meant to teach youngsters the ``truth`` about the subcontinent`s history, why would you want it to be published on the net? Will these children and students be able to access it? Will they be able to understand it?

How about writing it, translating it into Urdu and Hindi, and publishing it IN PAPER to be distributed in schools and libraries in Pakistan and India. I`m sure you`ll find a company to publish it free of charge. And if not, I`m sure you`ll be able to collect funds for that purpose.

Internet publishing will only serve to inform a small percentage of well-to-do or internet savvy desis, not the masses in Pakistan and India who need the ``enlightenment`` the most.

scout

animika: #11: ``The BJP version of history is not widespread and cannot become widespread since there are enough watchdogs making sure that it does not spill over.``

It is very difficult for an outsider to figure out what the BJP stands for. I have visited their website many times, and have gone through all the pages there. This website is maintained by the BJP itself, so one would have to assume it represents exactly the picture the BJP wants to present. I think one can safely assume that it is the most authentic form of information about the ideas of the BJP. One can also assume it presents the BJP in its best light, i.e. exactly the way BJP wants to present itself.

There are way too many quotes and articles on this website to list here, that describe the BJP as a fundamentalist Hindu party. There are also writings on this site that describe the history of India as one in which the Muslims were basically savages:

``During the era of Islamic invasions, what Will Durant called the bloodiest period in the history of mankind, many Hindus gallantly resisted, knowing full well that defeat would mean a choice of economic discrimination via the jaziya tax on non- Muslims, forced conversion, or death. It is no wonder that the residents of Chittor, and countless other people over the length and breadth of Bharat, from present-day Afghanistan to present-day Bangladesh, thought it better to die gloriously rather than face cold-blooded slaughter. Hindus never forgot the repeated destruction of the Somnath Temple, the massacre of Buddhists at Nalanda, or the pogroms of the Mughals.

Thus, the seeds of todayUs Hindu Jagriti, awakening, were created the very instance that an invader threatened the fabric of Hindu society which was religious tolerance. The vibrancy of Hindu society was noticeable at all times in that despite such barbarism from the Islamic hordes of central Asia and Turkey, Hindus never played with the same rules that Muslims did. The communist and Muslim intelligentsia, led by Nehruvian ideologists who are never short of distorted history, have been unable to show that any Hindu ruler ever matched the cruelty of even a moderate Muslim ruler.`` (www.bjp.org)

I personally do not support the conquests of India by Muslim kings. And it is quite possible that the point of view expressed by the above article is an accurate view of history (it is definitely an accurate view of the BJP`s view of Indian history, since is straight off their website).

However, there is one thing I have yet to figure out. Everyone from India on Chowk seems to fall into two categories regarding the BJP. One group hates the BJP, and consders them extremists. The other group dislikes the BJP, and points out that India is actually being governed by a coalition. It states that the BJP is not as extremist as its own website indicates it to be. Or it points out that there are too many groups in India opposing the BJP, and hence the BJP, ``version of history,`` or the BJP philosophy, ``cannot become widespread.``

If everyone in India is either criticizing or apologizing for the BJP, then how exactly does the BJP end up winning all these elections; again and again and again. Obviously, someone is voting for them. Where exactly is that group, and its representatives? This group should be the largest group, since the BJP has a far larger representation in the Indian govt. than any other party. And it must believe in the BJP ideals that the BJP has put up in its manifesto and on its website (otherwise, it would not vote for the BJP).

After reading BJP`s literature (put out by the BJP itself), I am convinced the BJP is based on an extremist version of fundamentalism (this does not mean that the India society as a whole has been transformed into the BJP`s views). However, how can someone state, ``The BJP version of history is not widespread and cannot become widespread`` when so many non-Chowk Indians are voting for the BJP.

Any objective views from Indians will be appreciated.

SameerJB,

i think your idea about a chapter on the south asian diaspora is a good one, but the book will probably be a long time in the making. why not make a documentary?

Anil Kapuria,

your idea about a south asian leadership council is also interesting, but how would you go about it? under what umbrella? whose politics?

urstruly,

crucifixes? huh?

Really only a half-necessary thing, since we have repeatedly been informed that Indian history textbooks are completely objective and lack any bias whatsoever (I believe someone used the word `perfect`). Someone should tell Mr. Daudpota he may be wasting half his effort!

Still waiting for Prof. Hoodhboy to let us know if the committee he is part of is bringing about any changes in the Pakistani syllabi..