Hidden Hindus

It was a good article indeed, all my life I lived in Pakistan and I didn`t meet any Hindu and here in USA I have met a very friendly Hindu Pakistani. Religious persecution is a fact in our country. I remember a Muslim medical student in Dow Medical College being shot dead by a Jamiat student for celebrating Hindu ritual of holi. And many Ahmadi doctors and professors shot dead in our institutions of higher learning. Media doesn`t give much projection to these news stories, but as concsientious Pakistanis and Muslims we should protect and respect beliefs of our minorities.

In previous govt a bill was passed by Punjab govt to change the name of Qadiani`s holy city `Rabwah` to `Mustafabad`. After declaring them non Muslim in 1973, the witch hunting must have been stopped, but no, our people can`t even tolerate existence of minorities. Christians are mostly janitors, there utensils, etc are kept separate. One of my friend told that one of his relative (a maulavi) had beaten his wife because she didn`t stop the Christian jamadar from playing with their baby.

Now moving to a more important issue of Blasphemy. I have recently read a very informaive book ``Shatam e Rasool Ka Masala`` by Maulana Waheed ud Din. He has given historical account of all the blasphemeers in Prophet Mohammed`s (PBUH) time, in no instance had he ordered their killing, even when he had all the resources and even when a son of a blasphemeer asked Prophet`s peremission to kill his father. All this shows that blasphemy law is secular in origin and has no Islamic origin.

Here in USA I meet people on campus nearly every day distributing copies of new testament, Jewish or Muslim literature, and no on gets inflamed. The secret of America`s success lies partly in tolerating difference of opinion and free practice of each individual`s religion. And tolerance for difference of opinion is what we desperately need.

Re:SameerJB#128

Sameer, you wrote

``Muslims in general accept Christians and Jews as the people of the ``Book`` but most do not have similar feeling toward Hindus, even if they may be their cousins going back to 10-12 generations.``

This is a very insightful observation. I think that it is a legacy inherited from the muslim invaders, who much like the british, looked down upon the darker skinned, infidel desis. You cannot conquer a people until you demonize them. When desis converted to Islam, they not only got the religion, but they also got the prejudices of the muslim invaders who brought Islam here. The reason I say this is because if you talk with Arabs or Iranians, they do not have anything against hindus or Indians. Clearly it is not something to do with Islam. Rather it is the legacy of the invaders that gets merged with the Islamic identity in the subcontinent.

The question is why do desi muslims continue to pass on this legacy from one generation to the next? After all, they know quite well that they are desis like hindus. What is even more absurd, is that fanatic hindus (Bal Thackrey types) treat desi muslims as if they are outsiders or invaders. In one breath they say that desi muslims are converts and in the other breath they call them arabs, mughals, ghaznavi/ghori descendents etc. I think that this phenomenon simply shows that we desis are irrational and we lack common sense.

Desi muslims through out the subcontinent should step back and evaluate their concepts about hindus that they have inherited. They should look at the Islamic world and do some calibration of their opinions. Not a single Islamic country hates India. Rather they are lining up to develop strong relations with India. Similary hindus need to step back and realize that if they hate Ghaznavi, Babur etc., why take it out on our desi neighbors ? If you have the guts, lash out against Turkey or Uzbekistan, why hate the poor muslim guy living in Lahore or Delhi ? To this day, I have never seen a RSS type guy criticize Turkey, Iran or Uzbekistan. It is always Pakistan. Maybe the Islamic world can send in some high ranking clerics who can meet with desi muslim clerics and hindu priests to update the hindu-muslim relations for the future. If the Saudis tell Pakistan to stop hating India, maybe the Pakistanis will listen.

KRashid

{{But compared to posts from Indian sides, where they have been frankly abusive against Islam, and Prophet PBUH.}}

If they have, then I will be the first to say that it is very regretable. As a fellow human being, it is unconsionable to do that against any religion. Having said that,I guess I have a bad memory or I`m guilty of filtering out anti-Islamic insults. Please help my memory (& mind you, you may be right) & point out which posts were insulting to Islam or the Prophet PBUH.

{{I have always attacked the human rights abuses in India and sarcastically what India is. I have not attacked your personal beliefs on religion, nor did I participated on famous Heeng board. etc.}}

Maybe not. However,I hope you will agree that some Pakistanis have. The ``heeng board`` was a prime example or your good friend Farangi-Kush`s `` cow dung-urine`` statements.

There are uncivilised idiots on both sides. To form an opinion about a country/religion based on the views of a few extremists is wrong.

hamidm: #145: Your sarcasm is actually quite entertaining, and creative. However, I think you are being a bit too harsh on the Quran. It`s not as bad as you think. Maybe the translation you have in your possession wasn`t the best available at Amazon.com, or was conveniently edited by someone. Here are some other translations of the same verse you quoted in your reply:

47:4: ``If you encounter (in war) those who disbelieve, you may strike the necks. If you take them as captives you may set them free or ransom them, until the war ends. Had GOD willed, He could have granted you victory, without war. But He thus tests you by one another. As for those who get killed in the cause of GOD, He will never put their sacrifice to waste.`` (from Rashid Khalifa`s translation)

47:4 ``Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah’s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.`` (from Abdullah Yusufali`s translation)

47:4 ``Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.`` (from Marmaduke Pickthall`s translation)

So, different strokes for different folks. And different translations for different folks. I have gone through Pickthall`s translation in great detail, and I found it quite an easy read. Seems to me, like this verse 47:4 is intended to be implied only during war. So non-Muslims can sleep easy. Muslims will not be striking your necks; unless of course, there is a war (or if they pick up hamidm`s translation at Amazon and not Pickthall`s :)).

My favorite verse in the Quran, is the following from Chapter 2, The Cow:

``Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.`` (2:62, from Pickthall`s translation)

So, Jews and Christians are in. Sabaeans were worshipers of the heavenly bodies, and even they are in. However, I am not quite sure where the above verse places Hindus.

Do the Hindus, ``believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right.`` I know quite a few Hindus who, ``doeth right.`` Dictionary.com states that Allah means God. And us ulema (you and I) know the Hindus do believe in God. Now what are the concepts of, ``Last Day`` in Hinduism. My knowledge about Hinduism ends right about there, so maybe one of our Indian friends can answer this one. But, even if the Hindus do not have a concept of the, ``Last Day,`` they still get 2 out 3. Maybe, Allah will say that 2 out of 3 ain`t bad, and He`ll let the Hindus in also, along with us Muslims, Jews, Christians and Sabaeans.

Heaven would be a bit boring without Ashwariya Rai, though. Don`t your think. Then again what do I know.

ylh # 44

..... yes, my young friend, Sunday Schools do exist in the US - but in the last twenty odd years all of Pakistan has turned into one big perverse Sunday School, aka Madrassa - thanks to the miracle of Islamic Revivalism ..... for those of us who are old enough to remember the good old days when an Ahmedi was considered a human being and one could get a decent gin and tonic at Pindi Club, the present day religious mania is frightening..... old friends who once leaned nervously on Zammurad`s niece`s gao-takias on Main Street Hira Mandi, now click their worry beads and mutter Jazak-Allah and Inshallah as they sit at Kalia and Kalia, turning rupees into dollars that they want you to deposit in their US accounts......... they rant and rave against Christians and Ahmedis, Shias and Beralvis, always ending up with the Jews - not that they have ever seen or met one ....

.... they are all honorable men now - saying their prayers four times a day and making sure their, once beautiful, now wide-bottomed middle aged wives dress modestly and put on an Arab head-dress....... they talk about buying apartments in Toronto and the decadence of the West, as they flip through the US College Guide for their sons and daughters ......

........... as a frequent, twice a year visitor to Pakistan, I don`t know who is worse - the Pakistani-American with his Arabized version of Islam, or the resident Pakistani with his pure Talibanized version ........ the fact remains that religion has insidiously penetrated and perverted our national psyche and now holds us hostage as the world passes us by ........

...... oh sure, in the drawing rooms of Islamabad and Lahore and Karachi, there is a lot of talk about freedom and liberty and human rights.... the latest edition of the The Friday Times is discussed as Allah Ditta brings in the samosas and Begum-Sahib passes the Swiss Chocolate that she bought at Godiva`s on Park Avenue .......... the Brigadier, now a General Manager at Fauji Foundation feverishly tries to call his connection at the Thai embassy as he is running low on his stock of Scotch ........ all this activity comes to an abrupt end as one Azan blares from a nearby mosque, then another, then another ..... soon a cacophony of religious noise overcomes the soothing hum of the air conditioner .... but everyone looks solemn as the women adjust the duppatas on their heads and try to cover up sleeveless arms and the men speed up their worry beads .......it is tough being human when Allah is watching..........

RE hamidm

A friend of the devil is a friend of mine. Had too much of those hash brownies, haven`t you?

Peace

......Aaaahhh! the memories. The red dawn. The bear hugs. We could have never imagined how Gratefully Dead we would be. But, aaah!, the memories.....

.....Jerry Garcia lives - Blues for Allah, Inshallah

.... why are we worried about Hindus, Christians, Ahmedis and other UnGodly people who have brung the wrath of Allah upon themselves ? Didn`t He reveal the truth to us, and warned us against the transgressors and heretics .............. now that my little fanatic has opened my eyes, I see the Clintonesque evil inherent in the tree-hugging followers of the false prophetess Madalyn O`Haire ......

..... in case some of the faltering Muslims on the chowk have any doubts about how to treat the Kafir :

47.4: ``When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the

remaining captives.``

9.29,30: ``Declare war upon those to whom the Scriptures were revealed but believe neither in God nor the Last Day, and who do not forbid

that which God and His Apostles have forbidden, and who refuse toacknowledge the true religion until they pay the poll-tax without reservation and are totally subjugated. The Jews claim that Ezra is a son of God, and the Christians say, `the Messiah is a son of God.`Those are their claims which do indeed resemble the sayings of the Infidels of Old. May God do battle with them! How they are deluded!``

................ so let us cut out this crap about minority and Hindu rights - praise the Lord and pass the ammunition. We, the pious - with billowing shalwars and clean upper lips, will not permit the sissification of the Pakistani youth. We have seen the enemy - Jews and Christians and Hindu and, of course, Jerry Garcia`s Deadheads :

Arabian wind, The needle`s eye is thin, The ships of state sail on mirage,

And drown in sand, Out in no-man`s land where Allah does command.

What good is spilling blood? It will not grow a thing;

Taste eternity the swords sing: Blues of Allah In `sh`Allah.

They lie where they fall, There`s nothing more to say,

The desert stars are bright tonight lets meet as friends,

The Flower of Islam, The Fruit of Abraham.

The thousand stories have come round to one again,

Arabian night, Our Gods pursue their fight,

What fatal flowers of darkness bloom from seeds of light.

Bird of paradise fly in white sky, Blues for Allah In `sh`Allah,

Let`s see with our heart, These things our eyes have seen,

And know the truth must still lie somewhere in between.

Under eternity, under eternity, under eternity blue,

Bird of paradise fly in white sky, Blues for Allah In `sh`Allah

veeresh #137:

think you`re forgetting this is the Islamic Republic of Pakistan we`re talking about (at least for the time being if we go by your khabar) so... either send us the proper stuff or get ready to get your head ganjafied... taliban ishtyle...

on the other hand, if you`re really that short on khaki kapra, (and by the sounds of it you seem to be), maybe we can help and donate some your way? (we`re a generous qaum) we can`t bear to watch half naked bodies wearing chaddees land on our beaches...

Hindus who choose to live in Pakistan have it coming. Pakistan was created as a non-secular country for Islam and Muslims (``Islamic Republic of Pakistan``)and not for the Hindus and Christians and other assorted Kafirs to come mingle in.

They stuck their hands in the lion`s cage and shouldn`t be complaining now.

fairdinkum(#138): You can check a large number of websites by using the search engine at yahoo.com and search for ``BHEEL``. I wrongly used spellings as ``bhel or bhil`` for a class of low caste hindus originally from southern Rajisthan, northern Gujrat and eastern Sindh. The term Bheel defines a class of low caste Hindus, agriculture laborers by profession. They are not normal nomads who migrate with changing weather. The Bheels live in their exclusive villages and move around in search of jobs in farming sector and get trapped as bonded laborers (slaves find the master and generally not otherway around). Because of centuries of seperate and on the move lifestyle, they have developed distinct culture, different from Sindhi, Gujrat or Rajisthani cultures. Please read some of the stories from the yahoo search websites, about atrocities commited against them. I really liked the one in TribuneIndia, Chandigarh story about someone`s memoir of a drought in southern Rajisthan.

I do not know about Rang(h)ers or Oodhs at this time. I will look for their background somewhere and inform you some other time. I think, both of these groups are true nomads; mostly construction laborers. They maybe originally from semi-arid southern Punjab (north of Multan). Isn`t singer Reshman one of Oodh?

P.S. I was doubtful about Pakistan`s chances of any medal this time and they came out 4th. Your genes, diluted or not, would not have much difference. The holiest of the holy Saudis won one silver medal. It may be funny for you to know that most Muslim medal winners in Sydney Olympics came from.................none other than formally athiest Russia. Many of the Russian Boxers and Weight lifters were of Muslim background. I guess Islam prepares one well for lifting heavy load of ``larger than average family size`` and you boxed your way through life against athiests, polytheists, pagans, Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, Ahmadis................

Hamidm

Please for the record also clarify that Islamic Sunday schools exist in the United States and not in Pakistan.

Americans of Pakistani/Muslim/Arab origin to me are as much of a scum as certain other groups I wouldnt mention here.

They give us a bad name. Sorry for stereotyping.

Yasser Hamdani

Devkant,

Did you actually bother looking at who started the mess on the other forum....

Please if you cant contribute constructively, refrain from personal slander.

Thankyou

Yours sincerely

Yasser Hamdani

HamidM#

I don`t see any relationship between the wrong belief`s of your friend with you visiting him.

Do you discuss religion on a drink with him when you visit him.

The Pakistani English press, during its periods of freedom, has tried to raise consciousness about the problems of religious minorities in Pakistan.

For example, I know of the minority community leaders` strong pleas for a joint electorate from articles in the Dawn from the early 90s.

Two observations -- first, that any Indian interest in Pakistani Hindus would be the kiss of death for that small community.

Second, as a participant and observer on the USENET group soc.culture.pakistan a decade ago, I noticed that whenever two male Pakistani students got into a fight and traded insults, the two deadliest insults were to call your opponent a Hindu and a woman. Perhaps I draw the wrong conclusion, but I don`t think things are going to improve in a hurry for the ``Hidden Hindus``.

-arun gupta

Shankar #127

I don`t want to be very polite with you.

If my posts are hateful, so be it.

If I am hateful. Then think that a common man is having a grenade and Jihadist atom bomb.

I don`t take insults lightly. If you (Not you in particular because I know your posts are balanced)

start hurling abuse on my soft belly. I also know your soft belly.

But compared to posts from Indian sides, where they have been frankly abusive against Islam, and Prophet PBUH. I have always attacked the human rights abuses in India and sarcastically what India is. I have not attacked your personal beliefs on religion, nor did I participated on famous Heeng board. etc.

You cannot go on attacking my people and religion and think of amity. And if there is no amity we are at fault.