Hidden Hindus

krashid...reply #182

``So you can see labelling and projection moves one away from reaching at the correct picture.``

i don`t think u could have said it better. i believe that our local newspapers and news channels have to share the blame for presenting a distorted picture of the facts and not to mention our home grown prejudices that are fed into us.

about vajpayee....the current era of indian politics is that of coalitions and i don`t see any party getting a single largest majority. at least vajpayee is better than indira gandhi and nehru who despite being good diplomats, were absolute disasters when it came to the economic development of india.

ylh....

i wouldn`t say that i am entirely happy with your reasoning....but since i`m back in poona, i have a lot of assignments to finish of and hence we`ll continue this discussion if u wish some other time.

Bilal/dost mittar,

The stories that you relate are from a generation or 2 above us. Does this apply to our contemporary times?

When I lived in Bombay, one of the most popular resturants was Delhi Durbar, owned by muslims.

As far as I`m concerned, muslim cusine is the finest in the world.

krashid 109

``Don`t worry pragmatix!

You will forget Kashmir expressway, when All India Expressway will takes its place.``

KRashid, The All India Expressway leads to the NASDAQ care to join in? Better than the expressway to the IMF and WB.

Religion is better kept at home and in temples, mosques, gurudwaras, churches and synagogues! And by the way....not sure if the terrorists have gone to heaven...GOD is wiser than that!

know thy country,

To all those who ask the question, have you been to pakistan, to ylh and krashid,

Whither are we?

By Asma Jahangir

THE General, Chief Executive of Pakistan, arrived like an empty vessel at the United Nations Millennium Summit in New York. His noise made little sense to the international community, who yawned at his offer for peace and a no-war pact to India.

A leader, who claims he has little control over militants in his country and ``spiritually`` supports the strategy of ``jihad``, is not likely to be taken seriously, especially as he does not officially head the ``jihadis``, who are central to the tensions between the two countries - India and Pakistan.

Our Chief Executive sounded more like a deposed Maharaja of Kashmir, rather than an interim military ruler of Pakistan, who had vowed to restore ``pure and true`` democracy to the country - a promise made by every man on horseback.

The government`s commitment to raise the issue of violations of human rights in Indian held Kashmir is laudable. They must continue to do so, but in a sincere and coherent manner. A government which has banned political activities and refuses to hold general elections in its own country can hardly be expected to champion the cause of human rights of the people of Kashmir. To give weight to his concerns regarding the situation of human rights in Kashmir, the Chief Executive would be best advised to improve the record of human rights domestically too.

Is he concerned about the two hundred and thirtythree suicides committed in the last seven months because of economic desperation? Did he wince at the story of eve-teasing of women at Al-hamra, where young men stroked the terrified women like vultures? What did he do for the pregnant woman who was killed and her stomach slashed by a dare-devil male relative in the name of honour? Does he get disturbed at the rising misuse of the blasphemy law?

A Hindu income tax inspector gets lynched in the presence of the army personnel for allegedly having made a remark on the beard of a trader. Promptly, the unfortunate Hindu government servant is booked for having committed blasphemy, while the traders and the Lashkar-e-Tayaba activists were offered tea over parleys. A seventy-year-old Mukhtaran Bibi and her pregnant daughter Samina are languishing in Sheikhupura jail on trumpeted-up charges of blasphemy.

Pakistan ranks as one of the front-runners in imposing death penalty - over 4,00 prisoners are on the death row. Children, as young as twelve years old, are in jails. One such child has been awarded death penalty. Insecurity is acute and pervasive and militancy has turned into barbarism. It has left a chilling effect on our society. Every able-bodied person is making plans to opt out and leave his motherland. People of Northern Areas have no rights. They do not even have the right to vote. They are without a High Court or elected representatives.

Elections are regularly rigged in Azad Kashmir and the people denied basic rights. All this is glossed over in the name of security. Every decent person, Pakistani or otherwise, feels disturbed by consistent violations of human rights in Kashmir. Similarly, they are equally concerned at the oppression in Afghanistan. If human rights are central to our foreign policy, then the government of Pakistan ought, at least, to cold-shoulder its Taliban friends.

The hypocrisy of our foreign policy is apparent to everyone, except our military leaders and their civilian sychophants. The Indian security forces should and must, at all costs, be brought to justice for rape and extra-judicial killings in Kashmir. At the same time, so should those in Pakistan who killed and raped their own citizens in East Pakistan. We cannot exonerate either.

Solving the Kashmir problem is not easy. It is complex and best left to political leaders. No interim government, without a public mandate, can hope to do much about it. It may well complicate matters. Recent bombings at Lahore should be some warning.

Pakistan`s insistence on plebiscite is not supported by many Kashmiri groups. They want independence, rather than a choice between the devil and the deep sea. No one will buy plebiscite, perhaps not even the people of Azad Kashmir.

If independence is the next best choice, then Pakistan`s leadership has to be prepared to let go of Azad Kashmir and perhaps the Northern Areas too. Many hope that an independent Kashmir will remain under our control. Perhaps so, but only if we are able to offer them prosperity and well-being, which we seem to lose fast enough in our dreams of grand alliances and strategic depths. More optimistic analysts insists that Pakistan is on the verge of getting the Valley. Any such move in the presence of militants and Indian security forces will only end in bloodshed and a constant proxy war.

The only route to solving the Kashmir issue is through a series of negotiations - but they cannot start until violence decreases in Kashmir. The recent cease-fire was a positive development but short-lived. Whether it is a sustainable cease-fire or a series of talks, they can only be negotiated by a civilian elected government. The military rulers, as we have witnessed, have lost credibility both at home and abroad. The message from the UN Summit was clear: ``get off your high horse and be relevant.`` Let us hope it has sunk somewhere.

///All apkistanis on the chowk who talk of moderation in pakistan should frame the above post, read it every morning.

ISLAM AND REFERMATION,

There are certain aspects of islam that prevents any kind of adaptation. The most important is fatwa, any one having a slight influence is killed off by those in power. The second is the command that no aspect of the book should be discarded. We have the problem with riba, interest rates. And the last is that there can be no more prophets.

Reformation looks very bleak and anything different from what is in saudi or taliban land will have to be enforced with an iron fist, ask the turks.

TALKING TO THE DEAD,

Cowasjee is alleged to be a top journalist of pakistan, there is no one listening to him, what ever he has to say is drowned in the din of jihad. He himself was arretsed or something during nawaz time, now the poor kafir is reduced to talking to the dead, dead Jinnah. What a pathetic situation.

Pakistan is going backwards, in a time warp, they types of YLH are stuck at 1947, they were cruising along nicely and there came the road block of one speach, Ok may be several utterences, which his followers never understood. Any how in the march of pakistan backwards, the jihadists are far ahead, they are almost at the promise land, the jihadists are in full cry, a coup by the bearded generals will finish off the echoes of the last speach.

As some one pointed out, Jinnah made the speach on iith august 1947, he died exactly a year later, on the anniversary of the speach. Let me consult Carl Jung on `sychronicty` and will get back to you.

sighal235: #180: Are you basing your opinions on second-hand information (newspaper articles, discussions, etc.), or have you had a chance to spend a significant amount of time in Pakistan, observing the minorities in the Pakistani society?

On the whole, I think Pakistan treats its minorities about as badly as any other third world country. As far as the killing of minorities; Pakistan probably has the lowest level of minority killings by civilian majority groups, of any country in South Asia. As a religious group, the highest number of civilians currently being killed in South Asia are by far Muslims. The second highest number of civilians being killed in South Asia are Christians. The number of Hindus being killed are a distant third or fourth. This includes killings by the military, civlian hate groups, etc. And in the context of South Asia, an overwhelming majority of these Muslims and Christians, being killed, live in South Asian countries other than Pakistan.

This, of course, does not mean minorities are treated well in Pakistan. However, they are treated about as well as a total minority population of 3% is treated anywhere in the third world. Very poorly. Highlighting only Pakistan is a bit unfair.

The main problem in Pakistan is actually not the acceptance of minorities in the general society. The problem is that minorities have been sidelined in the legal system. Because of this, any member of the majority community can use biased laws to tackle their personal conflicts with someone belonging to a minority group. In fact, the blasphemy laws are usually used to settle land disputes and other similar issues (issues that have nothing to do with blasphemy). This is the major problem. Luckily, the courts have almost always, if not always, given, ``not guilty`` decisions in cases involving blasphemy law. The other problem is that the minorities in Pakistan are too small in number, and hence have very little clout. They are dependent on the goodwill of the majority. Had their percentage been larger, it would have been much difficult for biased majority political groups to get such laws passed.

However, the average Pakistani is in no way out to kill a minority citizen of Pakistan. This is a ridiculous idea that is being blown out of proportion on Chowk. Pakistan has fewer incidents of a majority, `` mob`` killing religious minorities than other countries in South Asia. In fact, most of the killings that occur in Pakistan are actually between the Shia-Sunni extremist groups,(which together constitute the overwhelming Pakistani religoius majority), mostly in Punjab, due to political and religious reasons. The other major killings are between members of two rival political groups in Karachi; both belonging to the same ethnic minority and both Muslims. Again due to political reasons. These combined killings perhaps outnumber the killings of religious minorities by 100 to 1 (or some significantly large number).

``Pakistanis will have a lot more standing about criticizing India`s treatment of minorities once Islamabad has seen a few non-Muslim presidents, a couple of Hindu Chief Justices, and half a dozen Parsi cricket captains.``

I don`t think a few minority members rising to the top is justification enough that a society has accepted minorities. Considering the fact that Pakistan has only a 3% minority, Pakistan has actually had quite a few distinguished govt. and military officials from the minority community. This does not mean the minorities are treated well. Pakistan has had a female Prime Minister. This does not mean women have all the rights they deserve in Pakistan. So, I do not agree with your criteria for judging the progress of minorities in a society.

Even within minority groups, there are different levels of acceptance in any society. Jews in the US are far more, ``equal`` than Muslims. In Pakistan, Parsis, as a group, are perhaps the most successful community in the whole country. On a per person level, far more successful than the Shia-Sunni majority. Ahmedis have the highest rate of education, I believe.

This is not an attempt to state that all is hunky-dory for minorities in Pakistan. Far from it. It is an attempt, to first point out, that people should live in a country for a significant amount of time first, before becoming experts on that country`s society. Secondly, it is to highlight that Pakistan lags behind other countries in terms of establishing a fair official legal system, under which minorities can live peacefully. The current legal system has been put in place due to the efforts of die-hard politicians, attempting to satisfy small but very vocal extremist groups. It is less due to the efforts of the average Pakistani on the street. As far as the average Pakistani`s treatment of religious minorities, it is as bad as the treatment of minorities in any third world country in which the religious minority constitute such a small percentage of the population. No better, no worse. Obviously a lot needs to be done to improve this situation.

Regarding Bhutto: I agree he didn`t do anything for the minorities; neither did his daughter. They were both too caught up in their personal agendas.

Sadhana #re 132

I don`t see anything wrong with your post 21.

You were getting tangled in arguments.That`s why I said move on to other posts and other views. You are more experienced at chowk, you should no better. One can express his views but to convince is very difficult. That too on the web!

You just got into a mood,I once retorted,you don`t seem to get into. :)

Faidinkum #138

You seem to have a lot of amusing anecdotes. Keep posting more, on any topic. I thought chinese were cute!

Pullu

Rsaxena,

Your statement in which you stated Farrakhan to Islam ... has just just clearly shown how knowledgeable you are.

Clearly you hate Pakistan and everything about us. So please do yourself and us a favor leave us alone? Really your posts dont anger as anymore, but your ``excrement`` is annoying as in its smelly.

I am sure there are a hundred of Indian sites where you can contribute?

Chalo beta abba jaan (meaning YLH) ka kehna mano aur hume tang naa karo ...

YLH!

http://www.umich.edu/

Dear Shandana!

Please read the article by Master Harkho Mal Pata Ram on the editorial page of Jang of October 3, 2000. He discuses the issue of Separate Electorate specifically elaborating the perspective of Hindu Minority. You might find an answer to your question about the pragmatic minorities, at the other board.

(Finally something related to your article)

RE: Fairdinkum

Thanks for submitting Exhibit B, i.e #194

I see two extreme views in this discussion of religion. On one hand we have some people simply refuse to acknowledge that there is anything wrong with blasphemy laws, discrimination against Hindus, Ahmedis, Christians, and other minorities. They can justify murder on the basis of their beliefs. On the other hand we have people who regard religion as evil…the root cause of all that is wrong with Pakistani society, and similar societies of the third world countries. For them religion is absolutely useless.
The arguments presented for and against religion, so far, take no notice of an overwhelming majority of people who prefer to tread a middle path. For whom religion is a personal matter, and plays an important role in their lives.

Thomas A. Idinopulos, Professor of Religion at Miami University of Ohio writes:

“When religion and life blend as they do for my mother, religion ceases to be anything distinctive, objective, something external, a mere practice. It is well-known that religious people do not think of themselves as religious, because they cannot imagine themselves as other than religious. One could think of authentically religious people as growing a kind of skin which covers whole body, gives them their appearance, holds them together, contains the pores through which they breathe; when breathing stops, they are buried with this one skin and no other. To such people, religion is not something ``practiced,`` something that could be listed on a list of personality traits and career achievements. When one is religious as my mother is religious, the word ``religion`` loses its meaning or becomes irrelevant.” (What is religion?)

I suppose it is the same for my mother too.

Also, she gets equally distressed about the plight of minorities in Pakistan & slaughter of Muslims in Bosnia/Kosovo or Israel. For her, it doesn’t make sense that such evil is propagated in the name of religion. There are a lot of people like her in this world. People, who don`t see any sense in the grand narratives of religion or ideologies. Who are more pragmatic than most of us educated. Who draw strength from religion and spirituality in their lives, but do not wish to see anybody get hurt in the name of religion.
Religion has been a part of human life, a part of human being since pre-historic times. Why can’t we understanding that most people need it….it obviously fulfils a very deep human need.

In my view, the problem arises when religion gets organized as an institution (a political movement or a business venture) and individuals are asked to see things from somebody else’s perspective (usually a priest or a Mullah) and their personal deep relationship with God/spirituality severed as a result.

Fuzair`s reply # 192 is the Exhibit A to elaborate and prove the point that was raised in my post # 190.

Re: Umairr, Hamidm and Haider Irfan

All three of the revealed religions are inherently intolerant. I don`t know as much about Hinduism, etc. so I will exclude them from my sweeping condemnation. The problem arises from the knowledge that you are privy to the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth. `Truth` here is an intimate knowledge of God`s will, as manisfested by your reading of His `Book.` If you know the Truth, everybody else who refuses to acknowledge it must surely stand condemned in God`s eyes. Therefore, to tolerate dissent, differing interpretations or clashing `Truths` is to deny God. And what penalty can there be for denying God? Guess.

I think what the Reformation and Luther did was to make acceptable the idea that no one has a monopoly on the interpretation of God`s words (the Holy Mother Church`s position) and that Person A`s interpretation is as good as Person B`s. Having laid this theoretical ground, the Reformation led directly to the Enlightenment and the quest for Rationality.

Thus, even most religious Christians in the West don`t feel that their version is the sole Truth but that they have the privilige of seeing one aspect/facet of the multi-faceted jewel that is the Truth. When you think that you can, at best, know only a few facets of Truth, this is less likely to make you want to go out and smite the infidel hip and thigh.

The problem with Islam was/is that it has managed to marginalize all reform movements and focus on the Truth. Thus our beardos, mullahs and ordinary Joe Schmuck does not look into a multifaceted jewel when he wants to see the Truth, he simply looks into a mirror. And what do you see when you look into a mirror? Yourself, of course.

So the problem with Islam, or any other religion for that matter, that knows the Truth as a single facet is that it has to be intolerant. It is only when you have doubt that you are tolerant.

So, with all due deference to Prof. Bilal Ahmad and his humanitarian impulses, I side with the eradicateurs in Algeria and call for a mullocaust. And the same for their fellow-travellers.

For those fans of Hill Street Blues, ``Lets do it to them before they do it to us!`` For those of you who don`t know what I`m talking about, forget it. It will take too long to explain.

Regards

RE: YLH

I hope you read your own posts before you paste them on the board. I urge you to go through your post # 186 and #188 when you are not in a hurry to post something more. Read between the lines and see how contradictory they are. After you have analysed them (and not just read them) would you be kind enough to write a short note and share your thoughts with us.

THank you.