Hidden Hindus

RE: Sab # 235

Sabin
Have you lost your pacifier (again)?

:)

Asma Jahangir is probably a true humanist and a patriot. Her work for the minorities in Pakistan is outstanding. My personal memory of her however is from her appearance on the TV show ``Sarhad: a dialogue between Pakistani and Indian intellectuals`` in which not only did she hold her own against the Indians ... but clearly came out the more convincing one in the end .. especially on the Kashmir issue.

Jiye Asma Jahangir!

Cowasjee for the President

Bapsi Sidwah for Prime Minister

Hamidm,

Honestly I really like your views on things in general. Unlike most pseudo-intellectuals, you denounce the status quo based on certain undeniable facts.

Understanding and educating one`s own self is continuous process however, as so many people on chowk tell me everyday. The study of Kemalism has perhaps set you on the right track but you see, Kemalism is purely a political ideology. Maybe its time to read Averroes?

Yasser Hamdani

Chowkstaff

Yeah, just be careful next time...

Yasser

Hamsab

I believe Hamidm`s post was sarcastic though in bad taste. We all know Hamidm`s real views very well.

Yasser Hamdani

all i can think of after reading these vitrolic, bitter, useless posts is that i now understand that wars are indeed started by men. not misunderstood men, or silly men, or even well meaning men, but men who cannot see beyond their own petty interests and insecurities and feel compelled to colour all possible experiences with them.

a good person is a good person regardless of what religion they are. this has been said by others on this board, but those who pore over their computers in the vain hopes of finding yet another opportunity to prove that they read more papers and are better informed, have failed to develop on this theme despite having been given the choice to do so.

this tells me they are not interested in the issue itself, but merely in projecting themselves as good debaters, better hindus, magnificent muslims...etc etc. in such a situation my question is `who are you strutting around for?`, all the women seem to have deserted their positions out of disgust, and perhaps also the realization that this isn`t even a real battle. this is just a bunch of little boys sublimating childhood war games into adult interactions. `are you doing it for Brahma, or Allah, or Skipinder the Punjabi Kangaroo?` are you doing it for each other? are you driven by a need for approval from other idiots?

umairr...interesting post on the need for education to enable people to interpret the Koran themselves. should all muslim children be taught arabic then? otherwise how would you iron out the differences in interpretation?

sabin

Reference: YLH Reply 228
``Any comments oh loving chowk wallahs?``

Due to some technical difficulties we had the duplicate posts. Sorry for the incovenience.

hamidm : #222 ``you seem be a clever fellow. but I do think that you, like many of us, have a hard time reconciling reason, logic and pure horse sense with religion, superstition, tradition and pure unadulterated fear....``

Actually, I am not too clever. I am just presenting my point of view. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. As they say, ``A person convinced against his will, is of the same opinion, still.`` You can take it or leave it, that`s your choice. But don`t make assumptions about the motivations behind it.

On the whole I do not have, ``hard time reconciling reason, logic and pure horse sense with religion, superstition, tradition and pure unadulterated fear....`` I am actually quite comfortable with my own understanding of religion, and where it fits into my life. That does not mean that you should be comfortable with my views, as well. But they do work for me. And I have never suggested that you accept them also.

In my opinion, a person trying to convince everyone that religion is the cause of all evils, is as intolerant as a person trying to convince everyone that his or her view of religion is the final answer. Both of these people should apply their views to themselves, and let the others get on with their own lives, based on their own views.

``that`s the problem I have with apologists for religion - one the one hand they say it is good for all times, for eternity and after , and then they turn around and say, but that was then - it was a different time and different circumstances``

No one needs to be an apologist for any religion. Why would someone need to apologize to you for his or her religious beliefs? Human beings commit all kinds of faults. And people should make up their own views about them. Many people think Clinton is the greatest guy in the world. Others think he is disgusting sex addict. Each group has a point. The important thing is not to force it on each other.

``I just caught a little bit of Yusuf Islam on some show on TV - the artist formerly known as Cat Stevens - another pathetic apologist for Islam who hemmed and hawed and stammered and stuttered when asked if he supported Khomeni`s Death Fatwa against Rushdie.``

If Cat Stevens hemmed and hawed, then he is doing what he thinks is right. What exactly does the hemming and hawing of Cat Stevens have to do with religion. He is one person, and will look at religion based on his own outlook on life. Maybe he supports Khomeini`s view, and maybe he opposes it. That`s up to him. I don`t think anyone appointed him the representative of any religion, so he is not speaking for everyone. There are people who have donated their whole life savings in the line of religion, and there are people who kill in the name of same religion. Does that mean the religion is inherently bad or good?

The point I was trying to make was a religion like Islam (or any code of life, for that matter) will be interpreted differently by different people. Irani girls cover themselves completely during the Olympics. Moroccan girls where bathing suits during Olympics. Pakistani girls are in between. All three are Muslims. The conservative mullah and liberal anti-mullah could spend their whole life arguing about which one is right and which one is wrong? Both would be wasting their time. As long as each athlete is convinced she are doing the right thing, then each one of them is correct (as long as they are not harming anyone else). This is called acceptance and tolerance.

To lash out at any religion, and declare it the cause of the end of the civilized world, in my opinion, is being as intolerant as the person who forces everyone to accept his or her own definition of a religion. A belligerent anti-mullah is just as dangerous as a belligerent mullah.

hamidm

Reply #223

Disgusting. Is it the manner you are taught to talk about a woman? What problem others can have about an individual`s lineage and who has given all of them the right to be `Conscience Keeper of the World`? Just because a Gutsy Woman has the courage to give some sense of direction and fighting ability to other unfortunate women, men brand her with all the bad names and call her `Awara` (in Urdu Press).

This `gashti` woman has the courage to stay in her country and fight for better rights for everybody. She has not migrated to other lands like many others to have a better life.

I am not holding brief for Asma Jahangir but many of you need to be restrained while commenting on individuals particularly those who have made a name by living and fighting in a society which is not sympathetic to their cause.

Just another tidbit that goes to show- Pakistan blows!

Umair #200

You are right on point.

Affluent members of minority usually have their religion in Private , but no other hindrance. And these minorities usually excel and get their share. (excepting Ahmedis for Historical Religious reasons)

While it is the poor minorities who not only suffer alongwith its poor counterpart majority, but our police and landlords and Dada`s alongwith their natural allies Mullahs cause them to suffer doubly because they have no voice. For example Bhel. (I also know there is a strong cross border trade where women are brought from poor parts of Rajhastan for our landlords and Mullahs, eager for more than one marriage and converting Hindus with the connivance of their Indian counterpart)

I hope things change for these people of minorities as well as majority.

Pragmatix#205

May be you can advise God to send 17 lower caste Hindu killed today in Bihar to heaven. At least they are killed at the hands of Hindus (which may be a criteria for Shahadat or Martyrdom)

Satyavadi #208

I am following Siagalph`s post.

He is entitled to his opinion and I respect it.

If I were in his shoes, probably I would be thinking in the same term. I think Siagalph looks more of a Bengali Nationalist with pride in his nation and its struggle. I think that is not bad.

And just to make it clear... the constant repeating on Jinnah article was not my fault ... it was some practical joke Chowk staff decided to play on me for god knows what reason...

Any comments oh loving chowk wallahs?

Jay first of all grow up ... whatever you were trying to prove by telling us that Jinnah died on the anniversary of his speech ... is obviously not working because

``Jinnah died on 11th September 1948 not 11th August``

Plus there isnt just one Jinnah speech .. I believe I quoted the other ones quite a few times.. As a matter of fact if you read the book

Jinnah speeches and statements 1947-48 Oxford Millenium series ... you will see that atleast half of his speeches say the same thing ...

Now Jay leave us alone! Please!

HamidM#

After becoming Muslim Cat Stevens was denied entry into Israel twice.

Can you shed light. Are the Muslims only Hypocrite according to your standard.

In your liberty, can you see yourself in the pantaloon of a black in Brooklyn, destined to be drunk and ending up in AIDS or jail unless off course saved by the accursed Islam.

Or your liberty is good only if you have a house, a car, children going to two schools (Islamic and Farangi both) and wife not dating outside.

In your position it is easy to say what you are saying. In the position of Brooklyn black, that is already his life before salvation what you are preaching.