Hidden Hindus

Reply TO SARWARI # 6

Hi,

I concur with you to the extent that the real scenario in pakistan is not as bad as it is projected out to be.

But i take objection to what you say about India. You said that `` we should ensure we don`t do with them what India did or still does with its minorities. ``

Sir, i feel this is grossly overstated. I know that i am saying this on the background of the worst ever insult perpetrated on a religious minority ( i am referring to babri masjid ), but i feel the religious freedom enjoyed by the minorities in India is very high. I wont state any press clippings or international reports to support this, but i tell it from my personal experiences.

ya, we had pretty nasty incidents in our post independance history, the intermittent clashes in the Nawabi towns such as hyderabad etc., probably the muslims in bombay will never be the same again, but u must understand that India is a huge country sir. and poor .

that is the key word . POOR . if u trace the origin of any of these clashes, it will be either politically motivated or the underlying reason will be economics. it is an outcome of ``pie being constant.``

I again know that i am making a gross generalization, there is this incident of Babri masjid and some other incidents which might not lend themselves to these theories. But more often than not, these clashes are either politically motivated or due to economic reasons,

Here i am talking about clashes between Hindus and Muslims in Hyderabad in early nineties ( it is an open secret that it is due to the clashes between two factions in the then ruling Congress party), the clashes between hindus and muslims in bangalore because of the urdu news, etc.

Now it is fashinable to look upto west for the so called secular idealogies, but we all know the genocides perpetrated against Jews in west all throughout Middle ages till the world war 2. Now that they are rich, now that they can ensure all the minimum basic needs to their people , they can and do talk about all the crap about secularism. and even now when there is any threat for them , they turn their ire on minorities. ( Germany)

If there is any religion which preaches secularism, it is Hinduism. Actually secularism as defined now is not preached by Hinduism, Hinduism preaches much more than that, It does not preaches religious tolerance, it preaches religious acceptance. It is one of the truly magnificient theories developed by human beings. And I say it without pride. I dont know much about other religions to comment about them, but the breadth of Hinduism is unparalleled.

You may say that so what ? anyone can intrepret the religious texts in the way they want, but are you practising it?, I agree with you. I myself, am not a perfect Hindu, I still feel uncomfortable when a muslim eats beef besides me, i am still unable to accept them as they are.

But what i want to conclude is that we hindus are not bigotic, narrow minded. you compare India with any country similar to it with such diversity and such poverty , then you will know why Hinduism sustains India. you can even compare with the rich middle east asian countries..

I pesonally have lived with muslims and christians from the interior parts of

Andhra Pradesh to Hyderabad to now in calcutta.and believe me sir, no discrimination , absolutely no discrimination..

believe me the very top can be a limit for a religious minority in india, i have seen it all through out my life. if they are capable nothing gonna stop them. even now, in our institute , the most sought after position , placement secretary is a christian... sometimes i wonder where all this discrimination against christians is coming from...

```` I am not justifying ours but, please don`t look at things through articles and media hypes, the real thing is not as bad.``````

this statement sums it all, sir. you cannot have said it better. it is the same on this side of the border also.

cheers, lookin forward for a fruitful, dispassionate discussion,

jntuece99

Dear Shandana,

I have not yet ever written a response to your articles on chowk. The truth is that I was happy to be an unknown fan of your brilliant writing. I have read most of your pieces here. I have been stalking you as it were?on this site at least.

The latest article has the misfortune of catching me at the crest of a renewed enthusiasm after a longish break. I notice that one of your most relevant and moving articles, in terms of nationalistic responses, is relatively speaking one of your worst in terms of writing. I am here pitting you only against your own standards. I agree with Layman when he says what he does about your article?but only about the standard of writing. I have no qualms?nor do I agree with him on the pathological need for analysis. Stylistically?I feel that the article was not a patch on your other good pieces.

However, when it still manages to convert a Jay into a fan and an admirer, it speaks truly of having achieved something. I believe that it was an article whose (I am personalising the piece here?temporal?) author`s sensitivity trickled down to the reader. That it humbled him is even a greater compliment to him?and you.

But Jay`s seems to me a politically aware?and stoutly unhypocritical ?sensibility touched primarily by the content. The article does not for the first time invalidate his stand?but also offers a subliminal espousal of his stand?but from the other side of the border.

Jay?is correct on the Brahman part. But it is a tiny nit?that does not interfere with either your piece?or alloy his pure admiration.

Rdesikan`s is also a correction that is valuable. ``Since I`m from what you call ``Tamil South India`` I couldn`t understand those hindi/urdu/punjabi? phrases. `` But perhaps?more appropriate to an Indian writer. Which is not to mean that Pakistani/ non-Indian writers should not be aware of the difference. Only, in their case, it is more forgivable.

Temporal?

This business of goof ups?the confession?I am guilty of this on this same issue of Chowk?as you rightly pointed out?but you did it too on Shandana`s thread. So I presume?I have won back my sustainance on your mailing list.

Your Hindusim, as available in the article, is often encyclopedic but that is something to be admired. That it has floored jay is a great achievement.

``Jay chetta?shemikkanam.

However, Layman`s crtiticism of the style and presentation is something I too echo.

The vignettes you present are very good..and well presented too.

Hope this ramble makes sense.

Any inprintable response is welcome at namby@indiainfo.com

Re Sarwari # 6

How do you know that India doesn`t treat its minorities well? Where did you get that info or who taught it to you? There are as many, if not more muslims in India than in your country, and it is mighty hard to keep them down, unless of course, you have military rule. India may not have the best record in minority treatment, but our record is nothing to be ashamed of. Yes the current government is not exactly pro-muslim, but then we live something you may not know about...a pluralistic democracy. And being in a coalition government they cannot afford to be anti-muslim. These nuts could be voted out just as easily. They did not get to power through the barrel of a gun. Another point to note: the babri masjid was knocked down during Congress [?] rule and the current party could have easily built a mandir cause they rule the land, right? But then, we also have something else you may not be aware of...the rule of law. There are enough restrictions in the books to prevent these nuts from doing what they desire, despite the fact they may happen to be in power.

India is a developing country which means its majority is still behind. There are poor hindus as there are poor muslims. When the vast majority suffers economically, it is not a result of wilful government intervention that this particular community suffers.

Another thing: At the time of partition, yes there was violence. But the muslims who chose to stay behind did not have to lose property or convert their religion to stay. Can you say that of Pakistan? Why then did your non-muslim population drop from about a third to next to nothing?

Muslims in India have done far, far better than hindus, or for that matter, muslims in pakistan. I can shoot off the names...2 Presidents, numerous ministers and diplomats, movie stars and singers, writers and painters, sculptors and soldiers, tycoons and teachers, and on and on [geez, I was starting to alliterate here]. The government actually pays for the Haj pilgrimage for almost a 100,000 Indian muslims---even to this day. Yup, those so-called saffron thugs in power are footing the bill. You know what, Shias are definitely safer in India than in your country. If Indian muslims are so put down and treated like dirt, they ought to be migrating to the land of the pure, right?

Of late there have been troubling reports of violence against the minorities in India which I deplore. But put that in perspective. You also have nuts scrawling swastikas on synagogues in the US and race baiting as well. Sarwari, plurality is the name of the game in India. There are just so many groups and sects in Hinduism that we learn to tolerate one another. We just don`t go around torching the other`s temples or shooting people while at prayer. It is a lot easier to be a minority in India than it is in Pakistan. Or do I have to upper case it like your bud to get the point across.

And finally...wow, Hindu servants must be doing great because...``They have well organized communities, they have a dish and TV at home...`` I feel so deflated. Our muslim driver back home only has cable and lives in his own house among infidels and poor chap, he does not watch Pakistani movies or serials.

Thank you for spreading knowledge about life in Pakistan. I guess some Muslims and Hindus have a rough time in India, I guess some Hindus and Muslims have a rough time in Pakistan, that is nature. But when the State & the Executive & the Judiciary & the Armed Forces & maybe even the media tries to differentiate on grounds of religion in one country while trying hard to go the other way in another, and when both these countries are neighbours with common heritages, then what happens?

Then, again, I think nature takes over and like water finding its own level, you will find, probably, that intelligence moves towards what intelligent people will perceive as being correct.

So, Shandana, what is correct? Is it correct that in the name of religion, human beings, migratory species if we ever were one, move to better and more amenable climes?

And what is religion but an ongoing attempt to usurp what the intelligent leave behind while looking for improvements?

Ahmediyas, Boris, Brelvis, Hindus, Sindhis, Parsees, Christians, Jews . . .

Shandana
I read this article earlier in the TFT and I liked the snippets about actual people, in this case Pakistani Hindus.

I have noticed that at least in the web versions of Pakistani newspapers and even their special sections articles are mostly opinions, with any quotes/anecdotes from ` real people` almost entirely absent. This seems the case even in news stories. In many cases even `concerned officials` are not interviewed, its mostly an official press statement which is quoted. Readers` letters are the one place one gets to hear the words and thoughts of `real people`. I`m not sure how it is on Pakistani TV?

So I`m hoping we will see more of this style, covering a broad spectrum of Pakistani life and society and not just the minorities.

About the intent of the article, well, with an overwhelmingly Hindu neighbour and a long common history, its makes me feel even sadder to see it published as something unique. Pakistan ought to have had institutes of research and academics(if they donot already) related to ancient languages and literature and the rest of the subcontinent`s religious/cultural heritages, including Hinduism and Buddhism. Its a shared heritage, acceptable or not, to be `milked` for all it can offer. (no wish to start a controversy here, its just my own opinion).

Sadhana

pullu #16:

[And if your post #13 is from the heart then it is too good.]

If there’s any lingering doubts -- straight from the heart!

Moderation is the key word. I have friends from every spectrum, religious, not-so-religious, atheists and agnostics. Their one common thread is moderation. I love and respect them all. (here I go --- if only we spread a little more moderation around there is bound to be a little less hell on earth.)

Love goes well in equal measure with Hate. As it must. And I’ll confess I hate Excess --- any and every kind of excess. Noticed my vituperative retorts to ‘that’ personification of Hatred here?

So is that normal?

regards,

temporal

Shandana:

Interesting and informative article. I hope I`m not alone in the embarrassment and guilt I felt after having read this. Not because I myself treat people from different backgrounds differently (their ethnicity, religion, etc are the last things on my mind), but because belonging to a ``majority`` I somehow feel responsible for this. What makes me miserable is the way we use religion and ethnicity as the deciding factor when it comes to judging people. And this is not the case in Pakistan alone - it`s almost everywhere I`ve been.

One thing though about your writing style though - the article seemed disjointed. You kept on jumping from one point to another without any coherence. One example:

``Once a year there is an unusual number of bangs in the city. People look at each other and nod, ``It must be divali.`` There is a also trend amongst fiery big-mouthed 90s women to include a rang amongst their wedding ceremonies. Everyone runs around throwing colour on each other and squealing. In the leading papers` yearly ``round-up of architecture Karachi should be proud of`` the Hindu Gymkhana and Swami Narayan Mandir are pointed out, freshly photographed. The twisted implementation of the blasphemy law and the rabidity of zealots ensure that the Hindu community maintains a low profile. The many festivals in their religious calendar are celebrated softly.``

-Lubna

Given the rabid factionalism displayed by some of our inelligensia in an enligtened forum, - I think is evidence enough that 2 nation theory cannot be all trash. The fact remains, that a large majority of Pakistanis are anti-Hindu, atleast on a national scale, this does not preclude a small ( and enligtened) but vocal intelligensia from building bridges with our neighbours to the east.

On the other hand, Regardless of what the constitution of India proclaims, the majority of Indians, have a decidedly anti-Muslim bias.
Aside from ceremonial positions, or erstwhile exceptional individuals, - Muslims face discrimination in India as a fact of life.

On a personal note, one of my better friends happens to be a Sindhi Hindu, and though I harbor only good wishes for him and he for me, we are both skeptical of the magnanimous nature of Pakistani And Indian government policies. In my case, it is both the governments.

But this is hardlly suprising, in a country like the US where race prejudice is fairly strong, despite govt policies & media pronoucements, - the bias against minorities and women despite tremendous generational strides still exists.

The fact of the matter is ( I am not going to discuss India here, the same principle applies in India, but with a fascade of civility) that any state that believes to have an exclusive monoply on the truth will inherently be a tryannical one.

The plight of minorities in Pakistan is dispicable, particularly the poor ones, they have to justify their loyalty to the state and to the ignorant morons at large time and time again.

Even affluent and enligtened minorities such as the Parsis, who have given more to the people of Pakistan than the self-proclaimed Islamic republic, have seen the wrong end of the beaurocratic or feudal stick.

Regardless, of what we think of the British, you cannot deny them civility at the policy making level, that is more than can be said for the Indians and Pakistanis and their post-independence suppressions of regional insurgencies.

Chalo bhai, hum gunahgaar hi sahi.
Have stayed with Hindus, eaten with them (great
cooks), love to converse with them, admire their
recent success in the United States, glad that
many love their mother country (India or Pakistan), still like to give them a rough time
while defending Pakistan on Kashmir, BUT TO THIS DAY IN THE SEA OF WHITE FACES I CONTINUE TO SEEK DESIS FOR LIGHT CONVERSATION AND BS NO MATTER WHAT THEIR RELIGION.
The entire mindset needs to change in Pakistan
AND India on a variety of topics especially
religion or else ...

Gunahgaar

Ras H. Siddiqui

sadna #21

PTV is a government owned organization and more insipid than newspapers and magazines. In other words, don`t even think about it man! :)
As for the rest of your post re research institutes etc. hmm perhaps one day :) I tell you what though, INDIANS who migrated to Pakistan after partition have been instrumental in creating this environment which, to put it politely, is not conducive to such endeavors. (And I do wish to start a controversy here :))

fairdinkum #26
Tsk,tsk aisa nahin bolte. But I understand what you are saying. And news flash: `Pakistanis` were Indians, too when those `Indians` landed. Now I retreat into my foxhole :-).
Sadhana

sadna #27

That`s where ``baghal main churi aur mooN peh ram ram`` is appropriate to use :)

In reply to Syed Ahmed : the vast famines that stalked the subcontinent, in which millions starved, vanished with the British. I would choose Indian and Pakistani fractiousness over British civility any day.

The best job of brainwashing that was ever done was the impression we subcontinentals have that somehow the British were civilized.

-arun gupta

Dear Temporal:

Your post on Durga puja is very authentic indeed, and I am touched as a Bengali. You have captured the Bengali emotion correctly. It is generally at the end of the festivities, people feel quite empty, as it is only natural that one feels that way when one`s beloved daughter goes back to her Sasural. Temporal, I really thank you from bottom of my heart for trying peace in the sub-continent. We do not have any hope unless we put people before any religion. Hope many more people see this way.

I wish you all happy Durga Puja. If you check on Calcutta online, you will see the work of local sculptors` beautiful works, although this year festivity is scaled down because of people`s suffering in devastating flood in some of the districts of WB. Also Jyoti Basu is becoming a nuisance and menace to WB.

Regards

cheraym

Satyavadi #

You are the real and true face of Hinduism.

We can criticize the treatment of minorities in our country (although this is small issue compared to overall) and that is our right as an INDEPENDENT people.(Independence from India):)

Anyway if you like K for Kafir, that is your choice, otherwise K is for ``Kutta`` or dog.

Sadism has no limit.

Since you are no God or Avtar, beware of hurling stones while in glass house.

Anyway I am impressed by your Liberalism all over India. Particularly in most recent history in Babri mosque fiasco, in Bombay riots, in Kashmir, in burning of churches, killing of priests and Muslims etc.

And we thank God that we have Shadhana Minhas in our country. Of your variety we have enough. But they are illiterate enough to be away from this board.

Pragmatix #4

I think we should send our few jehadist to you, in exchange for few sane Indians.

We cannot accomodate millions and millions of saffron brigade. Few thousands we can in exchange for few thousands Jehadist. (We are sending them in Hundreds anyhow):)