Hidden Hindus

RE: Fairdinkum# 139

I am glad to see that everybody living behind that mole hill is living happily ever after.

I don’t think any analysis of interacts is needed to see that they were totally crap – mine included. Shandana is justified in expressing her frustration. She has delivered the message quite brilliantly. And there was nothing in the interacts worth responding to .. so how is she suppose to guide/direct the discussion? And what discussion?

SameerJB #128

Hello Sameer,

If bhels are/were nomadic people, how do they constitute such a large agricultural workforce in rural Sindh? I know that they are forcibly employed or forced to work as slave laborers, but since they lived a nomadic life, how were the landlords able to get hold of them?

Also, can you shed some light on the religion/beliefs of Ranger or oodh people? I have seen large number of oodh people in Karachi living a nomadic life style. I suppose they are found elsewhere in Pakistan too – not sure though.

Your comments would be greatly appreciated on that. I prayed hard for Pak. hockey team, but I think my genes are too diluted :)

Sadhna,

I don’t see anything controversial or offensive in your post #21.

Pullu,

Thanks for your kind comments… re disgusting people etc. I concur. But sometimes, it is not so easy my friend.

A colleague who had two masters degrees and a PhD from US of A once told me that the proof of validity of Muslim faith is that faces of Muslims emit light, whereas faces of Kafirs are devoid of any light.

I once went for Jummah prayers to my University mosque. The priest (who was, and still is a professor at the department of electrical and electronics engineering, originally from India) was talking about the harmful effects of eating haram food…as an example, he pointed to Chinese faces describing them as pig look alike (because they eat pig meat a lot). The enlightened Jammat (people who were gathered to offer prayers) giggled.

Dear Shandana Minhas,

Please don`t withdraw your article. Why do some people call you ``slink``?

Interim, Dear Lubna Devi ji, I am arranging 2-Para Maratha Lights to drop khakee chaddees of all sizes, A front for gents and g-string type for ladies ji over Karachi Harbour to start with. Each chaddee will have wrapped in it a quarter nip of Old Monk rum with instructions on the label on how to consume same with Ganga Jal, which I shall then take the sole distributorship for all of Pakistan for. Refills will only be available if people display their chaddees, and knowing that it may be a problem for genteel pakistani ladies to flash khaki g-string in public, we will make special counters for them behind the zenana.

(Ghalib ne kaha tha: Marne pe meree maut ke baad, kabar meree banana, under or next to the zanana``)

Once I have launched khaki chaddees succesfully in all of Pakistan, then we will go publi, issue shares and ESOPs and do ``scratch & sniff``, but not on used chaddees.

This will end scabies too.

Devkant #130

I think you realize this.

Now my thinking is there is too much projection from Indian side.i.e Presenting issues of Pakistan according to their own frame of reference. Also it seems that Indians are very much with their state, probably because they think that state has delivered to them or feel part of it.

Also there is lot of misinformation (Thanks to the Urdu not in vogue in India)

Like witness of non-Muslim half than Muslim. `J`` is for Jalim and `Z` is for Zihad:).

Also on Pakistan side our frame of reference is different. Like state right, particularly in Kashmir appeal to us which is more near to our experience and struggle, than minority rights, which we don`t come across. Also Country is not as dear to us because of our experience than people`s right which is trampled everyday.

I think I have presented the difference in outlook and probable reasons for that.

But I think in India the phenomenon of labelling is very common even by educated people, which is reflected on this board.

We cannot expect other people to think the same way as we. But expect some civility in discussion.

............... so my seven year old comes back from Sunday School and solemnly declares, `` Christians are Kafirs``

....okay. I always knew that K was for Kafir, and the kafir usualy had a pony tail on top of a bald head and an upside-down swastika on his forehead... but I always thought that the Christians were Okay - ahl`e-kitab and all that ......... my best boyhood buddy is a Christian with whome I shared many a Christmas and Eid and who now happily shares his liquor license with me on my trips back home... is he a kafir too ? Perplexed, mortified and quite distraught, I turn to the ultimate source of all wisdom .... my dog-eared and heavily underlined copy of Dawood`s Koran which sits on the book-shelf between Midnight`s Children and the Buddha of Suburbia, but far away from those rascals - Russell and Ibn-Warraq ..............of course, like all good Muslims, the real thing lies in all its ornate velvet encased splendor on top of the book-shelf, to be taken down for the once a week visit by the Qari who, for seventy-five dollars an hour, teaches the kids to read in authentic Arabic ....

...... so I feverishly look for some argument - some little piece of evidence, which I can use to counter the moon-faced Islamic nuns at Sunday School who are, I fear, turning my sweet little daughter into a flaming religious bigot ...... so I look, and look and look ............

.........Lord, show me a sign...tell me it is okay to break bread with my childhod buddy, John ..... I don`t need a burning bush - just a few words that tell me it is okay to live amongst the Christians .... I know I am supposed to lay off Big Macs and study the ingredients on a tube of Colgate - but is it okay to go to John`s house in Islamabad ?.... the city established to honor you.....

lo and behold! ................ I find the passage - but it breaks my heart - for now I know John is doomed - destined for the big tandoor in the sky.....damned to hell-fire for eternity...... for there it is - clear as daylight :

``They surely disbelieve (la-gad kafar `llazina) who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers (al-Ma`idah 5:72).``

............. what do I do? my buddy is doomed -my little fanatic is right...

SM #120:

Hey kiddo, the air getting to you too?

Where is the take-no-prisoner Shandy?

love,

t

Re: Urstruly # 131

The bigots on Chowk know who they are and it was not intended as a blanket statement. I am sorry if you read that way!

As to the bigots having a voice, they are entitled to it. They have a right to say what they want; and I have a right to disagree with them!

Ciao!

Pullu, Shandana

I tried expressing my thoughts on the article in a single post #21. It seems to have caused a lot of offense, but if you expect me to keep taking crap quietly just to keep these boards pristine and pure for more crap, I`m sorry I`m not your person.
I am taking your advice and moving on.

Sadhana

RE: Ferozk # 125

Whereas I agree with the encouragement part of your post, I disagree with the conclusions that you are drawing out of the interacts. Lets explore the following possibilities:

1. Most or atleast a good number of interactors are bigots blinded by hate and they wont let such an effort to be successful (your contention). OR if they are not bigots then they do not know how to interact.

2. Author has failed to make a case. She was not able to convey the message that she intended or probably she failed to clarify her objectives that she intended to achieve through this article. A lack of interacts on her part suggests that she did not want to direct this discussion. So the discussion followed a ``natural`` course (of its own).

3. May be that was the best that this article could deliver.

I am under the impression that Chowk is a utopian dream come true, where everybody is free to present their opinion. I think a bigot has an opinion too.

ylh....

``Reply #: 82 ylh

You have the nerve ... after what your kind did to me on the other thread... I think you can see for yourself how your brethren started attacking me on that thread when I hadnt gone personal yet (ie till reply 362)``

may be u can start by enlightening me on what u mean by my kind. as far as i can remember i have never physically met u or seen u and even our interactions on the net have been very limited. so now aren`t u the one making genralizations.

and as far as attacking u personally is concerned, i think u can go back to my post in the concerned thread and see for your self why it happened.

``With that said, I really dont care if your kind has any respect for Pakistanis or not ... not like we are talking about humans ... stick to the topic or just leave!``

my friend, if we r not humans, then i`m sure there`s no word in the dictionary to describe u.

and as far as leaving is concerned, chowk is not your private property as very well written by someone on this thread.

a sincere advice....u dish out garbage, u`ll get back garbage. (i hop[e u understand this)

krashid...reply 112...

u r right mate. my respect or disrespect does not have any significance. but it is unimportant people like me who when collectively believe in something that issues start assuming significance.

now if ylh (reply 48, i think) can have respect for all indians only because of one of his indian friend, then isn`t it very much possible that someone else can have disrespect for pakistanis just because of ylh.

``People might respect you in your country because of a very good human rights record in Punjab, Kashmir Assam etc. ``

and as far as human rights is concerned, lets not wash our dirty linens in public. the human rights record in your country is as good if not better than my country.

take care

devkant.

You propogandists should take a break from this mindless bickering once in a while and think about this:

Heard a 70-year old lady from India say the other day that life was in some ways better when the Brits were around. Corruption was limited, disease was checked, civil hygiene was maintained, and trains ran on time. How sad it is that the subcontinent is now in such a pathetic and unhuman state that independence is secondary to dignified survival. Disgusting. For all our posturing and claims to fame, most of Pakistan and India are now the filthiest places on earth.

And neither country could do more than a bronze medal in Sydney while tiny, starving African countries won 5 or 6 times as many.

Hang your heads in shame because that Taj Mahal and a hundred IT billionaires are shadowed by the stench of urine in our airports and the plight of over half of our illiterate population.

Shandana(#120): I share your frustration for both the quality and contents of responses to one very good thought provoking article. I thank you for posting your article here because I missed reading it at TFT.

It is naive for many people to think that their name callings, personal attacks, spamming and overly aggressive attitude by cluttering the response section will somehow be rewarded by more people choosing to interact with them. Let me utter it plainly; it is a big turn off. I am certain most people just look at the respondent alias and ignore it right away. I can say the same for 588 messages to a very nice review by Rahil Khan. The best strategy to stop this stampede is to not response.

The plight of Bhels (Bhils in India), is probably the most distressful and disturbing among many of the discriminations going on in our part of the world. The cases of Christian, Ahmadis, honor-killing are much less than what goes on with a whole class of people on routine basis. They are mostly bonded laborers and live under terrible conditions, as bad as slaves during the medieval times. They are often chained while at work and even chained to poles at night for the fear of running away. A small debt taken even out by their grandparents is exaggeratingly inflated which they can never pay-off to the land owning class of their masters. Murdering or raping their women does not make it to any media outlet. Hina Gilani is one of the few Human Rights Activists who talk about them.

Bhels are low caste Hindus with nomadic life style. They are found at the border regions of Sindh, Gujrat and Rajisthan. Sindhis do not consider Sindhi enough, Rajisthan does not consider them Rajput enough and Gujrat does not consider them Gujjus. Even before the partition, Sindhi Hindus from business community and upper caste hindus did not do anything for Bhels and same can be said of modern day Hindu population of Sindh.

Muslims in general accept Christians and Jews as the people of the ``Book`` but most do not have similar feeling toward Hindus, even if they may be their cousins going back to 10-12 generations. It has been influencing inter-religious relationship terribly from the Muslims side. Compare a Pakistani Muslim marrying a white Christian or Jew versus marrying a Hindu girl. The guy with Christian or Jewish wife will present her as a coveted trophy to his folks (during his trips to Pakistan). He would often say, there were so many white guys after her but she chose me because she fell in love with me. The reality may be that you were the only hope for her. Now, on the other hand, I happen to know couple of Pakistanis married to Hindu girls. They take their wives to Pakistan on Passports with fake Muslim names. They try to hide her religion as much as possible and try their best, almost apologetically, to convince their folks that she really does not care about her religion and the children would be Muslim. What a double stadard?

I have also known Hindu men with Muslim wives. They are, at best, very liberal minded with religion.

KRashid,

Post#114

Please dont talk about projection. Ever since I`ve known your posts on Chowk, you have nothing but hateful & derisive about India. So your original opinion of India has never been good to begin with. In fact,putting down India ,esp Hindus, is so second nature to you, you dont even realise how insulting you are. Not that we give a damn about what you feel about our country.

What gauls me is how you stand up in righteous indignation whenever an Indian gives you a taste of your own medicine.

If you live in a glass house, dont throw stones at others.

slink #re 120

Your disappointment is understandable. There are elements here who will make ``s/h/it`` out of anything. The discussion ought to have be high on emotions centering around nothing but human life but then..

There are many chowkwallahs who indulge in meaningful discussion with out any slander or accusations. But like in real life they have taken a beating, migrated to other articles or chosen to remain silent spectators.

While ``who barks loudest`` contest continues in almost all articles.

But your request is harsh by any standards.

fairdinkum #re 121

Very nice post. It was touching, almost like a short story. Some people can be very disgusting and the irony is you cannot disown them; particularly when they are our own people. How I wish we could!

Just because India does not treat Muslms well { agreed for a moment } how can anybody justify the treatment meted to hindus there? Or in reverse can Indians justify... NO.

We must treat our people well just for what they actually are: Human Beings. If it means crticizing my country, my people, my religion then there`s nothing wrong with it.

Jay #re summing all your posts in all the articles

You write well, no doubt. BUT why can`t you discuss the relevant topic. if you want to have a one to one fight,then chose another arena for yourself. If you think u r putting anybody down here then you are only amusing yourself. It`s not as simple as that. Your posts can be much better and lively; you can discuss the same things albiet in a different manner..try..try once.

Sadhana

Aapko kya ho gaya?

Aap tho aisey na the..? :(

Keechad mein pathar phenkogi, tho chheetein tum par bhi girengi.

Move on.

Pullu

Re Slink # 120

Courage Slink!

I agree with you completely that this article of yours and its intent has been mis-argued by the people who are so blinded by hate of each other that it is pathetic.

Slink, take this article and the one on a joint Indo-Pak history text book and you will find that the only thing, which unites us, Pakistanis and Indians, is hate. We feed off each others hate! The reaction, which your article got should was an accepted one on Chowk.

I think that Purple was right when in his/her post s/he suggested that people did not even bother to read the article before before reacting tho their knee-jerk phobias and myopias.

I was really dismayed to read your post suggesting that the Chowk staff retract your article. That, my friend, is conduct unbecoming your character! I have never seen you so agiated and I am certain you must have been really disgusted by the replies posted.

If it is any comfort, there are a lot of people on Chowk, from both sides, who applaud your article as a pioneering attempt to highlight the plight of the Hindus community of Pakistan. Please do not give up the fight and vacate the arena. We need more people like you, who can articulate human empathy instead of santifying hate, in South Asia if we are to amend our erring ways of the past.

If a water fall can start with a single drop of water, one person`s ability to change another person`s perceptions can change the world. The most powerful weapon in this world is the power of the human mind and those who know how to wield it, will be the ones who will sieze the future.

My friend, have courage to tread the path you have opted for knowing that it is really hard, specially, when you are the one leading yourself by the compass of your own convictions and the directions of your personal conscience!

Ciao!

re: er, what ?

I can`t decide if this is tragically funny or just tragic. I mean anyone who has paid the slightest attention to the article itself would have to wonder whether the interactors have even glanced at it.

quite quite mad.