Hidden Hindus

To all!

Even if Sadhna is on payroll of RAW let her earn her share.

There are armymen earning their share by killing Kashmiris.

It is one`s own choice, whether they want to earn by selling their conscience for little money. Or if they are fool enough to be patriotic, let them. Todays guns in Kashmir and Assam will be used somewhere else tomorrow. As it has been used in past in Punjab and Tamil and Nagaland etc.

Let some people die like lion. Let some people live like jackal.

But I don`t think Sadhna can be a RAW agent.

It will be great injustice to all interactors on Chowk who are here to discuss their thoughts freely.

Pragmatix

Well sir that is our counter to fantastic Hindoo-fundoo conspiracy...(Gandhi-Ataullah shah bukhari alliance 1930)

We send the fundoos against the Hindoos in Kashmir ... so that the fundoos get what they want .. sending Hindoos to hell and getting heaven for themselves...

As for us the secular Pakistanis, followers of the so called ``KafireAzam`` Jinnah, are sitting on the sideline watching this war between the followers of the devout ``Mahatma`` and the remnants of the Ahrar Party ... only 70 years ago the bapus of both sides had set out as allies against the secular Godless Muslim in name so called Kafir e Azam Jinnah ... we can only sit aside and smile

Politics!

Rediff special

http://www.rediff.com/news/1998/sep/10jinna2.htm

Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State to be

ruled by priests with a divine mission`

Jinnah`s ideas about Pakistan

remained vague. Vagueness

was both the strength and weakness of the

Pakistan movement. It became all things to

all men, drawing in a variety of people for

different reasons; but it also meant that once

Pakistan was achieved there would be no clear defining parameters.

During the last year or two of his life, Jinnah had begun to sharpen his

concept of Pakistan. He travelled extensively and spoke tirelessly on

radio and in public.

These speeches, together with what I have called this Gettysburg

address, reveal that several themes are repeated again and again. The

first is the unequivocal Islamic nature of Pakistan, drawing its

inspiration from the Quran and the holy Prophet. This is the vision of an

Islamic society which would be equitable, compassionate and tolerant,

and from which the `poison` of corruption, nepotism, mismanagement

and inefficiency would be eradicated. Pakistan itself would be based on

the high principles laid down by the Prophet in Arabia in the seventh

century. Although Jinnah had pointed out the flaws in Western-style

democracy, it was still the best-system of government available to

Muslims.

Jinnah unequivocally did not want a theocratic state run by mullahs. In a

broadcast to the people of the United States of America recorded in

February 1948, Jinnah made his position clear: `In any case, Pakistan is

not going to be a theocratic State to be ruled by priests with a divine

mission. We have many non-Muslims-Hindus, Christians and Parsees --

but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and

privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the

affairs of Pakistan.` When his enthusiastic admirers addressed him as

`Maulana Jinnah` he put them down, saying: `I am not a maulana, just

plain Mr Jinnah.`

Tolerance towards the minorities is another theme in his speeches.

Jinnah had regularly reminded his Muslims audiences of what Islam

maintains: `Our own history and our Prophet have given the clearest

proof that non-Muslims have been treated not only justly and fairly but

generously.`

Jinnah`s statements about the minorities (whether Muslims in India or

Hindus in Pakistan) are significant: `I am going to constitute myself the

Protector-General of the Hindus minority in Pakistan.` He spent his first

and only Christmas in December 1947 as a guest of the Christian

community, joining in their celebrations. In the one act he incorporated

the rituals of the minority community into Pakistani consciousness. (It is

a far cry from the somewhat pointed distancing of Pakistani leaders

from the rituals and customs of the minorities in contemporary

Pakistan.) Although pressed for time, in Dhaka he met a Hindu

delegation, in Karachi and Quetta a Parsee one, assuring them of his

intention to safeguard their interests.

The other theme was the need to check

provincialism which was already rearing

its head. In his speeches Jinnah stressed

the evils of provincialism, which he

warned would weaken the foundations of

the state, for example at Peshawar and

Dhaka. In Pakistan people assume that the movement for ethnic

assertion is recent, a product of Pakistan. On the contrary, such

movements existed before the creation of Pakistan, as is clear in a letter

to Jinnah of 14 May 1947, from G H Hidayatullah, a Sindhi leader

based in Karachi: `Some enemies of my wife and myself have been

making statements in the press that we two are advocating the principle

that Sind is for the Sindhis only. This is entirely false and baseless. Both

of us are ardent supporters of Pakistan, and we have given public

expression to this. Islam teaches universal brotherhood, and we entirely

subscribe to this ... All this is nothing but false propaganda on the part of

the enemies of the League.`

A week later, Abdus-Sattar Pirzada issued a statement making clear that

Pakistan would be the home for all Muslim immigrants from India:

`Sind has been the gateway of Islam in India and it shall be the gateway

of Pakistan too.`

Yet Jinnah sailed into an ethnic storm. In a momentous encounter in

Dhaka, the capital of the province of East Pakistan (the future

Bangladesh), he insisted that Urdu and Urdu alone would be the

national language, although he conceded the use of the provincial

language. Bengali students murmured in protest. The language

movement would grow and in 1952 protesting students would be killed

and provide the first martyrs. In time a far wider expression of ethnic

discontent would develop at the imagined and real humiliation coming

from West Pakistan and in particular the Punjab. But that was in the

future. Jinnah had for the time being hung on to his idea of a united

Pakistan, united in a political but also cultural sense.

When he made these speeches he was an old man, and he knew he

was dying; they were his last words. What makes a last testament valid

is the fact that the speaker is about to die, about to meet his maker. A

person`s last words are therefore considered authentic; event the law

accepts them as evidence. We can thus believe in the sincerity of

Jinnah`s speeches in the last months of his life which establish that he

was moving irrevocably towards his Muslim culture and religion.

Those who argue that Jinnah was cynical and

exploited religion and custom need to understand

the one year he had in Pakistan before he died.

Consider his position after the creation of Pakistan.

He was by far the most popular and most powerful

man in the country, the revered Quaid-I-Azam of

Pakistan, respected by millions of people. If he had

decided to defy tradition and custom, he would

have got away with it. He could have dressed, spoken or eaten in any

way he wanted and still been venerated. There was too much affection

for him to be shaken by anything.

The example of Kemal Ataturk, who rejected Muslim culture and

tradition in Turkey -- another father of the nation -- comes to mind. But

Jinnah took the opposite route. He may have started life at one end of

the spectrum in terms of culture and tradition, but by the finish he was

at the other end of it.

satyavadi:#91

I take exception to any anal-retentive self-denial (forgive me for adding the Merriam-Webster`s definition here - ``a restraint or limitation of one`s own desires or interests``). But for all we know, they are racing with time to self-destruct. As we will - if we dont `act` on issues like Bengal floods and Andhra farmers` suicide, that happen year after year after year. (And then there`s the public accountability of the leaders.)

A much more pressing concern of mine ....

Jinnah, Ataturk and Musharraf

By Kunwar Idrisp>

IN admiring Kamal Ataturk, General Pervez Musharraf was in an illustrious company - that of Mohammad Ali Jinnah. By

apologetically retracting from that admiration, Musharraf has fallen back into the ranks of countless soldiers and politicians

who let expediency have better of their conviction and thus lost their place in history.

Disillusioned by the trends of Indian politics and futile deliberations in the first roundtable conference, Mr Jinnah settled

down in London to practise law in the Privy Council. The second roundtable conference, which too he attended, only

added to that disillusionment for it found no solution to communal representation. He decided not to return to India.

It was Kamal Ataturk`s biography ``Grey Wolf``, published in 1932, that rekindled in him an urge to return to the turmoil of

Indian politics, leaving the comfort of Hampstead and the frolicsome company of his only teen-age daughter Dina.

If Ataturk could transform Turkey from a decadent sultanate under the tutelage of Western powers to an enlightened nation-

state, Jinnah thought he could do the same for the Indian Muslims. What Kamal had achieved on horse-back he could

achieve on the conference table, yet Jinnah shared Kamal`s vision of a state which was free both from external intervention

and internal bigotry.

Turkey is a part of Europe. Pakistan is far away. With that difference in culture but shared history the two countries should

have evolved as nation-states with similar interests and goals. That idea got a short-lived fillip on Musharraf assuming

power. It has since been squelched, it appears, for a long time to come. The Turkish prime minister has now floated the

concept of a secular bloc common to Europe and Asia in which Turkey and India should play a leading role. Speaking at

Tagore`s Shantiniketan, Bulent Ecevit said the world`s second largest Muslim population was living in peace in India only

because of Indian`s democratic and secular way of life. He chose not to mention Shiv Sena and Bal Thackray, the mortal

enemies of the Muslims, because the state disowns them.

Turkey was Pakistan`s best friend and oldest ally. Now it is seeking a new comprehensive alliance with India while ECO

(old RCD) and Cento lie moribund. There could be no greater political and emotional setback for Pakistan. Turkey is not

alone in that. Viewed in terms of trade and investment, perhaps, every Muslim country, with the exception of the Taliban`s

Afghanistan, is now closer to India than to Pakistan.

There could be no severer verdict on Pakistan`s failure in pursuit of Pan-Islamism and Jihad. For our own people, the state

intervention in matters religious has divided them on sectarian lines at the cost of national cohesion and economic progress.

To win the state patronage, even the sects have splintered. A conference of the majority sect at Multan, which its sponsors

claimed was international in character and attended by a million, was described by the Noorani group of the same sect as

``nothing more than an April fool joke.`` Ironically, the conference demanded the restoration of the usurped rights of the

majority sect. If that is the feeling of the 80 per cent of the population, the grievances of the remaining 20 per cent spread

over many sects and religions can be well imagined. The situation clearly demands an immediate and complete end of the

state`s involvement in religion.

The advent of the Islamic new year has been marked by three sectarian deaths and terrorist bombings. Preceding that were

long lists of religious scholars and orators published by the provincial governments and district magistrates banning their

entry or externing them. They all preach harmony but inflame passions to murder.

Schism has become a part of Islam as it has of all religions. Left to be debated in seminaries it imparts vigour to faith which,

in turn, helps in contending with the challenges posed by the changing times without abandoning the basic tenets of the

belief. In Pakistan, the state in its ambition to become the arbiter of faith has impaled itself on the hook of sectarianism at

home and terrorism abroad.

Every citizen and institution must now contemplate whether the doctrine of combining state with religion, which Pakistan

has increasingly followed, has made us morally better and materially more prosperous than every other Muslim country

which has kept the two apart, with Malaysia at one end and Tunisia at the other

I have found it. My self respect is back. Since I post so rarely, I must be the only authentic person here.

All the rest of you are letter-writing corporations. The question is, does IRS know?

sac,

You, however, punctured my overextended balloon. All these years, being an ugly was burden enough. Now that I realize I may be the only ugly north Indian amidst an ocean of good-lookers, I am crestfallen.

More seriously, since we are talking of generalizations (and it is true--all my Sindhi friends, in the US and in India, are *$&@!-ly rich!), how about this one?

While Pakistanis and (with at least one exception) north Indians cornered the ``looks,`` south Indians and Bengalis (despite Jyoti Basu)walked away with the ``brains.``

Is that too ``inflammatory?`` :)

Also I believe that what Ali meant was that generally Sadna`s posts are much more frequent. SUrely you can go back and take the statistics for the last 50 articles or even a hundred and you will see that my average posts/article fall dramatically ....

Yasser

Satyavadi

And by the way, I believe that there is a Hindoo fundoo conspiracy not a Hindu jewish conspiracy ..

Hindoo fundoo conspiracy suggests a devious alliance between Islamic and Hindu fundamentalists against Pakistan...

I had originally suggested it as a jest... but the more you read objective or even anti Pakistan history (eg Wilfred Cantfield Smith), you can observe it clearly...

I wonder what the great ``secular`` Mahatma was doing allying himself with the Islamic Fundamentalist ``Ahrar`` party against the ``Kafir-e-Azam`` Mr Jinnah????? in the early 30s.

Ref Cantfield`s book Modern Islam in India ...

Seriously the book is one heck of a biased opinionated crap but facts do betray the truth sometimes...

Anyway Mr Satyavadi .. my invitation is open to you.

Yasser Hamdani

Satyavadi

You arguing baselessly. Yes the undivided Punjab had 48% minority population...

NWFP had almost close 99% Muslim Population.

Baluchistan had 100% Muslim population. Sindh had

close to 75% Muslim population...

Adding up the prepartition Punjab province, Sindh Province, NWFP, and Baluchistan had ``71%`` Muslim population. So the total minority population in in the state of Pakistan would have been 29% ... had

PUNJAB stayed entirely with Pakistan. Now when Punjab was partitioned, a majority of Non Muslims

who by an estimate would have made up 10% of west Pakistan or the current Pakistan ... left for India... The remaining are what we have today.

Unlike what you want to believe, no we didnot start finishing off our minorities... I believe the charge is more valid in the case of Ahmadis

(who till then were seen as Muslims atleast by the constitution and also according to Jinnah).

Satyavadi you know what, I ll let bygones be bygones... I invite you to visit me in Pakistan and I ll show you around. You can judge for yourself the so called ``hatred`` and ``bias`` in Pakistan ... I believe you know my email address.

I ll take you to Nankana sahib, ranjeet singh`s tomb, Hassan Abdal, all the Hindu temples you want to see... and the churches... you will be able to judge for yourself.

Are you just going to turn the other cheek or will you in future (not within this year though I have a lot to do) choose to give me a chance to show you hospitality mine and Pakistan`s ,

Yours sincerely

Yasser Hamdani

RE: Sadna

Atleast you take a joke like a man :)

I`m not sure what has suddenly made me the `Hidden Hindu` in the recent interacts, but here is something they taught us in spy school(the enemy guys across the aisle used to chant it too)

``Muhabbat ki baazi me, tab lutf aaye
Na tum maat khaao na hum maat khaaye`n``

-someone else

Something to do with not ending up with MAD they said.
Sadhana

RE: ali1# 69

There is no shred of doubt left in my mind man. Reply# 95 is worth noting.

Re: Pathetic conspiracy theorists

Some people here have suggested that judging by the frequency of her responses, Sadhana must be working 60 hrs/ Wk and on the payroll of the dreaded RAW.

A few interesting statistics gleaned from the Rahil Khan board:

Total no. of responses: 577

Responses by Sadhana: 38

Responses by Ylh: 164

Ylh contributed almost 30% of the responses!!

If Sadhana`s responses can be construed as 60 hrs/ wk of work then Ylh`s would be 259 hrs/ Wk... that`s a full time staff of 6 people! Looks like the ISI has a whole cell devoted to Chowk headed by Ylh!

And another thing....

This time I wont use the expression `once and for all` because I know I am going to have to say this over and over again because nobody seems to get it.

This is not a Pakistani site.

OK ylh.... for your benefit... again:

This is not a Pakistani site.

So please stop asking Indians to leave this `Pakistani` site. What gives you more authority here than Sadhana? Why don`t you leave?

Regards.

P.S. Nobody but the Chowk Staff has any authority on who uses this space. Nobody! And the reason why they let Indians interact here is not because they are dildar generous Pakistanis who let the poor Indians come here out of the goodness of their heart! The reason why they let Indians interact here is the same one why they let Pakistanis interact here. Because here everyone is welcome. Is that tough to swallow?

Actually I have it on good authority from the neighbourhood shaka that almost 80% of all Muslims in Pakistan are actually Hindus who changed name and religion after 1947 to grab land and camels and stuff like that . . . and that these guys are just waiting for a paradrop of khaki chaddees all over Karachi and Lahore and Multan and Changaa Mangaa and also Peshawar, Pindi and Kabul to come out true Hindus to make Akhand Bharat a reality from Teheran and baghdad on one side to hanoi on the other not to forget Solomon islands and Madagascar as well as Antartica, because proof has been found that Hinduism was the state religion in Socotra from where it went to Antarctica so all you real Muslim pakistanis on chowk need to start getting really really worried alternately you can buy your own khaki chaddees . . .

RE: Satyavadi # 89

See how a smile can work wonders. If others dont have one you give it to them :)

Fairdinkum:

That was just one of my covers-what you know ;)

PS: Sadhna, yes, I was very disappointed today. Slightly depressed too… I was really looking forward to my trip. and you know it was for work too…but they still rejected me… they have no objections on goras going there…. That was really embarrassing for me ……. I guess I should have rang Advani first :)