Hidden Hindus
Shandana Minhas September 27, 2000
#349 Posted by ylh on October 10, 2000 1:34:50 am
Aisha
Well said... :)
A look on the other board will show you how people like SB are currently making a God out of Gandhi ... typical wont you say?
At least Mr Gandhi had more sense than accepting such show of flattery in his lifetime
Well said... :)
A look on the other board will show you how people like SB are currently making a God out of Gandhi ... typical wont you say?
At least Mr Gandhi had more sense than accepting such show of flattery in his lifetime
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#348 Posted by krashid on October 10, 2000 1:34:50 am
Sarwari #352
Jabb Kisi Se Gila Rakhna
Samne Apne Aina Rakhna.
Who is the poet. (Good verse without poet`s name is injustice to poet)
Jabb Kisi Se Gila Rakhna
Samne Apne Aina Rakhna.
Who is the poet. (Good verse without poet`s name is injustice to poet)
#347 Posted by krashid on October 10, 2000 1:34:50 am
Humsab #397
First I am not a supporter of Army or MQM. Second your assertion does not change the facts about India or does it?. Third, since I am from Karachi, I can tell you about operation against MQM. Fourth the operation was done in so called democratic Government of Nawaz Sharif. I think it was a blessing in disguise for all of us. Karachi has been made hostage by MQM. Nobody dare speak anything other than MQM line. People have been killed and harrased, and extortion of money was common and nobody would speak. This mafia network was broken by army operation. Total number of deaths during MQM rule runs in 10,000 where mostly it was first ethnic violence between Mohajir and Sindhi, Punjabi, Pathan and later between rival factions of MQM. The total number of extrajudicial killing and overall killing by security forces (although not justified by me) is less than 500 and involve most notoriuos criminals.
Karachi is slowly regaining its cosmopolitan character. And my family there is very happy with change.
First I am not a supporter of Army or MQM. Second your assertion does not change the facts about India or does it?. Third, since I am from Karachi, I can tell you about operation against MQM. Fourth the operation was done in so called democratic Government of Nawaz Sharif. I think it was a blessing in disguise for all of us. Karachi has been made hostage by MQM. Nobody dare speak anything other than MQM line. People have been killed and harrased, and extortion of money was common and nobody would speak. This mafia network was broken by army operation. Total number of deaths during MQM rule runs in 10,000 where mostly it was first ethnic violence between Mohajir and Sindhi, Punjabi, Pathan and later between rival factions of MQM. The total number of extrajudicial killing and overall killing by security forces (although not justified by me) is less than 500 and involve most notoriuos criminals.
Karachi is slowly regaining its cosmopolitan character. And my family there is very happy with change.
#346 Posted by krashid on October 10, 2000 1:34:50 am
Kant Patel #350
In your response to Temporal, you said that irrelevant portions should be taken out of Koran.
It is not as simple as that.
Although HamidM may be right in posting against the bigotry done in the name of religion, but he is wrong because he is posting these Ayah out of context.
Non- Muslims work and have worked in Islamic countries including Iran, Arab countries, etc. How many of them have been forcibly converted or have been killed because they were not Muslims.
Still Shariah is practiced in most of them.
Also in history Islamic rule has been very pragmatic, even with religion. While all the western culture has to be anti-religious to be pragmatic.
The current trend in Islamic world of Jihad and Jihadist can more appropriately be seen as an assertion of Nationalism in the guise of religion as it has been with communism, which was Nationalism in the guise of Communism.
In your response to Temporal, you said that irrelevant portions should be taken out of Koran.
It is not as simple as that.
Although HamidM may be right in posting against the bigotry done in the name of religion, but he is wrong because he is posting these Ayah out of context.
Non- Muslims work and have worked in Islamic countries including Iran, Arab countries, etc. How many of them have been forcibly converted or have been killed because they were not Muslims.
Still Shariah is practiced in most of them.
Also in history Islamic rule has been very pragmatic, even with religion. While all the western culture has to be anti-religious to be pragmatic.
The current trend in Islamic world of Jihad and Jihadist can more appropriately be seen as an assertion of Nationalism in the guise of religion as it has been with communism, which was Nationalism in the guise of Communism.
#345 Posted by sb on October 9, 2000 10:27:16 pm
Kant Patel:
Firstly, my apologies for jarring anyone`s sensibilities with my use of words. Totally unwaranted.
Secondly, a disclaimer: I am not advocating obscurantism.
Finally, while blood transfusion, organ replacements, etc., are related to saving life or delaying death, gene therapy will be geared towards influencing the characteristics of the yet to be born. The US govt has not allowed research in this area for a long time because of the powerful implications of such work(the private firms however carried on their work, and now the govt scientists are making these orgs a case to press for govt`s go-ahead for their own research). So did some Euro govts. It is accepted in the medical world today that we have capability to create `intelligence`. I am not saying we should walk away from our labs and research, but some fields of research should be debated on a larger scale and perhaps stalled till a later date. Like you said, I think it has to be monitored and chanelled (who monitors and channels it - the people who made the atomic bomb and used it when the war was almost over? Is there place in this monitoring for other people, who missed out on Industrial Rev and are barely trying to catch up with IT rev? And what about the countries whose people still starve despite there being no dearth of food for everyone on the planet?). A link - http://www.frenchanderson.org/ethics/ethics.html
Firstly, my apologies for jarring anyone`s sensibilities with my use of words. Totally unwaranted.
Secondly, a disclaimer: I am not advocating obscurantism.
Finally, while blood transfusion, organ replacements, etc., are related to saving life or delaying death, gene therapy will be geared towards influencing the characteristics of the yet to be born. The US govt has not allowed research in this area for a long time because of the powerful implications of such work(the private firms however carried on their work, and now the govt scientists are making these orgs a case to press for govt`s go-ahead for their own research). So did some Euro govts. It is accepted in the medical world today that we have capability to create `intelligence`. I am not saying we should walk away from our labs and research, but some fields of research should be debated on a larger scale and perhaps stalled till a later date. Like you said, I think it has to be monitored and chanelled (who monitors and channels it - the people who made the atomic bomb and used it when the war was almost over? Is there place in this monitoring for other people, who missed out on Industrial Rev and are barely trying to catch up with IT rev? And what about the countries whose people still starve despite there being no dearth of food for everyone on the planet?). A link - http://www.frenchanderson.org/ethics/ethics.html
#344 Posted by Aisha_Sarwari on October 9, 2000 10:27:16 pm
Assalmlaikum.
Well said Krashid and nelaasamunder!(Reply #: 340 and :341 )
``Jub kisi say koi gilla rakhna
Saamney apney aainaa rakhna``
--Learn a thing or two from your side of the world(Jagjit Singh`s ghazal)
I was once thinking of writing a book when I retire called, ``India and secularisim: A thousand ways supernumbered nations disguise their bad smell`` Then I thought again and decided, by that time India will still be braging about something it has not and it will become a ghissi pitti story... I would rather write about the progress Pakistan has made. (inshallah)
wassalam
-Aisha
Well said Krashid and nelaasamunder!(Reply #: 340 and :341 )
``Jub kisi say koi gilla rakhna
Saamney apney aainaa rakhna``
--Learn a thing or two from your side of the world(Jagjit Singh`s ghazal)
I was once thinking of writing a book when I retire called, ``India and secularisim: A thousand ways supernumbered nations disguise their bad smell`` Then I thought again and decided, by that time India will still be braging about something it has not and it will become a ghissi pitti story... I would rather write about the progress Pakistan has made. (inshallah)
wassalam
-Aisha
#343 Posted by Kant_Patel on October 9, 2000 4:10:01 pm
Correction to #350,
LIFO (Last..... s/b LIFO ( Last In First Out).
Sorry folks,
Kant......
LIFO (Last..... s/b LIFO ( Last In First Out).
Sorry folks,
Kant......
#342 Posted by Kant_Patel on October 9, 2000 1:52:34 pm
sb #325,
The ecology was `screwed`, and evolution started to `mess` up, when Adam was offered the celebrated apple :-); with emphasis on your word``screwed``!:-).
No,really, the lesson is that little act started an evolutionary change, a process (change) with no end. Rather than throw this process out of the bathtub, one needs to get a handle on it, and veer it into the positives rather than negatives. Otherwise, as someone already suggested, we would be devoid of trnasfussion, heart by-pass, organ replacements, etc. Yes, we need more of these `messing` up, not less, albeit with due monitoring and channelling to avoid the pitfalls.
slink #323
May be from your old posts (mistakenly, perhaps!), I got the impression that you are a Christian. I am terribly sorry , if I am mistaken. Anyway, I realize now, the comment was not appropriate or pertinent, though no sujective thought regarding your intentions was intended. Again, please allow me to retract, and apologise for my slip.
Kant......
temporal, #315
Please treat my response on rational, or shall I say humanistic!, grounds rather than in X religion vs. Y religion bashing terms. Thanks!!
I would somewhat agree with hamid`s response to your post, and would like to expand it a little further. IMHO, your argument reminds me of the cliche: chicken-and-egg argument. As a matter of fact your argument, if I may, in itself represents a cliche many times repeated on this humble site.
Now, are we going to hide, ever since the birth of the religions, behind ``it is not the religion, it is the followers`` (a generic quote, BTW). So my question is Is religion someting abstract entity? And, if so, can it exist in a sort of vaccum, i.e., without humans (the followers)? Alright, let us accept your contention, FTSOA, that religion is either pious, or, impartial, (my interpretation of yours and generally-held view), and, therefore, not subject to the human follies of bigotry, discriminations, etc. hamid refers to certain quranic injunctions in his response. Bearing in mind that the Book is a result of the divine revealations, and, also, that these very revealations (as depicted in the Book) created the Religion, can you still say that either the revealation is not what it implies, or, that we humans fail to understand the God`s language. temporal, have you ever wondered why the apologists always refer to one ayya or line to refute another line from the same source! In accounting, there are two methods for depreciation, namely, FIFO (First In First Out) & LIFO (Last In Last Out). Which method should be applied. Surely, not both! You know if those lines are not supposed to mean what they literally say, why not delete them instead of passing on qualifiers after qualifiers for centuries, nay?. No follower(intellectual or otherwise)thus far has had the guts to say so. Why? Because, that is the RELIGION. One more thing, The Pope is taken by the followers of Catholicism as the interpreter and custodian of that religion. What he says BECOMES an intricate part of the religion. He has told his clergy, specifically in Asia, to tell the non-believers that the religion they are following will not lead to salvation (i.e., read as, will lead to HELL instead),only following his R will though. Ok, so that is his and all his followers belief but not the religion`s. What comforting thought!
Again, without those believers religion is not worth the scriptures it is professed on, or in(?).
So, religion is afterall a relative thing , not abstract.
A disclaimer: the argument re. Book and Islam, IMO, equally applies to all (Semite, Hindu, and others not mentioned here). It applies to RELIGION. You cannot make somebody give up his R and accept your without bashing and degrading his R. Makes sense!!!
Kant......
The ecology was `screwed`, and evolution started to `mess` up, when Adam was offered the celebrated apple :-); with emphasis on your word``screwed``!:-).
No,really, the lesson is that little act started an evolutionary change, a process (change) with no end. Rather than throw this process out of the bathtub, one needs to get a handle on it, and veer it into the positives rather than negatives. Otherwise, as someone already suggested, we would be devoid of trnasfussion, heart by-pass, organ replacements, etc. Yes, we need more of these `messing` up, not less, albeit with due monitoring and channelling to avoid the pitfalls.
slink #323
May be from your old posts (mistakenly, perhaps!), I got the impression that you are a Christian. I am terribly sorry , if I am mistaken. Anyway, I realize now, the comment was not appropriate or pertinent, though no sujective thought regarding your intentions was intended. Again, please allow me to retract, and apologise for my slip.
Kant......
temporal, #315
Please treat my response on rational, or shall I say humanistic!, grounds rather than in X religion vs. Y religion bashing terms. Thanks!!
I would somewhat agree with hamid`s response to your post, and would like to expand it a little further. IMHO, your argument reminds me of the cliche: chicken-and-egg argument. As a matter of fact your argument, if I may, in itself represents a cliche many times repeated on this humble site.
Now, are we going to hide, ever since the birth of the religions, behind ``it is not the religion, it is the followers`` (a generic quote, BTW). So my question is Is religion someting abstract entity? And, if so, can it exist in a sort of vaccum, i.e., without humans (the followers)? Alright, let us accept your contention, FTSOA, that religion is either pious, or, impartial, (my interpretation of yours and generally-held view), and, therefore, not subject to the human follies of bigotry, discriminations, etc. hamid refers to certain quranic injunctions in his response. Bearing in mind that the Book is a result of the divine revealations, and, also, that these very revealations (as depicted in the Book) created the Religion, can you still say that either the revealation is not what it implies, or, that we humans fail to understand the God`s language. temporal, have you ever wondered why the apologists always refer to one ayya or line to refute another line from the same source! In accounting, there are two methods for depreciation, namely, FIFO (First In First Out) & LIFO (Last In Last Out). Which method should be applied. Surely, not both! You know if those lines are not supposed to mean what they literally say, why not delete them instead of passing on qualifiers after qualifiers for centuries, nay?. No follower(intellectual or otherwise)thus far has had the guts to say so. Why? Because, that is the RELIGION. One more thing, The Pope is taken by the followers of Catholicism as the interpreter and custodian of that religion. What he says BECOMES an intricate part of the religion. He has told his clergy, specifically in Asia, to tell the non-believers that the religion they are following will not lead to salvation (i.e., read as, will lead to HELL instead),only following his R will though. Ok, so that is his and all his followers belief but not the religion`s. What comforting thought!
Again, without those believers religion is not worth the scriptures it is professed on, or in(?).
So, religion is afterall a relative thing , not abstract.
A disclaimer: the argument re. Book and Islam, IMO, equally applies to all (Semite, Hindu, and others not mentioned here). It applies to RELIGION. You cannot make somebody give up his R and accept your without bashing and degrading his R. Makes sense!!!
Kant......
#341 Posted by ylh on October 9, 2000 1:52:34 pm
Rsaxena,
Please read my post again... I believe you have the answer to your question which you have repeated a 1000 times.
Turkey has always taken a pro right of self determination stance for Kashmir.
If you are not going to answer the following questions please refrain from wasting my time.
1)Did you know that Turkey supported Pakistan in the 1965 and 1971 wars?
2)Did you know that Pakistan and Turkey were part of the RCD?
3)Did you know that the Turks call Jinnah ..
Jinnah pasha?
4)Did you know that a major avenue in Ankara, I believe that the Indian Embassy is on that avenue, is called Jinnah Cadevesi?
5)Did you know that Bulen Ecevet the Prime Minister of Turkey right now was in jail for being the enemy of secularism in 1980????????
Yasser Hamdani
PS Indians can try but they will never ever have true Turkish loyalty that we enjoy .... Maybe you should try and talk to some Turks .. they will set you straight.... Almost all Turks I know are extremely cordial towards Pakistan and pro Pakistan on Kashmir.
#340 Posted by sabah on October 9, 2000 1:52:34 pm
Shandana,
A very moving article indeed - but then Muslims in India get ostrasized too - so where do we start and where do we finish this argument....
... Maybe one day - somewhere in time we humans might just be able to discover this secret and then live in harmony.
A very moving article indeed - but then Muslims in India get ostrasized too - so where do we start and where do we finish this argument....
... Maybe one day - somewhere in time we humans might just be able to discover this secret and then live in harmony.
#339 Posted by Humsab on October 9, 2000 1:52:34 pm
krashid
Your response # 340
I am impressed with your concern for Indians in Kashmir and savagery etc.
What will you say about what Pakistan Army/ Govt. did in Balauchistan in 70s, Sindh in 80s and MQM in 90s and all along for last 50 years in Northern Areas where your current CEO made a record of achievments in killing, oppression and exploitation?
Your response # 340
I am impressed with your concern for Indians in Kashmir and savagery etc.
What will you say about what Pakistan Army/ Govt. did in Balauchistan in 70s, Sindh in 80s and MQM in 90s and all along for last 50 years in Northern Areas where your current CEO made a record of achievments in killing, oppression and exploitation?
#338 Posted by Urstruly on October 9, 2000 8:27:57 am
RE: Slink
I think you need a vacation-trust me there is nothing wrong with it.
I think you need a vacation-trust me there is nothing wrong with it.
#337 Posted by slink on October 9, 2000 5:51:05 am
neelasamundar,
to answer your questions..no i have never been to India. i do have family there though. what happened at the Babri Mosque was inexcusable, and what happened in the aftermath in Pakistan was also inexcusable. two wrongs dont make a right.
what do i have to say about Kashmir? i dont think you want to hear what i have to say about Kashmir so i`ll just echo your own thoughts..ganday mailay hindu kuttay..right? my article was not about indians in karachi, my article was about pakistani hindus. i will take into serious consideration your suggestion to highlight the many human rights abuses in India.
shandana
to answer your questions..no i have never been to India. i do have family there though. what happened at the Babri Mosque was inexcusable, and what happened in the aftermath in Pakistan was also inexcusable. two wrongs dont make a right.
what do i have to say about Kashmir? i dont think you want to hear what i have to say about Kashmir so i`ll just echo your own thoughts..ganday mailay hindu kuttay..right? my article was not about indians in karachi, my article was about pakistani hindus. i will take into serious consideration your suggestion to highlight the many human rights abuses in India.
shandana
#336 Posted by krashid on October 9, 2000 4:48:36 am
RSaxena#337
It is simply a matter of perspective.
If Indian economy has suddenly become from worse to bad, how are the majority of Indian faring and have been.
If the economy of Pakistan has taken a turn from bad to worse, how are the people of Pakistan faring.
In 1971 I agree with you.
And your remarks on Kashmiris, I am waiting for history to give its verdict. How do you think about 1000 years of slavery. Was it God`s wrath for something like Kashmir committed in past against its own people. Do you think it was a ``Be Awaaz Lathi of God`` which you have failed to realize. (That is why it is called Be Awaaz)
It is simply a matter of perspective.
If Indian economy has suddenly become from worse to bad, how are the majority of Indian faring and have been.
If the economy of Pakistan has taken a turn from bad to worse, how are the people of Pakistan faring.
In 1971 I agree with you.
And your remarks on Kashmiris, I am waiting for history to give its verdict. How do you think about 1000 years of slavery. Was it God`s wrath for something like Kashmir committed in past against its own people. Do you think it was a ``Be Awaaz Lathi of God`` which you have failed to realize. (That is why it is called Be Awaaz)
#335 Posted by krashid on October 9, 2000 4:45:28 am
RSaxena#337
It is simply a matter of perspective.
If Indian economy has suddenly become from worse to bad, how are the majority of Indian faring and have been.
If the economy of Pakistan has taken a turn from bad to worse, how are the people of Pakistan faring.
In 1971 I agree with you.
And your remarks on Kashmiris, I am waiting for history to give its verdict. How do you think about 1000 years of slavery. Was it God`s wrath for something like Kashmir committed in past against its own people. Do you think it was a ``Be Awaaz Lathi of God`` which you have failed to realize. (That is why it is called Be Awaaz)
It is simply a matter of perspective.
If Indian economy has suddenly become from worse to bad, how are the majority of Indian faring and have been.
If the economy of Pakistan has taken a turn from bad to worse, how are the people of Pakistan faring.
In 1971 I agree with you.
And your remarks on Kashmiris, I am waiting for history to give its verdict. How do you think about 1000 years of slavery. Was it God`s wrath for something like Kashmir committed in past against its own people. Do you think it was a ``Be Awaaz Lathi of God`` which you have failed to realize. (That is why it is called Be Awaaz)
#334 Posted by Chowk Staff on October 8, 2000 7:10:46 pm
A few InterActors! have been consistently using the InterAct! space to post messages that have no connection with either the article or the ongoing discussion. In the interest of other readers and writers please refrain from doing this as it diminishes the value of this valuable space. To announce and or voice opinions that are not related to the posted articles you should use the Speakers Corner and the Chowk Forum`s. From our end we will soon provide a service that can allow your to post your impromptu emotions and opinions.
Thank you.
Thank you.
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