Hidden Hindus

hamidm, Umairr, Asif:

(..and forgive SM, I may be going beyond the issue at hand ....)

For a momemnt, let us come down to earth instead of barricading ourselves behind the Maginot Line of revelations of heavenly and earthly kinds.

If we strive to become `insaan` -- a decent hu(wo)man being first -- all else matters least. An `insaan` respects, defends and protects fellow insaan.

As Mahajirzadeh said somewhere -- pehlay Khuda phir Muhammed: pehlay insaan phir musalmaan.

regards,

temporal

PS: Jumhuriyat: Welcome back. Hope you stay. We need all voices lest the cacophony rules by default.

Umairr and Asif ............

.....i will grant you that there are many different translations of 47.4 and other such verses which clearly and categorically lay out the case for taking up arms against the Unbeliever ..... whether it is by ``smiting`` or condemning the poor kafir to hell-fire, the thesis is the same - an unrelenting hostility towards those who do not share the faith ..... I am sure we can come up with half a dozen hadiths and surahs which call for toleration but the overwhelming message cannot be denied ..... all of us are quick to quote `` there is no compulsion in religion``, but suffer from collective amnesia or blatant ignorance when it comes to other heavenly instructions that relegate the kafir to a second class status .........oh yes, the Caholics were worse than us, but they let Martin Luther lead them out of Stygia ........... the problem with us Muslims is that we have yet to find the loophole for Reformation ............ it is tough to do it when we are so eager to protect the Book in its velvet lined box ............. in the meantime scurrlous rascals like me can always blame Dawood for wrongly interpreting God`s word ................

Giving credit where it is due :

While it does not have directly anything to do with Pakistani minorities, Pakistanis can feel proud that they hosted a million or two Afghan refugees for a decade or more, without any real fuss, or the kind of self-congratulation that Europeans indulge in when they take in a few thousand refugees from some conflict that has its roots in their actions.

-arun gupta

Re: ylh

``that a political system truly according to the spirit of Islam would be a secular democratic system....``

Here we go again with the revisionist drivel. If ``Islam were interpreted as such and such and by so and so`` then we wouldn`t have 1,543 Jihads all over the world and the Israelis, Americans, Indians, Russians, and Phillipinos wouldn`t have been victims of Islamic terrorism.

And Louis Farrakhan and the KKK are just misunderstood. If people followed their ``true message`` then we would all see how loving and peaceful those people really are, right???

By ``your kind`` I meant Indians!

Devkant

I believe I answered your query about why there was a contradiction between the two posts. Please go and read it ... it must be somewhere in the rahil khan article .. in 400s I believe.

You really have no reason to call me a hypocrite. You really dont know me and to make a judgement is well, uncalled for!

Yasser

RE Cheema

You said: ``All this shows that blasphemy law is secular in origin and has no Islamic origin.``

I suppose you mean pagan or pre-islamic as opposed to secular. In a true secular environment, there is no place for blasphemy.

Pakistan is much the poorer for its maltreatment of the minorities. I asked people about this phenomenon right from my high school days and to a man [to women such a question proved non-relevant], they have been saying ``Islam is very protective of the minorities, *and it gave women the right of owning property``...ad infinitim.

I have said goodbye to these arguments and, therefore to Chowk. It is very painful to countenance these arguments, the self righteousness, the recitation of passages from the Q`ur`an, the a`ha`dees [no `th` for me. I have a language of my own!], the sunna[t], that are cited in these responses make me sick.

I say, ``I have said goodbye to Chowk``. But I appear today. It is as if one, after leaving a mohallah or a city, just happens to pass through it after years.

There were many other reasons for my departure from the Chowk a few months ago. The major reason was that I found the Hindus most vicious in their thinking and arguments.

And I found the Muslims most vicious in their thinking and arguments.

I could not visualize a world in which an irresistable force was acting on an immovable object. So, I left.

* Issi t`rh baat sé baat nikl`ti hai na![non sequitur]

Pakistan is much the poorer for its maltreatment of the minorities. I asked people about this phenomenon right from my high school days and to a man [to women such a question proved non-relevant], they have been saying ``Islam is very protective of the minorities, *and it gave women the right of owning property``...ad infinitim.

I have said goodbye to these arguments and, therefore to Chowk. It is very painful to countenance these arguments, the self righteousness, the recitation of passages from the Q`ur`an, the a`ha`dees [no `th` for me. I have a language of my own!], the sunna[t], that are cited in these responses make me sick.

I say, ``I have said goodbye to Chowk``. But I appear today. It is as if one, after leaving a mohallah or a city, just happens to pass through it after years.

There were many other reasons for my departure from the Chowk a few months ago. The major reason was that I found the Hindus most vicious in their thinking and arguments.

And I found the Muslims most vicious in their thinking and arguments.

I could not visualize a world in which an irresistable force was acting on an immovable object. So, I left.

* Issi t`rh baat sé baat nikl`ti hai na![non sequitur]

PAKISTANIS, PLEASE BE SILENT,

from dawn of today,

Minorities in India

THIS is in response to the article in opinion column of DAWN on 28th Sept titled ``Electoral system and the minorities`` by Khalid Rahman. He says ``the situation for minorities in India in education, employment, army, and other sectors, is worse than in Pakistan.``

This is really ridiculous. Can Ms Rahman tell us how many non-Muslim have been appointed as ministers at federal level since 1947 in Pakistan? Or how many non-Muslims have been in top posts in army, supreme court or other govt establishments?

If Mr Rahman prepares this list and compares that with a similar list of non-Hindu Indians at top positions in India, he would realise the plight of minorities in Pakistan. Pakistan has about 1.5% Hindus and 2% Christians, the same percentage as Sikhs in India. Now compare the Sikhs representation in Indian union with that of Hindus and Christians in Pakistan and you will have your answer. Babri mosque demolition was definitely a tragedy, but what of the hundreds of Hindu temples destroyed in Pakistan in last 50 years?

I`m not claiming that India is a perfect example of a secular country, but at least it honestly tries to be one in spite of all the problems. Riots do happen, but it should also be kept in mind that India has one billion population with 200 million members of the minority community.

Before I complete this letter let me refer to the last full scale war that India and Pakistan fought in 1971. The Indian Army Chief was General Sam Maneckshaw, a Parisi, the Western front was commanded by Lt Gen K.P. Candeth, a Christian Anglo-Indian, the Eastern front was commanded by Lt Gen J.S. Aurora, a Sikh, and General Aurora`s Chief of Staff was Major Gen J.F.R. Jacob, from a Jewish family of Calcutta. Now imagine that.

An Indian

Santa Clara, CA, USA

EXHAUSTED CHRISTIANS OF KERALA,

In the early forties in the southeren part of kerala many hindus, especially from the lower caste converted to christianity. At that time, it did a lot of good for the people, specifically in material and educational terms. It did not really alter their social standing, because in kerala even with in chrisinity new converts are looked down up on, considering the fact that St Thomas, a deciple of christ came to kerala and converted people.

When the children of these christians reached an age for university education, they realised that the `reservations` availabe for low caste people are not availabe to them, being christians. They went on a campaign, asking for reservation, they wanted to be treated as hindus, as though they belonged to the original caste.

Finall merxist govt. passed a legislation declaring them as a backward caste and named them ``exhausted christians``. With a million gods, hindus did not bother, another bearded god with a name jesus, what is the problem.

I never knew that ahmadias are `muslims` with only one belief different, they believe that there could be other profets. All of that crap in blasphemy laws are for this. I am ready to thank even allah for being born in an inclusive religion, not one that defines and creates kafirs and sends jihadists to kill them. Poor ahmadias, and even the educated on the chowk seem to concur that they are not muslims.

Please, somebody tell me the name of a drama in which Hafeez Fatima appeared. I should like to see her thobrra. Thank you.

The hallucinations of red sanguine dawns under the spell of hemp stuffed Pakora and Ghaiba Masih`s kuppie, makes sense. But who could have imagined that the change of Kaaba was as easy as peeing through the leg of a bell-bottomed pants.

krashid...#136...

i agree with more or less what u have written.

but when u say that we project issues of pakistan to suit our own frame of reference, don`t u think that u r being bais here. doesn`t this sort of thing happen in your country or for that matter in each and every country. doesn`t every country try and project its own good to its people and negative points about foes and enemies.

as far as indians being with the state is concerned, let me try and put it in a different way. we in india believe that india is on a threshold of a major economic boom, the kind seen in china in the 80`s and 90`s. for this to happen, the state has to play a major role and hence we r supporting our govt and hoping that they will not let us down. so far i feel that the govt is doing reasonably well. for me, Mr. Vajpayee is possibly the best thing to happen to india after independence.

about the pakistani frame of reference, i don`t think i am in the right position to comment. but i guess i would agree with what u have mentioned.

``But I think in India the phenomenon of labelling is very common even by educated people, which is reflected on this board.``

why just in india, labelling is common everywhere. hasn`t pakistan been unoffcially labelled as a terrorist state, but does that mean that everyone in pakistan is a terrorist???

why just pick on indians and similarly i feel its not right to just pick on pakistanis. both our countries have more important issues to deal with than to fight each other.

ylh #143....

was i the first to get personal with u and when i did call u a hypocrite, was it without good reason????

but anyway....u still haven`t answered my simple question.

what do u mean by my kind of people?????

devkant.

Lubna ji and Shandana ji . . . we are not having shortage of khakee chaddees in India at all . . . so if you are wanting to take on soul distributorship for khake chaddees for Pakistan (my father having some land near Falettis Hotel he is saying) and can help me set up registered office and open bank account and find lawyer etc . . . then maybe we will stop the Indian Army (who wear green by the way) from para dropping all variety of khakee chaddees over Orangi and Clifton and Defence and Bin Qasim (I am learning about these places from CIA guide to pakistan which is also giving me secret telephone numbers of all actresses in pakistan and that little girl with jhumkas on PTV who is saying all the time in git-mit git-pit English accent oh so lovely) . . . also last time I am seeing Pakistani beaches on Discovery Channel I am not seeing any ladies in chaddees but I am seeing many VW Beetle cars so maybe we will design chaddees for them (the cars) too?

And what is this about gaanja and Taliban? Oh, I understand, mutual co-existence . . . do you know, the pusher never pulls?

Rsaxena

I really dont want to engage you in any discussion

but

1)Pakistan was not made for Islam ... the truly Islamic fundamentalist parties like Ahrar and Jamaat e Islami were active against its creation calling Pakistan Kafiristan and Jinnah KafireAzam.. Ahrar, the extremist party, was actually in alliance with the great ``Mahatma`` himself.

2)Pakistan was not named Islamic Republic of Pakistan till 1956 and it was dropped again by Ayub in 1962... Pakistan became republic of Pakistan... to appease the fundoos Bhutto`s constitution called it the Islamic Republic of Pakistan ... but Bhutto style Islamic republic we can stand... its Zia style republic which is bad.

Hamidm

Yes, generally there has been a rise in ``religious piety`` but as my friends and I were discussing it ... it has more to do with Economic conditions of Pakistan.. the rich elite is perhaps getting more and more westernized... Sir you can have better than just decent gin and tonic in Pakistan ... the poor people with harsh socioeconomic conditions are becoming more and more Islamicized.

However what maybe the level of ``religious morality`` which seems to be on the rise... I am optimistic of Pakistan`s political structure to move towards secularization as espoused by Jinnah.

With that said, I also believe and we can get into the finer religious points of this later.. that a political system truly according to the spirit of Islam would be a secular democratic system....

Yasser Latif Hamdani