Hidden Hindus

......Aaaahhh! the memories. The red dawn. The bear hugs. We could have never imagined how Gratefully Dead we would be. But, aaah!, the memories.....

RE hamidm

A friend of the devil is a friend of mine. Had too much of those hash brownies, haven`t you?

Peace

ylh # 44

..... yes, my young friend, Sunday Schools do exist in the US - but in the last twenty odd years all of Pakistan has turned into one big perverse Sunday School, aka Madrassa - thanks to the miracle of Islamic Revivalism ..... for those of us who are old enough to remember the good old days when an Ahmedi was considered a human being and one could get a decent gin and tonic at Pindi Club, the present day religious mania is frightening..... old friends who once leaned nervously on Zammurad`s niece`s gao-takias on Main Street Hira Mandi, now click their worry beads and mutter Jazak-Allah and Inshallah as they sit at Kalia and Kalia, turning rupees into dollars that they want you to deposit in their US accounts......... they rant and rave against Christians and Ahmedis, Shias and Beralvis, always ending up with the Jews - not that they have ever seen or met one ....

.... they are all honorable men now - saying their prayers four times a day and making sure their, once beautiful, now wide-bottomed middle aged wives dress modestly and put on an Arab head-dress....... they talk about buying apartments in Toronto and the decadence of the West, as they flip through the US College Guide for their sons and daughters ......

........... as a frequent, twice a year visitor to Pakistan, I don`t know who is worse - the Pakistani-American with his Arabized version of Islam, or the resident Pakistani with his pure Talibanized version ........ the fact remains that religion has insidiously penetrated and perverted our national psyche and now holds us hostage as the world passes us by ........

...... oh sure, in the drawing rooms of Islamabad and Lahore and Karachi, there is a lot of talk about freedom and liberty and human rights.... the latest edition of the The Friday Times is discussed as Allah Ditta brings in the samosas and Begum-Sahib passes the Swiss Chocolate that she bought at Godiva`s on Park Avenue .......... the Brigadier, now a General Manager at Fauji Foundation feverishly tries to call his connection at the Thai embassy as he is running low on his stock of Scotch ........ all this activity comes to an abrupt end as one Azan blares from a nearby mosque, then another, then another ..... soon a cacophony of religious noise overcomes the soothing hum of the air conditioner .... but everyone looks solemn as the women adjust the duppatas on their heads and try to cover up sleeveless arms and the men speed up their worry beads .......it is tough being human when Allah is watching..........

hamidm: #145: Your sarcasm is actually quite entertaining, and creative. However, I think you are being a bit too harsh on the Quran. It`s not as bad as you think. Maybe the translation you have in your possession wasn`t the best available at Amazon.com, or was conveniently edited by someone. Here are some other translations of the same verse you quoted in your reply:

47:4: ``If you encounter (in war) those who disbelieve, you may strike the necks. If you take them as captives you may set them free or ransom them, until the war ends. Had GOD willed, He could have granted you victory, without war. But He thus tests you by one another. As for those who get killed in the cause of GOD, He will never put their sacrifice to waste.`` (from Rashid Khalifa`s translation)

47:4 ``Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah’s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.`` (from Abdullah Yusufali`s translation)

47:4 ``Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.`` (from Marmaduke Pickthall`s translation)

So, different strokes for different folks. And different translations for different folks. I have gone through Pickthall`s translation in great detail, and I found it quite an easy read. Seems to me, like this verse 47:4 is intended to be implied only during war. So non-Muslims can sleep easy. Muslims will not be striking your necks; unless of course, there is a war (or if they pick up hamidm`s translation at Amazon and not Pickthall`s :)).

My favorite verse in the Quran, is the following from Chapter 2, The Cow:

``Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.`` (2:62, from Pickthall`s translation)

So, Jews and Christians are in. Sabaeans were worshipers of the heavenly bodies, and even they are in. However, I am not quite sure where the above verse places Hindus.

Do the Hindus, ``believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right.`` I know quite a few Hindus who, ``doeth right.`` Dictionary.com states that Allah means God. And us ulema (you and I) know the Hindus do believe in God. Now what are the concepts of, ``Last Day`` in Hinduism. My knowledge about Hinduism ends right about there, so maybe one of our Indian friends can answer this one. But, even if the Hindus do not have a concept of the, ``Last Day,`` they still get 2 out 3. Maybe, Allah will say that 2 out of 3 ain`t bad, and He`ll let the Hindus in also, along with us Muslims, Jews, Christians and Sabaeans.

Heaven would be a bit boring without Ashwariya Rai, though. Don`t your think. Then again what do I know.

KRashid

{{But compared to posts from Indian sides, where they have been frankly abusive against Islam, and Prophet PBUH.}}

If they have, then I will be the first to say that it is very regretable. As a fellow human being, it is unconsionable to do that against any religion. Having said that,I guess I have a bad memory or I`m guilty of filtering out anti-Islamic insults. Please help my memory (& mind you, you may be right) & point out which posts were insulting to Islam or the Prophet PBUH.

{{I have always attacked the human rights abuses in India and sarcastically what India is. I have not attacked your personal beliefs on religion, nor did I participated on famous Heeng board. etc.}}

Maybe not. However,I hope you will agree that some Pakistanis have. The ``heeng board`` was a prime example or your good friend Farangi-Kush`s `` cow dung-urine`` statements.

There are uncivilised idiots on both sides. To form an opinion about a country/religion based on the views of a few extremists is wrong.

Re:SameerJB#128

Sameer, you wrote

``Muslims in general accept Christians and Jews as the people of the ``Book`` but most do not have similar feeling toward Hindus, even if they may be their cousins going back to 10-12 generations.``

This is a very insightful observation. I think that it is a legacy inherited from the muslim invaders, who much like the british, looked down upon the darker skinned, infidel desis. You cannot conquer a people until you demonize them. When desis converted to Islam, they not only got the religion, but they also got the prejudices of the muslim invaders who brought Islam here. The reason I say this is because if you talk with Arabs or Iranians, they do not have anything against hindus or Indians. Clearly it is not something to do with Islam. Rather it is the legacy of the invaders that gets merged with the Islamic identity in the subcontinent.

The question is why do desi muslims continue to pass on this legacy from one generation to the next? After all, they know quite well that they are desis like hindus. What is even more absurd, is that fanatic hindus (Bal Thackrey types) treat desi muslims as if they are outsiders or invaders. In one breath they say that desi muslims are converts and in the other breath they call them arabs, mughals, ghaznavi/ghori descendents etc. I think that this phenomenon simply shows that we desis are irrational and we lack common sense.

Desi muslims through out the subcontinent should step back and evaluate their concepts about hindus that they have inherited. They should look at the Islamic world and do some calibration of their opinions. Not a single Islamic country hates India. Rather they are lining up to develop strong relations with India. Similary hindus need to step back and realize that if they hate Ghaznavi, Babur etc., why take it out on our desi neighbors ? If you have the guts, lash out against Turkey or Uzbekistan, why hate the poor muslim guy living in Lahore or Delhi ? To this day, I have never seen a RSS type guy criticize Turkey, Iran or Uzbekistan. It is always Pakistan. Maybe the Islamic world can send in some high ranking clerics who can meet with desi muslim clerics and hindu priests to update the hindu-muslim relations for the future. If the Saudis tell Pakistan to stop hating India, maybe the Pakistanis will listen.

It was a good article indeed, all my life I lived in Pakistan and I didn`t meet any Hindu and here in USA I have met a very friendly Hindu Pakistani. Religious persecution is a fact in our country. I remember a Muslim medical student in Dow Medical College being shot dead by a Jamiat student for celebrating Hindu ritual of holi. And many Ahmadi doctors and professors shot dead in our institutions of higher learning. Media doesn`t give much projection to these news stories, but as concsientious Pakistanis and Muslims we should protect and respect beliefs of our minorities.

In previous govt a bill was passed by Punjab govt to change the name of Qadiani`s holy city `Rabwah` to `Mustafabad`. After declaring them non Muslim in 1973, the witch hunting must have been stopped, but no, our people can`t even tolerate existence of minorities. Christians are mostly janitors, there utensils, etc are kept separate. One of my friend told that one of his relative (a maulavi) had beaten his wife because she didn`t stop the Christian jamadar from playing with their baby.

Now moving to a more important issue of Blasphemy. I have recently read a very informaive book ``Shatam e Rasool Ka Masala`` by Maulana Waheed ud Din. He has given historical account of all the blasphemeers in Prophet Mohammed`s (PBUH) time, in no instance had he ordered their killing, even when he had all the resources and even when a son of a blasphemeer asked Prophet`s peremission to kill his father. All this shows that blasphemy law is secular in origin and has no Islamic origin.

Here in USA I meet people on campus nearly every day distributing copies of new testament, Jewish or Muslim literature, and no on gets inflamed. The secret of America`s success lies partly in tolerating difference of opinion and free practice of each individual`s religion. And tolerance for difference of opinion is what we desperately need.

Rsaxena

I really dont want to engage you in any discussion

but

1)Pakistan was not made for Islam ... the truly Islamic fundamentalist parties like Ahrar and Jamaat e Islami were active against its creation calling Pakistan Kafiristan and Jinnah KafireAzam.. Ahrar, the extremist party, was actually in alliance with the great ``Mahatma`` himself.

2)Pakistan was not named Islamic Republic of Pakistan till 1956 and it was dropped again by Ayub in 1962... Pakistan became republic of Pakistan... to appease the fundoos Bhutto`s constitution called it the Islamic Republic of Pakistan ... but Bhutto style Islamic republic we can stand... its Zia style republic which is bad.

Hamidm

Yes, generally there has been a rise in ``religious piety`` but as my friends and I were discussing it ... it has more to do with Economic conditions of Pakistan.. the rich elite is perhaps getting more and more westernized... Sir you can have better than just decent gin and tonic in Pakistan ... the poor people with harsh socioeconomic conditions are becoming more and more Islamicized.

However what maybe the level of ``religious morality`` which seems to be on the rise... I am optimistic of Pakistan`s political structure to move towards secularization as espoused by Jinnah.

With that said, I also believe and we can get into the finer religious points of this later.. that a political system truly according to the spirit of Islam would be a secular democratic system....

Yasser Latif Hamdani

Lubna ji and Shandana ji . . . we are not having shortage of khakee chaddees in India at all . . . so if you are wanting to take on soul distributorship for khake chaddees for Pakistan (my father having some land near Falettis Hotel he is saying) and can help me set up registered office and open bank account and find lawyer etc . . . then maybe we will stop the Indian Army (who wear green by the way) from para dropping all variety of khakee chaddees over Orangi and Clifton and Defence and Bin Qasim (I am learning about these places from CIA guide to pakistan which is also giving me secret telephone numbers of all actresses in pakistan and that little girl with jhumkas on PTV who is saying all the time in git-mit git-pit English accent oh so lovely) . . . also last time I am seeing Pakistani beaches on Discovery Channel I am not seeing any ladies in chaddees but I am seeing many VW Beetle cars so maybe we will design chaddees for them (the cars) too?

And what is this about gaanja and Taliban? Oh, I understand, mutual co-existence . . . do you know, the pusher never pulls?

krashid...#136...

i agree with more or less what u have written.

but when u say that we project issues of pakistan to suit our own frame of reference, don`t u think that u r being bais here. doesn`t this sort of thing happen in your country or for that matter in each and every country. doesn`t every country try and project its own good to its people and negative points about foes and enemies.

as far as indians being with the state is concerned, let me try and put it in a different way. we in india believe that india is on a threshold of a major economic boom, the kind seen in china in the 80`s and 90`s. for this to happen, the state has to play a major role and hence we r supporting our govt and hoping that they will not let us down. so far i feel that the govt is doing reasonably well. for me, Mr. Vajpayee is possibly the best thing to happen to india after independence.

about the pakistani frame of reference, i don`t think i am in the right position to comment. but i guess i would agree with what u have mentioned.

``But I think in India the phenomenon of labelling is very common even by educated people, which is reflected on this board.``

why just in india, labelling is common everywhere. hasn`t pakistan been unoffcially labelled as a terrorist state, but does that mean that everyone in pakistan is a terrorist???

why just pick on indians and similarly i feel its not right to just pick on pakistanis. both our countries have more important issues to deal with than to fight each other.

ylh #143....

was i the first to get personal with u and when i did call u a hypocrite, was it without good reason????

but anyway....u still haven`t answered my simple question.

what do u mean by my kind of people?????

devkant.

The hallucinations of red sanguine dawns under the spell of hemp stuffed Pakora and Ghaiba Masih`s kuppie, makes sense. But who could have imagined that the change of Kaaba was as easy as peeing through the leg of a bell-bottomed pants.

Please, somebody tell me the name of a drama in which Hafeez Fatima appeared. I should like to see her thobrra. Thank you.

EXHAUSTED CHRISTIANS OF KERALA,

In the early forties in the southeren part of kerala many hindus, especially from the lower caste converted to christianity. At that time, it did a lot of good for the people, specifically in material and educational terms. It did not really alter their social standing, because in kerala even with in chrisinity new converts are looked down up on, considering the fact that St Thomas, a deciple of christ came to kerala and converted people.

When the children of these christians reached an age for university education, they realised that the `reservations` availabe for low caste people are not availabe to them, being christians. They went on a campaign, asking for reservation, they wanted to be treated as hindus, as though they belonged to the original caste.

Finall merxist govt. passed a legislation declaring them as a backward caste and named them ``exhausted christians``. With a million gods, hindus did not bother, another bearded god with a name jesus, what is the problem.

I never knew that ahmadias are `muslims` with only one belief different, they believe that there could be other profets. All of that crap in blasphemy laws are for this. I am ready to thank even allah for being born in an inclusive religion, not one that defines and creates kafirs and sends jihadists to kill them. Poor ahmadias, and even the educated on the chowk seem to concur that they are not muslims.

PAKISTANIS, PLEASE BE SILENT,

from dawn of today,

Minorities in India

THIS is in response to the article in opinion column of DAWN on 28th Sept titled ``Electoral system and the minorities`` by Khalid Rahman. He says ``the situation for minorities in India in education, employment, army, and other sectors, is worse than in Pakistan.``

This is really ridiculous. Can Ms Rahman tell us how many non-Muslim have been appointed as ministers at federal level since 1947 in Pakistan? Or how many non-Muslims have been in top posts in army, supreme court or other govt establishments?

If Mr Rahman prepares this list and compares that with a similar list of non-Hindu Indians at top positions in India, he would realise the plight of minorities in Pakistan. Pakistan has about 1.5% Hindus and 2% Christians, the same percentage as Sikhs in India. Now compare the Sikhs representation in Indian union with that of Hindus and Christians in Pakistan and you will have your answer. Babri mosque demolition was definitely a tragedy, but what of the hundreds of Hindu temples destroyed in Pakistan in last 50 years?

I`m not claiming that India is a perfect example of a secular country, but at least it honestly tries to be one in spite of all the problems. Riots do happen, but it should also be kept in mind that India has one billion population with 200 million members of the minority community.

Before I complete this letter let me refer to the last full scale war that India and Pakistan fought in 1971. The Indian Army Chief was General Sam Maneckshaw, a Parisi, the Western front was commanded by Lt Gen K.P. Candeth, a Christian Anglo-Indian, the Eastern front was commanded by Lt Gen J.S. Aurora, a Sikh, and General Aurora`s Chief of Staff was Major Gen J.F.R. Jacob, from a Jewish family of Calcutta. Now imagine that.

An Indian

Santa Clara, CA, USA

Pakistan is much the poorer for its maltreatment of the minorities. I asked people about this phenomenon right from my high school days and to a man [to women such a question proved non-relevant], they have been saying ``Islam is very protective of the minorities, *and it gave women the right of owning property``...ad infinitim.

I have said goodbye to these arguments and, therefore to Chowk. It is very painful to countenance these arguments, the self righteousness, the recitation of passages from the Q`ur`an, the a`ha`dees [no `th` for me. I have a language of my own!], the sunna[t], that are cited in these responses make me sick.

I say, ``I have said goodbye to Chowk``. But I appear today. It is as if one, after leaving a mohallah or a city, just happens to pass through it after years.

There were many other reasons for my departure from the Chowk a few months ago. The major reason was that I found the Hindus most vicious in their thinking and arguments.

And I found the Muslims most vicious in their thinking and arguments.

I could not visualize a world in which an irresistable force was acting on an immovable object. So, I left.

* Issi t`rh baat sé baat nikl`ti hai na![non sequitur]

Pakistan is much the poorer for its maltreatment of the minorities. I asked people about this phenomenon right from my high school days and to a man [to women such a question proved non-relevant], they have been saying ``Islam is very protective of the minorities, *and it gave women the right of owning property``...ad infinitim.

I have said goodbye to these arguments and, therefore to Chowk. It is very painful to countenance these arguments, the self righteousness, the recitation of passages from the Q`ur`an, the a`ha`dees [no `th` for me. I have a language of my own!], the sunna[t], that are cited in these responses make me sick.

I say, ``I have said goodbye to Chowk``. But I appear today. It is as if one, after leaving a mohallah or a city, just happens to pass through it after years.

There were many other reasons for my departure from the Chowk a few months ago. The major reason was that I found the Hindus most vicious in their thinking and arguments.

And I found the Muslims most vicious in their thinking and arguments.

I could not visualize a world in which an irresistable force was acting on an immovable object. So, I left.

* Issi t`rh baat sé baat nikl`ti hai na![non sequitur]